Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Korea

List of South Korean girl groups has an RfC

List of South Korean girl groups, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you.

Restaurants

I've been realizing that our coverage of restaurants in both Koreas is pretty poor. Before my additions, a lot of Category:Restaurants in South Korea was chains, fast food, or family restaurants. Compare to Category:Restaurants in New York City; fantastic coverage in this category.

I created this template {{Historic restaurants in South Korea}} and wrote all the articles in it at present.

Also, if you're interested in North Korean restaurants those need coverage too. I'm unlikely to get around to those. seefooddiet (talk) 14:02, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Also working on List of Michelin-starred restaurants in South Korea and List of oldest restaurants in South Korea. Even if you don't edit on these, give these lists a peek and try visiting a few of the restaurants on here. seefooddiet (talk) 05:07, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Seefooddiet I've created Bluefin Tuna and Sushi, which originated in Seoul and operates in Portland, Oregon. I am curious if you or other project members might be able to find additional information about this restaurant's operation in Korea, or even confirm if the business still operates there. As always, any article improvements are welcome. Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:20, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Can't seem to find RS coverage of the restaurant from when it was in South Korea.

I'm not sure if they have locations in Seoul at present. There's a restaurant with that name currently in Seongnam (I think I've actually seen it in person before lol). Cities like Seongnam are sometimes considered "metropolitan Seoul", so they may just be handwavey calling it "Seoul", like how people in Jersey City tell others they live in "New York City". Possible that's the restaurant in question, but unfortunately no RS I can find. seefooddiet (talk) 00:56, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for taking a look! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 14:03, 6 September 2024 (UTC)

Request for comment for including specificity (K-pop) in South Korean artist labeling in the lead

Should South Korean girl groups like Blackpink and NewJeans be referred to as "South Korean K-pop girl group" in the lead? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 20:00, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Adding onto the restrictive RfC. Should South Korean boy band (for example: BTS, Super Junior, Seventeen, NCT, NCT Dream, NCT 127, Exo etc) or South Korean singer (for example: Taeyeon, IU, Jennie, Jimin, Jungkook, etc) or South Korean rapper (for example: RM, Lisa, Jeon So-yeon, Zico, Lee Young-ji, Moonbyul, etc) be referred to as "South Korean K-pop boy band" or "South Korean K-pop singer" or "South Korean K-pop rapper" , respectively, in the lead? — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 20:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: I'm strongly against it, as it feels a bit excessive. Btspurplegalaxy 💬 🖊️ 02:38, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Question: has consensus ever been established on whether k-pop is only a genre vs also being an industry and its practices?

I'm asking mostly out of intellectual curiosity. I don't think it's that important to have "k-pop" in the first sentence, even if there is a consensus on this topic. A significant chunk of people globally know that k-pop is South Korean pop music, not worried anyone will misunderstand the situation or not link these groups to k-pop. seefooddiet (talk) 04:17, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

@Seefooddiet The page K-pop referes to the broader meaning of industry practices on lead. There are countless references to support it.

Also I want to make it clear, since the title of the RfC was modified after I opened it, that I edited specific pages where I feel the sources more than adequately refer to the groups as "Kpop group". I had no intention of modifying 20+ pages in a sweep. Also note that two of the pages I had edited currently don't have *any* reference to K-pop on lead. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 12:15, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Again, as long as "k-pop" is mentioned prominently in the first few sentences, I don't think this debate is that important. Those articles missing it in the lead should have it added somewhere, but I don't care where, as long as the prose flows naturally. Could be any of the first few sentences. The net effect will be indistinguishable. seefooddiet (talk) 18:59, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

I mean that would be at least something. For me that is the prose that flows more naturally, because that is how the vast majority of the sources call them. I am not against at least having some kind of direct reference to K-pop. I've just noticed that actually for NewJeans there is a reference to K-pop in the lead, I had missed it because for me this kind of formulation is hilariously indirect.

"the former becoming the longest-running song on the Billboard Global 200 by a K-pop female act."

Using "by a K-pop female act" without previously establishing that they are one doesn't flow naturally at all for me. What do you think? Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:19, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

If it seems indirect, I'm ok with revising the article to make it more direct. First sentence mention I'm not strict on. That's all I have to add to this topic; I'm repeating myself at this point seefooddiet (talk) 17:23, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

That's something.

I am not strict on first sentence either, I just think that the lead should be able to include the K-pop term not exclusivelly as a genre but as a set of industry practices. This was your first question and I've seen no argument against it yet. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 17:35, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

There's no "aha" moment here; this is the same opinion I've had since the beginning. The question had no bearing on my opinion. seefooddiet (talk) 20:58, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: Wikipedia does not use "American pop singer" or "English pop singer" in the lede of those artists, so why exactly should there be "South Korean K-pop group" or what not in the lede for K-pop artists? I don't see a convincing argument here. ɴᴋᴏɴ21 ❯❯❯ talk 04:52, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

  Because it is the most concise way to refer to a complex set of industry practices that do not only relate to a musical genre. This is the exact same thing that "girl group" does by the way, only with a different scope. Maybe my argument is not convincing, but at least it should be taken into consideration instead of exclusivelly talking about K-pop as a genre. Also, I looked up the opening of the Britney Spears article.

  "Britney Jean Spears (born December 2, 1981) is an American singer. Often referred to as the "Princess of Pop", she is credited with influencing the revival of teen pop during the late 1990s and early 2000s."

  She gets an immediate mention to her most prominent genre, this, at the very least, seems mandatory to me. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:09, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

• Support: K-pop is increasingly becoming an international genre, encompassing groups not just from South Korea. Much like how Latin singers come from all over. See UK's Dear Alice, US's VCHA and Katseye, Japan's NiziU and Nexz, China's BOY STORY and WayV, and Blackswan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Symphidius (talk • contribs) 02:38, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: I believe that it is unnecessary to require a mention of K-pop in the first sentence of a lead. However, I do believe it can be integrated into the lead of articles in a relevant way. For example, the creator of this RFC used Britney Spears as an example. Her lead reads:

"Britney Jean Spears (born December 2, 1981) is an American singer. Often referred to as the "Princess of Pop", she is credited with influencing the revival of teen pop during the late 1990s and early 2000s."

Her connection to pop is integrated in a relevant way rather than having American pop singer in the first sentence. I believe South Korean girl groups should follow the same lead. For example, in the Blackpink article K-pop is mentioned prominently in the lead:

"Blackpink is a South Korean girl group formed by YG Entertainment. The group is composed of four members: Jisoo, Jennie, Rosé, and Lisa. They are stylistically associated with the "girl crush" concept in K-pop, which explores themes of self-confidence and female empowerment."

Both of these examples get immediate mentions of the prominent genres they operate in and their place within the context of that genre, which is the way we should be handling this in my opinion. Putting K-pop in the first sentence is not necessary. Flabshoe1 (talk) 19:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

Well articulated, this is what I support. seefooddiet (talk) 19:54, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I also support what Flabshoe1 said. 98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂 • [𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺] 20:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)

I can also support this. I've gradually understood that not relegating K-pop as a simple term to put together with girl group could actually benefit the lead by developping the K-pop connection in a second paragraph, for exemple.

Especially because groups that are associated with K-pop have leads that seem, to me, as mostly filled with achievements and prizes. So there is space. It is just much more work, but it makes sense. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:56, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: Excessive, just mention K-pop in the lede as @Flabshoe1 mentions. Even the definition of K-pop is hard to say and disputed. If we’re talking about Japanese or American, they naturally stray even farther from that definition, so I don’t see why it is relevant that its becoming an popular international genre. Keep it the way it is. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 05:26, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

While i do support Flabshoe1 as well, I want to say that putting it as a simple term was the less disputable version I could have imagined. I was clearly wrong. But when I'll try to even add the slightest controversy to a lead section while refering to K-pop I doubt it will go better. Despite definitions or analysis being sourced. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 13:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

I get what you mean. This is why I mostly make/contribute to the pages of the SK films and production companies instead. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 08:08, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Yea. Cinemaandpolitics (talk) 18:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:East Asian age reckoning#Requested move 21 July 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:East Asian age reckoning#Requested move 21 July 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Reading Beans 10:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Gangwon Province (Korea)#Requested move 5 August 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Gangwon Province (Korea)#Requested move 5 August 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 06:04, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

SPA

A newly-arrived SPA has been removing the claimed hanja for the 'gul' of hangul, and changing romanisation. They claim "nonsense", which is not likely. See Special:Contributions/218.158.10.163. Can someone please look at it (I am not remotely a Korean expert.) Imaginatorium (talk) 10:07, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the user is correct, and they provide reasonable evidence for their point. See this related explanation in our upcoming draft MOS. seefooddiet (talk) 22:58, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Draft:Good Entertainment

Can someone provide some assistance at Draft:Good Entertainment? Although I wish I spoke more than one language, I do not and cannot seem to properly copy and paste into Google Translate. Can someone opine as to the reliability of the sources and if they feel the company as a whole would meet WP:NCORP based on those sources (using WP:ORGCRIT)? CNMall41 (talk) 05:05, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

I doubt either Good Entertainment or its parent company GoodEMG will meet WP:ORGCRIT. Many of the Korean sources seem to be reliable (Yonhap News, Naver Encyclopedia, etc.), but all of them do not contain significant coverage of the subject except for the one from Naver ([1]). The rest are articles which only contain trivial mentions of the company. -- 00101984hjw (talk) 21:38, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

A quick naver search does reveal an article which talks about the company's contract with Shinhwa in 2003 and 2006 ([2][3]) and some other details about the company as well, like how it acquired a company listed on KOSDAQ in 2005 ([4])and was dissolved in 2008 after Shinhwa members were drafted into military service ([5]).

However, I'm not sure if that's enough sources to meet WP:ORGCRIT. Other Korean-speaking editors may know better. - 00101984hjw (talk) 21:51, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

North Korea style guideline

Hello, if you haven't already seen we're working on rewriting MOS:KO and WP:NCKO. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Korea (2024 Rewrite & Proposal) (talk page).

Publicizing a proposal I made for the MOS. See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Korea (2024 Rewrite & Proposal)#Romanization for North Korea articles...

Tl;dr what I'm proposing is effectively the status quo for North Korean romanization (McCune–Reischauer and not NK's romanization), except for having all MR personal names not having hyphens or spaces in them.

I want to hash this out because 1. there seemingly hasn't been an adequate past discussion on why we don't use NK's romanization and 2. I want to avoid mixing/matching NK romanization style guidelines with MR style guidelines. seefooddiet (talk) 17:46, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

No commenters so far; please note that this is a major topic with significant impact. Its implications could affect almost every North Korea-related article on Wikipedia. If no discussion from this Wikiproject, I may move to an RfC, which I'm hesitant about because this topic requires some subject matter expertise that others may lack. seefooddiet (talk) 18:41, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Name order for South Korean ICC judge

Hi – I asked this question at the help desk, but it wasn’t answered and someone suggested to ask it here. I hope you can enlighten me :-)

I want to create a stub on the South Korean judge Keebong Paek who was recently elected to the International Criminal Court (ICC), and I'm trying to figure out the appropriate name order. WP:NCKO says "Unless the subject is known to prefer otherwise, family name should be written first." This promotional video for his ICC candidacy published by the South Korean Foreign Ministry refers to him as Keebong Paek (which is the Western name order, given name first). I'm not sure whether I should infer from this that "the subject is known to prefer otherwise" – for all I know, the Ministry might have a policy of Westernization and he might be opposed to it. But this is also the form of the name that's consistently used to refer to him at the ICC, and even a Google search restricted to .kr sites yields a lot more hits for Keebong Paek than for Paek Keebong. On the other hand, a tweet from the Foreign Ministry (that published the above video) upon his election refers to him as Paek Keebong, and that's also the title of the article in the German Wikipedia (the only one that has an article so far).

I feel that much speaks in favour of using the form Keebong Paek that all his work at the ICC (by far his most prominent activity so far) will be associated with, but it would be a stretch to say that the subject is known to prefer it. How to resolve this?

Joriki (talk) 16:52, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I would title the article Keebong Paek, given its usage by both MOFA and the ICC, and apparently being more common. If he goes by that name at the ICC, it is likely that future sources will also predominantly refer to him as Keebong Paek. If there is ever a clear statement of personal preference, it can always be moved. CMD (talk) 17:15, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: Thanks for your reply! I’ve created the article now: Keebong Paek. I added an explanatory note about the name order. Joriki (talk) 20:50, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

People names MOS

Just submitted a proposed modification to our people naming conventions guideline, see here.

Main takeaways:

• It's largely the same as current guidelines, but with I think stronger theoretical backing on each of the decisions.
• The technical details address several ambiguities that have previously caused confusion.
• Hyphens in names only for South Korean people.
• We recently decided to not use North Korean romanization. This means using MR for North Korean names and no spaces or hyphens between syllables in the given name, unless that's the known established English-language spelling.

For details on the research and reasoning, see this WIP essay. Also note that this MOS is still pending; follow the old MOS until it gets approved.

This was begrudgingly complicated, but hopefully this MOS will be clear for years to come. Let's hope one system eventually wins out in future; that'll let us simplify this. seefooddiet (talk) 06:53, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Reminder to participate here. Need to receive at least some approval before we can rewrite the people name section. seefooddiet (talk) 09:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok, rewrite is completed: here. seefooddiet (talk) 03:16, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Women in Green's October 2024 edit-a-thon

Hello WikiProject Korea:

WikiProject Women in Green is holding a month-long Good Article Edit-a-thon event in October 2024!

Running from October 1 to 31, 2024, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) edit-a-thon event with the theme Around the World in 31 Days! All experience levels welcome. Never worked on a GA project before? We'll teach you how to get started. Or maybe you're an old hand at GAs – we'd love to have you involved! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to women and women's works (e.g., books, films) during the event period. We hope to collectively cover article subjects from at least 31 countries (or broader international articles) by month's end. GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to earn a special WiG barnstar for their efforts.

We hope to see you there!

Grnrchst (talk) 12:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

Fyi to anyone who might be ineterested, Shin Saimdang, Heo Nanseolheon, Queen Seondeok of Silla, Yu Gwan-sun, Nongae, Francesca Donner, and Park Geun-hye are all non-GA's. -- 00101984hjw (talk) 14:18, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Nomination for deletion of Okjeo language

Okjeo language has been nominated for deletion. Comments are welcome at the discussion. Kanguole 22:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

What to do?

@Jae winwin: is active on a number of airport articles in Asia. It is an editor who never ever adds sources to an addition, never ever responded on attempts to communicate and often removes connection without explaining why. Very annoying, but he is not a vandal. After all, part of his edits are valid (removing start dates of new connections, removing connections after they ended). He has a talk page full of warnings but zero response. I tried to approach him in multiple languages, but zero response. I am at wits end, what do do next? The Banner talk 17:39, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Mobile edits, so possible a WP:THEYCANTHEARYOU situation. In the past, a short block has been used to catch TCHY editors attention, however it is risky. This sort of editing seems common on airport articles at any rate. CMD (talk) 18:44, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

@The Banner: WP:TCHY is a possibility. However, this has been going on for months. You could report them to WP:ANI, or talk directly to an admin to get more guidance. - Ïvana (talk) 18:50, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

An earlier AN/I report led to nothing.

But seeing all my additions reverted, I would get curious at some point and want to know why... The Banner talk 18:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

Have you tried sending an email via the "email this user" function? seefooddiet (talk) 20:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

No mail address available. The Banner talk 02:11, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Pretty likely they're just ignoring feedback. They've made over a thousand edits. Feel like some kind of sanction is appropriate, even if temporary just to get their attention. Surprised nothing was done seefooddiet (talk) 02:50, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Kim Woo-jin#Requested move 13 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Kim Woo-jin#Requested move 13 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 98𝚃𝙸𝙶𝙴𝚁𝙸𝚄𝚂 ^{[𝚃𝙰𝙻𝙺]} 07:55, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:NCT (group)#Requested move 13 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:NCT (group)#Requested move 13 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RachelTensions (talk) 16:53, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Kim Jong-hyun#Requested move 22 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Kim Jong-hyun#Requested move 22 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RachelTensions (talk) 23:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Choi Min-ho#Requested move 22 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Choi Min-ho#Requested move 22 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RachelTensions (talk) 23:48, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Jaehyun (singer)#Requested move 26 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Jaehyun (singer)#Requested move 26 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RachelTensions (talk) 21:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Wen Junhui#Requested move 26 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Wen Junhui#Requested move 26 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RachelTensions (talk) 22:54, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Kim Hyo-yeon#Requested move 1 October 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Kim Hyo-yeon#Requested move 1 October 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RachelTensions (talk) 01:58, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd recommend putting move notices here if a move has been contested or needs more participation in order to pass seefooddiet (talk) 03:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

New MOS is ready

The new version of the MOS is finally ready!

Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Korea (2024 Rewrite & Proposal)

I'll be making it official in the near future by splitting it back into MOS:KO and WP:NCKO. If you have any concerns please voice them as soon as possible.

I think this is the first major overhaul the MOS has received since the first version of the MOS in 2004; it's nice to finally resolve a lot of repeated confusions we've had over the years.

Tl;dr of the major changes:

• One goal was to reflect current practice; you probably won't notice tons of major changes. The changes are mainly meant to resolve the confusing edge cases.
• Most changes you'll probably notice are for page titles.
  • Pages for districts that have "-gu" will be moved to " District".
  • Most pages impacted are about Korean history and North Korea. Unless WP:COMMONNAME is known, those pages should default to McCune–Reischauer, which asks for diacritics and no hyphenation or spaces in the given names of people.
  • Many pages will probably get moved in quick succession. Each time a page is moved, any mentions of that page in other articles should also use that new spelling. Post a request at User:Seefooddiet/AWB requests and I can automatically update those spellings for you.
• Whenever a template (like {{Infobox Korean name}}) asks for RR or MR, there should be no hyphens or spaces in given names. For South Korean people, that means their article title could be "Lee Ha-na", but their RR and MR should be "I Hana".
• Do not put Hangul next to terms if they already have their own article (except if you're explaining etymology).
• Do not put Hanja in the first parentheses for South Korea–related topics if the Hanja is already in {{Infobox Korean name}}.
• A number of practices have become prohibited or discouraged:
  • Using hyphens to disambiguate pronunciation (e.g. N Hae-undae).
  • Displaying optional hyphens (e.g. N Hong Gil(-)dong or N Haeundae (Hae-undae)).
  • Using title case for romanized titles of works. Instead, use sentence case (e.g. N Samguk Yusa Y Samguk yusa).
  • Using the Korean calendar for dates. Instead, use the Gregorian or Julian calendar.
  • Using tildes (~) for date ranges. Instead, use the endash (–).
• Use Yale romanization for historical linguistics examples, use RR for the linguistics of modern Korean.

Thank you to everyone who contributed to the new MOS! It was a big and difficult project; involved a lot of research and debate. Hoping that these clarifications and standardizations make using Wikipedia easier for you. seefooddiet (talk) 06:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Really nice work! I'm sorry to say I wasn't able to offer any input on this but I've seen what you've been working on and this is a great result. orangesclub 🍊 07:30, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Is there a script that could go through and correct all instances hyphenation in RR and MR in Template:Infobox Korean name? I don't have any stats but I imagine the list of articles requiring updating will be quite large (maybe I'm wrong) RachelTensions (talk) 20:05, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we could use regex to do so with WP:AWB. I may implement that. seefooddiet (talk) 20:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Actually, that is not the only issue with RR and MR parameters in Korean-related templates. Ideally they should all be replaced with module-generated values. 172.56.232.246 (talk) 22:18, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Yuta Nakamoto#Requested move 27 September 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Yuta Nakamoto#Requested move 27 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RachelTensions (talk) 20:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)