Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2022-01-30/Opinion
Discuss this story
- @GorillaWarfare: While I don't agree with the article's conclusions, the arguments posed here (particularly the summaries in the final two paragraphs) are, in my opinion, much stronger than those put forward in the RfC itself. (The ideas in the RfC that accepting crypto could lead to meaningful reputation damage, or be equivalent to Wikimedians' endorsement of crypto investing, are both ideas I find very problematic. In contrast, the analysis here about the balance of limited potential benefits to the WMF and donors versus the ethics of incidental normalization of the technology, I find this to be on sound footing even if many may disagree about the details.) I would recommend linking to this article from the RfC. Just my opinion. (Also, a typo: "...largely ified by the...".) --Yair rand (talk) 22:21, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
- Ha, looks like some sort of weird null bug with the Signpost script. I've fixed it, and put a note at User talk:Evad37/SPS.js#Problem if the page includes the word "null". Good call on linking from the RfC, I'll do that too. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 22:26, 30 January 2022 (UTC)
- This was actually published from my copy of the script, which probably has the same bug -- a real head-scratcher. Will have to remember this for February! jp×g 01:38, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
- A really compelling argument. For anyone who wants to learn more, the very densely packed Line Goes Up sheds some light on the misguided motivations behind participants in this form of gambling (cryptocurrency and non-fungible tokens). I know I am not an outlier in the Wikimedia community for being a sucker for a good bit of maths/theoretical computer science, so I saw a fair bit of the maths behind Bitcoin before really understanding what was in it for regular users/investors, almost none of whom understand the simplest mathematical aspect of it. Cryptocurrency and NFTs are a form of market speculation—a Ponzi scheme in which the already-rich will assuredly reap huge rewards, while the tech bro middle class gamble with lottery odds at becoming rich. They are decentralised and open source in name only, and the industry is rampant with fraud and scams, which are often not illegal. — Bilorv (talk) 22:22, 31 January 2022 (UTC)
- I would also highly recommend this video, for what it's worth. GorillaWarfare (she/her • talk) 00:42, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
- I wouldn't go so far as to call the token itself a Ponzi scheme. It has its technical up and downsides of course, but the more speculative hypes around it come from the usual lot. CurryCity (talk) 21:57, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Cryptocurrency is banking for countries where governance is poor or non-existant. All of your arguments applicable tothe traditional banking sector, especially where Cryptocurrency thrives - and where it is the lesser of the money evils.[1][2]. Most of the big wallets belong to cryptocurrency exchanges. Cryptocurrency is better at curbing money laundering and enforcing capital controls than fiat currencies.[3][4] Here are some happy stories about Crypto commodities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VT_zpHQzBE. Here's an article you might want to expand, and currencies you might want to stop taking if you care so much about the things you mention: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Petrocurrency.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 102.165.232.228 (talk) 21:15, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- I invite you to consider the notion that the use of Bitcoin for remittances and financial inclusion is yet another move by Western capitalists to use lower-income countries to their benefit, by increasing the number of holders of their preferred financial asset in order to increase its value. If you want examples of local initiatives that are actually making a difference, see India's Unified Payments Interface and Africa's Pan-African Payment and Settlement System [1][2][3]. JBchrch talk 23:00, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, I invite you to invite me to consider how I can take part in this without a birth certificate or a passport? Or if I need money to escape my slave master, or if my slave master keeps my documents.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 102.165.232.228 (talk) 13:38, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? How many slaves do you think have crypto currency wallets? How many slaves do you think have computers, or access to one? How likely is any of your dumbass scenario? Jorm (talk) 21:02, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- How am I not a slave if my forced husband owns me by law? How is my phone not a computer? Just because you don't know how to hide things on your phone doesn't mean that I can't, it also doesn't mean that I can't explain this to everyone I know. Just because I was born into an open air prison doesn't mean that I should not have means that allow me to make trades and hide them. I can do translation, accounting, design, almost anything for you on my phone, and you can pay me in any token, and one day I will have enough to escape. I can even get paid to play games. But I don't espect you to understand. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 102.165.235.134 (talk) 07:31, 7 February 2022 (UTC)
- Logic has never been the strong suit of crypto-bros. TrangaBellam (talk) 14:59, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you, I invite you to invite me to consider how I can take part in this without a birth certificate or a passport? Or if I need money to escape my slave master, or if my slave master keeps my documents.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 102.165.232.228 (talk) 13:38, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- Bitcoin is at best a solution in search of a problem. But I believe it is little more than a high tech ponzi-scheme whose only realistic uses are mostly illegal and immoral. It has no utilitarian value. I can't eat it. I can't cook with it. I can't build anything with it, and it doesn't conduct electricity. It has no intrinsic value and the idea of it functioning as a widely accepted store of value is risible given its legendary volatility. I can't take a bagful of Bitcoin and lock it in a safe deposit box or bury it in my back yard. Unlike gold (which does have a credible claim to being an alternative store of value) you can't even use it for dental work or jewelry. Excluding El Salvador, the only really large entity that seems happy to accept crypto as a medium of exchange for goods and services that I am aware of, is organized crime. BTC is ideal for money laundering, tax evasion, hiding assets from creditors and ex-spouses. But I really can't see any other function. And the idea of the WMF utilizing a system employed by drug cartels and kidnappers, who post videos of children being tortured and demanding ransom payment in Bitcoin, strikes me as well beyond "ethically questionable." I would have difficulty sleeping at night if I ever touched anything so dirty. -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:02, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
- How are traditional currencies any different in this regard? If the WMF held on to its crypto assets, and didn't spot convert it, its crypto donations would've dwarfed all other income 5x, and it would've today had 7 years of runway, instead of just 18 months. To boot, how do banks protect themselves against corrupt employees? Gold's value is not from jewelry and dentistry, it has value because it's fairly useless, yet scarce, but chiefly because it's a measure of the excess mining capacity and energy an economy has, so it's a peg on that. Similarly, oil is a peg on economic activity. Similarly, crypto commodities are a measure of how much excess energy and computing power an economy has. It smokes out cheap energy and computing, and with its hyper transparency it also smokes out corruption, and it rewards those who build it, three things that have much amplified value to our economies. This whole thread strikes me as the remarks of people who have never found themselves on the wrong side of any authority or regime. Count yourselves privileged and lucky, and I truly hope it stays that way for you, but don't assume that this is a luxury that everyone shares and don't expect everyone to await your imperial liberation with abated breath and don't forget that Wikipedia does not belong to the WMF. Actually, I just realized that WMF not accepting Crypto donations is totally fine, I am glad the WMF spot converted its Cryto donations, because I don't think it having more influence and power to spread its ignorance will change much.
- Your explanation of gold and oil pricing is completely fabricated. I don't have the time to deconstruct it in detail but gold has not been a mesure of any country's economy since the end of the Gold Standard and oil pricing is heavily determined by what the OPEC does. In fact, this false explanation seems to be specifically built to justify the pricing of crypto. As for the
authority or regime
thing, I invite you to consider that a public and "hypertransparent" blockchain is not the best way to hide from an oppressive government. In fact, this notion is completely contradictory to your argument that crypto is good for anti-money laundering, anti-corruption and capital controls. JBchrch talk 14:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC) - And I don't resist adding that if the WMF had a stock of assets with returns so high that it would dwarf all their other assets, then the CFO should be fired, because they would have taken way more risk than a careful and long-term approach would dictate. It's a joke that Matt Levine has made a few times. JBchrch talk 16:29, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
- Your explanation of gold and oil pricing is completely fabricated. I don't have the time to deconstruct it in detail but gold has not been a mesure of any country's economy since the end of the Gold Standard and oil pricing is heavily determined by what the OPEC does. In fact, this false explanation seems to be specifically built to justify the pricing of crypto. As for the
- To answer your question: yes, we should. That crypto currency is misused here and there doesn't change the fact that's it is a promising technology that could revolutionize how Wikimedia contributors are rewarded, etc. We should encourage more integration between Wikimedia and blockchain technology - of course, with the strong nod to the currencies that are more eco-friendly (not proof-of-work) and not scammy like memecoins etc. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 10:32, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Wikimedia contributors should not be "rewarded" for contributions (compensation in a small minority of cases is separately motivated). If you want to focus on blockchains that are not proof-of-work then you will be focusing on cryptocurrencies that are not backed by any major authority and are therefore subject to large fluctuation in value based on market competition. (You can't even call pump and dump schemes, Ponzi schemes, pyramid schemes or other confidence tricks a "misuse" of the technology, because this is the only serious purpose of crypto.) I can't see in what way cryptocurrency is "promising" in achieving any positive goal. We already have a perfectly good open source system on Wikipedia (importantly: with no transaction fees for committing diffs), and there's no reason it would be advantageous for all financial transactions in a private individual's life to be made open source. Blockchains could speculatively be used for copyright in the future, but we're part of the open source community, so that would be mostly antithetical to our values. — Bilorv (talk) 11:16, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- Why "should not"? I fear that the fact that we aren't is responsible for a knee-jerk reaction each time someone is found to be rewarded or suggests others should be, and one stemming from simple jealousy (I could be wrong, but we need psychological research to understand this better, shrug). I have no idea what you mean by currencies backed by any major authority. Which authority is backing bitcoin anyway? Proof of stake is tied to some major altcoins that some are saying will eclipse bitcoin in few years (Cardano, Avalanche, Polkadot and Solana). I see plenty of cool ideas related to such tech, from gaming to creating a new IoT network (Helium) to many others. While the tech can be used unethically, such uses represent a minority of totals - at least that's how it has always been when it comes to social uses of pretty much all general technologies, and I see no reason why crypto should be different. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:02, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- I have no idea who you think I am jealous of, but I would make different decisions about where to spend my time were Wikipedia a paid enterprise. El Salvador has Bitcoin as legal tender, to answer your question. I see no use for Helium when natural monopolies like wireless infrastructure are most efficient when nationalised rather than subject to market competition (as they will be in the cryptocurrency HNT). I have yet to see a game inherently dependent on cryptocurrency that is enjoyable in and of itself, rather than dull and play-to-earn mechanic-based, nor can I see how one could possibly exist with advantage over in-game currency (unless you happening to be a thrill-seeking gambler). You have not understood my point about the market mechanics of crypto being inherently a pyramid scheme and confidence trick. Line Goes Up, which I linked above, makes the case for this in a compelling manner. — Bilorv (talk) 16:24, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- Another, slightly more thorough, source on this last point: [4]. JBchrch talk 16:36, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- Ha, I can't agree on the moral conclusions but it's a very direct derivation of Bitcoin as an inherent Ponzi/pyramid scheme. Very interesting reading. — Bilorv (talk) 20:53, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- Another, slightly more thorough, source on this last point: [4]. JBchrch talk 16:36, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- I have no idea who you think I am jealous of, but I would make different decisions about where to spend my time were Wikipedia a paid enterprise. El Salvador has Bitcoin as legal tender, to answer your question. I see no use for Helium when natural monopolies like wireless infrastructure are most efficient when nationalised rather than subject to market competition (as they will be in the cryptocurrency HNT). I have yet to see a game inherently dependent on cryptocurrency that is enjoyable in and of itself, rather than dull and play-to-earn mechanic-based, nor can I see how one could possibly exist with advantage over in-game currency (unless you happening to be a thrill-seeking gambler). You have not understood my point about the market mechanics of crypto being inherently a pyramid scheme and confidence trick. Line Goes Up, which I linked above, makes the case for this in a compelling manner. — Bilorv (talk) 16:24, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- Why "should not"? I fear that the fact that we aren't is responsible for a knee-jerk reaction each time someone is found to be rewarded or suggests others should be, and one stemming from simple jealousy (I could be wrong, but we need psychological research to understand this better, shrug). I have no idea what you mean by currencies backed by any major authority. Which authority is backing bitcoin anyway? Proof of stake is tied to some major altcoins that some are saying will eclipse bitcoin in few years (Cardano, Avalanche, Polkadot and Solana). I see plenty of cool ideas related to such tech, from gaming to creating a new IoT network (Helium) to many others. While the tech can be used unethically, such uses represent a minority of totals - at least that's how it has always been when it comes to social uses of pretty much all general technologies, and I see no reason why crypto should be different. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:02, 17 February 2022 (UTC)
- Wikimedia contributors should not be "rewarded" for contributions (compensation in a small minority of cases is separately motivated). If you want to focus on blockchains that are not proof-of-work then you will be focusing on cryptocurrencies that are not backed by any major authority and are therefore subject to large fluctuation in value based on market competition. (You can't even call pump and dump schemes, Ponzi schemes, pyramid schemes or other confidence tricks a "misuse" of the technology, because this is the only serious purpose of crypto.) I can't see in what way cryptocurrency is "promising" in achieving any positive goal. We already have a perfectly good open source system on Wikipedia (importantly: with no transaction fees for committing diffs), and there's no reason it would be advantageous for all financial transactions in a private individual's life to be made open source. Blockchains could speculatively be used for copyright in the future, but we're part of the open source community, so that would be mostly antithetical to our values. — Bilorv (talk) 11:16, 13 February 2022 (UTC)
- A really compelling argument. For anyone who wants to learn more, the very densely packed Line Goes Up sheds so
- GorillaWarfare stated that:
1) "..but the space has overwhelmingly become an opportunity for self-enrichment at the expense of others and the environment." However, that is not the case. Bitcoin's energy usage is very green, and some of it is even carbon negative. 2) "People are regularly scammed for enormous sums of money,..". That won't hold either. If you read the referred Chainanalysis report deeper than the title, you will notice that A) It doesn't apply to Bitcoin, B) Crypto space has grown so big that the 14 Billion is just a tiny part of it. According the report "Crime is becoming a smaller and smaller part of the cryptocurrency ecosystem" so things are going to better direction, not worse. 3) "Rather than empowering the unbanked" .. just when El Salvador took it in use for that. 4) "Furthermore, the underlying technology is enormously slow and difficult to scale". There has been build a second layer network on top of Bitcoin called lightning that will scale to process up to 1.000.000 transactions per second. 5) "As a result, the decentralization of the web that was supposed to result from the adoption of blockchain technologies has only resulted in the centralization of power in a handful of companies and venture capital firms." Outright wrong. Bitcoin is decentralized (and even more so after mining moved out of china) and it is by far the biggest, and not owned by venture capital firms. Second biggest is Ethereum and same applies for that. Otherways Crypto currencies were used a lot for donations, and the amount has been growing. --Editor92345 (talk) 18:12, 16 February 2022 (UTC)
- I just want to add that those interested in helping fight financial misinformation (as related to crypto) should consider helping out at WP:Finance and WP:Cryptocurrency. Whether the WMF accepts crypto or not (I personally don't think they should), the bad state of many important articles in this topic area leads to much more misinformation and adoption through promotional, unencyclopedic, and evangelical editing. Experienced hands are always welcome at these projects.A. C. Santacruz ⁂ Please ping me! 09:45, 18 February 2022 (UTC)
← Back to Opinion