Jump to content

Talk:Attacks in Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1

More incidents

There is now a whole series of incidents of fires and explosions that may result from sabotage or attacks on Russian targets in Russia, occupied Ukraine, and Transnistria. There’s a separate Attack on Belgorod article (why is it separate?), and here’s a Twitter thread with a list of others (not comprehensive, I think): first tweet. Time to expand this article, I think. —Michael Z. 14:46, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Related: 2022 rail war in Belarus. —Michael Z. 14:49, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Sabotage campaign in the Russian Federation

 —Michael Z. 20:56, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

 —Michael Z. 19:56, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

 —Michael Z. 16:34, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 15 April 2022

NOT MOVED
Proposed title rejected. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 17:01, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

April 2022 Belgorod and Bryansk attacks → April 2022 Belgorod and Bryansk explosions – Using the word "attacks" violates WP:NPOV as the attack claim is denied by Ukraine. Knowledgekid87 (talk) 20:02, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

I have no opinion on April being included or not. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 22:09, 15 April 2022 (UTC)
There have been other confirmed and alleged attacks and explosions near Belgorod or in Belgorod and Briansk oblasts, e.g., the Attack on Belgorod. I also recall an earlier fire suspected to be caused by Ukrainian special forces, and a Russian ballistic missile that fell short, near a highway. So April or some other specifier might be helpful. —Michael Z. 14:24, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
Agreed – or maybe even a merge to a single 2022 explosions in Belgorod article? Buttons0603 (talk) 14:32, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
@Jim Michael, Mzajac, and Buttons0603: We can always hammer this out down the line, right now the page needs to be moved to remove the loaded "attacks" from the title. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 19:14, 18 April 2022 (UTC)
Well Ukraine seems to have argued that there were attacks in at least some cases, but that they were false flags. So "attack" seems appropriate. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 16:17, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
As I said in the deletion discussion, Belgorod is not the only oblast to have been attacked. Kursk and Bryansk have both been subject to alleged bombings, and the most significant attack occurred in Bryansk Oblast. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 16:16, 24 April 2022 (UTC)
Oppose There is video evidence showing two attack helicopters firing projectiles at a fuel depot on 1 April 2022. Whether it was Ukraine or a false flag operation by Russia, some sort of attack may have occurred. Nythar (talk) 22:22, 26 April 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sources

Re: recent edits by User:Volunteer Marek, User:187.39.133.201 Is there a decision that bans all the links to TASS, RIA Novosti or other Russian state news agencies? Of course, I agree that these agencies are tools of Russian state propaganda. However, it seems strange to say that any Russian state media is unreliable when it comes to statements made by Russian officials. The statements themselves might be truthful or misleading, but this is not the question here. What's important is the fact that a certain governor claimed that a certain event happened, and, ironically, these agencies seem the most accurate source of this type of statements. VanHelsing.16 (talk) 19:34, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Per WP:RSP#TASS, TASS is a reliable source concerning official statements of the Russian government.Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:17, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
Same for RIA Novosti, as far as I see. I'm going to reinstall the statements then, adding additional sources if possible VanHelsing.16 (talk) 17:10, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

The problem with this approach is that we end up including absurd Russian propaganda as "statements from Russian government". The Russian government, through TASS and RIA Novosti, makes a lot of ridiculous claims and there's absolutely no reason to include these unless they're particularly notable or if they've been discussed in other reliable sources. Otherwise this becomes a loophole (WP:GAME) in our RS policy.

I recall this happening in 2014 with the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 where some users tried to do a run around our WP:RS policy by putting in idiotic Russian conspiracy theories but it was ok, you see, because it was "attributed". And this was of course done with the purpose of giving exposure to these "alternative views" (sic). That's how this shit works. "We have to include all opinions even if they're patently absurd". No. This is just a sneaky way to circumvent our content policies. Per WP:ONUS "verifiability does not guarantee inclusion". Volunteer Marek 22:27, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

We're not talking about any conspiracy theories or even any "views" here. It's only about brief statements that have been reported by other agencies as well (Reuters, Al Jazeera, RFE/RL etc) and there is no major difference between Russian or Western coverage of these statements. However, some of these statements were reported with a 1-day lag in the Western media (thus, by excluding TASS from the references, two factual errors are introduced into the article: 23 April is incorrectly changed for 24 April, and 30 April for 1 May). Some of the statements were not covered by the Western media, although the primary source is always the same: governors' Telegram channels. Basically, nearly all the discussed sources contain a phrase like "governor of X region said on his Telegram channel", whether it's republished by TASS or by Reuters. So what's the difference who republished it? VanHelsing.16 (talk) 23:43, 13 May 2022 (UTC)
The problem isn't that we need to give "equal weight" to Russian claims, but rather that official position of the Russian government is notable. Even if all these events are Russian false-flags as an excuse to invade Ukraine, the Kremlin's policy on the subject still needs to be recorded because the government is reacting to something happening in their own country. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:49, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 1 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Move and Merge. There is consensus to merge this article with Millerovo air base attack, April 2022 Belgorod and Bryansk attacks and attack on Belgorod into a single article called Attacks in Russia during the 2022 invasion of Ukraine as per Mawer10's suggestions. Until someone takes the initiative and merges them together, the article is moved to 2022 Western Russia attacks per nomination, as an improvement over current title. Extended discussion on a merge proposal may be carried out in the above section. If consensus on whether or not to merge the articles changes, that should be respected, irrespective of this close. (closed by non-admin page mover) —CX Zoom[he/him] (let's talk • {C•X}) 06:19, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

April 2022 Belgorod and Bryansk attacks → 2022 Western Russia attacks – As someone else pointed out in the last proposed move, there have also been explosions/attacks in other oblasts of Russia, particularly Kursk and at least one incidents in Voronezh. I think that this article would have to be renamed to "2022 Western Russia attacks" to fully capture this page's scope.*

*This may not be the most correct title as there was also an explosion in Ussuriysk, Siberia, but it's the best I can do. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 17:12, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

I would support such a change so as to provide a better overview of the subject. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 12:50, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
I support merging the articles April 2022 Belgorod and Bryansk attacks and attack on Belgorod and renaming them to "2022 Attacks on Belgorod and Bryansk", or something similar. 187.39.133.201 (talk) 18:53, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Dawsongfg (talk) 17:29, 15 May 2022 (UTC)Strongly oppose if it means merge all of them into one. Dawsongfg (talk) 23:24, 7 May 2022 (UTC)Dawsongfg (talk) 17:29, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
Dawsongfg, do you just jump into merge discussions and vote oppose for the sake of it? Super Ψ Dro 20:15, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
No. Dawsongfg (talk) 20:36, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Support rename and merge clearly an improvement. Super Ψ Dro 20:15, 8 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Support merge and rename - too little information for separate articles, and clearly part of a wider operation. Applodion (talk) 09:26, 9 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment. Not all of them are "attacks" as the title implies. They could be accidents or sabotage by Russian people. "Also on 25 April, there was an explosion at an airbase in Ussuriysk in the Far East of Russia". I do not think anyone seriously suggests this is work by Ukrainians. It is very frequent in Russia that someone sets a fire in a warehouse to hide that a lot of goods were stolen. My very best wishes (talk) 02:43, 14 May 2022 (UTC)
Change vote, support but change the merging name to "2022 Russia fires" or something like that, at least until we figure out who's doing this. Dawsongfg (talk) 17:28, 15 May 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment. @Dawsongfg: and @My very best wishes: There is already an article about the mysterious incidents in Russia, see 2022 Russian mystery fires. Incidents that the Russians claimed to be Ukrainian attacks can stay in the current article, while mysterious incidents stay in the article 2022 Russian mystery fires. For now these articles can be separated, but a future fusion of both may be possible, but now I think it's not the time yet. Mawer10 (talk) 13:25, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
    I've PRODed that article. It serves no use other than a duplicate and POVFORK of this article.
    Unconfirmed theories are not necessarily "conspiracy theories" and portraying them as "mystery fires" isn't a professional term. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:41, 16 May 2022 (UTC)


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Merger proposal 1 May 2022

Merge Attack on Belgorod into April 2022 Belgorod and Bryansk attacks.

This subject now clearly transcends the geographical and chronological restrictions in the title: numerous other attacks have occurred outside these two oblasts and outside of the month of April (the arbitrary “Background” section lists a March incident), and there is no reason for the other article to exist separately from this one. The article should also be renamed. —Michael Z. 16:41, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Notable individual events such as Attack on Belgorod can still have their own articles regardless of the scope of this one, so I don't see why it should necessarily be merged in. This page should serve as more of a campaign-type overview like the offensive articles, which did not have all the individual battle articles merged in either. ansh.666 18:07, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
Support merge. All part of the same series of attacks. EkoGraf (talk) 14:34, 4 May 2022 (UTC)
  1. Support, this is an improvement. Mawer10 (talk) 16:00, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

The article has been merged. Super Ψ Dro 21:59, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Short description

The Short description of cross-border incidents in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine was too long (at 62 characters) and started with a lower case letter. I have thus shortened it to Reported cross-border incidents which is shorter per WP:SDSHORT, starts correctly per WP:SDFORMAT and follows on from the article title to form a reasonable summary per WP:SDNOTDEF. It is, clearly, not yet a perfect SD, so please work to improve it — GhostInTheMachine talk to me 15:41, 15 June 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 February 2023

Change “Sudhza” to “Sudzha” in “On 2 November, 5 civilians, including 3 children, were reportedly injured after shells hit the village of Guyevo, Sudhza district, several private houses and stores were also damaged on the attack, the village was also left without electricity as power lines were either destroyed or damaged following the explosions.” Jhvhfhv (talk) 04:13, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

 Done – small jars tc 17:27, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 June 2023

Under the subheading May 2023, it states "On 7 May, an drone..." the phrase An drone should be changed to A drone GhoulzRulez (talk) 15:58, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done Clyde H. Mapping (talk) 16:46, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

Correction

Can someone change "an Ukrainian" to "a Ukrainian", please. Jenny Jankel (talk) 23:44, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 20:28, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Merger proposal 24 May 2022

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was keep. HappyWith (talk) 22:10, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

Merge Millerovo air base attack into 2022 Western Russia attacks.

These articles deal with the same subject, there is no need to be separate. Mawer10 (talk) 16:19, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

  • Weak support I am not entirely sure, but I believe it'd be good to have all of these grouped into one single article. The level of notability between Millerovo and any other event listed here is superior only slightly we could say. But my vote may change as other people participate here. Super Ψ Dro 21:35, 24 May 2022 (UTC)
Comment: More can be said without. 96.35.226.161 (talk) 23:25, 27 May 2022 (UTC)
Oppose This article covert the first ever proven Ukrianian attack on Russian soil during the war and the succesfull use of Tochka missiles on a airfield. Must be kept.Mr.User200 (talk) 14:11, 4 June 2022 (UTC)
  • Oppose on the basis that the Millerovo air base attack, uniquely, was outright confirmed by Ukraine, rather than denying any role in it or refusing to confirm or deny. Mupper-san (talk) 19:26, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
Result is? Dawsongfg (talk) 02:27, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose The Millerovo shelling has enough material for a stand-alone article and it was an open attack at a military target, different in character than most of the deniable campaign of attacks at strategic targets. —Michael Z. 13:22, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
Oppose per Mupper-san, also there hasn't ben consensus since too long. Dawsongfg (talk) 00:46, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
Strong Oppose - Merge proposal should be aware that Millerovo air base attack had an AfD back in March, which had a keep result. Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Millerovo air base attack. Elijahandskip (talk) 01:28, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

An Image

https://www.slovoidilo.ua/2022/07/03/novyna/svit/obstrily-byelhorodi-odyn-budynkiv-vpala-chastyna-rakety-rosijskoho-pancyra

https://news.obozrevatel.com/ukr/russia/na-mistsi-vibuhu-v-bilgorodi-znajshli-chastini-zrk-pantsir-takogo-ozbroennya-zsu-ne-mayut-zmi.htm

https://espreso.tv/ulamok-raketi-z-rosiyskogo-zrpk-pantsir-vpav-na-bagatopoverkhivku-v-belgorodi

https://times.kharkiv.ua/2022/07/03/rosiyani-vbivayut-ukrayintsiv-navit-u-sebe-vdoma/

I'd like to add this image somewhere, but I think it would be better if a more experienced editor does it if needed. Not sure how true this image is.. but just in case I decided to write about this image.. plus i belive this is actually true (This is old info by the way) Random Fan Camping (talk) 12:19, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

@Random Fan Camping:, the real problem with including images from websites is that they are usually copyrighted. There is a policy for Non-free content, but I’m not sure if the inclusion of these images qualifies as fair use. It looks for me like they can qualify but this should really be discussed with an admin. Hope that helps. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 13:50, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
Yes, Myself i believe that this image are true.. but I'm not going to discuss this with the admins, moderators or any other staff because I don't know exactly who the admins, moderators or other staff are.. also I think this image is not copyrighted because it's an image from a telegram channel. but i'm also not going to add this image since i'm not really expirienced editor and i should not only add image but add more text in that case so.. Random Fan Camping (talk) 14:08, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
@Random Fan Camping:, you have cited reliable sources so I don’t see a reason to suggest they aren’t real. However, just letting you know, wikimedia commons only allows uploads if you created the files yourself or if the creator has explicitly released it under a free license. Those images are considered non-free media and can be uploaded directly to Wikipedia as fair use. I agree that it should be done by a more experienced user. -🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦Україні🇺🇦Героям🇺🇦Слава🇺🇦(talk)🇺🇦 19:51, 30 September 2022 (UTC)

unreliable sources?

there are a few russian and ukrainian sources here, someone should look into them and see if theyre reliable or not, as some of these cases might just be russian propaganda. SnoopyBird (talk) 18:15, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

How did the drones get into Russia?

For the December 5, 2022 attacks, how did Ukrainian drones get hundreds of miles into Russian territory? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 173.88.246.138 (talk) 00:17, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I mean, this is not the place to ask general questions about the war (there's other places for that), but, i mean, they could've launched it from Kharkiv and it flew from there into Russia, OR sabotage teams launched it from inside Russia, we never really know. SnoopyBird (talk) 20:01, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
The Tupolev Tu-141 transonic UAV weighs 6 tons. It is vanishingly unlikely that it was smuggled into Russia. Safe to assume they just flew from Ukraine to their targets hundreds of kilometres into Russia.  —Michael Z. 15:15, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Split section

If Millerovo air base attack got an article, the strikes at Ryazan and Engels definitively deserve one. We have a long article on Russian Wikipedia [1]. Super Ψ Dro 02:46, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

The need is borderline in both cases. The Millerovo article was created when it was the only attack in Russia, while this one was created later, after two or three mysterious attacks, and ended up being the catch-all.
So I say be my guest and create it if there is more to add, but this article still serves as a valuable summary, so leave them here too.
(A map would really enhance this article.)  —Michael Z. 15:06, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
I don't think Millerovo was ever really notable and specially now that Ukraine has carried out several other attacks against Russia. I would support a merge of the article. The attacks on Ryazan and Engels however are particularly notable in my opinion, if I remember correctly both were around 600km away from the nearest Ukrainian-controlled territory, Engels was hit not one but THREE times, several Russian soldiers died, and quite amusingly, Russian air defenses shot down one of their own fighter jets as a result of paranoia in the region [2]. Super Ψ Dro 00:25, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

More explosions in February and March 2023

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-ukraine-drone-attacks-1784676 Joreberg (talk) 18:38, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

22 May RU vs RU

What appears to be Russian vs Russian armed conflict in Western Russia today seems like it's relevant for this article. Boud (talk) 14:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC) The main article is 2023 Belgorod Oblast attack. Boud (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 May 2023

"The Russian Volunteer Corps, a far-right Russian nationalist group fighting against the Russian government, claimed responsibility for a brief incursion into neighboring Bryansk Oblast in March 2023."

This section is miss leading. The Russian Volunteer corps is a unit based in Ukraine as part of the Ukrainian foreign legion. We should substitute the Wikipedia description of this unit in here.

"a Russian nationalist paramilitary unit based in Ukraine." https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Russian_Volunteer_Corps

The section would now be clear that this is a Ukrainian based unit, the current description would miss lead people in to thinking this unit originated in the Russian Federation.

"The Russian Volunteer Corps, a Russian nationalist paramilitary unit based in Ukraine, claimed responsibility for a brief incursion into neighboring Bryansk Oblast in March 2023."

You can find information about them both on their own wiki pages and also in UK reporting. It is clear they crossed from Ukraine in to Russia. This is actually the second time.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/03/04/russian-neo-nazi-hooligan-who-led-anti-putin-militia-across/ Liger404 (talk) 01:59, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

 Already done It looks like this article no longer describes the Russian Volunteer Corps, which I think addresses your issue about the misleading description. RFZYNSPY talk 21:13, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Perpetrators

Listing the FSB as one of the perpetrators (claimed) is akin to saying 9/11 was an inside job. It's glaringly obvious that the Ukrainians are launching attacks as retaliation for Russian bombing. This is pistachio-level IQ, seriously. 2601:85:C100:46C0:C8AA:52EF:B3C8:C8FC (talk) 19:29, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Attacks_in_Russia_during_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_1&oldid=1241196793"