Talk:Bert and Ernie

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Random thoughts

It seems foolish to say that the characters reflect Jim and Frank's personalities, right after saying that they arbitrarily switched roles after a rehearsal. It also seems odd to lend so much weight to the "creators'" claims that there is no gay sub-text. Creators not only understate things like that to avoid controversy, they also write things into art of which they are not aware. The meaning of any artistic product goes well beyond what the creators' intended (or what they will admit intending) to what the viewer can plainly see. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.117.135.225 (talk) 02:09, 9 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"There is only one sketch in the classic sketches where Bert triumphs over Ernie when showing off his bottlecap collection to Ernie who finds bottlecaps very boring." What about when they play the drum game? Is that too new to be considered 'classic'? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.126.94.78 (talk) 02:56, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

When Henson died, Frank Oz commented that he "couldn't imagine doing Bert and Ernie without Jim", and indeed the duo have not appeared on any Muppets programs since.

I remember Bert and Ernie from after 1990. Did they just rerun old skits? I know Sesame Street does that a lot. Mike H 00:06, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Until about 1997(?), all the skits were repeats. -- user:zanimum

Ernie and Bert are two Muppets, are they? in't Muppets another show?

The Muppet Show is indeed a completely seperate show. However, any cartoon-like puppet created for a Jim Henson Production is considered a "Muppet". -- user:zanimum

dumped from Sesame Street: There is also a striking similarity between the characters of Bert and Ernie and those of Felix Ungar and Oscar Madison, from the Neil Simon play, the Odd Couple. In the play, and the movie and television series that were spun off, Felix and Oscar are divorcee friends living together in an apartment in New York City. Felix, like Bert is uptight and neat, while Oscar and Ernie are carefree and slobby.

Why do we need (see also Bert's sexuality) as a separate link? It seems to wildly over-emphasize that whole ephemral side issue, drawing extra attention to it. And, come tothink about it, what about Ernie's sexuality? (I feel stupid just typing that) - DavidWBrooks 01:58, 23 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It's a Wonderful Life

An anonymous editor added a statement that in the early 2000s the "creators" (I'm not sure of what) changed the long-running story that Bert & Ernie were not named after two secondary characters in the movie "It's a Wonderful Life." I have rolled back that addition because I can't find any source for it, but I could be wrong. This would be very interesting, if true - so anonymous editor, if you know better, please provide some backup so we can include it! - DavidWBrooks 19:08, 2 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Nick (Zanimum), you added this sentence: "Still, some think that this was said to protect Jim and Sesame Workshop legally." That sounds far-fetched to me. I always thought it was obvious that the "connection" between the Wonderful Life characters and the Sesame characters was a coincidence; I can't imagine Henson sitting around trying to name his new puppets, and saying, "Hey, let's name them after two minor characters in It's a Wonderful Life." Sesame producer Jon Stone said that it was a coincidence, and Occam's razor would suggest in this case that a coincidence is a more likely explanation than a conspiracy of silence. What do you think? Toughpigs 23:02, 1 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It all sounds far fetched to me too. It was just a comment by "Atlant" on talk:Bert. Since you're somewhat of an authority among fans, I'll take it out of the article. If anyone can find reference to this "conspiracy" on another site, we'll consider putting this back in, but not until then. -- user:zanimum

The Occam's razor argument is nonsense and incorrect. What is more likely, the co-incidence or that the film influenced the choice of names? It is the LATTER that is more likely. We are talking about "It's A Wonderful Life," not some obscure cult flick. There is no need to assume conspiracy (it is not illegal to use common names in television) or to presume that you know Jim Henson's thinking. The simpler explanation does tend to be the right one, so why complicate it with so much nonsense and speculation? [S. A. DeCaro, 10 Dec, 2007] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.86.33.87 (talk) 09:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I always thought it was obvious that the connection was there. Bert and Ernie in both It's A Wonderful Life and Sesame Street are good friends but with opposite personalities. I think they were based on more than the names. However, that said, find a source before you put it in the article.50.130.11.182 (talk) 18:30, 19 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism??

The edit from 3 August, about Ernie and Bert being Communist sleeper agents, strains credibility significantly. Can you provide a source? If not, we should remove the section. -- TimLynch 13:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bert's girlfriend

Seems to me, there was briefly (a few episodes) an female Muppet (that looked a little like Bert), who was Bert's sorta girlfriend. Can anyone remember this? is there a 'source' to back this? GoodDay 22:53, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Misconceptions about them being a gay couple.

Shouldn't this be included in the rumours section or perhaps elsewhere? It was quite a big thing at the time when people thought they were. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.178.245.87 (talk) 17:20, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This text is restored. An editor had tried to replace this text with a less sourced, more conspiratorial quote; in cleaning that up, the old text apparently was left out. / edg ☺ ★ 18:22, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Bernie und Ert

I just mentioned the "Bernie und Ert" parody. It is mentioned extensively on the German Wikipedia. There are also quite a number of episodes to be found on YouTube. samwaltz 03:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

A Wikipedia editor has suggested merging this article with Bert and Ernie. Could you please explain your rationale, or else the tag may be removed. [[Briguy52748 18:27, 3 November 2007 (UTC)]][reply]

I've removed the tags, there hasn't been any discussion since the tag was placed in September. Jauerback (talk) 13:42, 12 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This page is solely about their comedy act. They are treated as completely separate characters on Sesame Street and Play With Me Sesame, and are not entirely co-dependent on each other. -- Zanimum (talk) 14:36, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While both Bert and Ernie could be covered with separate articles, as it stands now, neither of the individual articles asserts enough nobility, depth of coverage, real-world coverage, or individualism to stand alone. Both characters are (currently) covered here much more adequatly than on their stand-alone pages. The two independent articles currently don't cite enough nobility, have enough depth, or include real-world coverage to stand as separate articles. The main article is concise and appropriatly covers each character. If their sections grow they can be spun-off into two unique articles on each character.

See Wikipedia:Notability (fiction) -- Mr Merge (talk) 08:58, 19 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Good Guys

I remember when Bert and Ernie came out. I saw it as a take off on (or maybe a steal of) "The Good Guys", starring Bob Denver, Herb Edelman, and Joyce Van Patten. Take a look sometime - http://classicshowbiz.blogspot.com/2009/05/good-guys-starring-bob-denver-pilot.html Although I remember the later, colored episodes. This show seemed closer to me than "The Odd Couple". Any comment?

Ref: http://www.tv.com/good-guys/show/960/summary.html

Jwkinraleigh (talk) 20:11, 26 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bert and Ernie marriage picture

Could we please remove that picture of Ernie in the wedding dress? I think it's demeaning to Ernie and Bert. Please remove that picture and the one from the page on Bert. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.17.87.8 (talk) 21:36, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You finding it demeaning is hardly a good reason to remove it. Just don't look at the picture/page. The image displays an image of a sourced rumor, about them being gay. CTJF83 chat 22:06, 22 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just recently (in recent edits), this image has been deleted as it is one of the many deriviative Muppet images (a.k.a, copyright image). trainfan01 talk 18:47, February 25, 2011 (UTC)

Ya, I'm working on fixing that. Thanks :) CTJF83 03:01, 26 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable source

Man, this article is gad-awful. Poor B&E; they so don't deserve an article like this. If anyone wants to be serious about improving it before I get around to it, here's a good source [1] from ABC News about all the silly rumors that have surrounded these guys. Christine (talk) 21:13, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Homosexuality?

Due to the significance of homosexuality rumors being spread about Bert and Ernie it might be wise to have a seperate section for it in the article instead of just putting it in the "Rumors and Misconceptions," section.-James Pandora Adams —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.126.18.254 (talk) 18:16, 9 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There can not be any "rumours", since Bert and Ernie are not living people. They are characters and only have any live in the screen. There are only fan fantasies, just as slash fiction with Harry Potter and Draco Malfoy.
- Er of course there can be rumours given the charactors aren't involved in making them, whether or not they're real people is irrelevant, their implied sexuality is created by the script writers and designers not the fabric they're made from.86.173.209.74 (talk) 20:50, 7 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - There cannot be "rumours". It is either canon or not. Either it comes from official creators - and then they ARE, or it comes from a fan fiction - and then they ARE NOT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.143.74.51 (talk) 12:52, 26 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that simple. Regardless of the canonical status, the characters have meaning and power as images of a gay couple. The New Yorker reflects this with their forthcoming cover. It is not simply rumor, but popular culture.

You seem to be confusing satire with "meaning and power"; there is a difference. Regardless of anything the New Yorker may have done, CTW effectively ended any purported "rumors" quite some time ago. Federales (talk) 18:51, 28 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any relevance to the comment about Kermit and Miss Piggy being in a heterosexual relationship in this context? That statement is about a different show entirely with different intentions - moreover, in the era of "MeToo" and given Kermit's resistance to her advances, she's a massive sexual harasser. They may have a relation ship in the movies and later shows, but in the context of The Muppet Show, calling their relationship a heterosexual relationship would serve to normalize harassment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.60.108.210 (talk) 16:03, 5 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"In-Universe" Style?

This article has virtually no "in-universe" style writing that I can see. Maybe it has since been rewritten, but in any case I vote to remove that criticism. Uranographer (talk) 18:01, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

considering that there are now 2 extragalactic neutrinos named bert and ernie, we need to be sure this article is not written in an "in universe" style, and definitely not an "in galaxy" style, which would be incorrect in 2 dimensions:)(mercurywoodrose)99.157.205.119 (talk) 19:02, 27 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 15:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ernie and Bert → Bert and Ernie – Surely they are almost always refered to as "Bert and Ernie", not "Ernie and Bert"? Therefore, WP:COMMONNAME, even if there's no official order. It's also alphabetical, if that's a reason. If I'm wrong I apologise but I've only ever known them to be refered to as "Bert and Ernie". But the article itself calls them "Bert and Ernie" 11 times, compared to "Ernie and Bert" just twice (not including the article title). When I search on Google(.co.uk), I get 952,000 results for B&E, and 259,000 results for E&B. –anemone projectors– 14:12, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:COMMONNAME and the A-Z order of article titles. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 17:59, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support per sources, commonname & alphabetical order. GoodDay (talk) 22:39, 11 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Even a seemingly trivial reordering like this should be carried out when it complies more closely with WP:COMMONNAME. There is also, for example, an album titled [http://www.amazon.com/Bert-Ernies-Greatest-Sesame-Street/dp/B000002BF1 Bert & Ernie's Greatest Hits], which suggests that this is a more correct usage. bd2412 T 15:25, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support. In additional to the above, this n-gram shows there's been a distinct preference for B&E over E&B since 1990. Egsan Bacon (talk) 02:20, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support, seems to be the "official" order: [2] McPhail (talk) 13:40, 16 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Are they gay? No they are not but 1 guy says they are.

Regarding Ernie and Bert's relationship; a fantastic answer from one person.

https://www.queerty.com/exclusive-bert-ernie-couple-finally-answer-20180916

Interview with one of Ernie and Bert's major writers of many years who is also openly gay. He discusses his experiences at sesame street and the context he was working under when developing Ernie and Bert in the integral 80s era. (Misplaced comment by 68.201.248.231, moved to appropriate section)

Mister Jim Henson never created Bert and Ernie as gay people. They were just two people meant as fun charachters for the kids. And now one of the hunderd of writers claims they are gay? I find it not wikipedia worthy if one guy who is not really believeable, (one of the Henson's or Frank Oz would be a 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 times more believeable). And since when does 1 writer who didn't make the charachters decide that they are gay? I request the paragraph to be removed or either being put in the triva section. Scenarioschrijver20 (talk) 10:00, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Saltzman was an important script writer for Sesame Street for a long time, which makes the interview with him in Queerty interesting. I do not object to making this part of a "trivia" section if this is preferred by others here, but it is worthy of mention in this article anyway. The Wiki ghost (talk) 11:02, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I still think that Wikipedia is not the place to put stuff that has been said in one interview with one guy who doesn't know how the characters were meant. Scenarioschrijver20 (talk) 11:47, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

https://nypost.com/2018/09/18/bert-and-ernie-are-gay-lovers-sesame-street-writer-reveals/ ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:50, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Now that both the company that makes Sesame Street and Frank Oz say that what Saltzman said is pure nonsense. I think it's a good moment to end the discussion. Scenarioschrijver20 (talk) 09:37, 19 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I don't think Wikipedia needs to be in the business of outing puppets! GliderMaven (talk) 19:20, 14 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal (2024)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To merge Bert (Sesame Street) and Ernie (Sesame Street) into Bert and Ernie for short text, context, overlap; they are best known as a duo, even though they have some separate work. Klbrain (talk) 19:07, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that Bert (Sesame Street) and Ernie (Sesame Street) should be merged into Bert and Ernie. The information on each of their articles could easily be added to this article. Secondary sources do not significantly cover Bert or Ernie separately.
Just to double-check, I did a quick search to see if sources cover Bert independently. The most I can find is that Bert has collaborated with One Direction and with Zachary Levi, and that he's a fan of Olivia Rodrigo, apparently. Clearly not enough for an article.
— Vigilant Cosmic Penguin 🐧 (talk | contribs) 23:38, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Thais article is about their comedy act. While the are treated as seperate characters on Sesame Street and Play With Me Sesame.Magical Golden Whip (talk) 23:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This article covers the pair as fictional characters as well, see the Reception and analysis for instance. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 12:07, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Honestly, I feel a Redirect of both would have sufficed, but for subjects this big a merge discussion is justified. I definitely feel these two receive a lot of coverage as a pair, but not individually. It is more succinct and useful for readers to be taken to an article that covers both of them comprehensively rather than the current setup. Has one ever considered Magneton? Pokelego999 (talk) 12:09, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

support Big Slosh (talk) 18:01, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 19:27, 5 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]