Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 150

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Archive 145

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Archive 148

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Notability of awards

Some editors have requested the addition of some awards on a page I watch: Talk:Robert Lewandowski#Globe Soccer and iffhs achievements in 2021. I am unfamiliar with any of them: Globe Soccer Maradona Award, IFFHS Men's World's Best International Goal Scorer, IFFHS Men's World's Best Top Goal Scorer, and IFFHS Men's World's Best Top Division Goal Scorer. The former appears to have been voted on by Tik Tok users. I am not certain what criteria was used for determining the IFFHS awards. Is there a resource that lists the good and bad awards for easier reference? Something like Wikipedia:Record charts or Wikipedia:WikiProject Albums/Sources, which I use when editing music articles. A source like those would be useful here. It would also help in determining how to find sources for specific honours (such as whether a team member would or would not qualify for a Champions League honour) or which honours should not be included (derby wins are ones I frequently see removed).

Also, would someone please address the request for the addition of these four awards at? Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:05, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I think if an award is not notable enough for its own article then it should not be included on a player's honours. Giant Snowman 20:40, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I am in agreement with that idea. Most of the winners of those awards already have a plethora of awards and a few more are not going to tip the balance for that subject, but might help with search engine optimization for the award. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:38, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Hi Giant and Walter Görlitz - to this end, is the Syrenka Cup a notable trophy deserving of an article? I am not familiar with the cup competition but apparently it's an U17 international tournament. I've seen it on a few player articles including Erling Haaland, Jude Bellingham, Jadon Sancho, and Harvey Elliott. Cheers. Rupert1904 (talk) 19:48, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Manager Stats

I know in manager stats, Cup matches that end in penalties are recorded as a Draw in the Stats Table, regardless of whether they are won or lost. Is there a link in the MoS that confirms this? I know I'm going to get reverted if I try to move them, so the link would be helpful. Thanks if anyone can help. I checked the Player article template, but there was only a player stats section. Thanks in advance. RedPatch (talk) 23:28, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I don't know about in the MOS, but the Laws of the Game indicate that the penalties do not form part of the game and take place after the game has ended, although they do also refer to them being used to determine the winning team........ -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:20, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm more interested in why the last column of manager stats is always win percentage instead of points percentage...? This is isn't basketball and manager who drawn 9 games and lost 1 is clearly better than the one that lost all 10, but somehow wiki stats doon't reflect that.--BlameRuiner (talk) 08:37, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

I've noticed W% to be preferred over P% in other instances other than manager stats; and yes, I also agree that P% makes more sense. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:17, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

P% is more important to stats/footy geeks like us, not really the general reader. Without doing a deep dive, I think most "media" tends to report W% and that is what the general reader understands. --dashiellx (talk) 13:10, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Also, W% is constant, whereas P% would not be comparable across history because of the changing amount of points for a win. A manager who had a record of P100 W50 D25 L25 in the 1930s would have a better P% than a manager with a record of P100 W50 D25 L25 in the 1990s even though they achieved exactly the same results..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:14, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

On Google, the results seem fairly similar for W% and PPG (10m v 17m for the PL, for example). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:20, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Why would we use points percentage for a manager's record in all competitions? For one thing, not all competitions have stages that require points, and for another, how would you deal with managers whose careers spanned the change from two-points-for-a-win to three-points-for-a-win? – Pee Jay 17:56, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

Yep, I knew I'd get reverted. Article is here at James Rowe (footballer, born 1983) if anyone else wants to try. Article has been through a lot the past week (see talk page) because we're trying to 'blemish reputations' apparently. So the PK wins in cup matches have to count as wins, but the regulation loss in a promotion playoff apparently doesn't count, I'm guessing, since they're also removing losses. RedPatch (talk) 03:36, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Now claiming that his Soccerbase profile is an unreliable source, instead citing the team profile on soccerway, which doesn't even mention team records. RedPatch (talk) 12:16, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I have removed the section on Rowe as being insufficiently sourced. Giant Snowman 12:44, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

So is Soccerbase now deemed an unreliable source for manager stats?--Egghead06 (talk) 12:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

It was sourced to soccerbase in this edit, but they didn't like that soccerbase records (correctly) knockout competitions wins in penalties as draws, so they removed it as "unreliable". They've also removed other sourced info in the past (anything that ever mentions a loss or anything slightly negative) over the past months. (most but not all has been re-added). RedPatch (talk) 13:03, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Soccerbase is widely used for both player and manager stats...while there is obviously the occasional error (as there all with all sources), it is deemed reliable. Giant Snowman 19:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

yeah, penalty shootout losses do not actually count as losses they count as draws. thats why in the efl trophy the match ends as a draw in the group stage then each team gains a point. then they play a shootout for another point and the match officially counts as a draw. thats just how it is, you cant list them as a win/loss, and when there's stats for things like "10 matches unbeaten", penny shoot out losses arent included in things like that cuz draw. you lose the *shootout*, but not the match.Muur (talk) 22:21, 23 December 2021 (UTC)

The SPA account is back. Saying to use soccerway over soccerbase because soccerway "lists matches for the team" if I go to the team page (but doesn't list it for the manager specifically), while ignoring that soccerbase does it for the manager specifically. Also, they keep saying it's only 9 losses because soccerway shows this (even though if I use the soccerway source it still shows 10 - I feel they want to conveniently leave out the playoff match they lost). RedPatch (talk) 13:00, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I have reverted @Immersive01: as it is clear that the Soccerway source is insufficient, left them a message, and invited them to join in the discussion here. Giant Snowman 13:04, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Why is Soccerway source insufficient? Please explain as I'm baffled. Immersive01 (talk) 16:35, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Please advise how this match results situation is resolved? What do you need as evidence to prove Chesterfield Football Club had the results that have been stipulated? Immersive01 (talk) 16:40, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

the Soccerway list of matches a club has played in is not good enough to justify a manager's stats. See WP:OR/WP:SYNTH. Giant Snowman 19:59, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

User is back with another non-soccerbase reference. They are determined to record Penalty kicks as wins rather than draws. Perhaps we should open a RFC for how to record penalties and add it to the MOS so there is an agreed upon consensus for the Player article template. RedPatch (talk) 15:19, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Non-Soccerbase is not the issue - the issue was that Soccerway was insufficient. I am pretty sure this is non-reliable as, like Transfermarkt, it can be edited by pretty much anyone? If it is reliable and the article reflects the source then no issues. Giant Snowman 15:36, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I didn't mean it had to be soccerbase, but just that different sources will treat things certain ways. So if on some articles we record Penalty results as Wins/Losses and on others we record them as Draws, there's an inconsistency there. I don't care for the source being a specific one, just want to make sure there is consistency. RedPatch (talk) 17:09, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

we cant just opinion on if penalty kicks count as a win or loss, its literally from the laws of the game. youd may as well go "Im not counting that goal because I dont want to cuz I dont like that player".Muur (talk) 21:54, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree that it's a draw, but this editor is determined to record them as wins to make him look better record wise. Since it's not in the player article template, I feel it should be, just not sure how to go about getting the consensus to confirm that. RedPatch (talk) 22:12, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

then ban the user?Muur (talk) 01:09, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Peter Krawietz

Hi all, due to COVID, it looks like Peter Krawietz may well take charge of Liverpool's game against Shrewsbury Town in the FA Cup tomorrow. If such a thing was to occur, would it warrant the creation of an article for Krawietz? REDMAN 2019 (talk) 13:43, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Potentially, yes, although GNG more important than NFOOTBALL. Giant Snowman 15:34, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

I feel like a caretaker in a situation like this isn't really something you should include and its gonna be very common, man city's assistant took charge the other day for the same reason.Muur (talk) 01:11, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

New category

Category:Non-English Teams in the FA Cup. I feel like this has been created before, but couldn't find a deleted page. I don't know if it's a suitable creation or not, just bringing it to people's attention. Seasider53 (talk) 21:01, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

If it is kept, it should be renamed as there is no reason for the capital T on Teams -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:36, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

It should be take to WP:CFD. Giant Snowman 09:37, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

CFD discussion started here. Please feel free to contribute there. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:11, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Moussa Camara

Hello. In the 1980 African Cup of Nations, there was a Guinean footballer called Moussa Camara. He made three appearances and scored one goal for Guinea. The issue is that I can't find his date of birth. How would we disambiguate with Moussa Camara (Malian footballer) and Moussa Camara (Guinean footballer)? Paul Vaurie (talk) 23:45, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Note that the 1980 Moussa Camara was even included in the tournament's best team. He's a defender. Paul Vaurie (talk) 23:46, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

They all play in different positions so you could disambiguate by position as it suggests at WP:NCSP#Association football (soccer). Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:53, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

So, how could you do that? Moussa Camara (football goalkeeper), Moussa Camara (football forward), and Moussa Camara (football defender)? Paul Vaurie (talk) 06:35, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

No - it would be Moussa Camara (goalkeeper), Moussa Camara (forward), and Moussa Camara (defender). Giant Snowman 12:32, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

James Brown

There are many footballers called James Brown, see James Brown (disambiguation)#Association football, most English or Scottish.

One such player is James Brown (footballer, born 1998), born in England but called up by Malta.

Another player is User:GiantSnowman/James Brown, Irish but also born 1998. Both are also defenders.

How should we disambiguate these two (when the latter becomes notable - I'm going to search for more sources for GNG now)?

Month of birth - so James Brown (footballer, born January 1998) and James Brown (footballer, born June 1998)?
Nationality - so James Brown (English-Maltese footballer) and James Brown (Irish footballer)?
Other - though I am struggling to think of what.

Any suggestions appreciated! Giant Snowman 17:00, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I would generally go for option one when naming such articles. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 17:36, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

Definitely not English-Maltese footballer. I guess by month of birth. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:00, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

thank you both. Do you think the Irish draft has enough to meet GNG? Giant Snowman 18:58, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

It should probably wait until he has made his Blackburn debut because the Irish League is not fully professional as far as I know. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 19:16, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

GNG is separate to the league. Is the coverage of Brown significant to confer notability? Giant Snowman 19:17, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the coverage satisfies GNG. James Brown is such a common name, in a few years we might need to add day to the disambiguation--dashiellx (talk) 21:04, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: When players' nationality is unclear or they have two nationalities, just disambiguate with year/month. Paul Vaurie (talk) 06:27, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I think there are two players from one of the East African countries where day actually has to be part of the disambig. Geschichte (talk) 13:20, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

What if we have twins who have the same name? (It could happen. Some countries do actually name their children like that) REDMAN 2019 (talk) 13:31, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I know three brothers who all have 'Mohammad' as their first name, and different middle names (that they go by). Giant Snowman 13:35, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Geschichte: there's Paul Smith (footballer, born 22 January 1976) and Paul Smith (footballer, born 25 January 1976)...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:36, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Wouldn't it make more sense to rename the first guy Ian Paul Smith? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:50, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: If that's the common name, then yes. Paul Vaurie (talk) 06:24, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

....which it isn't. The player is/was never referred to as "Ian Paul Smith" except on his birth certificate. I have never seen an article disambiguated by naming it with the person's entire name, including forenames which are not used in normal parlance -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:21, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

See this requested move. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:28, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

It amazes me that the main page of James Brown goes straight to the singer and not a disambiguation page. Gordon Brown is also James Brown! Govvy (talk) 11:59, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Where is Gordon Brown known as "James Brown" though? When I think of "James Brown", I think of the musician and I think that goes for most people. Robby.is.on (talk) 12:13, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Gordon Brown's real first name is James (Gordon is his middle name, his name is "James Gordon Brown"). Joseph2302 (talk) 12:16, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

The WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the name James Brown is clearly the singer. Nobody is ever going to look for the former PM of the UK under the name James Brown -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:20, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Assumption is the ....

Govvy (talk) 12:33, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Joseph2302, I know. But the pertinent question would be whether anyone looking for Gordon Brown's article would search for "James Brown". Robby.is.on (talk) 12:40, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Future academics/users might just do there, they see a list of Prime Ministers and see James Gordon Brown in a list and then type just James Brown to look him up. People assume too much, I bet you the average 18 year old kid doesn't even know who James Brown the singer is! :/ Govvy (talk) 12:55, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

In an n=1 study of 20-year olds that I just conducted, 100% thought that James Brown was a singer. 100% also knew that Gordon is actually James, which I didn't know until this morning. Spike 'em (talk) 13:02, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

O,o @Spike 'em: I think I just saw a UFO for you to chase! Govvy (talk) 13:08, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

My 16yr old daughter responded "Unless this is trick question, he was a singer". But the issue @Govvy: is suggesting is why the about template is on the singer's page. --dashiellx (talk) 13:13, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Mattia del Favero

Today, he's returned to Juve from his loan. No one knows whether he'll play for Juve or Juve U23. Should he be put in the Juventus or in the Juventus U23 squad? Dr Salvus 12:21, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Realistically he will be an U23 player. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:14, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Cap column in int. goals table

93.34.90.232 (talk · contribs) seems keen on wanting to keep the caps column in Moise Kean's international goals table (dif), despite the information being unsourced, and not standard per the MOS. I think I might have already violated 3RR, so I'll sit down on this one. If anyone could help it would be nice. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:21, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I never understood that some users added it (seen it a couple of times). Kante4 (talk) 15:51, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

It's original research if not sourced. And don't see the value of it anyway (even if properly sourced). Joseph2302 (talk) 15:59, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Niger

Hello. What is the correct name for the top-level football league in Niger? Niger Premier League, Ligue 1 (Niger), Super Ligue, or something else? I can't find consistency in sources. Please help. Paul Vaurie (talk) 06:20, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Considering that French is the official language there. I would rule out the Premier League option. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 13:12, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

It seems to have been called Ligue 1 until 2018, then Super Ligue from then, according to GSA (at the bottom of the page). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:55, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Soccerway says 'Ligue 1', NFT says 'Super Ligue (1. League)'. Giant Snowman 21:01, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Soccerway isn't that reliable wrt non-top tier leagues. They are using a Saudi club's logo for Lebanon's most successful club... Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:43, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nehme1499: Soccerway is really quick at making corrections if you email them at support@soccerway.com. I noticed an error yesterday (two players with the same name, they had mixed up some of their stats), emailed them, and they already corrected it. RedPatch (talk) 22:06, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

I had contacted them multiple times about this, as well as incorrect player images. They told me they'd get to it, but never did. They did correct duplicate players though. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 22:09, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Interesting that they do stats, but not image corrections. I've only ever done stats corrections. I'm sure it must be a bit frustrating for a club you follow. RedPatch (talk) 22:10, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Ok, that's interesting, but back to the question. Have you seen any other names in sources? Paul Vaurie (talk) 22:06, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Given that GSA have actual timeframes for the names, I think the article should be moved to Super Ligue (Niger). It's also the name Nigerien news sources have used in 2021 ([1], [2], [3]).Nehme ₁₄₉₉ 22:19, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Ok, that clarifies things. I will move it now. No RM needed. Paul Vaurie (talk) 05:15, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I've been bold and have moved it myself. Can someone please take care of the categories? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 09:23, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks. Will do for categories. Paul Vaurie (talk) 19:29, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Marvin Friedrich

Should we include FC Augsburg in the infobox of Marvin Friedrich? He didn't make any bench appearances for the club. He only played for FC Augsburg II. Note that he signed for FC Augsburg in €1 million transfer deal in 2016. Paul Vaurie (talk) 19:00, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

No, just keep the II side. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:35, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Giant Snowman 19:45, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Cesena

Please have a look. A.C. Cesena and Cesena F.C. clearly two clubs. the latter is a renaming of minor local club R.C. Cesena (r.c. means Romagna Centro). It just a year after the "new" club start to buy some of the assets as a "merger" and formally renamed to Cesena F.C.. Still AC Cesena and Cesena FC are two different name.

It is unlike Fiorentina or Torino or Napoli, they use a special clause Article 52 of N.O.I.F. to claim as official phoenix club. Cesena did not use the article 52 clause. The other clubs that does not use that clause , some of them fold again. Just like A.C. Ancona, U.S. Ancona 1905. There may be some merit to place the illegitimate phoenix club in one umbrella article , but that user just keep insist to perform bold merge and level 4 warning issued. WP:RPP rejected my request BTW. Matthew hk (talk) 04:33, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

The official website of Cesena F.C. even stated clearly it is not A.C. Cesena but lineage from R.C. Cesena. https://web.archive.org/web/20181224031255/http://www.romagnacentro.it/il-club/index.html

Il 1973 rimane quindi l’anno di fondazione della Polisportiva Martorano che nell’ultimo decennio diventerà ASD ROMAGNA CENTRO.....In seguito al fallimento dell'AC Cesena da luglio 2018 l'ASD Romagna Centro diventa ASD RC Cesena e, grazie al sostegno di Cesena FC spa, inizia una nuova avventura divenendo così la prima squadra della città di Cesena. Un libro aperto con tante pagine ancora da scrivere.

I don't know why that user keep on claiming the case is the same as Fiorentina or Torino or Napoli, which clearly not the same. Matthew hk (talk) 04:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Arsenal vs Real Zaragoza

Hello! Can you check the line-up image in this game?. I see that Arsenal has a 4-4-2 line-up I think they had a 3-5-2 line-up in that game. And one player's name is misspelled it should be Belsué and not Belsúe. Check the line-up image and see what you can do. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 13:39, 11 January 2022 (UTC).

According to this, Arsenal played in a 4-3-3 formation, so I'll fix the page to match that. – Pee Jay 10:48, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Subcategories

Just to check - a player in Category:Irish expatriate sportspeople in Sweden should not be in Category:Irish expatriates in Sweden per WP:SUBCAT should they? 89.101.121.132 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) cannot understand that and has accused me of vandalism for removing the parent category from the Aaron Drinan article. Giant Snowman 14:47, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Being in the subcat is enough. Kante4 (talk) 15:03, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:31, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Agree, WP:SUBCAT makes it clear they don't need to be in the parent category Category:Irish expatriates in Sweden. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:39, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Footballers from Palermo, Sicily

Greetings. I´m editing Serie C players, and i found a lot of Palermo (Sicily) players. My question is, many of them have both categories, Footballers from Palermo and Footballers from Sicily, is this a overcategorization or not?. Thanks.Pincheira22 (talk) 00:14, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Yep, no need for the Palermo one. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 01:06, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Surely it’s the Sicily one that should go? If there are enough sportspeople from Palermo to categorise them by sport, there’s no need to say they’re from Sicily too, since the fact they’re from Sicily is implied by the fact they’re from Palermo. – Pee Jay 01:39, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, lapsus. Of course, I meant Sicily. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 02:01, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Yeah definitely one or the other. I think there have been efforts to prevent the scope of 'footballers from' narrowing too much - but it's got a bit crazy over in Spain recently so seems a bit unfair to exclude one of Italy's larger cities. So if Palermo is acceptable as a subcat, it should stay and the wider Sicily one should go (I suspect this was someone overwriting 'Sportspeople from Palermo' without removing 'Footballers from Sicily). Crowsus (talk) 02:04, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Only one cat should be present in an article, but the Sicily cat is valid and should not be deleted. Giant Snowman 12:35, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

What? Why? If he's in the Palermo one, you don't need to put him in the Sicily one too. One implies the other. – Pee Jay 12:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

I think we are confusing one another, I have clarified above. Giant Snowman 12:58, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah sure, yeah. I don't think anyone was talking about deleting any categories from the site, just removing it from certain players' articles if they're already in a subcat. – Pee Jay 13:02, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

In which case we are in agreement! Giant Snowman 13:59, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

@Pincheira22: I think I have fixed these, you may still come across a couple. @Ermocrate: please bear in mind if you create more cats like this (for Messina or whatever), you will need to remove the parent cats i.e Footballers from Sicily and Sportspeople from Messina, thanks. Crowsus (talk) 16:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

2022 AFC U-20 Women's Asian Cup qualification and 2022 AFC U-17 Women's Asian Cup qualification

I have nominated both of these articles through AfD process, on the basis that these were cancelled competitions as qualifiers for the 2022 AFC U-20 Women's Asian Cup and 2022 AFC U-17 Women's Asian Cup respectively, where all of the relevant information about the qualification process - that didnt happen - is already in the 'parent' articles, and therefore there is no need for 'daughter' articles on the qualification. Matilda Maniac (talk) 07:45, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for responding at AfD, @GiantSnowman:. Matilda Maniac (talk) 22:42, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Player released on 31 December 2021

If a player is released at midnight of the turn of the year from 31 December 2021 to 1 January 2022, should their infobox say 20XX–2021 or 20XX–2022? Paul Vaurie (talk) 20:54, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

2021. Contract will have expired at 23:59 31 December RedPatch (talk) 21:11, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Have you got an example? It seems quite unlikely as a thing, because clubs aren't open at midnight on New Year's. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:21, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

There doesn't have to be someone watching over the contract as it expires, so without knowing the fine print it is difficult to say at what exact time it takes effect. Without any clarifying information I'd definitely put 2021 in cases like this. Spike 'em (talk) 21:26, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Released and contract expiration are different things. Did the club announce the player being released at exactly 00:00 on 1 January (highly unlikely), or did their contract expire on 31 December/1 January? I'd assume the club announced for how long the contract lasted when they signed him. As per Lee above, having a practical example would help. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:37, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

For players playing in calendar year seasons (MLS, Sweden, Ireland etc.) we have always put the year/season they were contracted, not the exact date they were released (often unknown). Giant Snowman 21:53, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

2021, no question. Can we please use some WP:COMMONSENSE here? I cannot seriously believe that's even a discussion. -BlameRuiner (talk) 22:20, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

contract obviously ends 31st december, 23:59 at latest.Muur (talk) 23:45, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

When I played non-league football years ago I actually did have one contract end on 31 December, I have no idea if there was a time written on it know. Govvy (talk) 00:06, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

What about for players who were transferred in January but did not make an appearance for their previous club in January, like Yaw Yeboah or Ricardo Pepi? I have always written their end date as, in this case, "2021" rather than "2022" because that is what I have almost always seen, but wasn't sure what was standard practice. Jay eyem (talk) 04:40, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

If the transfer happened in the January, then obviously the player was still contracted to his previous club into the new year, so the infobox should say 2022 for those players, not 2021. It doesn't matter if they didn't make any appearances in the new year, we base club years on when they were contracted. – Pee Jay 10:24, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

So we should have 2020 for players like Takumi Minamino then? His transfer to Liverpool was announced in mid December but he wasn't allowed to be come an official player until the transfer window opened. And what about players like Dani Alves? He joined Barca in the autumn but wasn't eligible until the last couple of weeks, also due to the transfer window. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 10:50, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

That would make sense to me. It all depends on when the player's registration actually changes hands. Two teams can agree a transfer pretty much whenever they like, but the dates we give should reflect when the transfer actually took place. – Pee Jay 11:15, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

For players leaving a club which uses a calendar year season, use the last season (so 2021). Giant Snowman 12:34, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

Right so the calendar year league bit is what I was wondering. Both of those cases are a player either joining a calendar year league (Yeboah) or leaving one (Pepi). I mostly follow and edit such leagues, which is why I asked. There seem to be two minds on this and wasn't sure what was the consensus. Jay eyem (talk) 15:44, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

A player playing in MLS/Sweden/Ireland etc. - if they are released after the 2021 season, the end date in the infobox should be '2021', even if they for some reason leave later than that (as long as it is before the 2022 season starts, obviously). Same applies for players sold in the early stages of the next year. Giant Snowman 16:02, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree. A Norwegian player who is sold in early 2022, should have his spell with the Norwegian club end in 2021. This is how information is conveyed most clearly. Geschichte (talk) 12:27, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

User:Margheret and User:Lilianasri

Is anyone else getting déjà vu looking at these contributions? The page moves without consensus and focus on Saudi Arabia makes me think that it's Mhsohaib who I only know as User:Margheret and User:Lilianasri. I'm trying to start an SPI but I don't have anything solid. Does anyone more familiar with this long-term vandal notice anything that makes this a WP:DUCK or shows that it's in fact a different person entirely? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:45, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Definitely a deja vu. Look at his first talk page message :) But the solid evidence would be that he edits the exact same articles or employ the exact same writing style. Or IP evidence of course. I started a checkuser for another incarnacion (insockation) after Lilianasri but before this one, where it surfaced that some of the recreations were under slightly different article names. It might be suspicious that a page was started under the misspelt name Saad Al-nasser, was it to avoid G4 following Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Saad Al Nasser? Geschichte (talk) 12:31, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Coaching staff

Seriously? We need to know who the physiotherapist is for national teams (Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/National_teams#Current_coaching_staff)? This has been taken to absurd lengths now. See Ghana_national_football_team#Current_technical_staff; we now list masseurs, video analysts and equipment officers? Why is it not enough to list the headcoach and maybe key assistants? Why not list water boys, towel warmers, and janitors? There's got to be a breaking point here somewhere. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:34, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Agree, they should all be removed. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:57, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I say only include staff if they have their own article.--Echetus Xe 21:26, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Most key assistant coaches at a National level will likely be former players or who have managed large clubs, and may have articles anyway. Same with a Technical Director of Football or equivalent. I would draw the line there. My related issue in editing Australian second and third division local team articles - where likely not even the head coach is particularly notable - is that they also list a whole tribe of physios, reserve team coaches, youth team coaches. These articles often edited in the main by an enthusiastic club member. I would much prefer that they only listed the senior men's team coach and senior women's team coach, and draw the line there. Matilda Maniac (talk) 21:45, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

If a reliable source details the staff, why shouldn't we? Giant Snowman 22:06, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I would say if we have a reliable/official source listing them, I don't see any harm. However, if a source is not provided, then the entire section may be removed. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 22:17, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

#BecauseWP:INDISCRIMINATE. Just because we can verify something doesn't mean it belongs in the encyclopedia. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:21, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Remove all but head and assistant coaches. Kante4 (talk) 23:21, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:NOTEVERYTHING and/or WP:NOTDIRECTORY Information should not be included in this encyclopedia solely because it is true or useful.Spike 'em (talk) 23:48, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

A list of key staff for a professional club/national team is not 'indiscriminate'. Giant Snowman 09:39, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think many people care who the team's dietician is... Also, it's not adequately sourced, it's "sourced" by a dead link from the official website, so isn't verifiable anyway. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:39, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

that's why I said key staff... Giant Snowman 10:50, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I think that the key lies in the section heading: Coaching staff. Any positions not geared towards coaching players are not relevant to the section. Felixsv7 (talk) 10:56, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

So you would include performance analysts and development coaches etc. but not 'Head of Scouting'? Giant Snowman 12:31, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Ah I'd going just Head Coach, Assistant coaches and goalkeeping coaches but it doesn't boil my blood either way. Felixsv7 (talk) 12:46, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Head Coach, Assistant coaches and goalkeeping coaches, with the occasional oddity like when Liverpool hired a Thomas Gronnemark as "Throw in" coach. But IMHP, physios, etc... shouldn't be included. --dashiellx (talk) 13:36, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

For me, it also counts towards inclusion when the staff member is a known person. Norway's national team hired a former player as kit manager.[4] Now, a kit manager is usually far from notable, but since the person was known, it was written about in RS. Similarly, the Norwegian national team physios got a lot of media coverage during the team's heyday in the 1990s (not so much anymore...). This essentially echoes Giant Snowman's point above. Geschichte (talk) 12:36, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

EFL Trophy appearances for players out on loan

I have noticed that a number of players out on loan at non-league clubs have made appearances in the EFL Trophy for their parent club, e.g. Jake Hull and Aaron Cosgrave. Do the competition rules allow this (so the player remained on loan), or were the loans terminated and then re-granted? Giant Snowman 18:41, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the rules do allow players out on loan to play for their parent clubs. As per current seasons article Any player out on a long loan term at a National League, National League North, or National League South team can play as long as the loaning team agree to allow the player to return for the match. Spike 'em (talk) 19:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Lovely, thanks, I have amended the Cosgrave article accordingly. Giant Snowman 20:00, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

it was a new rule added this year I think, surprised to see teams actually using it.Muur (talk) 23:42, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I think Sweden also has loan rules that allows players to skip back and forth between their main team and loan team. Geschichte (talk) 12:37, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Colombian teams 2021 season

I'm currently creating an article for a Colombian player which played in Deportes Quindío, a team which played in both the Categoría Primera B and Categoría Primera A during the 2021 season. How should we list it in the charts? BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 14:52, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

1. Example 1:

Club	Season	League			Cup		Continental		Other		Total
Club	Season	Division	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals
Deportes Quindío	2021	Categoría Primera B / Categoría Primera A	X	X	X	X	—		—		X	X

2. Example 2:

Club	Season	League			Cup		Continental		Other		Total
Club	Season	Division	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals
Deportes Quindío	2021	Categoría Primera B	X	X	X	X	—		—		X	X
Deportes Quindío	2021	Categoría Primera A	X	X	X	X	—		—		X	X

BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 14:55, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Second one. You might want to add a footnote explaining why they changed divisions in mid-season. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:06, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Agree, second one. I would imagine this scenario should be reasonably common in countries that have 2 tournaments per season (which lots of South Americans countries do). Joseph2302 (talk) 15:10, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@Joseph2302: Well, yes and no hahaha. A lot of South American leagues do have "two tournaments" (Apertura and Clausura) but promotions are often decided at the end of the Clausura. As far as I know, only Colombia adopted this style, and only in this edition, which is very strange BTW. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 15:14, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd assumed it would have been because of the Covid. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:32, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

On another note, could we stop adding the "Other" column unless we actually have something to insert in said column? I.e. not add "other" as default? Geschichte (talk) 12:38, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

It shouldn't be standard practice to do so anyway, per the MOS ("inappropriate columns can be omitted"). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:48, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Added years with no apps to the international stats table?

Bergenoslo (talk · contribs) is adding years to the stats table of Karim Benzema (lot of 0/0, see diff), where he did not made an appearance. I always thought to omit the years in which a player did not appear in a match for the national team. What do other editors think? Kante4 (talk) 09:21, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Remove: I don't see any valid reason to include those rows if anyone looks at Jack Butland for example. 46.149.249.106 (talk) 10:10, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with adding those rows. It makes it clear they haven't just been left out by accident and confirms the player actually made zero appearances that year. – Pee Jay 10:12, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I think it's cruft, empty data, and for the confirmation mentioned above, it should be enough to see that the total number caps checks out with the year-by-year caps. Geschichte (talk) 12:23, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I think 0/0 is fine as long as the player was benched or at least called up for a proper fixture or tournament (not just extended prelim squad). If he or she wasn't even called up then no row needed. --BlameRuiner (talk) 12:49, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree with PJ: I'd keep the 0/0 entries regardless of whether they were called up or not. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:45, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I think the zeros are useful. Shows that it wasn't consistent representation. Especially for players with many caps. Now if it was a player with 2 caps and they had appearances in 2006 and then 2014,obviously that would be unnecessary (I only bring that up because I did see that in an article once with a 10 year table with 1s on either end and then a stream of zeros). RedPatch (talk) 15:28, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

In the example of Benzema, would it be worth merging all five years in which he gained no caps into one row? That would still highlight the point that he gained no caps for five years before being recalled from the wilderness but without the repetitive 0/0 rows....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:46, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I think it's a good compromise. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:06, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

So like this? Still not a fan of adding years with (0/0) but i go with the result. Kante4 (talk) 17:48, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

National team	Year	Apps	Goals
France	2016–2020	0	0

Sources for international matches

Which sources for international matches can be used? Is eu-football.info reliable? Dr Salvus 21:10, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

What sort of information about the matches are you trying to source? Just the fact that they happened/the results? Or something more detailed? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:15, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

@ChrisTheDude I'm searching a source just for international matches for results and scorers. Dr Salvus 21:17, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm guessing it's Italy you are looking for specifically - in that case use RSSSF, which is definitely reliable -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:22, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

ChrisTheDude, thanks so much. Yeah, I was looking for Italy. Dr Salvus 21:26, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

National-Football-Teams.com is the go-to for me, usually. Paul Vaurie (talk) 22:38, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

I usually use NFT and GSA for international stats. For Italy, you can use the FIGC website. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 23:37, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Agustín Rogel

Agustín Rogel played one match for Toulouse B in 2020. I don't know where to put it in the infobox because he was then loaned out to Estudiantes de La Plata. Help. Paul Vaurie (talk) 22:37, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Done. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 23:40, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

EFL Trophy Under-21 appearances

...are meant to be listed separately (effectively as a different team) right? I notice that's not the case on 2021–22 Aston Villa F.C. season, where they're counted towards total team appearances, and in the stats sections of the players involved this season. Haven't checked previous seasons, could be the case there too. HornetMike (talk) 00:12, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Correct, the teams are fielded as under-21/23 teams rather than the first team. Mattythewhite (talk) 00:24, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

2021 Africa Cup of Nations squads

There is a discrepancy between the list of players at 2021 Africa Cup of Nations squads and the squad templates within Category:2021 Africa Cup of Nations squad navigational boxes. Can those editors who have been working on the article/templates - @Microwave Anarchist, SuperJew, MonFrontieres, Ben5218, Ortizesp, Ampimd, Paul Vaurie, and محمد أمين الطرابلسي: - please correct what needs correcting? Giant Snowman 22:01, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Do you mean there are errors, or are there not enough templates? Paul Vaurie (talk) 22:04, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

I mean that the players listed in the article and the players listed in the templates do not match up. Giant Snowman 22:08, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

They should match what is listed in the official squad list. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 22:10, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Right, I noticed that. As for the Tunisia squad template that I created, it's correct. محمد أمين الطرابلسي (talk) 22:20, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

@Microwave Anarchist: That CAF source is already outdated. For example, where it says TotalEnergies AFCON 2021 - EQUATORIAL GUINEA [PDF], the PDF link says that player number 25 is Aitor Mbela, when in reality is Felipe Ovono as the former got injured and was replaced by the latter.[5][6][7] I guess similar errors are in the other PDFs.--MonFrontieres (talk) 23:58, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

@MonFrontieres: that was after the final squads were published so its not an error per se. If a player pulls out of the squad after the final squad, that can be sourced above the squad list. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 00:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

For the few templates I created, I used the squadlist at 2021 Africa Cup of Nations squads. I can recheck if we can confirm the squads on the page are finalized.--Ortizesp (talk) 02:17, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Doing my best to create and keep updated. It's all dynamic right now and I'm super busy IRL :) You're welcome to edit it yourself :) and I'd be happy to get more input on the disucssion at the talk page regarding the squad list order. --SuperJew (talk) 06:29, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticising - you're all doing great work on this! Giant Snowman 09:35, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Saw this one a bit too late, I'm also busy IRL. After fixing Morocco's squad template (replaced Badr Benoun by Achraf Bencharki) I checked all squads' templates and compared them to the players' list located at 2021 Africa Cup of Nations squads, and can confirm that all of them are matched and updated now. Ben5218 (talk) 11:42, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

TV info in season articles?

I noticed on the Brighton article for this season that the game summaries include info about whether each match was televised (e.g. “Live on Sky Sports”). Apparently this is a thing that exists on multiple articles, but my question is, should it? – Pee Jay 00:42, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

No it should not. Trivia information. Kante4 (talk) 11:52, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The main article - say 2021-22 Premier League should probably have some info on broadcasters, but not the teams, unless it's super important, such as a game being moved for TV, or the windfall for a lower league match. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:58, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Well we have the guideline WP:TVGUIDE, I've seen a lot of articles with information on what a match might be view on. That information will expire and becomes pretty much useless. I don't think we should have anything like that on any article. I have pretty much just left stuff alone, but more than happy to remove those notes. Govvy (talk) 12:03, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Flag links

I'm wondering if there is consensus as to what wikilinks, if any, we should provide for country names that appear next to their respective flags in lists? I ask as @Crowsus: recently changed the links at List of Premier League winning players to reflect the countries' national associations, when previously they linked to the country pages where the FIFA code was used and were unlinked when the country name was written in full. I've also noticed that we're linking to national associations on our squad template. Was there consensus for this? It seems odd to me, as nationality and national association are not one and the same. With MOS:EGG in mind, I don't think most readers would click a link to Trinidad and Tobago, for example, and expect to be taken to our page for that country's national association. Thanks, Mattythewhite (talk) 00:55, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

I really don't see the point of linking flags to associations. They should be set to nationality in my opinion. The idea of clicking a flag icon is the see what that flag belongs too. Setting the Union Jack to an association is just wrong. Even the flag of England, that icon should direct to England. Govvy (talk) 09:59, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Surely on a football page, users are expecting to be taken to the national team of that nation? At least that is how I'd have it set up. Felixsv7 (talk) 10:01, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

National team would seem to make more sense IMO than national FA (the change made by Crowsus was to link each flag to the FA of that country, eg the Wales flag linked to Football Association of Wales, not Wales national football team) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:15, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

That table of winners by nationality is WP:CRUFT in my opinion. It's unsourced and I doubt any actual RS actually comment on it as a whole. Additionally, linking a flag to an organisation is both an WP:EASTEREGG link, and also not the logo of the organisation we are linking to. In the above example, the Welsh national football team and Association don't use the national flag to visualise themselves. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:23, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Linking to a national team makes more sense, but it doesn't make sense when a player hasn't played for a national team. Those that click on a flag icon are more likely to want to know what nationality that flag is far. A flag icon should goto an article on that nation. Flags to FAs and national teams just over complicates things if you ask me. Govvy (talk) 11:52, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

The country articles are the most relevant destinations for links in nationality columns, and even then I'd only include the links when it aids accessibility, such as when the FIFA code is used. It would be outright misleading to link to a national team article for a player who hasn't even represented that national team. Mattythewhite (talk) 00:16, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

It is just as misleading to link to the country though. There are countless examples of footballers who are nationality A but have represented country B. Linking to the FA is probably the most neutral way. And it's not rocket science to work out which country or territory any given association represents. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 22:30, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

How is it misleading? Baring in mind that we are talking about sporting country, not nationality. It's much more misleading to like a flag of a country to an organisation. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:47, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

That's exactly the point, we're talking about sporting nationality. If someone is Scottish but represents Canada because of their grandparents, it's misleading to link to the country. There are players who had never been to the country they represent before being called up. Linking directly to the country implies that the person is that nationality when that isn't always the case. Linking to the association or national team is unambiguous, they represent that country but they aren't necessarily that nationality. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 23:33, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

How can a player represent a country without having its nationality..? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 01:05, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The eligibility criteria mean that you don't have to be any specific nationality to play for a national team. If a grandparent is English and moves to Australia and that's where their kids and grandkids are born and grow up, the grandkids aren't English but they could still play for England. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The grandkids would still need to apply for British citizenship though ("Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the association of that country"), at least according to FIFA eligibility rules. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:31, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

TLDR version flag use doesn't make sense, and used inconsistently, now seeking consensus to have flags in football articles changed to FA instead of straight to nation article wherever NT flag link would not be appropriate. Crowsus (talk) 13:29, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

There are several aspects to this. Firstly, I assumed some sort of consensus was in place about linking flags to FA which was introduced on the Current Squad template (ie Template:Football squad player about 10 months ago, based on prior comments here: "Template:Football squad player has the ability to use a national variant as documented at Template:Flagicon/doc.". Here is the link referred to, which states "The second parameter is optional, and identifies a flag variant to be used instead of the standard flag. This is most often used for historical flags but can also be used to specify naval flags, sport-use flags, etc.". So that seems to be the history behind its use in that context. Not sure if editors didn't notice or care it was being used in that way. I would also point to this request I made in December regarding using the same parameter in a different template - the point was raised by User:Spike 'em about consensus, I sought opinions to that end, but nobody wished to be involved, or again maybe missed it, and the request at the template itself was approved. The use of the FA itself as the link makes a lot of sense to me, because the alternatives are either: linking to the nation itself which is not desired as a general rule; having no link which makes the flag purely decorative and is also also a breach of regulations, particularly in the hundreds of football-related articles where flags are being used without accompanying labels); or link to the national team which only really makes sense in certain situations specifically relating to the team or players representing them. The FA can instead be taken in a much wider context referring to its member clubs or eligible players who may not have any connection to the national team itself, but are/were eligible as per MOS:SPORTFLAG. It makes no sense to me that on a player's article, let's say he has a birth nation, an adopted nation, moved to another country when he retired and died in a fourth place, and those places would all remain unlinked in his biography, but if he made 100 appearances for Real Madrid, played for both sides in Milan, finished top scorer in a French season or got a Bundesliga hat-trick, those articles would all have little flags next to his name linking to that country. There should really be no such links, particularly if it doesn't have any relevance to the subject (e.g hat-trick lists). But if editors want them to stay on the articles for informative reasons (or let's be honest, aesthetic reasons in some cases), it's surely more informative next to a football player or club to link to that nation in the context of the sport, i.e the FA/federation. I agree there is an element of MOS:EGG there but that is also true with the huge list of unlabelled flags and nobody seems bothered about that, and besides, a click to the FA page is only a further click in the lead from the country article itself - a body specifically designated to represent a nation being one of the contexts where a link to that nation is appropriate (not all have this link BTW, but the Trinidad NT and FA articles do, and so does - using a random selection Romania's NT and FA. Using the FA is also something that can be feasibly employed for the women's game without adjustment where national team links can't be. I would like to tag User:S.A. Julio on this as I know they have been using the FA flag link for the teams in international club tournament articles created in the last year or two, again this is obviously something I support and which seems to have been adopted without complaint, although again maybe it's just that nobody noticed. But I was reverted on that by User:Island92 on that when I changed the player flags to FA, as "When the flag is next to the player it refers to his nationality. When the flag is next to the Team it refers to its Federation" - again this makes no sense to me. Either a club and a player represent a nation as a defined by a flag link, or they represent the nation's football federation. I don't see how one can be one way and the other a different way. And again this is both EGGY - the same flag goes to two different links on the same article - and contradictory to the squad template where it is the players' flags going to the FA. I feel all the football-related flag links other than those directly relating to international competitions should go to the FAs, as they are the bodies controlling the national teams (and therefore overseeing eligible players as defined by the flags) and controlling the domestic competitions in which the clubs take part. I wish to formally seek consensus on the matter, so if declaring that now is not sufficient for the process to begin, could someone please advise of the necessary steps to take. And it is potentially a big editing change (though basically unchanged for readers who don't click flag links) so please advise of any other forums and projects that should be notified, or would be a better place to 'host' it. And if the decision goes against me, can we please at least then have the goddamn templates and UEFA club articles amended so they all have the same function, for consistency?? Thanks. Crowsus (talk) 13:29, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

@Crowsus: Don't mean to be rude, but that's a big chunk of text above, a lot of editors will take one look and won't bother reading. That will just put people off from responding to you. I feel that MOS:SPORTFLAG is poorly written, it's down as a guideline, it's not strictly wiki-law now is it. Govvy (talk) 10:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I've put the short version further up now. Crowsus (talk) 13:48, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd contend that not a single person clicking through on a football player's nationality in a football table wants to be taken through to that nation's football association. A link to the national team of the related sport surely makes the most logical sense. Felixsv7 (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

No it doesn't, for reasons myself and others have explained above. But I'll explain again: a 16-year-old part time male player has almost no connection to the senior men's national team, and a 16-year-old part time female player has even less. But they are connected to the national body that runs the national team (the article for which has a link to the country itself and the national team if that's where the reader would rather go). Crowsus (talk) 00:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

English flag pointing to the Football Association violates WP:EASTEREGG, as well as probably therefore MOS:FLAG itself. One person unilaterally changing to this is disruptive, and should be reverted. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:08, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

if you want to refer to policy links, the unlabelled nationality icons used on many, many pages for top scorers, player lists, rivalry stats etc violate both MOS:FLAG and WP:OVERLINK. The bare minimum that should be done on every one is the change I have just made at Supercopa de España to show the three-letter codes. As for reverting, in the first instance you should probably try to get the changes at the squad template changed first because that currently links to the FA for every single active player in every single team due to its coding. Crowsus (talk) 00:20, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

And I'd say the changes made to Supercopa de España look awful. I just don't believe that all flags (in a table) need to be accompanied with the country's name - as per the example listed on MOS:FLAG. It is there as a quick reference and can be clicked through if the user is unfamiliar with the country. Yes, this may violate some rule, I'm just saying that it looks terrible - especially the three code variant. Felixsv7 (talk) 10:27, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

GA community assessment

Do you think Cambodia women's national football team still meets WP:GA? ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 03:44, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

It would probably be easier to fix up than go through GAR. On that note, if they've never entered the world cup, etc... Why are we mentioning them in a table? If there is no current squad, why do we have a table for it? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The World Cup table is still useful, as they are eligible to participate in it. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:28, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm eligible to play in the World Cup, doesn't mean you would report on all of the previous World Cups that I didn't partake in. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:36, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

I also noticed that the version which was promoted to GA didn't have all of the almost empty sections. There's literally no point listing tournaments they didn't ever enter, as that's ridiculous. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:54, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

That's because the team didn't even exist back in 2012; they played their first game in 2018. I find it weird that an article about a non-existing NT was promoted to GA. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:25, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

C'Chartres Football

Hello. This club has a weird name. I need help finding it's common name for infoboxes & stuff - is it Chartres or C'Chartres? Paul Vaurie (talk) 02:12, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

It's C'Chartres. Their website shows this RedPatch (talk) 03:43, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Football squad template change

Just wanted to notify the project that a couple of undiscussed visual updates were done today to Template:Football squad, which affected the look of all club squad templates (they all inherit the code from this template), which have not been touched for more than 10 years, I think. Pinging the editor @Charlesaaronthompson: here just in case. --BlameRuiner (talk) 10:35, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

If the visual update is made on the squad template, shouldn't it be replicated to Template:Football manager history as well? BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 13:15, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I'm the editor who made these changes over at Template:Football squad. I did so, because I wanted to enlarge the size of the border parameters in the template. The reason why I wanted to enlarge the size of the border parameters was because I wanted to ensure that the wiki-code markup for Template:Football squad resembled and was similar to all the football club templates on this project. My question is this: do my changes go against the established consensus? If so, I have no problem reverting back these changes. However, I'm fully willing to engage in the WP:BRD cycle and fully willing to engage in a discussion to find and abide by the established consensus. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 04:55, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

OK, I honestly expected this change would raise a little more eyebrows than just mine, guess I was wrong. Anyway, I don't think this change was justified because all football-related templates were already consistent in having a 1px border, because they all inherited the code from the more generic football navbox. Club squads, national team squads on major tournaments, manager histories - they all have (had) 1px border. Now, I don't know if it's just me and my browser, but after the change I sometimes see some of the borders rendered slightly differently (upper one thicker than the bottom). Anyway, I propose to revert this change in the spirit of not touching thing that already worked fine. --BlameRuiner (talk) 11:22, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

I have reverted the change - not because I have any opposition to it, but because it was undiscussed and affect hundreds/thousands of templates. We need to discuss and agree. Giant Snowman 11:41, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: can you also revert changes at Module:Football manager history? I tried but I don't have rights. --BlameRuiner (talk) 08:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Done Black Kite (talk) 08:29, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Is first team needed in this infobox

On the page for Charles-Andreas Brym, in the infobox there is a section for both Lille II and Lille. Is the first team needed or can it be removed. He did go on loan, so would it be incorrect to show it "from the second team"? He never appeared for he Lille first team (not even on the bench). RedPatch (talk) 16:00, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think Lille is needed. Of course, B-teams do not loan players, but since he never did feature with the first team in any extent, I would remove it. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 16:29, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

If he's only ever played for the II team, no need to have the first team, even if he has been loaned out. Giant Snowman 16:38, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Reserve teams can't loan players, so the parent club should remain imo. It's not too different to joining Lille in 2018, and being promptly loaned out the same transfer session to another club, without featuring for Lille. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I think Lille should stay - he signed a professional contract with Lille, not with Lille II. --SuperJew (talk) 16:47, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

I would include the first team if they have signed a professional contract and/or been involved in a matchday squad. Mattythewhite (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Looks like there's no consensus on this. My initial thought was to remove it, since lots of players sign pro contracts with the "first" team, but never end up playing for the first team so we don't include it and only include the second team. RedPatch (talk) 17:11, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

The general editing trend is to REMOVE the club for which he has no appearances in this scenario. The player can be loaned from the reserve side, there is no issue with that. The reserve side is part of the club just as much as is the professional side; note that it's the club loans out the player. Paul Vaurie (talk) 02:14, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

According to Lille itself, he was a Lille professional player, and Lille (not the reserve team) sent him on loan to Belenenses. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:46, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Edits at 2021–22 Liga 1 (Indonesia)

Hi all, I want to ask. This user Skyblueshaun is editing the league table, but he put like (3 of 5 matches played) in update date text. Is that even necessary? Before, I always put only the date, even though there are several games not played yet on that date. What do you all think? Please enlighten me. I don't want to involved in edit war. Thanks. Wira rhea (talk) 10:45, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Pinging Mattythewhite, GiantSnowman Wira rhea (talk) 10:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think a round-by-round basis is needed. Giant Snowman 10:57, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: Is the double negative intended? Robby.is.on (talk) 10:59, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

no, sorry! Giant Snowman 11:00, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

@Wira rhea it's unnecessary Dr Salvus 11:00, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

If you don't mention how many of the day's matches have been played, how do you know when it was updated (especially not to add double data on the same match or miss a match that wasn't added yet)? --SuperJew (talk) 11:12, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Simply update it once all the days matches have been played. No live updates! Giant Snowman 11:13, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

By that logic, maybe we should update only once the round is finished? Or only once the tournament is finished? Updating after a match ends is not a live update - live update is when the result can still change. --SuperJew (talk) 12:02, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

It is necessary, it's being used in all the top leagues and how do you know when it was last updated without going into the page history and looking for it. It helps other users when they go to edit they know where to update from. --Skyblueshaun (talk) 11:19, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Add a date, like we do for footballer stats - {{updated|matches played 18 January 2022}}. Giant Snowman 11:44, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think it's such a bad idea, especially for international tournaments with worldwide visibility (e.g. the World Cup). Reverting upon reverting isn't going to be very useful; adding the amount of games updated is a good compromise imo. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 11:46, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

only if you specify which games have been played and which are the 2 missing... Giant Snowman 11:48, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

It's quite obvious that if it says "3 of 5", it means the first 3. --SuperJew (talk) 12:02, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

If the date isn't enough, why not put the time in like in a footballer's infobox? Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 12:22, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

2021–22 Serie A#League table and 2021–22 Serie A#Results both use date... Giant Snowman 12:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

WP:OTHER. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:54, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Cute argument. Dates also used 2021–22 Premier League, 2021–22 Ligue 1, 2021–22 La Liga and 2021–22 Bundesliga. I haven't bothered checking any others. Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/League season seems to be quiet on the matter but it is clear what the established standard is for major leagues. Giant Snowman 15:58, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Doesn't rule out the fact that we can discuss to find another (better) solution. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:05, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

RfC to abolish NSPORTS

Please see Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Abolish the current version of NSPORTS. Giant Snowman 22:09, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Template colours

Hello! I see that the template colours for the National squad templates have been changed without consensus or without discussing it. For example the Danish and Belgian and other templates have been changed numerous amount of times without discussing. Can you see if you can revert back to the established colours. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 14:44, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Seems like it's one IP user doing them (and I notice I already complained at them a couple of months ago for random colour changes on cricket templates). I've reverted Template:Denmark national football team and Template:Belgium national football team. Will notify them of this thread (since you can't use ping on an IP address). Joseph2302 (talk) 14:49, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello! The template colours on the national templates must they always be defaulted?. The colours should be for the team colours etc. There is always a foreground colour, background colour and a bordercolour. Regarding the Cameroon template colours or the Austrian and or Hungarian. And the chilean or Bulgarian if necessary. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 15:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Personnel and kits for the 1990/91 and 1991/92 Football League First Division

Hello! Can you add a section for personnel and kits for the 1990/91 and 1991/92 Football League First Division seasons?. It would be valuable information to have. As well as team captains as well. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 16:03, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Copa de los Balcanes 1929-1931

Hola, en la página Copa de los Balcanes 1929-1931 hay un problema. La plantilla utilizada en el cuadro donde describe los puntos y goles obtenidos por cada selección participante no es la que se debería ocupar ya que los puntos que dan son 3 por partido cuando en la fuente de RSSSF solo da 2 puntos por partido — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lanzaguisantes carnivoro (talk • contribs) 23:32, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Already fixed, 2 points for each win now. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 00:18, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Starting line-ups

Hello! Can you check if you can get line-up images for European Cup and national cup finals?. For instance the Cup Winners' Cup finals from 1961 until 1963, 1969 until 1972, 1975, 1980, 1985, 1986 and 1989. English Cup finals from 1954 until 1990. UEFA Cup finals from 1972 until 1992. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 16:17, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Didn't someone ask about this a couple of weeks ago? As I said at the time, if anyone can provide a reliable source for the formation used by both teams, I can make line-up graphics for any match. However, I won't make them if the formations can't be sourced. Do you have sources for those games? – Pee Jay 21:33, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

@PeeJay: same person, I think -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:30, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Eugenio Pizzuto

Can someone please take a look at the Eugenio Pizzuto infobox? He played for Lille from 2020 to 2022, but I'm not sure if he was part of the youth team, reserve team, or senior team. Paul Vaurie (talk) 00:00, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

@Paul Vaurie: Seems to have played for the B-team and U19 only, not a single appearance (even on the bench) for the first team. IMO, we should remove the first team from the infobox... BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 00:21, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

According to Soccerway, he was called up nine times to the first team (0 caps), and only once to the reserves (1 cap). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:56, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Requesting protection of Chancel Mbemba

He's been embroiled in an age controversy, and the comedians are coming out to change his birthdate. May we protect the page?--Ortizesp (talk) 14:40, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@Ortizesp: Request it at WP:RfPP. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 14:44, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, requested.--Ortizesp (talk) 14:52, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Charley McMillan-Lopez

Charley McMillan-Lopez signed for Prestatyn Town this week. A bit of a stir - his now deleted YouTube showreel claimed his playing for Wrexham and Braintree Town, and Wrexham fans on twitter claiming he was never at the club and goals shown on showreel scored not by him but another player. NFT shows him as playing for a bunch of clubs and replicated in the wiki article, but no references. I found evidence of him on the bench for one match at Ashford United and the web throws up a profile at East Thurrock. Also claims to have been at Port Vale, Ebbsfleet and clubs in Estonia and Albania. Anyone else able to find any sources to prove any of the other claimed clubs - including Darford, Sutton United and Tottenham as a youth player. Have provided more detailed references for the two international appearances for the BVI.

Oddly, since this all blew up, showreel removed along with his LinkedIn profile with claimed clubs - and Prestatyn Town have removed/ amended their original tweet Zanoni (talk) 18:33, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

See Wrexham fan forum Zanoni (talk) 18:53, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

I have never seen the name before. When I first saw the article I assumed he must have been at Port Vale when they had a "development squad" of under-21s, however that was during the 2013–14 season. There's just no way a 20/21 year old player would be at the club during the 2016–17 season without getting mentioned in articles, unless he was an unnamed trialist or something. He is supposed to have spent three years with Ebbsfleet United but there's no mention of him anywhere! Supposed to have been with East Thurrock United but does not seem to have played a game. There are no confirmed sightings of him before he was an unused substitute for Ashford United in an FA Cup tie in September 2020, just unsubstantiated links on National Football Teams and TransferMarket.--Echetus Xe 10:19, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

A 17 year old from (seemingly) the London area going off to start his pro career in Albania, of all places, also seems a tad unlikely (albeit not impossible, I guess)..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:24, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Likewise there are 0 mentions of him in relation to Estonian club. --BlameRuiner (talk) 10:45, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Adebayo Akinfenwa started his career in Lithuania in fairness! Giant Snowman 21:42, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments - without any reliable sources prior to the East Thurrock link (had already added to article earlier today) what's the view on deleting all the youth clubs and any clubs before Thurrock? Zanoni (talk) 14:09, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, sounds sensible given the clear concerns. Giant Snowman 21:42, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Done Zanoni (talk) 22:39, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

GAR for Burundi women's national football team

Burundi women's national football team has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:01, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

It's not even close with all these empty section. Who nominates these :-) -Koppapa (talk)

TBF the article was promoted to GA status a full ten years ago and looked very different at the time..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:34, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Do have a look to Zanzibar women's national football team. The article doesn't even deserve a C class but is a GA Dr Salvus 08:40, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

I had a listen to the spoken versions of both of those articles and they were utter rubbish so I deleted them. – Pee Jay 13:06, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

What is the fascination with adding in blank and often unsourceable sections? If you can't find the information then personally I'd not include the section at all. That would greatly improve the quality of the article and it can always be added back when the information is available. (And that doesn't mean you can't add prose outlining why there isn't a current squad for example). Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:35, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

This type of behaviour (adding empty sections) is being done by Amara94. BRICK93 used to also do the same. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:52, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

Please do leave comments at the reassessment page. The problems extend beyond what is empty. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:50, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Dylan Williams page move

Hey guys just put a request to move this page Talk:Dylan_Williams#Requested_move_22_January_2022--ParkingTheBus (talk) 01:43, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

De-colored club templates

It looks like there is a motion in progress to remove colors from the club and other templates based on this and this. Should FOOTY be concerned? I love having the colors but I don't know if I'm able to justify them properly. --BlameRuiner (talk) 20:32, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

That first discussion related to removing coats of arms from navboxes, not colours. MOS:DECOR (which relates to icons like coats of arms) clearly states that they should "serve as visual cues that aid the reader's comprehension" which colours in squad templates etc. clearly do, while WP:NAVCOLOR (which relates to navbox colours) says "There should be justification for a template to deviate from the colors and styles", which, again colours for sports teams clearly aid navigation. If you see people removing them then revert. Giant Snowman 21:17, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

That template (green text on red background) will fail MOS:CONTRAST, as most colour blind people won't be able to read it. That being said, coloured templates seem fine to me, as long as there is enough contrast between colours in them. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

yes, good point, I remember a discussion about contrasting colours here a few months ago? Giant Snowman 07:45, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Pending proposal to declare NSPORTS an invalid argument at AfD

A new proposal is now pending to add language to NSPORT providing, among other things, that "meeting [NSPORTS and NFOOTY] would not serve as a valid keep argument in a deletion discussion." If you have views on this proposal, one way or the other, please feel free to add your comments at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Subproposal 1 (NSPORT). Cbl62 (talk) 14:44, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Team captains

Hello! Can you check regarding team captains for different World Cup teams?. In 1990 f.ex USA used Tony Meola not Mike Windischmann as captain. Stuart Kennedy was used as Scotlands captain for two matches in the 1978 FIFA World Cup and Archie Gemmill was used as captain for one match. Fuad Amin was the Saudi captain for two matches in the 1998 FIFA World Cup. Mohammed Al Jawad was Saudi captain for two match during the 1994 FIFA World Cup. Georges Brégy was the Swiss captain the whole 1994 FIFA World Cup. Paolo Maldini was Italy's captain for the rest of the 1994 World Cup because of Franco Baresi's injury. Check the templates and the squads section. It is important that the teams have the right captains. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 11:14, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Are you talking about, say 1990 FIFA World Cup squads? These list the national captain at the time, not who took over as being captain for certain matches. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 11:25, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello! Yes, I was talking about the 1990 FIFA World Cup squads?. Many teams changes captains accordingly. But the captain at the time is an important thing. The squad section for the 1994 FIFA World Cup and other tournaments. But I think that the list is precise though.

Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 12:43, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm not even fully convinced that captaincy is all that important, as, like you say, captains can change per match, if they aren't available or are subbed. We certainly shouldn't be listing all players who took this position though, that's ridiculous. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:39, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello! Lee Vilenski. No, This is a position which is an important position for any team. The position is handed to the player before the match but when the captain leaves the pitch the position is changed. After all that position isn't too important. I acknowledge that this thing can be ridiculous. Thanks anyway. --88.89.14.227 (talk) 16:22, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello! I think that the sources for these captains can vary a bit. FIFA and Allworldcup do cite different captains. That can be conflicting sometimes though.

Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 16:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Notes for National Cup and League Cup columns in stats table (pt.2)

Since this discussion didn't end in a clear consensus, can we get more input regarding the use of notes in the club career statistics tables for "National Cup" and "League Cup" columns?

With notes
Club	Season	League			National Cup^[a]		League Cup^[b]		Europe		Total
Club	Season	Division	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals
Celtic	2019–20	Scottish Premiership	3	1	0	0	1	0	0	0	4	1
	2020–21	Scottish Premiership	1	0	0	0	0	0	1^[c]	0	2	0
	Total		4	1	0	0	1	0	1	0	6	1
Manchester United	2020–21	Premier League	3	0	1	0	—		4^[c]	1	8	1
	2021–22	Premier League	0	0	0	0	0	0	1^[d]	0	1	0
	Total		3	0	1	0	0	0	5	1	9	1
Career total			7	1	1	0	1	0	6	1	15	2

^ Includes Scottish Cup, FA Cup
^ Includes Scottish League Cup, EFL Cup
^ ^a ^b Appearance(s) in UEFA Europa League
^ Appearance(s) in UEFA Champions League

Without notes
Club	Season	League			National Cup		League Cup		Europe		Total
Club	Season	Division	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals	Apps	Goals
Celtic	2019–20	Scottish Premiership	3	1	0	0	1	0	0	0	4	1
	2020–21	Scottish Premiership	1	0	0	0	0	0	1^[a]	0	2	0
	Total		4	1	0	0	1	0	1	0	6	1
Manchester United	2020–21	Premier League	3	0	1	0	—		4^[a]	1	8	1
	2021–22	Premier League	0	0	0	0	0	0	1^[b]	0	1	0
	Total		3	0	1	0	0	0	5	1	9	1
Career total			7	1	1	0	1	0	6	1	15	2

^ ^a ^b Appearance(s) in UEFA Europa League
^ Appearance(s) in UEFA Champions League

I feel like the notes are definitely useful, and can't see how removing information is more beneficial than keeping it. The same way we have the league names, it makes sense to also have the cup names. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:27, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Notes are definitely helpful. My only question is whether it would be better as a Tooltip, but the information should definitely be available. Felixsv7 (talk) 19:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

New drafts

I've created two drafts on Draft:Giuliano Simeone and Draft:Eduardo Oliveira (football manager). I think they're a clear case of WP:TOOSOON, although I'm not sure if any of them may be an article due to WP:GNG. Could someone evaluate this, please? BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 06:09, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

not sure either are currently notable tbh. Giant Snowman 07:47, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Oliveira could be notable if he's managing in the Brazilian top tier. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 12:37, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree, Oliveira page is ready to be moved to mainspace IMO.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:29, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

List of Angola international footballers

I just came across this article and it is a complete mess and possibly the worst WP:NOTSTATS violation I've ever seen. It took me about 10 minutes to even work out what any of the columns represent. Can someone help fix this or is this just a case of destroying it and starting over. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 19:33, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm utterly stumped - what the heck do the square root symbols mean? Why do some of the numbers in the cells have black backgrounds and others not? What do the numbers at the top of each column represent? It's like some mad secret code..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 19:47, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Oh wow, that is confusing. Might be easier to wipe it and start again. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

@Valmir144: Tagging the main contributor to the article might help --SuperJew (talk) 21:09, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Agree with Stevie - this needs to be completely started from scratch. Giant Snowman 21:46, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Valmir seems to be the creator/maintainer of several lists with tables that are indecipherable to me at least. --SVTCobra 22:19, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the page to a more suitable format. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 02:19, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Haris Stamboulidis

Hi folks. Haris Stamboulidis is quite a mess. Maybe someone is in the mood for a cleanup? :-) Robby.is.on (talk) 22:55, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I'll do it, just give me half an hour. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 23:12, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Wow that is one poorly written and linked article. I'll take a look at the Colorado section after BR is done because every link to team and league is to the wrong one there on the current edit. RedPatch (talk) 23:33, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

BRD and I seem to have cleaned it up fairly well. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 01:38, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Stellar work, everyone. Fantastic! :-) Robby.is.on (talk) 01:41, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Good work, folks. I'm only doubtful about his stats... I could only find four apps for Colorado Rapids U23 in 2018, only one match for Melbourne City (U21) in 2015, and only one match for Heidelberg United (not so sure if it's the under-20 or the main team) in 2014. I'm inclined to believe that some of his stats are simply wrong. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 02:00, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Here's an additional 10 games played for Rapids U23 in 2017 which adds up to the 14 RedPatch (talk) 02:07, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Found the 11 for Melbourne City in 2015 here. RedPatch (talk) 02:23, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Found 10 for Heidleberg in 2014 here - the website only goes back to 2014, so perhaps the other 4 were in 2013.

Found the Aussie ones by going to the league standings, changing the year, clicking on the team, then clicking on squad/roster. RedPatch (talk) 02:27, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Request for input

Request for input at Danilo Pereira (footballer). The argument is WP:PRIMARYTOPIC or not. Paul Vaurie (talk) 05:39, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Navbox problem

Hi! I wanted to add the Summer Olympics squads (1908–1952) to the Sweden squads navigation box. When doing this, the "FIFA World Cup and European Championship finalists" navigation box disappears and a link to Template:Navboxes is shown. I've tried to fix this, but can't find anyting wrong. Would be nice if someone could take a look at it! // Mattias321 (talk) 15:59, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

It's in Category:Pages where post-expand include size is exceeded: which means there are too many complex template calls, or just plain too many template calls. See Help:Template#Template limits. Usual cure is to remove excess flags. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:40, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Jean-Marie Elie

Hello. Does Jean-Marie Elie's twenty-three year managerial reign at UST Equeurdreville qualify for the list of longest managerial reigns in association football page? Even if it was an amateur club? Paul Vaurie (talk) 05:37, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd say so, unless there's a disclaimer that the list is only for top division/pro teams.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:44, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Youth international footballers category

Is there any reason why the categories at Association football players by under-20, under-21 and under-23 national team can't be merged into the ones at Association football players by youth national team? We already have Olympic footballers by country, so I don't see the need for the under-X ones. The same goes for the women's categories. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:26, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

We have traditionally always had 'youth' for U16-U19, then 'U20/U21' as the senior youth category - but think U23/Olympic should be merged, although players can play at u23 level without being an Olympian. Giant Snowman 15:46, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Best not to forget that until 1976, U23 was the highest 'youth' category in European football, and in the UK has never had any connection with Olympic football, which didn't become an U23 competition until 1992. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

I wouldn't merge U23 with Olympic for the reasons above, but I don't see why U20/21/23 shouldn't be merged into youth. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:25, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, everything but Olympic should be merged to just youth. I never understood the U20/U21 seperation from the rest.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:45, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

BBC's Premier League team of the decade

Over the past week or so, there has been an effort to add BBC Premier League team of the decade as an official honour to player articles with the source being this: Premier League team of the decade: Who makes yours?. I do not believe it belongs because it is a poll among BBC readers and thus WP:USERGENERATED. I have tried to remove it per that policy for Sergio Agüero, the only applicable player in my watchlist, with pleas to discuss on the talk page. I keep being reverted with no discussion and inadequate edit summaries to convince me I am wrong. I also raised the issue on the Football/England taskforce talk page three days ago with no response. While the nominated players were selected by experts, it is ultimately just a popularity poll among fans. I have found no secondary coverage of this list being revealed by other reputable sources, only blogs etc. discussing it. If we include this as an official honour, where does it end? Why not Sports Illustrated's list or PST writers? At least those lists were made by experts. I appreciate hearing your thoughts as I am not a huge contributor to sports articles. Cheers, --SVTCobra 18:45, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree this is not a notable 'honour' worth including in a player article. Giant Snowman 21:43, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. This isn't an actual, official award, it's essentially the results of a poll of readers of a sports coverage site. Mattythewhite (talk) 23:56, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

English footballers at CfD

Hi. Please see this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:50, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Constant WP:ACMILAN violations

Mediocre Legacy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Can you have a look at his edits? He often violates this rule. What do we do with him? Dr Salvus 06:33, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I get leaving it as "AC Milan" on player articles, but how come the naming is so inconsistent on competition articles (e.g. it's "AC Milan" in Coppa Italia article but "Milan" in Champions League and Serie A articles)? Mediocre Legacy (talk) 09:30, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Mediocre Legacy, we should always be using AC Milan. Read what's written on WP:ACMILAN. Dr Salvus 10:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Explain the Serie A and Champions League articles then? Mediocre Legacy (talk) 10:15, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I'd guess it just hasn't been updated. Seems odd that it would be just Milan in the first place though. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:36, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Mediocre Legacy, I don't know the reason AC Milan isn't being used but it should be used anywhere (except in the expections indicated on WP:ACMILAN) Dr Salvus 11:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Mediocre does tones of edits, you haven't even exactly specified what he did so I am confused here. Govvy (talk) 11:22, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

He's referring to this edit. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Ye, that's unhelpful, that's like taking City or United away from Manchester! :/ Govvy (talk) 13:25, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

It's not unhelpful, it's what the club is called. The two clubs in that city are typically called Milan and Internazionale (or Inter). As you can see from this BBC report, after it's been established which team they're talking about, they just call the team Milan (same applies here for Inter). – Pee Jay 13:35, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

After it's been established which team they're talking about, they just call the team Milan: this is exactly what WP:ACMILAN does. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:37, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

PJ, just posted two BBC links, which show naming formalities, Inter Milan and AC Milan are as titled shown in those links. First instances are AC Milan and Inter Milan in prose, followed by Milan or Inter later in the prose. That's a good example. Govvy (talk) 13:41, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I'm well aware of what WP:ACMILAN says. This edit did not violate WP:ACMILAN. – Pee Jay 14:40, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

The bracket counts as an independent table, so AC Milan should be used. "Milan" should only be used in prose, after "AC Milan" has already been used before. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:57, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

What? That doesn't make sense? We establish the name AC Milan in the "Participating teams" section, so there's no need to refer to them as AC Milan after that. – Pee Jay 15:00, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

PeeJay, the rule refers about lead and body Dr Salvus 15:02, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Right, and tables are part of the body of the article. We're not talking about infoboxes, we're talking about tables, which comprise the actual content of the article. – Pee Jay 15:20, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure in tables and templates we would continue with AC Milan. It's the same reason for which we link several times the same club in a player's infobox. Paul Vaurie (talk) 17:36, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Otherwise completely stop linking the "Milan" and other club names throughout the article. Paul Vaurie (talk) 17:37, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

PJ, the BBC link you shared is a perfect example of WP:ACMILAN being applied: "AC Milan" is being used in the score header (AC Milan 3–1 Genoa), in the "Scores, Results & Fixtures" on the right, and the "Match Stats" (effectively, in all the tables), as well as in the first mention in the prose. "Milan" is only used in prose, from the second mention onwards. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:47, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Correct, per Nehme's reading. To be clear winners tables / charts and such should use the proper name rather than the shorter version which is a concession to convenience in prose. Koncorde (talk) 18:37, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

So, per Nehme1499, Koncorde and I's thoughts we can undo this edit? Dr Salvus 22:58, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

Why do we need to make exceptions for tables? The team name appears in full in the "Participating teams" section, so any use of the full name below is pointless. – Pee Jay 23:08, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

For the same reasons we use the more formal name in infoboxes. There has been no prior establishing of the naming convention, so by piping within tables loses integrity data integrity. For a player page it works after the initial mention of the club to pipe down as the context is established. For an infobox it is less clear as it is often viewed isolated from the rest of the information (particularly on mobile browsers). For a club page it works because the subject is clear from the start (hopefully). On pages that have many multiple teams, multiple tables and such the coherence of what is Inter Milan vs AC Milan is lost. The 2020–21 Coppa Italia prior season is currently having this issue as well where AC Milan isn't used at all but this is at least internally consistent.

On this topic, Internazionale should almost certainly be down as Inter Milan in these articles as we should be using the WP:COMMONNAME in English. Koncorde (talk) 23:31, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

So you’re arguing that the name hasn’t been previously established? Except it is established in the “Participating teams” table, as I’ve said since the beginning. Any mention after that doesn’t need to use the full name. – Pee Jay 02:01, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

The argument is that there is a distinct difference between a list of teams and prose, particularly when dealing with dozens of club names where changing names throughout a document is less clear (particularly when in distinct sections). It is also not the "full name", it is the common name. This isn't just an ACMILAN issue, but a good writing style.

To explain: in prose AC Milan should be used at the first instance in any distinct section or article. Subsequently, for narrative and grammatical structure, we might then use terms such as Milan, the Milan club, or even use more tangential terms like "at the San Siro" when it is clear AC Milan is the intended target. Club nicknames are also acceptable in prose in this way, once they are established. This is applicable to all teams, we just have a specific rule for AC Milan because of edit disputes.

It should therefore be AC Milan in the lede, the infobox, stats tables and any subsection of honours or similar - and this should really apply to all clubs for consistency (though I know this is super inconsistent as people don't like typing out longer names for some reason).

By the same token we wouldn't drop references to Utd or City or Rovers or Wednesday etc before we have established the club name or in subsequent tables and subsections - unless the article is solely about the club in question.

On player profiles / bio's this becomes particularly important because the lede can often be distinct to subsections. While we might like to pretend everyone reads the lede to know who "Milan" is, the reality is if the club is 3rd or 4th on the list or within a string of results or competitions it lacks that context required.

For all articles, the full name should therefore be used for all clubs when used at all in any article in prose subsections at least on the first use - and for good sense we should ensure when editing such paragraphs that if we do use Milan, a nickname or similar, that within that section we have established the club name first. Koncorde (talk) 15:17, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

SFWA Manager of the Year 1998

While looking for sources for Wim Jansen, I found that the 1998 SFWA Manager of the Year award formerly attributed to him by Wikipedia is not collaborated by the award's website, which gives it to Jim Jefferies for winning the cup with Hearts. [8] How did this come around? Are the SWFA unaware of their own history, or did Wikipedia have it wrong for years? If somebody could find a contemporary report from 1998 it would put this to bed once and for all. If it was Jefferies, then all the stats on the award's article would have to be reworked 2A00:23C5:E187:5F00:41D5:6D03:98C4:9007 (talk) 15:57, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I just checked my copy of the 1998-99 News of the World Football Annual (published August 1998) and that lists Jansen as the 1998 winner -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:19, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

However, I also just found an article published in the Daily Record in September 1999 about Jeffries and that claims he won the award?? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:22, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Just found another article from the Record dated May 1998, which notes "HEARTS boss Jim Jefferies was a winner today - 24 hours before the Jambos' bid for Tennents Scottish Cup glory. In a massive boost for the Gorgie side ahead of their Parkhead showdown with Rangers, Jefferies has been named as the Bell's Premier Division Manager of the Year. He beat Wim Jansen in the poll by Scotland's football writers despite the Dutchman leading Celtic to the league and Coca-Cola Cup." -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:26, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm not 100% sure whether the above refers to the same award. It says it was a "poll by Scotland's football writers", but then calls it the "Bell's Premier Division Manager of the Year", which actually refers to this, a different award......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:28, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

Notability question

Hi all, just over from the cricket project. I have a first-class cricketer (Howard Moxon) who played one FC match for Cambridge University in 1960. This wouldn't make him notable by our inclusion guidelines, but CricketArchive says the following about him:

"He played for Enfield v Skelmersdale in the Amateur Cup Final of April 1967. He was selected to play for England at Amateur Football. By the time of the 1972 Amateur Cup Final he had become manager, and is noted in the programme as being a public school master. His football clubs included Walthamstow Avenue; Harwich and Parkeston; Enfield and Wealdstone where he was player, captain and coach."

Does he pass your notability guidelines? StickyWicket (talk) 15:44, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

@AssociateAffiliate: no, amateur play does not confer notability for a footballer. He would have to meet WP:GNG to be notable. Giant Snowman 15:48, 25 January 2022 (UTC)

@GiantSnowman: thanks for that, I will redirect him to the Cambridge list of cricketers. StickyWicket (talk) 14:37, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Citations wanted - potential entries for List of footballers killed during World War II

Reposted and updated version of original now archived.

As main contributor to this article, I would like to flag up for attention of others on the project a number of candidates for the list that are already wiki-articled and known or believed to have been killed in or died as a result of circumstances brought on by the war (eg execution, in enemy captivity, effects of wounds etc) but which so far lack a reliable citation regarding their death which is preconditional to inclusion in the list. A few have no death circumstances described in the text of their article but I note have been put on category lists that suggest someone knew/believed they died in wartime circumstances. I also include those whose death circumstances are disputed - see their talk pages for further detail - and are in need of a conclusive ruling in or out.

Josef Adelbrecht (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in the war. His German wikipedia article states he was killed on the Russian front NW of Moscow.
Dragutin Babic (Yugoslavia) - there is a source in Croat language but it is unclear to me it indicates manner of death
Josef Bergmaier (Germany)
Jozsef Eisenhoffer (Hungary) - also disputed death circumstances
Bronislaw Fichtel (Poland) - disputed death date (see talk page_
Hermann Flick (Germany)
Josef Fruhwirth (Austria) - categorised as Austrian military personnel killed in WWII. His article in Germany wikipedia has citation to an Austrian newspaper report of his death which I find unreadable.
Nikolai Gromov (Russia) - Russian language profile says he 'died at the front' in 1943 without further detail. More informative sources if found preferred.
Adam Kogut (Poland) - died at Katyn during the massacres there according to Polish wikipedia.
Karol Kossok (Poland) UPDATE - I have located a Polish language article for citation for his death circumstances and will add him to the List.Cloptonson (talk) 20:14, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
Franz Krumm (Germany)
Willi Lindner (Germany) - source in German language, not fully clear about death details
Johann Luef (Austria) - his German wikipedia article indicates he died of wounds in hospital in East Prussia.
Josef Madlmayer (Austria)
Richard Malik (Germany) - only citation is a Polish language source which I cannot translate update - having been able to translate, I have now added him with the citation to the List.Cloptonson (talk) 10:26, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
Vladimir Markov (footballer) (Russia) - Stated in Olympedia to have died in Leningrad in 1942, which coincided with the long running siege of the city. Can evidence be found for treating him as a victim of the siege?
Alexander Martinek (Austria)
Otto Martwig (Germany)
Philip Meldon (Ireland) - disputed death details, not known to CWGC.
August Mobs (Germany) - said to have been killed in air raid.
Slavko Pavletic (Croatia) - no death circumstance details given in text but has been categorised as a Croatian civilian killed in the war.
Jean Petit (footballer, born 1914) (Belgium) - His French wikipedia article indicates without citation or death location given that he was a doctor = probably civilian rather than military - who was killed in a bombardment preceding the Alied invasion of Normandy.
Alfreds Plade (Latvia) - was added to the list but I have taken it out and copied it on list talk page as the citations used did not indicate how he died or any service. There are two citations in his article on Latvian wikipedia (which states he was repatriated to Germany as a Baltic German, served implicitly in their forces and fell on the Eastern Front) but I find both unreadable.
Eriks Raisters (Latvia)
Fyodor Rimsha (Russia)
Janis Rozitis (Latvia)
Holger Salin (Finland)
Aristotel Samsuri (Albania) - Reportedly executed in German concentration camp in Greece as a Communist partisan between 1942/1944, but was claimed by the postwar Communist regime of Albania to have escaped and survived before proclaiming him a martyr in 1981.
Otto Siffling (Germany) - It is listed under the list on German Wikipedia, but says he died of pleurisy. I've added it here in case he is found to have served during the war.
Harry Spencer (footballer) (New Zealand, previously played in England) - There are similarities with a New Zealand soldier known to the CWGC (see talk page of article). Can someone find confirmation they are the same man?
Aleksandrs Stankus (Latvia)
Erwin Stührk (Germany) - disputable death date, death place given in German war grave site not easy to ascertain as it only gives German form of name rather than its vernacular.
Ludwik Szabakiewicz (Poland) - disputable death details, particularly date
Jules Van Craen (Belgium) - his French wikipedia article states he died 'in one of the battles of World War II' but he did not die until October 1945, no location for the death or the battle stated. His death circumstances need further investigation.
Willi Völker (Germany) - uncertainty about death location.
Karl Wahlmuller(Austria)
Heinz Warnken (Germany) - German wikipedia gives him as gefallen (fallen) in 1943 but no detail of precise death date or death place.
Willi Wigold (Germany) - date of death is disputed
Adolf Zimmer (Poland) - his Polish wikipedia article states he was murdered at Kharkiv in 1940 - coinciding with Katyn Massacres - and to have been buried in a Polish military cemetery in the city. -UPDATE - I have found a Polish language article to cite and have added him to the List.Cloptonson (talk) 19:40, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

There may be additions coming onto the list so I encourage watch this space! Others are welcome to add. Please let us know if sources are found and added into their articles.Cloptonson (talk) 19:00, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

@Cloptonson: I used WP:Petscan to identify possible additions to this list: Heinrich Belohlavek was involved in Marxist resistance activities, being imprisoned in 1941 and executed in 1943, as verified by Der Standard; Gennaro Santillo was a victim of the aerial strafing of Castelvetrano in 1943 (as verified by [9]); Franciszek Sobkowiak died as a Polish military pilot according to his Polish wiki page ([10]), but i cant find a source for this; Edouard Van Brandt's french wiki page ([11]) says he died in WW2, but gives no more detail; Frans Christiaens was a victim of the bombing of Mortsel alongside Frans Vervoort, but this claim is unsourced on the Lierse S.K. page; Leslie Cant served as a lance corporal in the Durham Light Infantry and died of wounds on 19 June 1943 after he was severely wounded by an explosion during the North African campaign.(^[1]^[2]). In addition, I found Carlo Castellani (who died at Gusen) on Italian wikipedia, and have created an article for him here. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 11:45, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, that is a list that adds to the list. Noting that Sobkowiak was in a Polish RAF squadron, I tried to look him up in the CWGC website but could not find him (not sure if my search criteria were strong enough) and though his Polish wiki article states his burial place (Egersund Churchyard, Norway) he does not appear in the CWGC's cemetery report for that place. Leslie Cant who has the benefit of a CWGC citation has been added by me into the List article, as has Carlo Castellani.Cloptonson (talk) 13:29, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I have found an account of Sobkowiak's death here [http://aircrewremembered.com/sobkowiak-franciszek.html although it does not mention his :::prior footballing career. His grave is stated to be at Oslo's Western Cemetery. I have added the citation to his article but it needs mending as I have got this baffling error message Cite error: The opening ref tag is malformed or has a bad name (see the help page)..Cloptonson (talk) 19:49, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

References

^ "Les Cant". Southport FC Former Players Association. Retrieved 26 September 2021.
^ "Casualty Details: Leslie Cant". Commonwealth War Graves Commission. Retrieved 26 September 2021.

Sarina Wiegman

The Netherlands official website now lists Weigman as having won 99 caps. She was initially thought to have won 104 caps, but presumably five of those have been rescinded due to being against non-FIFA affliated opponents. In 2001, she was honoured with a shield for having reached 100 caps, with Louis van Gaal praising her. With the caps being rescinded, what is best the way to rewrite this part of her career? APM (talk) 16:44, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Cite both versions i'd guess. Most sources give her credit for 104 still i think. -Koppapa (talk) 06:59, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Franciszek Sobkowiak

I have added a citation to a page in an "Aircrew Remembered" website for his death in action during WWII. However, I have got a red error message saying the opening <ref> tag is 'malformed' but I do not know how to remedy it after a few attempts to edit.Cloptonson (talk) 20:47, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

@Cloptonson: I fixed it. One of the refs ended with <ref/> rather than </ref> -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:58, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

@Cloptonson: Check out the Wikipedia:RefToolbar. Makes is much easier to not miss these little foibles. --dashiellx (talk) 14:19, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Amad Diallo page protection

Can someone please page protect Amad Diallo? There is constant vandalism amid a rumoured transfer to Rangers. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:52, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Georgie Kelly

Hi all - I'm at 3RR on Georgie Kelly regarding his signing for Rotherham United which has not been announced via a reliable source (yet). Note there is an article [12] which claims he has signed in the headline, but then doesn't specifically say it in the article text. There is also an article that the Yorkshire Post ran and then pulled.[13] It'll probably be announced in the next few hours, but in the meantime could some people add it to their watchlist? Cheers, Gricehead (talk) 14:33, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I'll keep an eye on it. I'm in a similar situation at Luis Díaz (Colombian footballer) myself. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 14:49, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

If anyone's around, the same edit by the same IP has been added again. Gricehead (talk) 17:03, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Since it's an IP, just put in a Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. RedPatch (talk) 17:24, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

International footballer at AfD

Hi. Please see this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 10:03, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

These AFDs are becoming a bit ridiculous, I'm not enthused about the future of sports on this site. I don't understand this push to nuke thousands of sporting articles, removing them does more harm than keeping them.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:21, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

@Ortizesp: WOSO editors have been wondering this for quite a few years and more --SuperJew (talk) 19:42, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Federico Gatti

The page urgently needs protection. Many editors have changed their club following to a transfer rumour to Juventus Dr Salvus 07:13, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Joe White

We have an article on Joe White (footballer, born 2002) (defender, born 18 January 2002) and a draft on User:GiantSnowman/Joe White (midfielder, born 1 October 2002)]].

If/when the latter makes his debut and becomes notable, should we have Joe White (defender, born 2002) and Joe White (midfielder, born 2002) (my preferred option) or Joe White (footballer, born 18 January 2002) and Joe White (footballer, born 1 October 2002)? Giant Snowman 11:35, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

GiantSnowman, I'd use their position. Not everyone knows their date of birth Dr Salvus 11:41, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's what I was thinking. Positions obviously more flexible (some players have multiple), but likely to be more useful than exact DOB. Giant Snowman 11:51, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Position is a better disambiguator. If you were using the birth date, I would've thought you'd only need the month when one is January and one is October though. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:06, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

I can see why using position as a disambiguator can be better, though it's not impossible at all that the "defender" (who seems to be a full-back) moves up the pitch to midfielder in the near future. What would we do then? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:08, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

We could use the position we can find in the player's club official site. To make an example:here, Juventus consider Cuadrado as a defender although he often moves up the pitch to midfielder (and forward). In this case, we'd consider him as a defender in spite of his style of play. Dr Salvus 13:44, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Which would be completely useless disambiguation-wise. What if he moved to Arsenal next season, who list him as a midfielder? Would we then have to change the disambiguator from defender to midfielder? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:08, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

I think we should cross that bridge when we get there, for now position or birth date should be fine. I have no preference, since presumably the DAB page would help differentiate the 2.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:37, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

I would go with birth date, although stick with just January 2002 and October 2002 rather than the full date. Position is vague and subjective. – Pee Jay 15:02, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, use month of birth to disambiguate (e.g. Ben Watson). "Defender" or "midfielder" isn't really suitable as it isn't clear to an unfamiliar reader that the person is a footballer. J Mo 101 (talk) 15:51, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Ernst Kaltenbrunner and Wiener AC

I see in the article on the Vienna club that Ernst Kaltenbrunner is listed as one of its 'Notable players' without citation or dates indicating when he played. The name links with the Austrian Nazi war criminal who was executed at Nuremberg. (His lifetime of 1903-1946 makes it theoretically possible for him to have played for them as a young man.) I find no mention of him playing football in his wikipedia articles even in the German wikipedia. If this is not be dismissed as a vandalism or joke to be deleted, if this man DID play for them then it would be illuminating if it could be mentioned years he was recorded to have played for the club and in what position, and to feed the detail into the biographical article.Cloptonson (talk) 07:04, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Different person - most likely Ernst Kaltenbrunner (footballer). I have disambiguated the wikilink. Interestingly, there are two other footballing Kaltenbrunners - conceivably Ernst's father and brother? Paul W (talk) 17:06, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, that explains it. It looked ironic that on the same list as the apparent name of a Nazi war criminal was another who was a prominent victim of Nazi war crime (Otto Herschmann).Cloptonson (talk) 17:55, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Category:2021 CONCACAF Nations League Finals squad templates

Category:2021 CONCACAF Nations League Finals squad templates - only contains one template so far. Surely the tournament is too minor to justify it? Giant Snowman 16:39, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, only the World Cup and major continental tournaments (Euros, Asian Cup, etc.) should have templates. An argument could be made for the (now-defunct) Confederations Cup. Same logic for the respective categories (i.e. Category:2018 FIFA World Cup players) Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:17, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes the template should be deleted, the same was done for the squad templates created for the UEFA Nations League Finals. S.A. Julio (talk) 20:00, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@Nehme1499 and S.A. Julio: thanks for confirming my suspicions. Now at TfD. Giant Snowman 20:11, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Field names or sponsorship names

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=National_Women%27s_Soccer_League&diff=1068533629&oldid=1067695812 I'll let the project decide if we pipe to support sponsored pitch names in league articles. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:37, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

We do not use sponsored names. Giant Snowman 09:15, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

Agree with GS. There was a discussion not that long ago which reinforced that consensus. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 13:05, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

That was my understanding. It was particularly around World Cup tournaments, but I too agree. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:54, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Luke Bolton

I am experiencing issues with @ItsKesha: at Luke Bolton - he has blindly reverted me, describing my edit as 'nonsense', but in doing so has simply removed a valid reference and undone my updating of the career stats box. Can somebody please review the article? Giant Snowman 21:02, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Three sources is quite clearly excessive, the two sources in place suffice for "player loaned to Luton Town". And why are you repeatedly blindly removing the players squad number? Didn't mention the fact you did that, did you? Why? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:12, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

At no point did you say that you felt three sources was excessive - but unsure why you have chosen to remove the official club announcement. also I missed you adding the squad number because a) you never mentioned it in your edit summary and b) you were generally messing with the infobox layout. Giant Snowman 21:16, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

You need it spelling out to you that three sources is excessive... why? This is Wikipedia 101. Oh and thanks for admitting you blindly reverted my edits, the very thing you accused me of 👍. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:18, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Huge difference between not noticing a 2 digit number, and removing the career stats (as you have been and keen on doing). Further difference is I have realised my mistake - have you? Giant Snowman 21:23, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Removing a third source to state that a footballer went on loan to Luton Town is not a mistake. Removing seasons in a statistics table where a player wasn't even at the club is not a mistake, you keep banging on about the MOS but it makes absolutely zero mention of this circumstance, and therefore you are not telling the truth. I gave an example of Marco van Ginkel of statistics not appearing in the table when a player is loaned out for the entire season and you disregard this as "other stuff exists". Can you argue your reasons for why you think these seasons warrant inclusion for a player who never even made a first team appearance for his parent club? All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 21:34, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

because it makes it more clear where he was on loan from during said loan spells?Muur (talk) 22:57, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Three sources might be valid if each source offers something unique. However, I do agree we could all be a bit more descriptive in our edit summaries, but we could also WP:GOODFAITH a bit more and be more WP:CIVIL in our discussions when we don't agree. --dashiellx (talk) 14:00, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Andy Fisher

I have started an RM on Talk:Andy Fisher as to determine if that article meets ~~WP:PRIMARY~~ WP:PRIMARYTOPIC since I have noticed there is an Andy Fisher (footballer) on Wikipedia as well. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 15:39, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Chico Flores

I don't get this: (see Talk:Chico Flores) since when is that name a "nickname compound"? I was checking the talk page history and what has been discussed on a possible retitle. For what I know, I have always known his name as this name, though it has been a long time since he was playing in England. Ta, 46.149.249.106 (talk) 11:29, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

I recall something similar on Diogo Jota when it was also moved with the reason "Diogo Jota is a name/nickname compound" which it is in fact the definite common name for the Liverpool player, see Talk:Jota (Spanish footballer) for the discussion as to why that was returned whence it came. Chico Flores could also get a similar outcome as well by having a look at Talk:Chico Flores and I've given my view on it there. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 15:49, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Notes on national cups

I don't know what to do anymore. Nehme1499 continues to add notes to national cups that are against the MOS and have no consensus. I've already raised a discussion before on this channel. There was not a decision to include these notes as it's too busy and TMI. Yet despite this, Nehme continues to make these edits, and still the user wants me to raise this issue again. Nehme then tries to claim I am bold by making edits in line with the MOS. I am trying to assume good faith and I see a lot of great contributions on wikipedia that the user makes but at this point I am very frustrated that a user is saying I am not following Wikipedia:BRD when I am going by the MOS. Rupert1904 (talk) 19:52, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Firstly: This page provides a suggested layout for footballer biographies [...] nothing is set in stone. Secondly, I had already opened a discussion here, and Felixsv7 agreed with me. There is no valid reason at all to remove the notes, as opposed to keeping valid and useful information. Why not remove the league columns then? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:59, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

After you didn't get the answer you wanted, you tried changing the wikipedia MOS and were warned by myself and other editors, you then continued to make edits & you created a second discussion without pinging me, and I think on purpose so that I would miss the discussion. One person commenting and agreeing with you is certainly not a consensus when there was a long discussion month previously to not include these notes. As it was said then, they are too busy and confusing. Your notes exist on an island and aren't actually corresponding to the actual stats table because there is no frame of reference for which season or club the notes correspond to. Furthermore, one editor suggested in line notes for national cups, but it was decided that approach was way too busy. Rupert1904 (talk) 20:28, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Mattythewhite, dashiellx, Felixsv7, ItsKesha and I advocated for using notes; you and GS were the only ones against. It seems we have different standards of consensus. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 20:37, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Rupert1904: as far as I can see, there is no consensus on this issue, contrary to what you appear to be claiming (unless i misread). if there is no consensus on the issue, editors should really just avoid these lame edit wars and use the existing format on the article. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 20:41, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

What is the existing format though? None of these notes were there until Nehme started adding them recently. Rupert1904 (talk) 20:43, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

By existing format, I mean whatever is at the article right now, and I direct this at all users. There's no good reason to change format if there's no consensus on the issue, and reverting a change in format is very unproductive and is just provoking an edit war. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 20:58, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

5v2, to me, is clear consensus to add them. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:02, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Maybe, there seems to be more support than opposition. Would an RfC clear this up? Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:28, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

dashiellx said it was too busy in their note on the issue so to be tossing around numbers is a bit much, Nehme1499. And Microwave Anarchist - existing format today is different than what existed a week or a month ago on these articles. At which point in time are we going to go with one format or another? The second it's added we can then say it's an existing format. And as I've said before, the notes don't provide useful information and in fact, I think that they are more confusing to the average reader. You want to include a note at the top of the stats table with a list of cups at the bottom of the table that don't actually correspond to which clubs they represent. Unless the average reader knows which country every club is from that a player has represented and the name of the domestic cup in that country, then this note doesn't make sense. I really don't see the value in having this. I mean take for example the ones in question from today, Rodrigo Bentancur and Dejan Kulusevski, Nehme insists on adding notes about the FA Cup and EFL Cup but these players might not even make an appearance in either competition for all we know. And then if they don't make an appearance in the cup, you then remove the cup from the footnote (which I've seen in stats tables before when Nehme has added these notes) which then adds even more confusion as it seems like an accidental omission. Why are we trying to fix something that's not broken? Rupert1904 (talk) 01:09, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

dashiellx was specifically referring to the example table he made below when he said it was "probably overkill on [his] part"... Critical reading isn't your forte it seems. The notes don't provide useful information: on the contrary, they indicate what the respective cup competitions are. Removing them for no valid reason at all is not helpful. These players might not even make an appearance in either competition: so what? We don't remove league rows if someone doesn't play a league game. You then remove the cup from the footnote: I don't recall ever doing that... And on the topic of "throwing numbers", I'm not the one using a discussion that clearly favoured using notes rather than not as proof to not use them (!!) Nehme₁₄₉₉ 01:44, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Quit it with the personal insults. And you're using other stuff exists argument about the league rows. I've already given my valid reasons but it seems like anything I write you just pass off as garbage and not worthy of your time or consideration. If your cup notes coherently indicate the respective cup competitions then take Kevin De Bruyne for example. Why does it just say Belgian Cup, DFB-Pokal, FA Cup? If it's reflecting his career, it should be Belgian Cup, DFB-Pokal, FA Cup, DFB-Pokal, FA Cup. Why wouldn't it match the full trajectory of his career? Just because you know that Chelsea & Manchester City are in the same country and play in the same domestic cup doesn't mean that every user would. Why no Copa do Brasil for Danilo? And it's just a couple examples on each issue I take umbrage with but there are loads others where it can get even more confusing and too busy. Rupert1904 (talk) 02:40, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I've never personally attacked you, don't make false allegations. The league rows argument isn't WP:WHATABOUT, it's me trying to show you that your argument about removing the cup notes makes no sense whatsoever. Why arbitrarily remove the domestic cups, but not the continental cups, other cups, or leagues? It's funny how you have an issue with my (supposed) "other stuff exists" argument, then proceed to fall into the same argument you are arguing against. I don't know why Danilo or KDB's tables look like that; I didn't edit them personally. If it were for me, all cups would be included. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 02:57, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

It's not arbitrary. No notes need to be added for leagues, national cups or league cups because they all have their own individual column and these headlines clearly spell out what the competition is. While notes for the continental and other columns are important as there are multiple continental cups that a club can participate in a given season; for instance, SK Slavia Prague, FC Midtjylland, PSV Eindhoven, FC Flora, Celtic F.C., ŠK Slovan Bratislava, FK Žalgiris, Neftçi PFK, and FC Kairat have all played in 3 different UEFA competitions this season. It is important to have notes for the players on these clubs to indicate that stats were made in all these different competitions since we only have one column for continental stats. We don't have strict UCL column, UEL column, and UECL column - and I'm not advocating for that either as it's too much. And notes are especially important with the other column since it's catchall of every super cup both domestic and international. For instance, FC Bayern Munich players in 2020–21 played in three different "other" competitions, the DFL-Supercup, UEFA Super Cup, and FIFA Club World Cup. There's only one national cup and league cup per country (for the country's that even have a league cup) so this note is redundant, busy, and like I indicated above with examples in my previous note are confusing. Rupert1904 (talk) 03:19, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

And again, please stop with the personal attacks. Saying that I'm not able to read critically and that my argument "make no sense whatsoever" just because you don't agree with it are both personal attacks. You can argue your point without having to bash my intellect and attempt to get under my skin. Rupert1904 (talk) 03:39, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Critical reading isn't your forte it seems sounds like a personal attack to me.Spike 'em (talk) 08:44, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

There's only one national cup and league cup per country (for the country's that even have a league cup) so this note is redundant I agree with this. We should only add notes where ambiguity exists. Robby.is.on (talk) 12:42, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

Personally, I believe tables should provide as much information as possible without making the user look for unnecessary clarification. Would an average reader who is not familar with the subject understand that England has two domestic cups, but others only one? Does the average reader understand teams dropping to the EL from the CL? If we can agree on a way to note which competition the stats are from when the category can include multiple I think we should. However, I will admit, that I did not believe the previous conversion about this had "officially reached a consensus". --dashiellx (talk) 12:50, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I'd rather it just say "national cup" and "league cup" and even then only when players have played in more than one country, since for example you can just write FA Cup or Scottish Cup etc if they spend their entire career in one country.Muur (talk) 23:50, 1 February 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure about FA Cup or Scottish Cup. I think keeping it standard "national cup" and "league cup" across all footy would be preferred. --dashiellx (talk) 17:55, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

2021 Africa Cup of Nations - original research?

There is a table on this page which has ordered the teams into a table with group-style points being added for knockout games. I have never seen this done for a knockout competition, club or international - given as they play different teams and therefore can't be judged on points like a group stage or a league. The "standings" page on the Confederation of African Football is only for the groups too [14], which indicates the source is "just trust me bro". I would remove it myself, but as an IP, there would be an instant revert for blanking a section. 2A00:23C5:E187:5F00:BC65:F049:501:3A00 (talk) 14:23, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Looks made up to me, as sources aren't reporting it. And why would they, as it's just conflating group and knockout stage results to invent a final standings. I see no sources that say Morocco finished 5th in the tournament. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:35, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

2021 FIFA Club World Cup

Issue with final ranking table below the page. Third bronze displayed multiple times. Why?--Island92 (talk) 19:57, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Done Nehme₁₄₉₉ 20:10, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. I'll take care of that edit for the future cases.--Island92 (talk) 20:15, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Category:Olympic footballers

In Category:Olympic footballers of [Country], should I include players that played for the Olympic team but not at the Olympics, but rather in friendly/qualifying tournaments? Paul Vaurie (talk) 05:40, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I think that the purpose of that category is the same as Category:FIFA World Cup players, though I might be mistaken. So, only for those who played in the Olympics (not in friendlies). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 12:37, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Runners-up and playoff winning promotions in club/player honours - consensus?

I notice on Will Grigg's page, his second place (runner-up) promotion from 2014/15 with MK Dons was removed from his 'Honours' section for not being notable. I see there have been numerous previous discussions on the topic of whether runner up/third place/playoff winning promotions are considered 'Honours', but I can't see if a consensus was ever reached. If the consensus is 'no', then there are likely thousands of player pages which require edits to remove them. In the meantime, I have re-added the honour to his page.

I am strongly in favour of these being included, for several reasons:

1. It is a promotion to a higher division.
2. Clubs receive a trophy or some other kind of silverware (e.g. a plate for L2 3rd place promotion). Playoff winners receive a trophy. L1 runner-up receives a trophy. Players involved in all of these receive a medal (e.g. a bronze medal for 3rd place promotion in L2).
3. ALL Premier League/EFL clubs that have achieved a runner-up, third place or playoff promotion list these achievements in the Honours section of their club pages. If it is notable enough to be included in an entire club's honours, then surely it is notable enough for an individual player.
4. Some (not all) websites include playoff wins and runner up promotions amongst player honours.
5. A runner-up for a cup competition is deemed an honour (e.g. EFL Trophy runner-up - player receives a medal), so a runner-up for a league which involves a player receiving a medal should be treated equally.
6. Having checked a dozen or so EFL official club websites (e.g. Bolton Wanderers), all list 'runner-up' promotions and playoff promotions in their 'Club Honours' sections.

Overall, this strongly leans towards these types of achievements being included in the Honours section of player pages. If consensus is 'no', then all club pages featuring these as honours, and obviously all player pages, will need to be edited to remove these (we're talking thousands of pages). FilthyDon (talk) 11:18, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't see that it is clear-cut that every honour that appears on club pages needs to appear on player pages too and I wouldn't include promotion as an honour on a player page. Spike 'em (talk) 11:36, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Why should an honour deemed notable enough to appear on a larger entity (i.e. a club) not be notable enough for an individual player? A club is bigger than any one player etc etc. EDIT: I'd also add, just purely for casual readers wanting to know "how many times has [x] been promoted?" a simple check of their Honours section should provide this info. FilthyDon (talk) 11:39, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Personally I am not to keen on having promotion listed in the honours section of players articles. As far as I can see it is in a similar vain to qualifying for the Champions league or reaching the quarter or semi-final stage of a cup competition. We don't list how many times a player reached the FA Cup semi-finals or how many times they have qualified direct to the UCL group stage. That's just my 2 pence though. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 11:58, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

This has been discussed a number of times before and I have yet to read an arguement to disbar promotions from a player's honour list that makes the slightest bit of sense. As FilthyDon says, a promotion is an honour worth putting on a club page, a club that is maybe 150 years old... but not on a player's page who has a career spanning less than 10% of that time. I mean... what the fuck?--Echetus Xe 13:54, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Promotion should either be included in both club+player honours, or neither (imo). I don't have a stance on whether they should stay or go, though. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:15, 2 February 2022 (UTC)

Included. it's basically the most notable thing you can do in the lower leagues and removing it is unfair really. and yes, it is seen as so notable that they give out trophies and medals for it. and no, it is not comparable to qualifying for the champions league that is just not understanding lower league football. honestly, no one cares about winning the league in the lower tiers. promotion is what is important. And you usually do get clubs signing players where they go "this guy was promoted 6 times during his career, thats why weve signed him". or "this guy was promoted last season, so we hope he can do that with us too this season". I would compare it to the Olympics, people with silver and bronze medals are still happy. but fa cup or premier league runners up are not.Muur (talk) 01:29, 3 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree 100%. I don't think there is a consensus though and this has been debated a lot over the years and people aren't particularly interested in another rehash of previous debates. Just make sure any honours are cited by a source and then they won't generally be removed.--Echetus Xe 11:56, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

not true actually, plenty of people remove sourced promotion honours for "not being notable". thats what happened to OP who brought this up.Muur (talk) 17:59, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

International Managers

Hi all,

Most national team manager sections do not have sources. Is Transfermarkt considered reliable enough to use as a source for nations without the information available on their national team's website?

Using the Gambia as an example: Source

Felixsv7 (talk) 08:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Felixsv7, no unfortunately it isn't Dr Salvus 08:46, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Transfermarkt is not a WP:RS, see WP:TRANSFERMARKT. Clog Wolf _Howl 08:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I looked at that discussion but it appeared to relate to player statistics rather than managerial history which is why I wanted to check. If we are disbarring Transfermarkt, does anyone have any other source where national team managers are listed? Felixsv7 (talk) 09:08, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I haven't ever looked at it but if it's only referred to players' stats, I'll see no problems to use TM for coaches' stats Dr Salvus 09:26, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

It might be the case for some national teams that we have to source each manager individually rather than to a list of all the previous managers unfortunately. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:09, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Transfermarkt isn't considered an RS since it is user generated. This applies for both player information and manager information. --SuperJew (talk) 11:04, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Wouldn't Transfermarkt be better than an unsourced section though (in this particular case)? Obviously should another source be located then that would take precedent but currently the sections are just operating on faith rather than giving users an idea of where the information came from. Felixsv7 (talk) 11:38, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Doesn't saying "an unreliable source is better than no source at all" go against WP:RS....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:55, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

If it's unsourced, it should be challenged and if a source can't be found it should be removed. Tbf, anyone coming across a lot of these articles could just remove it if it's unsourced because the burden is on the person that adds the information to ensure it is sourced. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 12:56, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

If Transfermarkt use administrators and data scouts to check information added by users (as per their FAQs), why are we not accepting their information as valid? Again, just for this narrow case. It seems like a similar issue that National Football Teams has as they're both unsourced but seemingly reliable data. Felixsv7 (talk) 13:14, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Their administrators and data scouts are users of the site. The process is akin to editing a full protected article on Wikipedia. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:18, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

That's not entirely accurate. Their staff Felixsv7 (talk) 22:35, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Those are the superadmins. The moderators (some of whom are admins) and data scouts are not staff. All this to say nothing of the actual circular reporting problems there have been in the past. Sir Sputnik (talk) 22:44, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Not sure how to list requested moves

Talk:FC Bayern Munich#Requested move 5 February 2022. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:27, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Technically uncontracted, but

Was wondering how to handle the case of Nathan Konstandopoulos in his infobox. He has played for Adelaide United since 2017. At the beginning of the current 2021–22 A-League Men season it was announced that he is currently uncontracted with the Reds, but still training with them as he recovers from an ACL tear. Today the club announced that he has recovered, is cleared to play, and has signed a new contract until the end of the season. Should this be treated as two separate spells in the infobox (2017–2021, 2022–) or just one? And on the club's season page, should it be a "transfer out" and "transfer in" or just a "contract extension"? --SuperJew (talk) 08:55, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

I think they should count as separate spells. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 10:35, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Question

I don't do a lot with images so I ask here. Are images from Juventus site gallery protected by copyright? I've had a look at it but I've seen no information related to copyright Dr Salvus 13:45, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

There is a copyright notice at the bottom of every page of Juventus's official website -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:48, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

The first PDF of the terms and conditions section ("Terms and Conditions of Use of Juventus Websites and Apps") reads: The user acknowledges that all Contents (including, specifically, [...] photographs, [...] images, [...] any other material found on this Website) are the exclusive property of Juventus and/or of those who legitimately hold the related rights. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:59, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

It is basically 0% likely that images on the website of a company, especially one as big as Juventus, would not be under copyright -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:02, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

I apologise. I had been very distracted...... Dr Salvus 14:04, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

The biggest examples for free-to-use images I know of are some Ukrainian, Russian and Iranian news websites. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:05, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

I had got confused by them Dr Salvus 14:07, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

2019 FIFA U-20 World Cup

I wanted to ask this last week, but whats with all the broadcasting rights and stuff? Isn't all the content pointless?? Govvy (talk) 23:26, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

I would say it's worthless, as Wikipedia is not a TV directory. And it's mostly unsourced, which makes it even worse. Joseph2302 (talk) 11:53, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

k, I removed it all. Cheers. Govvy (talk) 16:36, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Player awarded medal without playing

There is a discussion underway : Talk:Cristiano Ronaldo#Trophies of Cristiano Ronaldo, also previously at Talk:Gareth Bale#2016 UEFA Super cup regarding specifically the 2016 UEFA Super Cup, this game is an example of a player not being selected to play in the team or squad, but in Ronaldo's case being awarded a part of the first team and receiving an honours. The Ronaldo article refuses to give the honour to the player, this despite sources claiming the player won the trophy (e.g. Real Madrid Ronaldo page). This discussion has previously been archived, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Archive 132#Re-posting this because it was archived but it wasn't entirely finalised and I want this debate to come to a final and definitive conclusion so that we can avoid anymore future issues regarding players' honours, however I would like a sort of recount of this vote, as the logic is simple - the player is awarded the honour for being part of the squad, only the player doesn't get a cap for not making an appearance. This standard should be across the board, e.g. Messi awarded 2006 European Champions league title based on Barcelona's website. These articles are factually based, going to a vote doesn't count for facts. There needs to be clarification, the ruling should be - if a player is awarded a medal, then it counts as a trophy, and it seems Real Madrid's webpage suggests Ronaldo was awarded 3 Super cups, making 2016 an honour in the list. I believe the Lionel Messi#Honours article better explains the situation with a note. As for Ronaldo, the reference is in place to add the honour to his list of trophies, it just needs to be verified with wikipedia editors. Can we please restart this discussion, and this time use a Wikipedia:Requests for comment (RfC) and not a vote. Cltjames (talk) 23:50, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Sources do not agree as to whether Ronaldo won the 2016 Super Cup. The fact is that he was not even in Norway when the game was played (his Instagram post from the day confirms that he watched it at home), and there is an archived version of the UEFA squad page that shows Ronaldo was not part of the squad Real Madrid submitted to UEFA for the game. Furthermore, even Ronaldo’s own website at the time did not consider him to be a winner of that competition. However, there are multiple UEFA.com pages that list Ronaldo as having won three Super Cups (2014, 2016 and 2017), and Real Madrid’s website also lists him as a three-time winner. Again, furthermore, Gareth Bale posted a photo of himself with a medal on Instagram, despite himself also not having been included in the squad Real Madrid submitted for the match. Considering for other competitions (like the Champions League), we look at who was registered for the tournament when it comes to attributing titles (hence Lionel Messi being recognised as a winner of the 2005-06 Champions League despite being uninvolved in the final, not to mention he played in six of the 12 games Barcelona played on the way to the final). To that end, I would be happy to list Ronaldo as a winner of two UEFA Super Cups, accompanied by a note that says some sources consider him to have won the 2016 Super Cup as well, despite not having been in the country, let alone the registered squad. – Pee Jay 03:28, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Cltjames. It would not make sense to omit those titles when mentioned in various sources that were actually won by the player even without the player participating in them. I don’t know the reasons that lead to that simple conclusion, lack of investigation perhaps? In any case I will briefly explain how it works with the UEFA Super Cup. The club sends an inscription that the staff, UEFA, validates. That is, there are some players registered, all of the first squad, plus some reserve or list "B" in case of an injured and so the affiliates can participate. (With them there would be debate in including the titles, not with those of the first template, but that is another debate). This serves for the subsequent delivery of medals, which are delivered according to those lists that the clubs present, not only to "those who dispute the final". In the UEFA rules it is very clear to whom the medals of champion and runner-up are awarded: "The winning team is presented with 40 gold medals and the runner-up with 40 silver medals. Additional medals may not be produced." (Art. 9.03 UEFA Super Cup Rules) If the club itself mentions that the player actually won that title, by logic it must be understood that one of those 40 medals was for him and therefore, without more or less, even without playing the game, he is simply champion. If you do not know the subject or are unsure of what I say, you can consult this information (Art. 30) Judasly (talk) 04:46, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

As an aside, awarding FORTY medals for the winners of a one-off match where only 14 players from a pool of 18 can actually take the field is really weird...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:43, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

As to the question about 40 players, the team will present medals to players and management in the stadium, then assign more medals to backroom staff and specific players who greatly contributed to the season, e.g. Messi's case in 2006 UCL. Ronaldo seems to have been attributed an honour on the Real Madrid website (and various sites including UEFA), and this should be fully acknowledged by the editors involved in the article in mention. Cltjames (talk) 12:46, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

This is nonsense. Messi is recognised as winning the 2005-06 Champions League because he was part of the squad for the tournament. The same cannot be said for Ronaldo in the 2016 Super Cup. – Pee Jay 16:00, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Why wouldn’t it make sense? I would believe that argument if there were no sources to back it up, but if there were, it would be for something, wouldn’t it? In addition, as I explained earlier, those are the rules imposed by UEFA, regardless of whether they are wrong or not that is not our responsibility. If the club considers him champion, it’s because he is. -Judasly (talk) 23:21, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

What are you talking about? There are obviously sources for Messi being in Barcelona’s Champions League squad in 2005-06, since he played in the competition. There is also a source that Ronaldo was not in Real Madrid’s squad for the 2016 Super Cup - I don’t just mean the matchday 18, I’m talking about the squad at large that they registered for that competition. Would you like me to link it here for you again? – Pee Jay 22:48, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I’ve seen it, you don’t have to bring it up again. On the other hand, you want me to raise again a UEFA reference where it mentions that the player did win the title? -Judasly (talk) 24:03, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Do you want me to reintroduce the UEFA source that says he didn’t? – Pee Jay 00:19, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Sure, do it, and I’ll pass you the ones that say yes, because I bet your only argument is that it doesn’t appear in the template of that final. -Judasly (talk) 01:29, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Dude, even Ronaldo himself (via his website) doesn’t even claim he won the 2016 Super Cup. Please stop this, it’s getting embarrassing. – Pee Jay 01:06, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Bro, it is by no means shameful, my intention is clearly to contribute to this issue, perhaps in the future we can contribute to another debate on a common theme for both. But as I say, if UEFA rules have specific parameters, there are official references both from UEFA itself and from important media and the club itself certifies it, I do not see why doubt the veracity of the title, Why is it hard to understand and you come to simple conclusions like "if you didn’t play you didn’t win it"? Also note that Wiki:en may have influenced this despite not being a primary source (I clarify that this is just my opinion) -Judasly (talk) 02:30, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Look, I can tell English isn’t your first language so maybe we’re having communication issues here, but I never said “if you didn’t play, you didn’t win it”. I said we assign titles to players who were in the registered squad for a competition. Ronaldo was not in the Real Madrid squad for the 2016 Super Cup, he didn’t travel to Norway, you have no way of knowing if he got a medal (which wouldn’t mean anything even if you did since Bale posted a picture of himself with a medal despite not being included in the squad like Ronaldo), Ronaldo himself doesn’t claim the title, and we have conflicting sources from UEFA about whether even they consider him a winner of that title. How many more times do I have to go over this for you? Do I need to get a translation from a Simple English Wikipedia contributor? – Pee Jay 01:46, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

No need, I understand everything perfectly. It is obvious that Ronaldo did not attend that call, as you mention probably just like Bale was given a behind-the-scenes medal because of those 40 are included collaborators, assistants, etc. In a way I would understand your point of not being because there are sources that say if he won the title even if there is not a source or a graphic reference of Ronaldo himself with the medal. But hey, it’s clear that if we keep this up, we’re not gonna get anywhere and we’re gonna stay in this. Since it is a controversial issue I would keep the option I proposed in the discussion of Ronaldo, where it is clarified that the player was not summoned for those finals. -Judasly (talk) 03:03, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

I think the point of this thread was to establish a reality that honours are awarded without an appearance, for instance Gareth Bale with a medal on instagram, or Real Madrid' website honouring Ronaldo. So this seems a bit of a stalemate, so the second purpose was to bring cohesion to the situation and explain, this correctly. Right now the Ronaldo and Bale articles do not explain the situation of being honoured a medal without playing, and this is being addressed and needs to be rectified to correctly represent the situation. Cltjames (talk) 21:22, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

@PeeJay: could you accept a type of note addition to the article as discussed before where a text explains the medal was awarded without a game being played ? And this should be observed by @Kante4: and whoever is working the Gareth Bale article as a recommendation to correctly observe how Bale was awarded a medal for the 2016 Super cup, as right now there is no mention of this. Cltjames (talk) 23:22, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

You’re obsessed with the idea of a medal indicating an honour. How do you know the medal Bale received was legit? It could have been a prop he had made to celebrate his team mates winning the trophy without him. If a player has literally no involvement in winning a trophy, i.e. they weren’t even registered for the competition, they have no business being assigned a title. – Pee Jay 01:39, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

And hit him with that... how do you know that the medal Bale received is worthless? Read a little above that UEFA awards many medals maybe one of them was for him. Why do they always rely on the superficial without knowing if there really is a background to things? -Judasly (talk) 12:34, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Again, you're too focused on the medal. As it happens, I was wrong about Bale; he was included in the Real Madrid squad for the Super Cup (see here) which is why he received a medal and is considered to have won that title. But Ronaldo was not in that squad, and there is no evidence he received a medal. You're just making assumptions that he did, based on nothing at all. Ronaldo himself does not claim to have won the 2016 Super Cup, and UEFA specifically excluded it from his 2016 honours when detailing Ronaldo's claim to the 2016–17 UEFA Men's Player of the Year Award. – Pee Jay 12:25, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Ok, I think you've helped the 'pro' honours supporters here in finding the Bale information, and frankly that's all that's needed to prove information should be added to prove the fact he was awarded a medal without playing. I am not too focused, frankly the opposite, why are you not focused on correcting a simple fact. And as for "based on nothing at all", sorry but the 'Real Madrid' website is the reliable source we must adhere to, if anything they've explained to us he honoured with a trophy for 2016 Super cup. We're going around in circles here, can we please honour this fact a player can have an trophy without playing, maybe in a form of a note if not directly showing the game in mention. Cltjames (talk) 13:22, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

You haven't provided any reason why one source should be preferred over another, so there's no reason we "must adhere to" anything. – Pee Jay 14:07, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree with PeeJay here (as per consensus of course aswell which was clear). So either you get consensus that goes the other way (which we all respect than) or WP:DROPTHESTICK. If a player is not called up and not even in the same country, how can he be called a winner of that said competition? I just don't get it. Kante4 (talk) 15:12, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

OK, fine, the stick is being dropped. Only it's unfortunate a key discussion can't be resolved in the case of Ronaldo and especially Bale who doesn't have a mention about the medal he won in 2016, there's a story that can be told there. My final suggestion is a note format explaining the situation regarding a medal without an appearance. Cltjames (talk) 15:54, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Why should there be a note about a player winning a medal when he was not called up when we have clear consensus to not include those honours? Kante4 (talk) 16:02, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Agreed. The honour has been added to Bale's article since he was in the squad (albeit not in the country, like Ronaldo), but adding a note to Ronaldo's page to say "some sources consider him to have won the 2016 Super Cup despite him not being in the squad" would just be unnecessarily convoluted. – Pee Jay 16:04, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Unnecessary honours

I'm not exactly an expert on Maltese football so I'm not sure what trophies count as notable or not but I'm pretty sure that Floriana F.C. have no right to a trophy section that size. Could someone more familiar with Maltese football help out? REDMAN 2019 (talk) 18:58, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I've cleaned it up, keeping only the notable competitions. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:13, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

kooora.com

I think this talk page is nice place to inform about Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Reliability of kooora.com Personally, I have no idea about this source. Cheers, --SVTCobra 04:42, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Stadiums and personnel and kits

Hello! Can you add a section for stadiums and personnel and kits for the First Division from 1989 until 1992. Yours sincerely, Sondre --88.89.14.227 (talk) 15:00, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

Do it yourself, you lazy git. – Pee Jay 15:11, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

@88.89.14.227: What PeeJay is trying to say is that it is a big task which can't just be added overnight. You can feel free to help though. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 11:26, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

No, what I'm trying to say is that this anonymous editor should stop coming in here to request people do stuff for them. If they are incapable, they should ask a bit more tactfully, but otherwise there's no reason they should be asking other editors to do this work. – Pee Jay 12:03, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

@PeeJay OK but maybe you should not have called the IP "Lazy Git" Dr Salvus 12:05, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. – Pee Jay 12:25, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

WP:NOBITING. Pretty much all I need to say. REDMAN 2019 (talk) 18:47, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

This isn't the first time that editor has come in here demanding that other people do stuff for them. They're no longer a newcomer. – Pee Jay 11:58, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Pelé (footballer, born 1978)

Can anyone please find (or know where to find) this player's A.F.C. Totton stats? Last entry read 0/0, but i doubt very much he had that over FOUR seasons; Soccerbase shows nothing in that regard, surprisingly or not...

Kind regards, thanks in advance --193.137.135.2 (talk) 16:43, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Totton's stats aren't on anywhere I know to look.--Echetus Xe 19:24, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

[1] Includes Scottish Cup, FA Cup

[2] Includes Scottish League Cup, EFL Cup

[UEL-3] Appearance(s) in UEFA Europa League

[UCL-4] Appearance(s) in UEFA Champions League

[UEL-5] Appearance(s) in UEFA Europa League

[UCL-6] Appearance(s) in UEFA Champions League

[SFC_FPA-7] "Les Cant". Southport FC Former Players Association. Retrieved 26 September 2021.

[CWGC-8] "Casualty Details: Leslie Cant". Commonwealth War Graves Commission. Retrieved 26 September 2021.

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[d]

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[b]

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