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Gender fluid, use of "they"

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Is there a source to confirm their identification as genderfluid? See this diff showing unsourced changes to the article. ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:32, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Update: The unsourced claim has been removed, but "they" still appears throughout the article. ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:45, 21 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I can't find any internet sources that clarify Aja's out-of-drag gender identity or pronouns--male, genderfluid or otherwise. Where did this assumption come from for the article? Also, would it be better to refer to Aja as she when discussing her activities in drag, such as her time on RPDR? The sentences where Aja is called they read strangely to me, as Aja (in drag) is exclusively referred to as she on the show, in news media, and on most social media. I would say that in the Personal life section, it might be more appropriate to use Jay (or Rivera) rather than Aja in combination with out-of-drag pronouns. But otherwise (including in the Music section), my suggestion would be to use Aja and she. Armadillopteryxtalk 10:08, 23 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Armadillopteryx: Agreed. ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:20, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Armadillopteryx: Have you changed your mind, given Reference #18? ---Another Believer (Talk) 18:12, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I had understood that to refer to her out-of-drag pronouns, but do you think it's also for when she is (they are?) in drag? Now I'm not sure. Armadillopteryxtalk 18:18, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I'm not sure they prefer different pronouns based on whether they are in drag or not, but I suppose anything is possible. Since the statement was made in drag, perhaps we just say, "Aja identifies..." and not "Rivera identifies..." ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:08, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'd be fine with that, but it would also mean changing all feminine pronouns to they/them/theirs. If that's really how Aja intends to be identified, it's obviously what we should do. However, would it be better to search for a source that makes explicit whether she was referring to herself in drag, out of drag or both with that statement? My line of thinking is that virtually all sourcing refers to Aja as she, as does everyone on the show, and she's never indicated that that was inaccurate. It would be strange to use different pronouns than all references (and RPDR itself) without a good, reliable source that makes it absolutely clear. Armadillopteryxtalk 19:19, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, I wish there was more sourcing to help clarify and confirm. I don't feel too strongly, and I was mostly concerned before, when there was no confirmation about identify whatsoever. At least now there is video of Aja confirming a preference for they/them/their. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:21, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
IMO it would be safer to continue referring to Aja as she and Jay as they in the absence of a more clear-cut source indicating that the genderfluid pronouns also extend to when Aja is in drag. But perhaps others will feel differently or will interpret the sourced video as you did instead of as I did. Maybe @Umimmak: could weigh in? Armadillopteryxtalk 19:35, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah it's unfortunate the interview wasn't more explicit as to whether Rivera uses they or whether that also applies to the persona Aja. I added it as a ref as it was the only one I knew of off hand where pronouns were explicitly mentioned. I think it's probably safe to use she for the drag character and they for Rivera. The official website for Aja seems to use she, e.g. [1] this queen will leave you mesmerized with her precision, wit and eclecticism. Hopefully a more explicit source will come forth eventually. Umimmak (talk) 19:41, 24 February 2018 (UTC) Update: I also just re-watched the first episode of Season 9 and Aja says "Aja is banji, her drag style is very the streets of Tokyo meets the streets of Brooklyn. She's cute. She's dangerous" So I think it's safe to use "she" to refer to Rivera's drag persona but "they" to Rivera. Umimmak (talk) 20:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Current pronouns

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Since Aja's announcement about wanting to be known as a queer artist rather than a drag queen last month, secondary sources have begun to use singular they to refer to Aja also when in drag [2][3][4]. Should we follow suit? Armadillopteryxtalk 09:27, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, queer does not mean gender neutral or non-binary, but we should follow sourcing and ideally include mention of their identification. ---Another Believer (Talk) 13:38, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that queer doesn't mean gender-neutral or non-binary, but it's not because of that term that I note the change; it's because Aja herself/themself reinforced a desire to be known by gender-neutral pronouns together with the announcement about being a queer artist (see Tweets such as this). Around that time news items like the three above started to use to singular they even when referring to Aja in drag. Those three sources are currently in the article. We also still have the sourced statement that Aja goes by they out of drag (referenced by the video Umimmak found in February); that hasn't left the article. Aja was in drag in the video when she/they made that statement, but whereas our best interpretation above was that it probably referred only to Jay, now I lean toward thinking it also refers to Aja. Armadillopteryxtalk 14:12, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm comfortable with you moving forward with updating the article as you see fit, and letting others review and discuss here if there are concerns. Per the Metro source above, I think the article should mention gender neutrality specifically. ---Another Believer (Talk) 00:03, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I've changed the pronouns. I agree that the article should mention Aja's gender explicitly, but IMO it already does: the Personal life section says, Rivera lived as a trans woman for a year at age 18, later coming to identify as genderqueer after learning about non-binary identities.[1] Do you think it is better stated another way? Armadillopteryxtalk 22:27, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To improve clarity and flow, I've done some reorganization of that section, including grouping the pronoun sentence with the gender identity sentence. Armadillopteryxtalk 23:21, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Street, Mikelle (July 3, 2018). "Why 'Drag Race' Alum Aja Is No Longer Using the Term 'Drag Queen'". them. Condé Nast. Archived from the original on July 4, 2018. Retrieved July 4, 2018. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |dead-url= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)

Reference for Ty's name

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Has anyone got a reliable secondary source for Aja's boyfriend's name? The Lyft article only mentions his Twitter handle. Earlier I added Aja's Facebook as a reference strictly to cite the name. Now that reference has been removed, presumably because the other info in the sentence was already sourced by secondary coverage. If we don't get Ty's name from another place, though, I suppose it will have to go. Armadillopteryxtalk 20:18, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There's reliable coverage stating he goes by Lizard Lemon, but I don't see anything with his real name. --Kbabej (talk) 20:25, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
More to the point, are boyfriends notable/encyclopedic enough for inclusion, even if there were reliable sources? Umimmak (talk) 20:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think an encyclopedic person's significant other is relevant to mention in the "Personal life" section. It seems to be standard practice, too. And in this case, the boyfriend was an integral part of a newsworthy incident involving the article's subject. Armadillopteryxtalk 21:09, 24 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think it would be better to leave it out until/unless he shows up again as significant. Gleeanon409 (talk) 00:12, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Citing new video

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There doesn't seem to be any secondary coverage for the video yet. What about using the YouTube video itself as a citation (just to prove its existence) until someone reports on it? I figure since it's only in the table anyway ... Armadillopteryxtalk 01:34, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Edit: I put it in for now (since WP:PRIMARY sources can be used to cite themselves), but feel free to RV. Armadillopteryxtalk 01:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Primary sourcing seems ok until secondary coverage can be found. ---Another Believer (Talk) 01:58, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly useful interview, could be incorporated into article

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Street, Mikelle (July 3, 2018). "Why 'Drag Race' Alum Aja Is No Longer Using the Term 'Drag Queen'". them.

Umimmak (talk) 00:12, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ha, seems like we had the same thought at the same time, as I just added some info from that source :-D Armadillopteryxtalk 00:52, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Shall we add "queer artist" to the lead, then, as well as Category:Queer artists? ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:45, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Umimmak and Armadillopteryx: Pinging just in case, since I've made subsequent edits to this talk page and you might not see bump in watchlist. ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:47, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I vote yes. Armadillopteryxtalk 21:23, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Me, too, so I'll go ahead and add while we continue discussing. ---Another Believer (Talk) 21:56, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure what I think, but just to play devil's advocate: a lot of secondary sources refer to Aja as a drag queen and I think it would be ideal if a secondary source, i.e., not an interview, referred to Aja as a queer artist before changing. In a broadly similar vein, Lypsinka does not identify as a drag queen, acquiescing to the description of "drag artist" if necessary, but the article still has the category Category:American drag queens, for comparison. Trying to think of other articles for people who don't identify as drag queens but who are called such by sources... Umimmak (talk) 22:45, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind changing "drag queen" to "drag artist", but I also acknowledge more sources refer to Aja as a "drag queen". However, re: "queer", I think adding brief mention and keeping Category:Queer artists are appropriate because Aja has self-identified in this way. --Another Believer (Talk) 00:10, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Name change

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---Another Believer (Talk) 20:20, 14 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Subject's Tweets about this article

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I've discovered the reason for the spate of IP and single-use account edits we've gotten on this article in the past 24 hours. Aja has been Tweeting about it:

  • "Thank you to whomever edited my Wikipedia page. Now if we can get them to remove the (drag queen) part lol / Any who’s who edited it?" [5]
  • "Who the [redacted] edited back my Wikipedia to all the wrong info, what the actual [redacted]" [6]
  • "It’s like are y’all for real lol someone went on it and fixed all of it up and then I saw it just now and it’s like stuff that’s not even true lol like I’m not Libyan and it says that, also I was not adopted by a single mother" [7]
  • "Fix my [redacted] like for real" [includes screenshot of article history] [8]
  • "My mom is Egyptian-American and my dad is Nigerian-American. / I’m not a drag queen anymore. / Like do I need to make a list of things wrong with it 💀" [9]
  • "I was raised by a Puerto Rican adopted mother and my Trinidadian father was... there ish. Until I was 5" [10]
  • "I forgot to mention the worst part is that my dead name is on Wikipedia. Also it’s not even my real dead name. Tragedy" [11]

Thoughts on how to proceed? Previously, we have used Aja's Tweets to source a limited amount of personal info here, though it was one of those Tweets that claimed they were Libyan [12], which they now say is incorrect in the above Tweets.

Pinging: Another Believer, Umimmak. Armadillopteryxtalk 01:43, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Armadillopteryx, Thanks for the heads up. I've asked for additional feedback at WikiProject RuPaul's Drag Race and Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Aja_(drag_queen). ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:19, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Another Believer: Thanks. I've made a couple of bold (sourced) changes in light of this, though I'm happy to have those modified or reverted if other input suggests a better solution. It is worth noting that, upon investigating the sentence about Aja's mother, I discovered that neither of the two inline citations after it supported the claim, so I removed it entirely.
Also, it appears that at some point in the past hour, Aja deleted last year's Tweets about their ethnicity. Naturally, the archived versions are still visible. Armadillopteryxtalk 02:59, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Gleeanon409: is this something that you can help with or offer input on? MPS1992 (talk) 22:51, 29 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • I know almost nothing about Aja but I’ll add this to my watchlist. I can offer general opinions though as they come up.
    • As a suggestion maybe see if someone from OTRS or elsewhere can reach out to Aja on how to interact with the article in a more constructive way, whatever that could be.
    • concerns about the publishing of legal names can be emailed to info-en-q@wikimedia.org
    • If anyone needs something maybe start a talk page task list and I can help that way. Gleeanon409 (talk) 00:29, 30 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Reopening this discussion because I notice a certain parallel with Blair St. Clair. Blair has made it inequivocal her desire to not be referred as her legal name and the article doesn't even mention it. Same happens with Gia Gunn. Peppermint's only mentions it in the "Personal life" section. In the case of Aja, it appears in the infobox section at the beginning of the article. What would you say about removing it from there? I recall that the policy about trans people favors only mentioning their pre-transition name if they had notability under that name (Caitlin Jenner and the Wachowskis are the clearest examples). So, what would you say about removing it from the box? And about the "personal life" section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Not A Superhero (talk • contribs) 02:53, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not A Superhero, Today an IP editor removed from infobox. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:08, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Page title

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Given recent coverage of the fact that Aja no longer identifies as a drag queen, some of which is presently used as sourcing in this article, should we change the title of this page to something else? If so, what? Armadillopteryxtalk 00:03, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Updates:
Armadillopteryxtalk 07:46, 27 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How about "Aja (entertainer)" Not A Superhero (talk) 07:53, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Seems good to me. Gleeanon409 (talk) 08:27, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 January 2020

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 13:57, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Aja (drag queen) → Aja (entertainer) – The subject to the article has been distancing themselves from the "drag queen" label and focusing on a music career and burlesque performances. Statements in twitter and interviews about the desire to no longer being a drag queen are provided below. Not A Superhero (talk) 17:43, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]


All right, I decided to be bold and propose the move. Aja has tweeted about this:

  • "Thank you to whomever edited my Wikipedia page. Now if we can get them to remove the (drag queen) part lol / Any who’s who edited it?" [13]
  • "My mom is Egyptian-American and my dad is Nigerian-American. / I’m not a drag queen anymore. / Like do I need to make a list of things wrong with it 💀" [14] (Emphasis added by me)

And also mentioned it during an interview with Rolling Stone: https://web.archive.org/web/20191029032829/https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/aja-rpdr-queer-artist-rap-star-box-office-album-790747/

Currently, Aja (entertainer) is a redirect to Aja (actress), a pornographic actress in the nineties whose article is proposed for deletion. In case that article is kept, I guess a disambiguation page may be necessary. Not A Superhero (talk) 17:50, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I support this move and the creation of the aforementioned disambiguation page. I would also be open to alternatives like Aja (rapper) or Aja (musician) should someone feel strongly, but I would prefer the most general term (entertainer). Armadillopteryxtalk 18:11, 11 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Just a note: plenty of RS refer to the subject as a musician and rapper. Much, if not most, of the most recent sourcing also refers to them as a "former drag queen" or otherwise mentions they no longer do drag. Armadillopteryxtalk 14:59, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. A drag queen pretty much by definition is an entertainer, per BLP we should be a bit sensitive to Aja’s wishes. Gleeanon409 (talk) 10:34, 13 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment I still haven't made up my mind on the overall, but I am definitely opposed to the subject of the article have any control over the article including the disambiguation term.Naraht (talk) 13:18, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • The essence of BLP surely includes the concept of avoiding needless harm, by editorial choices, and skewing conservatively if we believe the subject feels a certain way.
      • Here we have a case of several word options, coupled with the belief the subject finds being labeled, for life, on the world’s number one source of information, as a drag queen derogatory. I think there’s little reason to fight against that change. Gleeanon409 (talk) 13:38, 17 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Category

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Resolved

@Dekimasu: Do you mind moving Category:Aja (drag queen) albums as well? ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:24, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed, I think. Dekimasuよ! 15:49, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Dekimasu, Thank you! ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:54, 20 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Drag Race royalty Aja opens up about her gender journey as a proud trans woman"

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---Another Believer (Talk) 01:51, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Legendary

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Aja is participating in season 3 of Legendary:

https://www.out.com/television/2022/4/27/legendary-season-3-new-judge-guests-air-date-and-everything-else#media-gallery-media-4

---Another Believer (Talk) 15:18, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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