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Academic journal article of interest

This academic journal article mentions several members of WP:IPNA. Wikipedia’s Indian problem: settler colonial erasure of native American knowledge and history on the world’s largest encyclopedia - published yesterday in the journal, Settler Colonial Studies, published by Taylor & Francis. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2201473X.2024.2358697?src=exp-la – if that link doesn't work try this one: – https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/2201473X.2024.2358697

Note that the footnotes on the T&S website are buggy, you may have to copy and paste the urls into a browser to see the diffs in the footnotes. Netherzone (talk) 02:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing the article. It is a lot to take in. I have been concerned about the lack of Native American history in "History of..." or the History section of articles about places, but I had not realized that someone had been deleting them. I have added them where I could, but that might be a new niche for me... to look for missing sections about Native Americans.
There is a lot to take in. I am not sure that it tells the full story of the problem. I think that there are more ways that there is a lack of objectivity and openness.
There is also a great opportunity here. For instance, as forward-thinking as the Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples may be, it has been rejected by the U.S. and Canada. It would be great to see objective articles that tell the truth of Native American history and Native Americans as people to help change public perception about what indigenous people have experienced since colonization, particularly to the people that tried to build relationships with people in government and mediated for treaties to have more and more land and rights taken away over time. It would be nice, and in my mind necessary, for Wikipedia to be objective in the handling of Native American issues and have input from editors who are Native Americans.–CaroleHenson (talk) 04:01, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
I will note that in many cases any content in WP about the Native American history of places in the U.S. is poorly sourced, and often so vaque as to be useless. While citing sources, the content at Lakeland, Florida#Early history, for example, tells us nothing specific about the early history of the city. The content at History of Bartow, Florida#Pre-Columbian era to statehood is even more verbose, without actually telling us anything about the history of the site where the city now stands. There are also plenty of articles about places in the U.S. that do have usable content about Native American history in the area: see History of Gainesville, Florida#Native American, Pre-European, or Ocala, Florida#History, or Brevard County, Florida#History. I would like to see a list of articles from which Native American history has been removed, to see what was actually removed. I know that many articles about places in WP should have (more) coverage of pre-European history, but in many cases that may be best handled by linking to articles that cover such history for a wider area, if there are no reliable sources for the early history of a specific place. Donald Albury 15:28, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
The author's email is linked at the beginning of the article. I'm sure they would be willing to share the examples they found that led them to their conclusion. Yuchitown (talk) 15:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Something to add to my to do list. Having just finished Chatot, I was planning to work on some non-Native American history for a while. Oh well. Donald Albury 17:15, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
I have added it to my to do list Donald Albury at Working on. I was going to start with some of the Colorado places that I haven't deliberately worked on. It is great that you have an interest in Florida places. Thanks, Yuchitown for the suggestion to contact the author. I will do that.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:19, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Are you planning to email that author? If so, we should coordinate. I think it would be best if only one of us requests the list, and then shares it here. Donald Albury 18:48, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
Yes, you're right, Donald Albury. Go for it. I didn't realize you were thinking of that, too. If you wouldn't mind sharing what you learn, that would be wonderful.–CaroleHenson (talk) 18:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much for sharing "Wikipedia’s Indian problem: settler colonial erasure of Native American knowledge and history on the world’s largest encyclopedia", Netherzone! I'm glad User:Indigenous girl and User:CorbieVreccan's stories are preserved in a scholarly journal, that we lost two brilliant editors due to non-Native fragility. Kyle Keeler provided excellent analysis.

This was a heart-breaking loss to the community, and continues to play out less dramatically on an ongoing basis. Yuchitown (talk) 13:37, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree 100% Yuchitown, Kyle Keeler did an excellent job on the article. I deeply miss the presence and efforts of Indigenous girl and CorbieVreccan. They both made incredibly well-researched contributions to IPNA and its associated articles. The depth of each of their respective knowledge and understanding of community was exceptional. They did stellar work for the encyclopedia, and I'm still very saddened about how their voices were silenced by WP. Netherzone (talk) 14:05, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
One can easily see the trends Keeler describes in the many efforts to remove the word genocide from articles relating to Indigenous peoples' histories. Cornell Law School mentions "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group", so the starvation on reservations, removal of Indian children into residential schools, and forced sterilization of Native women without their knowledge or consent that continued into the 1970s in the US and at least the 1990s in Canada makes it clear that genocide occurred here. Yuchitown (talk) 14:20, 26 May 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown
It was. Doug Weller talk 15:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)
— Frankly, Keeler's essay. seems rather juvenile in its aspect, typically aimed at a young and naive college audience. Aside from playing the race/ethnic card at every turn, he uses the obtuse term, "settler nationalists", or other such variants, such as "settler colonial erasure", some 88 times. This coming from someone who teaches at and draws a paycheck from Lafayette College, founded in 1826 by "settler nationalists". His right to free speech, and other such rights, is also the product of "settler nationalists". He also ignores the fact that settlers were those who came to the new world in the 1600 and early 1700s, yet he refers to the lot of us editors today as "settlers". He typically confuses the idea of "genocide" with any sort of warfare, ignoring the fact that many Indians were bent on settler removal over the entire continent, and resorted to unspeakable tactics that also effected women and children, while Lafayette college (under investigation for promoting antisemitism) openly called for the genocide of Jews and, to use Keeler's own term, "settler nationalists", across America, when protestors at Lafayette College, and elsewhere, chanted "death to Israel" and "death to America".i.e.genocide.
— In any case, yes, Keeler resorts to general overtures in his accusations of "colonial erasure" here at WP, but never outlines any definitive examples. e.g.The use of the term "genocide", while such attempts certainly occurred at the hands of both Indians and settlers, is an idea too often equated with general warfare and is often misused by professors, activists and other like minded individuals. Please tke a close look at that essay -- lot's of generic claims and footnotes -- no actual examples. He cites one incident where an editor was banned for constant disruptive behavior, which Keeler assumes was only part of a greater conspiracy by "settler nationalists" trying to erase American Indian POVs, which, like any other POV, is not above honest criticism.
— If anyone can outline actual examples of this so called "settler nationalist erasure" of American Indian aspects of history articles please cite the example(s), and more over, try to equate this as some sort of overall conspiracy here at WP. Please don't confuse removal of any content for lack of citations, original research, acutely slanted POV's, etc, with "erasure", which any material may be subject to. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:55, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
— Last, if Keeler and others are able to point out "erasure" and other such affairs here at WP, why have they not logged on to Wikipedia and added any material themselves? It can't be removed if it is cited by reliable sources. Overall all we have here are complaints, no actual editing -- Gwillhickers (talk) 18:25, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
I can't claim to be Native, but as a descendant of a Cherokee man who had his land stolen by whites and was marched on the Trail of Tears but managed to escape, I certainly believe that the government of the United States and white settlers often engaged in what amounts to genocide. I read every word of Keeler's essay except the notes with their infernal one-way links, and regard it as a fraudulent, ferocious hit-piece written to advance the career of its author, completely unscientific, and a very shoddy bit of pseudo-scholarship. He ignores the vast amount of work successfully done by Natives and African Americans on this website to correct the historical record depicted here, and concentrates on the injustices suffered by particular Native editors. He writes as if Natives have no agency and cannot defend themselves, and must depend on the Great White Savior to stand up for them. So ironically, he is perpetuating the very settler colonization against which he rails.
Glaringly absent from his attack piece are the actual accomplishments of editors such as ARoseWolf whose talk page input was crucial to the rewriting and decolonization of the Andrew Jackson article in the face of much heated contention, or of Xicanx, a self-identified Xicanx who wrote most of that article, practically all of the excellent Detribalization article among others, and revamped the Tongva article, for example, as well as many others, in scholarly fashion. Finally, I must mention the estimable Hoodoowoman, who has done so much to improve articles about Blacks and Black culture across WP, especially in such contentious articles as Lost Cause of the Confederacy, which prior to her additions] lacked coverage of the work of Blacks generally and Black women particularly to counter the pernicious effects of Lost Cause ideology and propaganda.
May I ask, what has Keeler done to improve Wikipedia's coverage of such issues? After all, anyone can edit it. If he had any guts or sincerity, he would be right here in the trenches. I don't expect that to happen anytime soon, as he appears to be too busy trying to enhance his reputation among his students. Carlstak (talk) 20:08, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for your accurate estimation of editing affairs here on Wikipedia. Yes, many (very) unfortunate events happened between settlers and Indians, and from what I have seen, it is well represented by editors of WP history articles. Indeed, there has been exception taken to the often habitual use of the term "genocide" when referring to almost any conflict between settlers and Indians, but at the same time, there is no denying such events occurred at the hand of both settlers and Indians. Again, if there are reliable sources to cite any of the affairs in question, editors are free to edit accordingly. Keeler's article is indeed a hit piece against almost every editor of American history articles and only does a disservice to the credibility of any legitimate complaints that are made. In Wikipedia's defense, anyone can indeed edit, so long as they abide by the policies that apply to all editors, esp in regard to Original Research, SYNTH, acutely biased POV's, and poorly or unsourced statements. WP would not have stood as a leading source of information for all these years if this was not the case. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 21:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
  • I started to write something but I really ran out of desire to halfway through it. Part of being an editor is accepting criticism when it is mentioned. I've received my fair share. How much of it is justified doesn't really matter. I miss Corbie. I miss Indigenous girl. I miss many other editors, even the ones I have clashed with. I am thankful for editors that I have worked with like Netherzone, Yuchitown, and oncamera. I appreciate Carlstak mentioning my name below and I am proud of what we were able to get done on Andrew Jackson. It is not perfect or exactly what I wanted. It is demonstrably better. I'm not going to criticize any viewpoint taken here or off-wiki. --ARoseWolf 14:20, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
  • For the moment, I am waiting to assess the evidence the author has. I have emailed him for a list of the articles from which he says Native American history has been removed or blocked from being added and he has responded, agreeing to send me the list as soon as he pulls it together. I want to know about articles from which reliably sourced, due content about Native American history has been removed or kept out, so that I can fix the articles and evaluate further appropriate action. - Donald Albury 14:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
  • The complaint was not made so much over simple criticism, but Keeler's sweeping accusations that the writer has yet to substantiate with actual examples. As of yet, Keeler has failed to provide any actual examples where well sourced material concerning Indians has simply been deleted for no reason. IMO, Keeler has a deep seated contempt for "settler nationalists", a term he uses some 88 times in his essay, and has gone so far as to refer to editors here at WP as "settlers". -- Gwillhickers (talk) 16:38, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
I have wp:courtesy blanked a section titled "COI issues", written mostly by myself. I don't think I violated policies but the section is causing us stress that probably is not worth it. Clayoquot (talk | contribs) 16:57, 28 May 2024 (UTC) [1]
  • I'm not part of this project and I'm off Keeler's radar, but I have followed his timely writings for a year or so. Per the "CorbieVreccan" and "Indigenous girl" discussion above, Keeler explained that both were "brought before Wikipedia publicly for refusing to allow non-Native editors to add colonial viewpoints to Native pages, and their work to protect Indigenous histories on Wikipedia was used against them...in addition to being publicly shamed, both users were harassed off-Wikipedia, made to fear for their safety so that they would not return." In my understanding of his article and previous articles on ToolX and "methodology", Keeler called for revisions to the "content resolution structure" and a "conference with a consortium of universities where experts are asked to audit their subject areas." I'm a bit alarmed by the harassment both editors received, or at least what Keeler claimed they received. Conversely, his comment on these editors "refusing to allow non-Native editors to add colonial viewpoints" warranted clarification, given that he self-identifies or self-identified as "settler-descended" (that doesn't preclude "Native" endonyms, although he also premises arguments on a strict Native/Non-Native dichotomy). He recently presented on how "public knowledge is crafted and controlled on Wikipedia", without an explicit reference to Native Americans and indigenous peoples. I don't mean to make you a proxy, so perhaps I'll wait for the list, but I did want to add my own thoughts. He received criticism from Wikipediocracy users as well, which may be neither surprising nor relevant. Bustamove1 (talk) 07:52, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
    Note on that presentation here:[2] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:39, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

For the interested: User:Tamzin/Public_response_to_the_editors_of_Settler_Colonial_Studies. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:49, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Now at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2024-06-08/Opinion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:33, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Is this edit ok?

[3]. Doug Weller talk 19:24, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Mohawk skywalkers

I've started an article on the Mohawk skywalkers. It needs work, but I was surprised that there wasn't anything on Wikimedia Commons. Photos would be a nice addition, if any can be found in the public domain. Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 22:00, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for doing this - there is a substantial section in the Kahnawke article here: Kahnawake#Working in New York. Some years ago I saw the independent Indigenous film, on them and the Little Caughnawaga neighborhood in Brooklyn (where a lot of them lived). There should be an article on the 'hood as well. I've created a stub on the Little Caughnawaga neighborhood, please feel free to expand and improve.
Photos added to Mohawk skywalkers.Because some of the bridges were built before 1930, there should be photos out of copyright. I'll see if I can find any, and if not, I'm pretty sure I remember there were historical images used in the film - so maybe a screenshot might work? Netherzone (talk) 00:55, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
@Netherzone Perhaps the article could also be nominated for "Did you know..."? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 20:51, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
@Bohemian Baltimore, I had the same thought just this morning. Mohawk skywalkers would make an excellent DYK. It would be of interest to many readers, and would call attention to this important Indigenous history. Please let me know what I can do to help improve the article. One thought I had was to create a gallery of images. Lewis Hine, who shot the 1928 photo of the workers sitting high in the sky on the iron I-beam, did a series of photos of the skywalkers, the Smithsonian owns these photos. I've been trying to access that archive of images online (so far, not successful, but I'm persistant ;-). Thank you again for creating it! Netherzone (talk) 00:20, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
I'll also look for photos and source material from other regions where the skywalkers worked. I did not know it was so widespread, thought it was just Canada & New York. Netherzone (talk) 00:31, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
@Netherzone I think it may be too late to nominate the article, but I'm not super familiar with how the process works. Sorry. I've been a bit hectic lately. I think the only way we could nominate now would be to get the article to GA or expand 5x? Bohemian Baltimore (talk) 01:10, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
No worries, Bohemian Baltimore there will be other opportunities to collaborate. I've done a few DYKs but found the process labyrinthian and somewhat confusing. But am willing to give it a try again. Years ago I was hoping to bring Pueblo Pottery to GA, but again found the process/procedure intimidating so I gave up. On another note, I have been meaning to thank you for all the hard work you've done on categorization, and of course your many article creations. Netherzone (talk) 01:52, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

List of Indigenous newspapers in North America

Here's some good news! Over the past week or so, @Yuchitown and I have been crafting a new list article List of Indigenous newspapers in North America that will be helpful in providing sources from the various Tribes/Nations. It also includes tribal newsletters. It's not quite "finished" and may never be, however it is comprehensive enough that I feel comfortable posting this here (a link is also on the IPNA main page).

Please feel free to continue to improve and expand it. Within the next few days I hope to create a List of Indigenous magazines and academic journals in North America. It would also be excellent to have a List of Indigenous Media, TV, radio and podcasts in North America.

Thank you in advance for helping out with this project!

BTW, it will be interesting to see whether Indigenous is capitalized or whether it is not in these scores of sources. Netherzone (talk) 14:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

OK, I have just created two userspace drafts User:Netherzone/List of Indigenous magazines and academic journals in North America and User:Netherzone/List of Indigenous media, TV, radio and podcasts in North America. (The titles of which of course can change if these aren't quite right). Please contribute to these drafts! Netherzone (talk) 15:30, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I used to read the Juneau Empire. I just scanned it for articles and they capitalize Indigenous (i.e. Indigenous leader, man, woman, people). Not exactly an Indigenous owned newspaper but one that recognizes the importance of Alaska Native's to Alaska, both current and past. Then there is Alaska Native News. News for Alaska Native's which you already have listed but is really good source. Southcentral Foundation does a free publication of Native news in and around Anchorage. I'll continue to look for more media sources. --ARoseWolf 16:04, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
The Tlingit & HaIda Central Council releases a quarterly newsletter titled Tribal News. --ARoseWolf 16:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks! I've added Tribal News and Anchorage Native News to the list article. Will look into the other two you mention. Netherzone (talk) 19:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
I've added some to the User:Netherzone/List of Indigenous media, TV, radio and podcasts in North America. I added the National Film Board because while they are not predominately by or targeting Indigenous peoples there are quite a few works by them that apply.
How about things like Up Here (magazine) or News/North? The first is a glossy magazine that is not really aimed at Indigenous peoples but does sometimes contain articles by Indigenous peoples. By the way there is the Canadian Indigenous Media Index. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 18:24, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for these contributions and for pointing to the Canadian Indigenous Media Index. Yes to Up Here and News/North. All contributions and improvements are welcome! Netherzone (talk) 18:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Just realised that it might be best to keep the lists to individual countries otherwise it could get very long. See List of sovereign states and dependent territories in North America. CambridgeBayWeather (solidly non-human), Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 18:46, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
I see what you mean. Since I live in the US, I'll try to remain focused on that country. I'm glad you brought this up as it crossed my mind when working on the List of Indigenous newspapers in North America and wondered if it should be broken up into US and Canada and Mexico; however, you have called attention to the fact that the matter is larger than that. Netherzone (talk) 20:26, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Brulé

Requesting move of Brulé to Sicangu at Talk:Brulé#Requested_move_14_June_2024. Yuchitown (talk) 15:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Should have just moved it, it's not controversial  oncamera  (talk page) 18:02, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Probably, however, so many folks jump in and unilaterally make moves (see below), that I didn't want to do the same. Yuchitown (talk) 21:35, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Move discussion at Atakapa

See: Talk:Atakapa#Requested_move_17_June_2024 Yuchitown (talk) 21:35, 17 June 2024 (UTC)Yuchitown

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