Talk:AUKUS/Archive 1

Which English variant to use for this article?

Which English variant to use for this article? Either of American, Australian or British English would be justifiable on a national ties basis. But I think it should be "Commonwealth English" rather than American, given that two-thirds of the parties use that English variant, and Australia seems to be getting more immediate direct benefit from it than the UK or US. (I ask because I just changed U.S. to US, which is an example of these differences – in Australia and UK the form without the periods is definitely preferred over the from with the periods, whereas in the US it is the other way around.) Mr248 (talk) 22:17, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I would tend to support Australian English, although British English with Oxford spelling may be a good compromise? Whizz40 (talk) 22:35, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm okay with either proposal – {{Use Australian English}} or {{Use Oxford spelling}}. My only doubt about the second is a lot of people are going to go "huh?" and have no idea what it is. Mr248 (talk) 22:43, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Shall we go with Australian English then? I suspect many or most of the sources on this topic over time will be in Australian English. Whizz40 (talk) 09:30, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done This is new for Aus, not new for the others. As development etc flows from this agreement, it is reasonable to expect most future articles to come from Australia — IVORK _Talk 23:12, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Merger

It seems that all the initial reports incorrectly named it as AUUKUS rather than AUKUS. I have no objection to the merger, and don't think anyone else will either, so I'll go ahead and BOLDly do it - but I think I'll do it AUKUS into AUUKUS, and then request AUUKUS be moved here, given the respective age of the two pages. BilledMammal (talk) 22:52, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Moved from Talk:AUUKUS

BilledMammal, I think merging it the other way and then moving it is making things unnecessarily complex. I'd suggest not doing that unless other editors agree it is the best approach. Mr248 (talk) 23:23, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

I vote to merge into AUKUS. Rjensen (talk) 00:52, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done— IVORK _Talk 01:03, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

ANZUS

I don't see any reason to have the anzus section as it's not relevant or related. 89.204.130.6 (talk) 20:51, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Also agree, the anzus treaty is not at all related to this page. 46.114.5.13 (talk) 21:09, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

I also agree regarding ANZUS. Nowhere does the australia, New Zealand or american government say they are replacing ANZUS with AUKUS. ANZUS is a treaty whereas AUKUS is more about sharing technology. 2.247.242.206 (talk) 21:48, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed the references to ANZUS should be removed as there is no relevance. 46.114.151.183 (talk) 22:09, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

The ANZUS text is false and misinformation. It's not a replacement for ANZUS. The text should be removed.

85.62.110.149 (talk) 20:21, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. The text is false and AUKUS has nothing to do with the ANZUS treaty which celebrated its 70th anniversary recently 89.204.130.6 (talk) 20:27, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

This may well be true, @89.204.130.6:, @85.62.110.149:, but could you provide a source countervailing the source that @Peaceray: has placed? BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 20:36, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

The ANZUS treaty and AUKUS are completely unrelated. Peace ray keeps adding false information and is a Chinese agent (Struck for wp:ASPERSIONS) 85.62.110.149 (talk) 20:39, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

@85.62.110.149:, that is totally unacceptable, and this is your only warning - do not cast aspersions about editors, including asserting that they are agents on behalf of one or another sovereign state. BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 20:41, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

I have not been adding information. I have been reverting your removal of cited material in the absence of sufficient explanation here or the provision by you of counter citations. This is what is known as edit warring, which I have warned you about on your talk page.

@85.62.110.149:, I might be better off financially if I was a Chinese agent, but I am not, & if I were, that would certainly disqualify my as an editor. As it is, I do not exactly believe that calling something the South China Sea does not entitle China to own it, but maybe that is a different topic altogether. Peaceray (talk) 20:47, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

•  Done linked in See also. Widefox; talk 22:21, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

G7 Summit in June

It seems likely that talks about AUKUS took place at the 2021 G7 summit in June when the Austrian PM was invited as a guest by PB Johnson. Has anyone seen any sources discussing this? Whizz40 (talk) 07:17, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Found some sources, will add [1]

Looks like someone was reading up on UK nuclear reactor technology back in April: https://pageviews.toolforge.org/?project=wiki.riteme.site&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&range=this-year&pages=Rolls-Royce_PWR

Whizz40 (talk) 07:30, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Lede; Australian-French Relationship

@Melbguy05: I think we need some form of discussion over the lede; to avoid misrepresenting the French position, I believe we need to do two things. We need to connect the submarine development to their military relationship/deepening strategic partnership, and we need to add the context that this occurred without any notice being provided to France. To this end, I propose the following:

On 17 September 2021, France, which is an ally of the three countries, recalled its ambassadors from Australia and the US; French foreign minister Jean-Yves Le Drian called the deal a "stab in the back" following Australia's cancellation of a French–Australian submarine deal worth €56 billion (A$90 billion) without notice, ending efforts to develop a deeper strategic partnership between France and Australia.

I will add that while I prefer "strategic partnership", as I believe it better reflects the relationship as going beyond military, while also being the term preferred in primary and secondary documents, I am willing to compromise to "military relationship" if you have strong opinions on this terminology. Finally, I also think that we should consider removing the primary sources you added, but that is a different discussion. BilledMammal (talk) 14:17, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@BilledMammal: The wording is okay except "deal" it is a pact. I think Jean-Yves Le Drian described it as a "decision" in a statement. "Strategic partnership" is okay it is what France's uses in their 2021 Update of France’s Indo-Pacific Strategy. --Melbguy05 (talk) 14:53, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

References

Done, with "pact" instead of "deal", though I am starting to wonder if "decision" would flow better. BilledMammal (talk) 23:09, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

French section should be shortened

The french section is far too long and detailed, the pact is not about France, and there is no need to make the article all about European countries which are not located in the Indo-Pacific region. Probably a separate article should be created about the French response. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 16:45, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

France was severely impacted. France and hence the EU is located also in the Indo-Pacific. Trigenibinion (talk) 16:48, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I think you are exaggerating the impact in France and Europe. The EU is not located in the Indo-Pacific. The only impact on France has been the cancellation of a submarine contract, which is not the only thing AUKUS is about, and the submarines from france were going to be delivered late and over budget. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 16:52, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

There are two million French citizens in Indo-Pacifc France. Trigenibinion (talk) 16:55, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Excuse me - what is "Indo-Pacific France" - never saw that on any map!! ??

There is a map on the article itself. Trigenibinion (talk) 08:33, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Two million people on a tiny island is pretty much almost nothing compared to the population of other countries in the Indo-Pacific. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 17:01, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

But the other countries did not also see a major collaboration destroyed. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:07, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I disagree that this section should be shortened - at least it shouldn't at this stage. Furthermore, the French response deserved a mention in the lead seen the diplomatic intensity of the French response. Morgengave (talk) 17:10, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

The French are just overreacting, since Australia cancelled the contract when they had the right to do so, for submarines that were going to be delivered late and over budget, which didn't meet their needs. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 17:13, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Censorship

Some editors have been removing referenced content from the beginning. Trigenibinion (talk) 09:13, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

French section has lots of one line paragaphs

The french section has lots of one line paragraphs, this could be improved. It's not so great having lots of one line paragraphs that aren't related to each other. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 18:20, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

If someone cares, they can add more text based on the references. Trigenibinion (talk) 18:25, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Or we can cut it down, we do not need a live news feed on the French reaction.Slatersteven (talk) 14:09, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Agree, we don't need a live news feed from any of the countries not only France. It's better to have proper paragraphs and not just one line news feeds. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 19:58, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

This is the kind of thing that would be easier to fix than have back and forth on it here. Screams to me of someone who can’t be bothered but is expecting others to fix it. Mark83 (talk) 20:00, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

What could be done so that the AUKUS article has a more neutral POV? [delisted RfC]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Original header was: "Request for comment on the NPOV in AUKUS Article." IP, this isn't a proper RfC question (see WP:RFCQ). It should generally consist of: should we do X or Y? El_C 17:49, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

---

2A02:908:182:AF40:481B:4E0F:1E1:22D0 (talk) 16:18, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

This is not really an RFC, it is far to broad.Slatersteven (talk) 16:20, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

It's important for an RFC especially with people trying to write the article in non English languages. 2A02:908:182:AF40:481B:4E0F:1E1:22D0 (talk) 16:22, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

There needs to be more long-term editors here which are not pro-AUKUS. Trigenibinion (talk) 16:27, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

By not Pro AUKUS do you mean pro French?46.114.4.228 (talk) 16:30, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Stop with the PA's and soapboxing. The next one gets reported.Slatersteven (talk) 16:31, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

This isn't a proper RfC. See WP:ANI#Improper RfC at AUKUS. Doug Weller talk 16:54, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

What's exactly being proposed? GoodDay (talk) 16:58, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

I hope that is a bit clearer.Slatersteven (talk) 17:03, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article needs to be written in french

Since the article is about France and France has been affected by it the article needs to be written in french.2A01:598:918A:4B91:1:1:8713:81E4 (talk) 11:33, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

The article you want is on the French Wikipedia. ClaudineChionh (talk) 11:52, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

Very much this, there is a French-language Wiki for a reason and an English language one as well. This article is also about 3 English-speaking nations, in fact it's not about France, it is about an OZ UK US alliance. So by that logic, all articles about this should be written in English.Slatersteven (talk) 11:55, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

All the pro French editing like trying to translate the article to French needs to stop as its not helping this article have a NPOV. 2A02:908:182:AF40:481B:4E0F:1E1:22D0 (talk) 15:47, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

PLease read wp:soap.Slatersteven (talk) 16:29, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

I can't speak or read french, so we should keep the article written in english. GoodDay (talk) 18:50, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

"export of weapons-grade uranium"

Trigenibinion, could you explain your edit that added Using the current American technology implies the export of weapons-grade uranium.? I'm not finding anything in the cited source that supports it (although I might have missed it on my read-through), but more importantly, you placed it in the Chinese response section. What has the sentence to do with the response by China? Schazjmd (talk) 22:19, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

The Australian PM said the submarines would not need to be refueled during its lifetime. The Guardian article states that the French nuclear vessels have to be refueled every 10 years because they use non-weapons-grade uranium. I just put it in the Chinese section because this supports their view. I later added the Malaysian and Indonesian views, so it could also go there. Trigenibinion (talk) 23:11, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

So it sounds like you're drawing a conclusion not stated in the source. Schazjmd (talk) 23:18, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

@Schazjmd:, it may not be in the source you removed, but it is in the "nuke proliferation" source - both mention that US nuclear boat tech uses HEU (and hence are considered a potenial nonproliferation concern) BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 23:22, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Then it should be cited to the proper source, and placed in a section of the article where it makes sense. Schazjmd (talk) 23:28, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

UK too: Trigenibinion (talk) 23:35, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Nuclear fuel isn't "Weapons Grade Material" check this reference Nuclear-powered submarines explained by a nuclear scientist, the statement "Using the current American technology implies the export of weapons-grade uranium" is erroneous and should be removed. Larsobrien lars 03:00, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

HEU: Trigenibinion (talk) 06:16, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Hello Trigenibinion, you need to read up on No original research and also keep in mind WP:3RR as there have been a few reverts now. Not just that but the other stuff about Brazil and the long string of citations about the US/France that seems to have come in and out more than once Bumbubookworm (talk) 06:06, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Another reference:

Incoherent policy: Trigenibinion (talk) 06:43, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Playing with words:

Also removed from Attack-class_submarine#Propulsion, if this decision gets reversed, reinstate there too — IVORK _Talk 01:29, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Look at this: Trigenibinion (talk) 14:58, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

References

Image of the Joint Leaders Statement

The joint leaders statement involved what was effectively a conference call between Johnson, Biden, and Morrison, with each of them standing in some form of media room. I have tried to find an image of this, as I think it reasonable to assume both that official photographers for each of the three nations would have documented the event, and as per normal these images will be published under a compatible copyright licence.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to find such an image; I was hoping that someone with more experience digging through government websites for this sort of content would be willing to give it a go, as I think it would be an excellent image for the infobox?

BilledMammal (talk) 13:39, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Is this the image you are looking for? See https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9995539/How-Joe-Biden-Boris-Johnson-Scott-Morrison-failed-mention-China-nuclear-sub-briefing.html Though the source is not considered the most reliable, the image seems to depict what you are describing. Jurisdicta (talk) 05:40, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, something like that - but something published under copyright licence that means we can use it BilledMammal (talk) 06:22, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I checked UK Gov website and could not find picture- their articles about this event were using stock photos of the people, or using a generic image of 10 Downing Street on some articles. :( Joseph2302 (talk) 08:09, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Alleged vandalism by Trigenibinion

Some new editors are undoing good-faith edits under false accusations of vandalism. Trigenibinion (talk) 14:21, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

From what I see you tried to introduce eurocentrism and things like the following headers "Comments and responses from the mainly impacted countries". "Comments and responses from other EU and NATO countries". There is no reason to have these headers and just having an International Responses section is appropriate. There is no need to have a section called mainly impacted countries, as so far no countries have actually been impacted by it apart from the three countries in the pact. Europe is also not located in the Indo-Pacific region.

178.202.82.89 (talk) 16:33, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I did not try to introduce Eurocentrism, as shown by the fact that the first country listed was China (each section in alphabetical order)

I believe there was a previous excuse of Eurocentrism in order to obfuscate the content, the new organization made explicit why the countries had been listed in that order

The three countries in the pact are not impacted, or I should have written "negatively impacted". A negative impact on France is a negative impact on the EU and NATO, and this is why the section follows. Trigenibinion (talk) 16:42, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Sorting of countries

Should we sort the countries by name so that there is no eurocentrism?

2A01:598:928B:D1B9:1:1:D4B7:C6FB (talk) 10:41, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

 Done I think it's probably a good idea to have them sorted alphabetically, so that there is no bias like there is at the moment.

AustraliaRodeo (talk) 13:20, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

It was not Eurocentrism. France and China are the other main participants in the affair, and the European countries were put near France because it is a member of the EU and NATO. Trigenibinion (talk) 13:35, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

France and European countries are not even located in the indo-pacific region and are not parties to the agreement. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 16:42, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

They are not parties to the agreement, so they are not listed in that section. It is false that France and hence the EU are not located in the Indo-Pacific. Trigenibinion (talk) 16:47, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Page under attack

Another new anonymous user breaking the page. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:55, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you are calling replying to comments attacking the page.178.202.82.89 (talk) 17:57, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

There seems to be some trolling on this page, the article is being broken. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:59, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

It seems to mostly be people wanting to put the EU and French response in a different section from the rest of the world. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 18:11, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

No, it seemed to be trolls breaking the page, not people who actually want to structure the content. You on the other hand, seem to be trying to obfuscate it. Trigenibinion (talk) 18:15, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Background - subsection title French–Australian strategic partnership

@Trigenibinion: Why did you rename "French–Australian submarine deal" back to "French–Australian strategic partnership"? (It had been "Australia–France strategic partnership" before my edit.) What was the strategic partnership? it was a submarine deal between France and Australia. Australia had considered buying submarines from Japan. If Australia had of purchased submarines from Japan would you title it "Japanese–Australian strategic partnership"?--Melbguy05 (talk) 17:40, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

I had added a reference: Trigenibinion (talk) 18:16, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

@Trigenibinion: The reference is "Naval Group-Australia strategic partnership" which is another way of writing "French–Australian submarine deal". Strategic partnership in that context means a business deal and not "French–Australian strategic partnership".--Melbguy05 (talk) 08:49, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@Trigenibinion: Please discuss subsection title to avoid an edit war. You continued to edit the article following my reply on the Talk page without commenting. I assumed you did not have an issue with my reply.--Melbguy05 (talk) 14:13, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

You would know it is not just a deal between a French company and Australia if you just paid attention to the French reaction. You keep trying to diminish the impoirtance of the partnership for France. Trigenibinion (talk) 14:18, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@Trigenibinion: The entire subsection is on the submarine deal. You changed the title here from "Contract for French-built submarines for the Royal Australian Navy" to "Australia-France strategic partnership including conventional French-built submarines for the Royal Australian Navy" which was later refined to "Australia-France strategic partnership". The reference you used was the Strategic Partnering Agreement which is the name of an agreement that "sets out the principles of cooperation" between Naval Group and Australia signed in February 2019. I changed the title to "Naval Group–Australia strategic partnership agreement". I would have preferred a title similar to "Contract for French-built submarines for the Royal Australian Navy". In your edit comments you wrote "Why do you think Europe is so angry?" I don't see how that is relevant to the title of a subsection on a submarine deal. France was deepening its strategic partnership (military relationship) with Australia after signing the submarine deal but the subsection does not contain any information on this.--Melbguy05 (talk) 15:51, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Trigenibinion (talk) 16:11, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

@Trigenibinion: WP:SECTIONHEAD "Section headings should follow all the guidance for article titles" MOS:AT "A title should be a recognizable name or description of the topic". The link you provided is on the submarine contract the "strategic partnership agreement". It is also mentions that France has a "strategic partnership" with Australia. As I discussed above the subsection is on the submarine deal. It has no information on the "strategic partnership" (military relationship) with Australia. If information on the "strategic partnership" was added to the article it would have its subsection with a heading such as "French–Australian strategic partnership" and the article would still have a subsection on the submarine deal with its own heading such as "French–Australian submarine deal" or "Contract for French-built submarines for the Royal Australian Navy".--Melbguy05 (talk) 03:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

The point of contention is that it now says "Naval Group-Australia" instead of "French-Australian" as the new reference shows. Trigenibinion (talk) 06:12, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

@Trigenibinion: I can list references for "French-Australian submarine deal" or "France-Australia submarine deal". A section heading the same as an article title should be a recognizable name or description of the topic MOS:AT and indicates what the section is about WP:TITLE. Your reference mentions two topics the submarine deal and the military relationship between France and Australia.--Melbguy05 (talk) 07:22, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

The reference clearly states "Florence Parly, ministre des Armées, et Christopher Pyne, ministre de la défense australienne, ont signé un accord de partenariat stratégique entre Canberra et Paris portant sur la construction de 12 sous-marins". Trigenibinion (talk) 08:28, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

References

Special section for European response

Since European and France are significant global players in the indo Pacific region the responses need to be separated from that of other countries. Also in Europe no one cares about Australia as it's small and insignificant in the world so the french response is More important2A01:598:9291:CD9B:1:1:F597:929B (talk) 17:05, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Australia is at the center of this and the EU is negotiating a free trade deal with Australia. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:14, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't see why Europe needs it's own section. Australia is the 12th largest Economy in the world and 9th highest GDP per Capita, which is higher than most European countries. It may make more sense for a section to put the response from Neighboring countries like New Zealand though.

178.202.82.89 (talk) 17:34, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

My organization assigns a section to each block, no special case.

I think besides reverse-vandalism, now we have trolling. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:40, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Look Europe has 700 million people whereas Australia is basically empty. Europe needs its own section separate from other countries as we are special. US is more important to Europe than Australia anyway and the US is a better ally to EU countries than Australia.

80.187.102.22 (talk) 17:47, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Europe doesn't need its own section. Wikipedia shouldn't be biased so it should not be Eurocentric and the response from European countries should not be considered to be any different from that of non European countries. The article is also about AUSKUS and not Europe or France. 46.114.4.197 (talk) 20:16, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

AUKUS replaced a partnership between Australia and France, which is a member of the EU and NATO. That is why the countries should not just all be randomly bundled together. It has nothing to do with Eurocentrism. That said, each block should have its own section. Trigenibinion (talk) 20:31, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

The rest of the world doesn't exist. Anything outside of europe is an illusion.

2A01:598:9291:CD9B:1:1:F597:929B (talk) 22:34, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

I would agree that "France" (rather than the EU) needs a separate section. The deal replaced an important deal with France, hence France is an integral part of the event. It also has geopolitical consequences seen the adverse impact on the semi-alliance between France and Australia, the resurgence of the France-led European debate on being able to take up its own security, and the potential impact on internal French politics (seen the upcoming election). As such, it's somewhat different from the somewhat generic diplomatic responses from many other countries. Morgengave (talk) 10:47, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

France should have it's own page about it's response to AUKUS and not be part of the main AUKUS article. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 12:40, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Map of Indo-Pacific with AUKUS territories

Could someone pull together a map of the Indian and Pacific Oceans, showing the territories of the US, the UK and Australia (so including British Overseas Territories, and the like)? I think it would be helpful to show to the reader that there's quite a bit of territorial involvement in the region, beyond the obvious Australian mainland and Hawaii. David (talk) 19:41, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Is this the type of map you are looking for? See https://www.pacom.mil/About-USINDOPACOM/USPACOM-Area-of-Responsibility/ Jurisdicta (talk) 04:39, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

I think they are looking for something similar to the map of France's territories and EEZ's, but for Britain, the United States, and Australia? If it exists or can be made, I think it would effectively contextualize the agreement, especially Britain's role in it. BilledMammal (talk) 06:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi. Yes, I was thinking along the lines of BilledMammal - EEZs would also be useful/relevant, as the pact covers control of underwater/seabed by the sounds of it. David (talk) 15:22, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Done, thanks to an excellent SVG created by User:B1mbo; I'm not attached the colours, and have included details on how I altered the SVG so that it shouldn't be a huge effort to change them should someone wish to do so. BilledMammal (talk) 23:09, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Thanks - great work! David (talk) 10:51, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Just noticed there's quite a few US territories and their EEZs missing from the map... Exclusive economic zone of the United States. David (talk) 14:33, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Okay, I've added to your map - first time I've edited a SVG so hopefully it's alright! David (talk) 15:42, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

All the islands occupied by the UK in the South Atlantic near Antarctica are claimed by Argentina. Trigenibinion (talk) 15:48, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Chagos Island is claimed by Mauritius. Trigenibinion (talk) 15:52, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Gibraltar is claimed by Spain. Trigenibinion (talk) 15:52, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

So? David (talk) 16:34, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any relevance to it, despite other countries claiming the places they are not a part of the countries claiming it. Next we will be writing that every island in the South China Sea is part of China just because they claim it. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 16:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

The UN ruled the UK has no sovereignty over Chagos. Trigenibinion (talk) 16:47, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

The disputed territories should be colored differently. Trigenibinion (talk) 16:39, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Does anyone live in Rockall? 178.202.82.89 (talk) 16:35, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

It does not matter. And 4 similarly distant countries claim it. Trigenibinion (talk) 16:37, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Rockall is an uninhabitable Island so I don't see any reason to mark it on the map. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 16:44, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Wrong because of EEZ. Trigenibinion (talk) 16:51, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

The map only needs to show the french ones. The other ones aren't relevant.

One line summary of articles

The one line summary of articles being posted without any context or details don't really seem sufficient. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 20:09, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Expand the content then according to the source. This is a collaborative effort. Trigenibinion (talk) 20:16, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

When you are posting content to the article, it's not really sufficient just to post one line with the title of the article like you did with Kiribati. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 20:17, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Also agree, if content is going to be posted then it should be more than one line and not just the title of the article. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 20:20, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I went finding the information, stop with your bogus complaints. Trigenibinion (talk) 20:26, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Writing a Wikipedia article is about more than just pasting a lot of one line headings of articles. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 20:29, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I've just taken a stab at merging some of these single sentence lines, and taking out some of the worst offenders. If others have better organization or prose in mind, feel free to implement it. BSMRD (talk) 14:18, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

You conveniently removed Vietnam's response as well as many of the French reactions. Trigenibinion (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

We do not need every reaction.Slatersteven (talk) 14:27, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not need to save paper and I am not aware of a capacity problem. Trigenibinion (talk) 14:34, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

But we do need relevant and useful information WP:NOTEVERYTHING makes that clear.Slatersteven (talk) 14:37, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

What makes things clear is having references to non-propaganda sources explaining the known positions of the different stakeholders. Trigenibinion (talk) 14:53, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't believe I removed a single French response, I simply merged them into relevant groupings. If you look you can see every citation is still in the article. As for Vietnam, one brief sentence saying "don't use nuclear energy for war" is not a noteworthy reaction, if there is more to say we can give them a section, otherwise not much point. You are correct that Wikipedia does not have a capacity problem, but it does have a WP:DUE problem. Not every reaction needs it's own line. BSMRD (talk) 14:39, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

OK, the French content seemed shortened; as for Vietnam, I think not including the position of a country in the region when it is known is unfair. Trigenibinion (talk) 14:48, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Feel free to restore the Vietnamese line if you'd like, I'm not too hung up on it, though if we could expand it with some more sources that would be ideal. BSMRD (talk) 14:57, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I will not add it myself because I have been unfairly accused of bad faith. Trigenibinion (talk) 15:00, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Anti French vandalism

The page needs to be protected to stop anti French/European vandalism. 46.114.6.234 (talk) 21:39, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

@46.114.6.234: You're an IP editor, the user that reverted you is a template editor, increasing the protection level will only sooner block you out. Your claim would need to be backed by substantial sources to be added and overturn the majority, not just be your opinion — IVORK _Talk 23:04, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Protection has already been requested at least twice but the problem was considered to be small. Trigenibinion (talk) 23:09, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Its not wp:vandalism, its a content dispute. I note the number of wp:spa IP#s that a cropping up here making the same point. I suggest it stops before we do have protection.Slatersteven (talk) 09:52, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Separate Page for Responses to AUKUS

Since the responses are taking up over half of the article, probably the responses should be on a standalone page. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 16:57, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

This is a typical technique used on Wikipedia to hide content. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:00, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

It's definitely a good idea, since as time goes on the initial response to AUKUS becomes less relevant. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 17:04, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

It's premature to move out content, but at a later stage, that may be useful. Morgengave (talk) 17:06, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, later the Article should be mainly about AUKUS, with a separate page about the response. Otherwise it becomes cluttered and filled with irrelevant information. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 17:11, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

The edit history of this article is filled with bogus excuses to remove content. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:16, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I do notice a significant anti-France bias, which I don't get, because the disruption in its relationships with Australia and the US is deemed, at least for now, a significant geopolitical event by most reliable media. Of course, only the future will tell its true significance, but for now, we should treat it as reliable media treat it: as an important subtopic to the nuclear submarine deal. Morgengave (talk) 17:31, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I've noticed a big bias towards European countries, this is probably a result of Europeans editing the article. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 17:33, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

You are deflecting. You seem to have have an agenda. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:35, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

The article definitely needs some further editing to remove bias towards any country. Which is also why a separate response page is a good idea, rather than people filling it up with the french/european response and trying to write negative comments about Australia. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 17:40, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I saw nobody attacking Australia. Questioning its government, yes. Trigenibinion (talk) 18:00, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

This is interesting. I was wondering why there is such a strong resistance in this article against incorporating/treating the French response part as the reliable media do. I honestly never considered that it may be a sensitive point in Australia. Morgengave (talk) 18:09, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Australia is ruled by News Corp, they have a bigger problem than the UK and the US. Trigenibinion (talk) 18:21, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Your comments seem to be very negative towards Australia and Australians, and Anti Australian. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 18:24, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Being anti-News Corp is being pro-Australian. Trigenibinion (talk) 18:41, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

While reliable media may have their own bias, it's not a personal bias from us editors to follow how they report the event. The French response is extensively reported and analyzed by many international media - not just European or French media - and put forward as an important topic linked to the submarine deal. Morgengave (talk) 17:48, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

The agreement is not only about submarines, far too much emphasis is being put on the submarine component of it. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 18:00, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

We all have our views and interpretations, but our personal opinions are irrelevant. Reliable media heavily report on the French response and they find it an important topic; that's what matters. With time, this may change. Morgengave (talk) 18:06, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

There are plenty of other reports as well and not just about the French Response. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 20:22, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Sure, I never claimed all of the articles are about the French response. That doesn't affect what I am saying. Morgengave (talk) 22:02, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I think we all need to take a step back and have a quick read of WP:CIVIL, as I feel this section is getting a little heated.

I think it is a little premature to split this article up, as it is far short of the maximum prose length before splitting is advised. Particularly because splitting it up won't resolve the issue that seems to be causing the most issues, which is the relative prominence of the various response; in particular, I believe we will continue to need to cover the responses of France and China in the main article.

Instead, I propose we return to the format of yesterday; we hide all countries, bar China and France, from the table of contents, and put the international responses in a single section. Is this acceptable for now? BilledMammal (talk) 21:54, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, good idea. Morgengave (talk) 22:04, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Different line entirely, create an article for the Aus-French deal & collate responses to the breakdown of that there. Put responses about the Aus-French deal breakdown all into Attack-class submarine, cross link with a section & {{main article}}, but keep AUKUS for the specifics of that pact & Australia's military escalation in the sourthern pacific. With the withdrawal of ambassadors, it appears to have enough individual content to support itself — IVORK _Talk 23:28, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

There aren't many AUKUS details yet, some call it a diversion, I have seen at least two theories. Trigenibinion (talk) 23:37, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

@Trigenibinion: If you have points to make, state & source them, I have no idea what your comment is in reference to at all. Talk pages are for article improvement, not conjecture & rumours. There's enough details on the new submarine roadmap & countries responding to escalation of Australia's military inventory to justify this article, likewise I feel there's enough backlash/detail to support an Aus-French Submarine deal article — IVORK _Talk 00:41, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I mean I don't think there's enough details to make an AUKUS article without reponses. Trigenibinion (talk) 00:44, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

@Trigenibinion: That would be true, I'm proposing it be split for reactions to the treaty forming & the Aus-French article have reactions to the breakdown of their treaty as well of details of the plan. While clearly relevant here, the majority of that deal's breakdown should be listed there instead. (I've edited my previous comments for clarity) — IVORK _Talk 00:58, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I think it is more likely that people search for AUKUS than look at the cancelled submarines, so it would be hiding the reactions. Trigenibinion (talk) 01:03, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Or we reduce it, this is one treaty. All treaty's get negative reposnses.Slatersteven (talk) 09:56, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

EU reaction

We need a big section describing the failure to consult with Europe before announcing the agreement. 85.62.110.149 (talk) 14:00, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Why? Biden or another Dem president will reneg on the agreement anyway. BilCat (talk) 21:02, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

How is "Europe" and/or their opinion or approval relevant? This is the business of the Western allies in the Pac Rim. It's not as if small countries like Spain have any influence.50.111.15.21 (talk) 13:43, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

European countries are not small and have plenty of influence in the world. Spain is not a small country and has a bigger population and economy than australia. The European Union should have been consulted before it was announced.89.204.130.6 (talk) 20:53, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

Actually - Australia has a GDP per capita of $50,400 as of 2017, while in Spain, the GDP per capita is $38,400 as of 2017.

Spain has a population of 47 million while Australia has 25 million. Trigenibinion (talk) 08:41, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

You stated, "The European Union *Should* gave been consulted". That is the problem, that's an opinion. In fact, adding this section is purely a matter of opinion, and isn't currently relevant to the main article. If there are instances worthy of note that occur in the future (besides the current passing remarks), and make this section necessary, it can be added, but for now. No.

Willthehelpfuleditor (talk) 18:01, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why the EU should have been consulted. The EU doesn't consult Australia before making agreements with EU or non EU countries, so there is no reason for Australia to do that either. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 20:01, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Background to French response

Some background information about French interests in the region is necessary for an ordinary reader to understand the French response to AUKUS. Removing it is therefore not an improvement to the article. Whizz40 (talk) 20:38, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

The content that keeps getting added back in is not relevant to the article and was reverted by several editors. If people want to learn about France they can go to the page about France. It does nothing to help people understand the French Response, other than make the article not have a NPOV. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 20:41, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

The rationale that AUKUS "is not targeted at the French" is willfully or naively misunderstanding the context. per cites, for the French, security in the Indo-Pacific is an internal security issue. That's a different context from simply a commercial submarine deal being cancelled. The average reader won't know this unless we include it in the article. Whizz40 (talk) 20:44, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Section for Responses from Countries in the Indo-Pacific region

Since countries in the indo-pacific region are the ones most affected by this agreement, we should create a section "Comments and Responses from Indo-Pacific Region countries" and remove the responses to there. 1.157.55.9 (talk) 06:34, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

That would definitely make more sense than the other changes people are making like putting the response from countries not in the region as more important than ones in the region. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 06:42, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

I would dispute the claim of "most affected"; outside the AUKUS nations, I don't believe it is in dispute that the most affected nations are China and France. Further, all the international responses should be presented in the same section as it falls under the broad grouping of "international response" - splitting it will impede navigation and understanding. We also wish to keep the table of contents concise; this means that we cannot reasonably list in it every nation who responded and must either list none or a select few. I believe the later is more useful in helping our readers navigate, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise.

I will also note that you have incorrectly classified three countries; neither North Korea nor New Zealand are in the Indo-Pacific, while China (partially) is.

All up, I would ask that you revert your edit while this is under discussion. I will note that we will want to change the "Psuedo-headings" from the origional ";" to standard bold markup, in line with MOS:PSEUDOHEAD. BilledMammal (talk) 06:56, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

New Zealand is also in the Indo-Pacific region, being a part of Polynesia, having dependencies and also having several islands located in the region. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 21:40, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

EU

Why are Germany and Portugal not in the EU section?Slatersteven (talk) 11:55, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

There is no EU section. I had organized the non-member responses as follows, but it was immediately reverted by a new editor alleging vandalism:

• Mainly impacted countries
• Other EU and NATO countries (like mainly impacted France)
• Other Five Eyes countries (like the members)
• Other Indo-Pacific countries
• Other Asian countries
• Other comments Trigenibinion (talk) 12:04, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The section names above are not really suitable, especially the sections called mainly impacted countries and Other Five Eyes countries. Calling them Other Five Eyes countries is also not great.AustraliaRodeo (talk) 12:55, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Everybody knows France and China are the main losers. This means the EU and NATO are seriously hit. A point has also been made that Canada and New Zealand are not part of AUKUS. Korea and Japan are not in the Indo-Pacific. Trigenibinion (talk) 13:04, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Apart from France having had a contract with a French company cancelled, there doesn't actually seem to be any other impact. The article also needs to have a NPOV and not biased towards France or the EU. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 13:08, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

It is not true there's no other impact. The editing has been dominated these past few days by anti-French bias. Trigenibinion (talk) 13:11, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

That's because they are Australian editors who are antifrench and anti European wanting to write negative comments about the french and European countries. 2A01:598:A906:C3A5:1:2:4AD9:7923 (talk) 13:30, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

A username is no guarantee where a user is from. It could be someone championing for their country's submarines even if they are powered by HEU. Trigenibinion (talk) 13:38, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

5.2 European Union, that looks like an EU section.Slatersteven (talk) 12:59, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Other five eyes countries would be just Canada and New Zealand, so it's not really suitable for a section, as the other three members of the five eyes would be in other sections. 178.202.82.89 (talk) 13:03, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

It does not matter they are only two. It is a logical grouping according to main commonality. Trigenibinion (talk) 13:08, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Let's create a section called colonial countries.80.187.120.237 (talk) 13:23, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Is that grouping more related to AUKUS than EU or NATO? Trigenibinion (talk) 13:26, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Colonial countries would include all former and current colonies like Australia new Zealand Canada and India. 2A01:598:A906:C3A5:1:2:4AD9:7923 (talk) 13:30, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The overwhelming majority of the Indian population do not descend from colonists. Trigenibinion (talk) 14:22, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

I see you might be talking about its legal system. Trigenibinion (talk) 17:42, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

"Colonial countries", seriously?Slatersteven (talk) 14:01, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

they have all been or are colonies of other countries so colonial countries would be the correct term to use to describe them46.114.6.234 (talk) 21:40, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Many European countries never had colonies. Trigenibinion (talk) 22:52, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

"Colonial countries" is a terrible idea. M.Bitton (talk) 23:00, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

When was NK a colony? Or the EU (which is not even a country) or Germany?Slatersteven (talk) 09:53, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Germany had colonies. Trigenibinion (talk) 13:50, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

North Korea did not. So is it "countries that were colonies" "counties that had colonies"? This is just a mess of an idea that it totally unfocused. So lets just say "Other countries".Slatersteven (talk) 13:55, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

The suggestion combined both. I think because the native population in some ex-colonies is now a minority, and that the idea was only floated to make a point. Trigenibinion (talk) 14:02, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

As well as countries that have neither had or been colonies. It is a NPOV mess that served no purpose.Slatersteven (talk) 14:05, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

It can also be because of modern France. But the population in their territories are French citizens and offered independence referendums, although in the case of Mayotte it is claimed by Comoros. There are also two atolls that the central government refuses to give up to local control because they are nuclear test waste no-go zones. Trigenibinion (talk) 14:53, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

And? I am unsure what point you are trying to make here.Slatersteven (talk) 14:58, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I am explaining the point the person who suggested this might have been trying to make. Trigenibinion (talk) 15:01, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

And it is a point I disagree with as I am not sure what point it is trying to make, other than that former colonies oppose it whilst former colonial powers agree with it (which as I said may not even be true). As I said it is a wp:npov mess. I have said my piece and there really is no more to be said about this.Slatersteven (talk) 15:07, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Nobody in Australia, the US or UK would refer to themselves as a colonial country. The term is also not at all appropriate for describing a group of countries. AustraliaRodeo (talk) 19:57, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Polynesians have been complaining about the effects of the tests for decades. A book was published in March and it became a huge issue in France (also concerning Algeria). Trigenibinion (talk) 22:00, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

And? Thes subs are not nuclear armed.Slatersteven (talk) 09:09, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

That would not be the Polynesians' main concern. And a submarine can launch nuclear weapons other than ballistic missiles, so the complaint raised on Chinese TV about future possibilities is valid (removed from the article because there was no pointer to the segment). Trigenibinion (talk) 12:09, 30 September 2021 (UTC)