Wikipedia talk:Teahouse/Host lounge/Archive 6

This is an archive of past discussions on Wikipedia:Teahouse. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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New subpage?

Hey all hosts, and other editors alike. I've been participating in the Teahouse since its inception. Since the last two months or so, I've seen a steady increase in new editors requesting help for their AFC submission. Also, the Article for Creation helper script has an option to help notify article creators about the Teahouse. To help sort out the non-AFC questions from the other inquiries, I think it would be smart for there to be a separate page for help on AfC submissions, like at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/AfC help, or something along those lines. I would like additional input from other editors about this proposal. Thanks. -- Luke (Talk) 19:44, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, I don't dislike the idea, but I guess I think that it's added complexity with little benefit. I mean, what real harm is coming from having the AfC questions in with the mix (although there are admittedly a lot of them)? A lot of cliches come to mind (KISS, solution in search of a problem, etc. etc. you get the idea), but I really am just not sure that we should make it any more complex than it needs to be. Very willing to be persuaded otherwise, though. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:49, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

+1 A major reason for the Teahouse is to reduce the apparent complexity of Wikipedia for new users. heather walls (talk) 20:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps the helper script notification should be modified. Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk already exists. The template an editor receives through AFC directs them to comment there if they have questions about AFC; however, it does it in a minor way. The template is Wikipedia:Teahouse/AfC Invitation. Ryan Vesey 19:50, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I understand you Writ Keeper, I just think it will be easier for hosts to reply directly to AfC submission help. Like you said, there is a lot of sections for help regarding the editor's AFC submission and sorting out the help sections would help sort out AFC help from non-AFC help. -- Luke (Talk) 20:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

What do you mean by "directly"? Why is it important to sort out the kinds of help? heather walls (talk) 20:11, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that it will help seperate AfC questions from other questions, but that's just my opinion. I like things to be organized, but that's just me. In addition, I think it would help new editors see answers to questions they might have about their AfC submission before posting a new question. -- Luke (Talk) 21:21, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi there. I agree with Writ. I'm not supportive of anything that makes the space more cluttered, or more complex in regards to where people should get help. I think it's great that we have questions in general, we need more of them. People asking questions at the Teahouse versus the AfC Help perhaps proves something similar to those who choose to come to the Teahouse versus the Help Desk. Some people just prefer the Teahouse. If people aren't comfortable or don't have desire to answer questions from AfC people - then they don't have too :) The end goal of the Teahouse is to provide new editors with support, and if people are writing articles and awaiting reviews, we are supporting those people. I am not bothered by their questions - I think we're meeting the Teahouse mission by supporting all editors. Heck, I've even seen Hosts answer questions for newbies who ask things that aren't even related to "how to" edit - reference desk questions. On a related note, I did bold the AfC help desk link in the AfC template. SarahStierch (talk) 20:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

And as someone who is active as an inviter of AfC people and also is a part of WikiProject:AfC, I'd rather answer questions here and have peer support at doing it than get my talk page bombarded with AfC people. I also think it's a way we can support our brothers and sisters at AfC - when the backlog hits 500+ they need support, and if we can provide support for them - and even do some occasional reviews ourselves (And really, it doesn't take that much time) - then we're doing a good deed! SarahStierch (talk) 20:09, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I think your bold was a good one. It is fine for editors to ask AfC questions here; however, I felt like the intention of the template was for AfC questions to be asked primarily at the AfC help desk and other questions to be answered here. Since only the Teahouse was bolded, I felt like editors didn't even notice the other available opportunity. Ryan Vesey 20:12, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I would think that having a separate page would make it easier for editors to find their AfC question in the massive amounts of inquiries. I see where you're coming from though. -- Luke (Talk) 20:34, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

At least while the question is current (has not been archived) the talkback templates should link them straight back to their question. Does that solve that problem a bit? heather walls (talk) 20:26, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Writ Keeper's first comment (and with Sarah's bolding of the AFCHD link). benzband (talk) 20:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't want a separate page for AFC questions either for all the reasons given above. Also I can see a page that only has AFC question on it getting very repetitive, very rapidly - there aren't that many variations on how to express "what is notability", "it needs more references", "less original research". NtheP (talk) 20:53, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

New Teahouse Guest Barnstar

Could someone create a Teahouse Guest barnstar? I know newer editors may be discouraged if nobody gives them a barnstar for a certain amount of time. It would be great if we gave new guests a barnstar. Ryan Vesey 22:19, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I think I would quite enjoy that task :). I'll try to get one up before the end of tomorrow. hajat vrc @ 22:25, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Your input is needed: Phase 2 - Host improvements

Hi everyone. We've been working hard to develop a game plan for Phase 2's Host improvements! We're ready for your feedback (on the talk page on meta) and if you feel inclined - for you to sign up to participate in the host improvement sprint. You can find the host improvement page here. Looking forward to your feedback and participation! GO TEAM! SarahStierch (talk) 00:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I have added some questions/feedback on the talk page of the page you linked to, "meta:Research:Teahouse/Hosting". I hope that was the right place! hajat vrc @ 04:22, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

New hosts (part two)

Hi everyone. We have some new hosts! Welcome to the gang :)

Hajatvrc
Keilana
Electriccatfish2
Doctree - Doctree was originally a guest as a new editor at the Teahouse. He is our first host who went from new editor to new host!! :)
Dalahäst
Osarius
Floating Boat
Ebikeguy

Thank you all for your participation at the Teahouse. We look forward to your contributions.

Note to all: Right now we have more hosts than we do guests - so don't forget to promote and invite people to the Teahouse!! Also, a great place to share the wikilove is our guest page, where guests can create profiles! Stop by and visit our newest guests and send them some wikilove on their talk pages today (And encourage them to visit the Teahouse). SarahStierch (talk) 16:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the welcome Sarah! Keilana|^{Parlez ici} 17:01, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I still vote that we throw a party! Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:25, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I am loosking forward to helping out. Thanks for the opportunity! Now I need to think of a clever quote for my slot on the "hosts" page. Cheers, Ebikeguy (talk) 17:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Yay! Can't wait to help out! FloBo A boat that can float! 17:56, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Hello everyone! Thank you Sarah - I shall start the discussion we spoke about last week very soon! Osarius - Want a chat? 17:59, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Great news Osarius. This is the right place to help brainstorm, too. I know Benzband and a few other folks have tried hard for it.. SarahStierch (talk) 18:17, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

A great big "Hello" from PumaHost! :) Brambleberry ^{☾of RC☽} 19:32, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi! benzband (talk) 20:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Hello all new hosts! -- Luke (Talk) 20:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks guys, and congratulations Sarah on your successful RFA! I'm an AFC Reviewer and I also send a Teahouse invitation after reviewing a submission. Best, Electric Catfish 20:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC).

Hey all, glad to be on board. dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 21:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I realise I'm a day late, but - "Hello new hosts!" Moswento ^talky 09:00, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

You have a barnstar!

	The Teamwork Barnstar
	To the Teahouse team. benzband (talk) 09:09, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Hey, that's awesome :) Go team! SarahStierch (talk) 18:31, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The Teahouse Guest Barnstar!

Give out this barnstar to new editors who show good faith and ask questions at the Teahouse (because they are all awesome)!

	Teahouse Guest Barnstar
	For displaying the makings of a truly great Wikipedian—the ability to ask great questions! ~~~~ {{subst:4~}}

{{subst:Teahouse Guest Barnstar|1=Put your message here. ~~~~}}

First recipient: User:Charlie Inks!

This has been added to the Teahouse templates page. hajat vrc @ 23:26, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I modified the template to automatically sign and to provide "For displaying the makings of a truly great Wikipedian—the ability to ask great questions!" as a default if no message is set. Ryan Vesey 15:41, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Strong support - I know this isn't a discussion, but I just like it.

Brambleberry ^{☾of RC☽} 19:50, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Nice work Hajatvrc! Have you thought to add it to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Wikipedia Awards? I'm sure others would like it too. :) -- Luke (Talk) 17:38, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Fly On the Wall

Hi All,

As a new host, I've been watching the action without participating. I guess I want to get a feel for the place before I start answering the guest questions. I see that hosts are expected to be active, so I hope my caution is okay. Am I being too shy? Also, I am going to be travelling for a week starting on Sunday, 8/5 without internet access, so I'll be inactive during that time. Ebikeguy (talk) 17:20, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Hey Ebikeguy! We do not put strict activity rules on our hosts. We want them to be able to contribute in whatever capacity they can, as long as what they do do is friendly and helpful. Trying to get a feel for the place is totally understandable. hajat vrc @ 17:23, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ha, I'd say you are being too shy! That's the same concern that kept me from signing on as a host for a while, back in the day. Then I talked to some people, thought about it a l'il, and said "eff it, I'm gonna go for it", and I haven't looked back since. Much the same reasoning that got me started on Wikipedia, and really most things I do. I know that everyone always tells you to think before you act, but impulsiveness has served me pretty well so far. :) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:24, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

+1 to those. You prompted my post below :) heather walls (talk) 17:58, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

What do hosts do?

Hi all! You are all so fantastic it warms my heart. I just wanted to remind you that while answering questions is important, there are lots of other things for hosts to do...

Invite new editors! It's not easy to find your way around WP—help people get here.
Welcome new editors that have asked questions or introduced themselves on the guest page. Just say hello, show them that Wikipedia is full of awesome people.
Give wiki-love to your excellent fellow hosts with that little red heart you see in the upper right when looking at someone's userpage.
Help with the next phase of the Teahouse.

Any other ideas? heather walls (talk) 17:54, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Great ideas Heather! I have another suggestion: ping hosts that you think might be better versed in a specific question. We have lots of hosts who might not get to answer questions because fellow speedy hosts get to it - but, it'd be great to ping other hosts to get involved in the conversation. Sometimes even hosts need to be invited to answer questions at the start :) SarahStierch (talk) 18:34, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I think that there should be an extra part of the form that includes your areas of expertise, because it might be a thing that some miss in their intro. I know I don't know anything about programming (don't bother teaching me, it's not worth it), but I'm a big writer and will also do an occasional copyedit. Even when I added the Q&A to my watchlist, though, it seemed like the only new questions I caught were about programming. Brambleberry ^{☾of RC☽} 18:58, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Invitation suggestion and general question

This is following on a previous thread where I had an idea for an invitation only to find out that I had completely missed the point of the discussion. I was thinking that this could be an alternative to the first invitation and wanted to get some consensus:

Welcome to Wikipedia, Teahouse! Thank you for your contributions! If you need help with anything, please visit the Teahouse, where experienced editors like myself answer any questions a new editor may have. Happy editing!

Also, I was wondering something: which Teahouse logo do you prefer: or ? Personally I prefer the former because of the design. Brambleberry ^{☾of RC☽} 19:04, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

We're currently doing some A/B testing on invitations. See meta:Research:Teahouse/Invites Ryan Vesey 19:06, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I like it Brambleberry! If you want some help putting together a new template with different images I'm sure lots of hosts would be happy to help. This thanks template can also be used for anything as the message is custom. heather walls (talk) 19:13, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

The logo question was just to see what was preferred; I'm just curious. I wanted to get some consensus on the invitation to see if it would serve well as a general invitation, but if people like it but wouldn't use it, I would change it to be

and just use that to welcome people. Brambleberry ^{☾of RC☽} 19:18, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I use both images depending on the mood I am in!

I do have a question regarding emailing guests. Does anyone have an opinion as to whether emails from too many hosts may be a little overwhelming? I am sometimes afraid of emailing guests who have already received an invite on their talk page because I do not know if they have already been emailed by the host who invited them. Our Database report shows who was invited, but not who was emailed. hajat vrc @ 19:24, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Maybe it would be a good idea to also place a "Check your email!" template so everyone knows, including the guest. hajat vrc @ 19:25, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

And maybe even registering that template with HostBot so it/he/she can add that to the DB report? hajat vrc @ 19:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't use e-mail for Wikipedia. I didn't even enter an address into the server. Brambleberry ^{☾of RC☽} 19:33, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

How about replacing "welcome to Wikipedia […] thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia" with "welcome to Wikipedia […] thank you for your contributions"? benzband (talk) 20:27, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. (sorry for the lateness, I was distracted). Brambleberry ^{☾of RC☽} 20:36, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Feedback on fellowship proposal related to Teahouse

Hi everybody! As you probably know, experimenting with different ways to acknowledge participation and contribution is something we'd like to do during phase 2 of the Teahouse project. The fellowships program has gotten a fellowship idea proposing to experiment with badges in the Teahouse, which obviously has potential to tie into the work being planned. It would be great if anyone wants to have a look, please share your thoughts there (feedback, concerns, endorsement, suggestions, whatever), to help us evaluate the project idea. Thanks! Siko (talk) 01:17, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:WER

Hi everyone, I got a nice message on my talk page from Dennis about WP:WER. Please take a look, and if you're feeling bold, do just that :) See it here: User_talk:SarahStierch#Teahouse_2. SarahStierch (talk) 21:27, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking for input on invitation templates.

Hello, all! I was wondering if anyone had any opinion about whether or not a general welcome template coupled with a graphical Teahouse invite is better than a welcome template with a link to the Teahouse in it. I have two points about this. First, when I received my first welcome template I did not follow any of the links; it felt like an impersonal mass message that did not actually invite me to go anywhere. Second, I think that the graphical invitation, which includes a nice Teahouse-related picture AND an explicit invitation, would be much more effective. It lets the user know that an actual host of the Teahouse sent it to them personally. The links in the welcome templates do not stand out, and the link to the Teahouse in the Teahouse-specific ones get lost in the rest of the template.

I know there have been many conversations in the past at the Host lounge that were dedicated to generating welcome templates with Teahouse links in them. But is the current state of them really the way? If we do have a more general welcome template that also has a link to the Teahouse, should we not make that link more pronounced and make it very clear that they are being personally invited to be our guest? I would be more-than-willing to reformat them myself, but I was looking for any opinions on this matter.

I also wanted to add that if you did not read this topic on Charlie Inks' talk page, I would urge you to do so. It is absolute corroboration that the Teahouse works! I think it is even more reason why we should create more personal welcome templates. LONG LIVE THE TEAHOUSE! hajat vrc @ 19:29, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

This is similar but not directly related. I created {{Welcome only}} in response to WP:First contact. It basically runs on the premise that we should invite someone to the community. Learning policy can come later. It might be too short right now, but I'm hoping to create a friendly template that is all about the welcome. Advice and comments would be appreciated. Ryan Vesey 19:33, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I do really like the personalization there; the only thing I would add is an explanation of what the Teahouse actually is—and maybe a nice WikiLove-related picture! hajat vrc @ 19:45, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I too like the template! :) Though, IMO it might be better to include a single link to Teahouse or Help Desk, rather than both, to avoid confusing the recipient. Another alternative would be WP:Questions. benzband (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Adding too much explanation or a picture ([1]) might dwarf the actual welcome message and defeat the purpose of a welcome-only template. benzband (talk) 19:51, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Excellent last point, though WP:Questions sure is a noisy page. hajat vrc @ 19:55, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Personally, what I would prefer to see would be the teahouse logo (either one) with a message that said: "Welcome to Wikipedia, (insert username)! Thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia! If you need help with anything, please visit the Teahouse, where experienced editors like myself answer questions placed on the Q&A. Happy editing! (signature)". Just a thought. Brambleberry ^{☾of RC☽} 19:56, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

As a comment, I created this related to comments at WP:WER so I didn't intend for it to be a Teahouse invite. I would like to see it used commonly as an invite for editors throughout Wikipedia. Ryan Vesey 20:01, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

After seeing that template I would just like to do away with all of the bigger welcome templates. I think it prudent for any host who wishes to have his or her own personalized message that emphasizes welcome-only. Some hosts may only use it for Teahouse purposes, and other may use it more generally. Both, I think, are perfectly fine! hajat vrc @ 20:18, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

We could also set up a space in the Lounge for users to share these, as opposed to listing those policy-related mass welcome templates. hajat vrc @ 20:20, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

So, this goes a little bit against the purpose of the template, but I'm thinking of linking to Help:Contents in a minor way. I had a brief discussion with my newest (and very promising) adoptee. (Who I found because she is a guest at the Teahouse, yay!) She received a rather bulky template; however, she said she liked it because it contained many links. I feel that at a minimum the template should direct the welcomed user to an area where they can find those links. Something like "Hi (username)! I'm so glad you decided to volunteer your time to the encyclopedia. Everyone is welcome here and I hope you enjoy your time spent editing. If you need any assistance, please feel free to contact me or seek assistance at the Teahouse. You can also find some useful links at our help page." Ryan Vesey 20:25, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good! :)

@ Hajatvrc: are you thinking of Wikipedia:Teahouse/Host lounge/Templates? benzband (talk) 20:35, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. hajat vrc @ 20:40, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

How about WP:Introduction? benzband (talk) 21:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

complex question in a guest intro

I came across this question while archiving guest intros just now. Don't have time to answer it myself at the moment. Anyone feel like wading in? - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 20:41, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Done benzband (talk) 21:30, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 20:46, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Bilby and I on national Australian radio talking Teahouse

Myself and Bilby, a former Teahouse host, were on national Australian radio talking about gender gap - we talked a lot about the Teahouse!! You can hear the interview here. SarahStierch (talk) 16:50, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

That's awesome! Can we get you on NPR? Ryan Vesey 16:51, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I wish! BBC and NPR are still yet to be conquered (I did have the honor of being on the CBC a few months back). It's really an honor to be able to talk about the cool project's WE are doing!! SarahStierch (talk) 16:58, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I tried listening online and downloading it but apparently i don't have the right plugins for the former and the latter displays a 404 error :( benzband (talk) 17:42, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Too bad it's not licensed under CC (it isn't right?). Then we could add it here. Ryan Vesey 21:23, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

The .au site went down for a while. Probably a slash/dot crash as all of us tried to download or listen at once. Try it again benzband. You should be able to download it now. DocTree (talk) 00:00, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, i have. benzband (talk) 21:33, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Please don't stop inviting!

Please don't stop inviting people to the Teahouse :) The bot has been stopped for the time being - so the community and J-mo can analyze it. So don't let the testing deter you. Teahouse has the capacity to wield more questions then we are getting! Danke. SarahStierch (talk) 17:31, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

benzband (talk) 18:43, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

BTW, HostBot doesn't seem to recognize {{welcome-t}} (and probably not {{welcome-anon-t}} or {{welcome-t-anon}} either) at Wikipedia:Teahouse/Hosts/Database reports. I have invited them all, yet only the standard invite ones have been logged by the bot. benzband (talk) 18:59, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Ditto benzband. I use those templates when inviting people a lot, it should be implemented. I'll ping J-Mo. --Nathan2055^{talk - contribs} 01:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I can investigate this. Point me to an example of one of your welcome-t invites that the bot didn't detect? - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 18:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

All (or most) of the ones not logged here. For example the first one: User talk:Krisskrossorganisation. benzband (talk) 18:50, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I've taken a stab at a fix. Let me know if it doesn't work. The report update script looks for any link to the Teahouse on the user's talk page, and considers the user invited if it finds one. So whatever template you use, it should be detected as long as you substitute the template, as you have been doing. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 22:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Welcome templates for IPs

So, we have {{welcome-anon-t}} which was created after I published {{welcome-t-anon}}, the current official IP welcome template for the TH. I propose we redirect the former into the later. Not to toot my own horn, but my template does use my adapted friendly language from some of the other friendly welcomes. Any thoughts? Thanks, Nathan2055^{talk - contribs} 01:38, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

If you check out the edit history you'll find that {{welcome-anon-t}} was created 2 days before {{welcome-t-anon}}. I did so after creating {{welcome-t}} (over a week before) per discussion at Template talk:Welcome. benzband (talk) 08:26, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Input requested: automatic Teahouse invitation discussion continues

The discussion on the recent Teahouse bot request has turned once again towards the distinction between welcoming new editors and inviting them to the Teahouse. Please weigh in there! - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 21:47, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Shhh!!!

Rosiestep hit 60k edits yesterday! She's an awesome host and admin, so stop by and congratulate her... ;) (And let's hope we leave her some wikilove before she reads this!! ;) SarahStierch (talk) 22:03, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Hey crew, just wanted to say thanks for the awesome wikilove, and thanks for being you, as it helps me be me, someone who loves to build the greatest encyclopedia of all time! --Rosiestep (talk) 06:05, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Arabic Wikipedia project drives up editors

See this Blog post. The Arabic Wikipedia drove up editor rates with a new pilot program m:Editor Growth and Contribution Program/Contribution portal - Phase 0. Ryan Vesey 00:35, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah! THanks for sharing this Ryan! Siko has been working on it, with Heather, too! Teahouse FTW! SarahStierch (talk) 00:38, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you know if there is a similar plan for English Wikipedia? Ryan Vesey 00:40, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

WOOO! Nice to see results like this. Haitham, Heather and Siko are awesome - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 02:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Host lounge content: your input is needed!!

Hi everyone. It'd be awesome if you would participate in examining the content in the host lounge! I have created a page on meta. The main page talks about the pros and cons of each section in the host lounge, and the talk page is where you can share your thoughts and feelings. PLEASE participate. Your guidance is important in knowing what is a success, failure, useful, useless, etc. Click here! Thank you. SarahStierch (talk) 20:41, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Done. dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 00:40, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Me, too. --Rosiestep (talk) 02:49, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Me, three Worm^TT(talk) 07:49, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

In progress I had a look through the information/proposals last week, and hope to find time to comment before the end of this week.Sorry - too much stuff going on IRL to get to this after all.

-- Trevj (talk) 07:58, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

That was fun, now when do we get some...you know...TEA? hajat vrc @ 10:08, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks everyone for helping out. Ok, I have added three more sections to the bottom of the page, which you can see here. This is more about the general layout of the main host lounge page, and some other tools you might or might not use. I'll be pinging with more things in the near future :) Danke. SarahStierch (talk) 17:57, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Hey, something I've wanted to note was that having Wikipedia talk:Teahouse and this page is kind of redundant. What about turning that page into a redirect to the Q+A page? --Nathan2055^{talk - contribs} 17:05, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I kind of like having two pages. Most talk pages under Teahouse/ redirect to Teahouse_talk. So it tends to be more guest-facing: we even get questions posted there on a fairly regular basis. This page is more for project member coordination & communication. Many other WikiProjects also have multiple, specialized discussion spaces. - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 21:21, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

I started to re-vamp on the Host Lounge today, in response to everyone's input. The user requirements and rationale for the changes are here. What do y'all think? - J-Mo ^{Talk to Me} _{Email Me} 22:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Teahouse mascot?

Hey, all, so I found this picture in some of FisherQueen's friendlier versions of block messages, and I vote that we make it the Teahouse mascot. It's one of the cutest things I've ever seen. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 00:26, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what a fish has to do with tea. Unless it's perhaps a koi out front of a Japanese Teahouse :) Don't get me wrong, that's a cute cartoon but... SarahStierch (talk) 01:12, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

No, I know. I wasn't really serious. Just, seeing it used in a "user-friendly" template got me to thinkin'. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 01:24, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I dunno, I actually sort of like it. I could imagine using the fish to tell people how to get around the Teahouse. As in, "Hi! Welcome to the Q&A page! Here, Teahouse hosts can answer all of your questions. Get started by clicking the button to my right." Ryan Vesey 01:27, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I like the idea of a cute mascot, but I think its relationship should be closer to the concept of a Teahouse... maybe a cute teaspoon, or even a coffee bean, or teaspoons avatars, or teacups, or teapots? Just brewing up some ideas here. :) Rosiestep (talk) 01:44, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

A coffee bean? Blasphemy! dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 07:52, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Weren't there animated treaspoons in The Sword in the Stone (film)? NtheP (talk) 08:13, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

It could be swimming in a teacup/pot. benzband (talk) 09:57, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

No! Wow. Ok. This is getting out of control. How about a psychic woman who reads tea leaves? Or a tea leaf farmer from China? Or perhaps..omg, do you think the 2008 Olympics would give us this mascot? OMG PANDA TEA LEAVES OMG ACK!! Sorry cuteness overload... SarahStierch (talk) 17:04, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

~~Do you mean… Panda tea?? benzband (talk) 18:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)~~

OMG I mean really: http://www.flickr.com/photos/sarahvain/7747726404/in/photostream - and don't mock my photoshop skills!! Now if only we could find away to create something that cute without epic copyright violation or intellectual property drama llamas. SarahStierch (talk) 17:51, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

So possibly something cute and furry but tea-related? Sounds like I need to go and get a picture of the yeti that stalks the upper reaches of Nidderdale where the secret tea plantations of Yorkshire Tea are. NtheP (talk) 18:10, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Monkeys? According to History_of_tea#China, there is a chinese legend in which monkeys pick tea. benzband (talk) 18:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I do like that monkey! Now we just need it with a cup of tea :) SarahStierch (talk) 19:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Make it panda tea. (he he…) benzband (talk) 19:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Much preferrable to Civet coffee.--Charles (talk) 21:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Civets would be cool mascots for a coffee-house though. Wouldn't?

benzband (talk) 21:21, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not a monkey person. I think we should combine

with

so that it looks like the panda is going to drink the tea. Brambleberry ^{☾of RC☽} 20:58, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

RfC to get Teahouse on welcome templates

See here: Wikipedia_talk:Teahouse#Welcome_template_discussion SarahStierch (talk) 23:59, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Experimenting with New Page Curation

Hi everyone. We are going to do an experiment with the team behind the Page Curation tool. This will involve placing an "if you need help" type of link in the templates used in two places in the new pages curation process:

When an article is given maintenance tags a template is placed on the article creators page stating that it was reviewed and there were some problems. A link to the Teahouse will be placed here.
When an article is approved as being a-okay (no tags added) and it's marked reviewed, the page creator gets a template saying their article looks good, but, if they need any help with Wikipedia, stop by the Teahouse.

Editors will not get a link to the Teahouse if their article is nominated for deletion. We are going to monitor how this goes - it could be inviting around 70-80 folks a day to the Teahouse. A few things to keep your eyes out for: how many visits are we getting from it and what types of questions (i.e. are they the right kinds for us, or are we going to get flooded with a million AfC type questions we all know and love ;). Looking forward to seeing what happens! (and try out the new curation tool if you get a chance!). SarahStierch (talk) 22:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks Sarah (and Oliver)! This is very cool :) heather walls (talk) 22:16, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Will this just be for editors with less than x number of edits? What happens if someone writes in a comment? Does this override the Teahouse link? Ryan Vesey 22:43, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Ryan. This will go out to all editors. The invitation won't specifically state "hey new editor," it encourages anyone to visit the Teahouse who needs help. And that is fine, actually. While we are geared to attract and retain new editors, we welcome questions from anyone. If someone writes a comment, I believe it just gets added into the template (that's what has been going on afterall - you get a generic template with a comment mixed in). When you ask about overriding the Teahouse link, what link do you mean? (I'm also pinging Oliver so he can weigh in, too). SarahStierch (talk) 23:15, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

What Sarah said :). I'd say that generally if there is a very experienced editor who is being warned for creating stuff with no references, or categories, or whatever, they're either aware of the problems and unwilling to change (in which case they're not going to head to the teahouse) or they're great editors who are new at directly creating articles, in which case any help we can give is grand :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:40, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not particularly sure I like that. Why should an editor like Malleus (picked because he is not autopatrolled) get a message including a link to the Teahouse every time he creates a new article. In addition User:WR227 is currently creating many articles a day, will he receive a notice every time? Ryan Vesey 04:12, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Maybe I'm wrong, and I'm too lazy and uncaring to look it up because Wikipedia documentation is painful - but, don't most people who edit a lot gain the rights to not have their articles reviewed? Like, Malleus, and me, for example? Or...maybe I am wrong. I was always told my articles don't go to new page patrol because I've written enough content... SarahStierch (talk) 05:27, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Malleus specifically refuses to become autopatrolled. WR227 would be autopatrolled, but has one problem he has to clear up before he can be given it. Dr. Blofeld lost his autopatrolled flag for about 30 seconds the other day, had that not been reinstated, he'd be getting more messages than many people have edits. Ryan Vesey 05:30, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, three out of 80 ain't bad ;) Seriously, if we see this experiment is causing an uproar with the community and they're getting mad about being invited to receive help then we'll come to that. It hasn't even started yet, so, let's just see what happens. SarahStierch (talk) 05:46, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm going to agree with Ryan that it should only be for editors under a certain amount of edits. I'm guessing 500 is too high, so probably either under 250 or under 100. And it should only be for the first article. ^{Brambleberry of RiverClan}_meow 21:31, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Build a host profile in our new fancy new host creation system!

Hi everyone - please take some time to create your "new" host profile - this is a chance for us to test drive the new host creation process. Instead of forcing hosts to read the painful and unenjoyable WP:Teahouse/Your hosts page they can just click on the "become a host!" link and voila, fill out the documentation and be sent to the new host lounge (which is still under construction). So please:

Visit this page Wikipedia:Teahouse/Hosts_temp and click on the "become a host!" link
Follow the process
If you have problems or concerns let us know here.
No problems or concern? Shower Heather with praise and wikilove.

Thanks! SarahStierch (talk) 06:08, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Looks and works great! -- Cheers, Riley Huntley _talk No talkback needed; I'll temporarily watch here. 06:29, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

It took me a while to figure out i was supposed to click on the little userbox. But once i did, everything worked fine! benzband (talk) 09:34, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

PS. there are some editors waiting to become hosts here, some since July.

I'm a little confused why we need this - does the current method of becoming a host though approval become obsolete, and if so, why? This method enables anyone to add themselves to the host listing and also opens it up to vandalism (okay, even the current method is open to vandalism, but doesn't provide an obvious 'Click here to add yourself' button). Don't get me wrong, it's a good idea - but perhaps it should be applied to the current method rather than changing it. It also reduces the 'value' of being a host - imagine opening the admin tools up to the public. Just my 2 cents. Osarius - Want a chat? 10:40, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I think its good that approval isn't needed. It prevents bureaucracy and opens the Teahouse to anyone willing to help; if there are issues with some hosts, we can deal with them as they arise. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 11:51, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Simple process! --Rosiestep (talk) 13:41, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. For the past six months it's been ME who has been "approving" people to be hosts. It's time consuming and time wasting for me, especially when I have other things I need to do for my fellowship and for my volunteering work (and as a Host I'd rather be answering questions and inviting people right now). :) So, this allows me to not have to deal with it - I can also delete (yay!) that really ugly Your host page that I worked way too hard to create, and now people won't have to wait to be hosts. You can read all about it here. OK, I'm on vacation for the next few days...so I'm outta here. Siko, Heather and J-mo can answer any other questions that the other hosts can't! Glad it's working well so far. SarahStierch (talk) 16:19, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

This is good stuff, and reflects the Wikipedia ethos better, which is that no one should be prevented from helping anywhere they think the can, unless they show themselves incapable of doing so. We shouldn't need an approval process for this. Gudonya. --Jayron32 18:37, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Wait, I'm confused, do current hosts have to do it as well? ^{Brambleberry of RiverClan}_meow 18:00, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Aye. benzband (talk) 18:05, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's for everyone (current hosts, too) because we (J-Mo, really) are developing some new automated systems so we need the host profiles to have some additional parts. You are free to copy your existing introduction exactly as it is. This is also a test of a new way to deal with host creation, make it more fluid, informative and self-directed. As ItsZippy says, the existing hosts will be able to deal with any issues, and we can revisit everything if major problems arise. Thanks for your patience as we didn't explain things in depth. heather walls (talk) 18:21, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I understand now and I created the new intro. Thank you for explaining. ^{Brambleberry of RiverClan}_meow 18:27, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh! And I was hoping you could test it out a little, as Sarah mentioned, let us know how it works for you. If you have any suggestions for information that would be important in this "host initializing" process I would love to hear it. Part of our intention in this solution is to verify that editors think they are ready to host and give them some of the key pieces of information, while moving away from bureaucracy and hand-holding (in the sense of explaining the Teahouse). :) heather walls (talk) 18:31, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

It worked pretty well, but I think that "quotee" should be part of the basic format as well. ^{Brambleberry of RiverClan}_meow 18:47, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean, Brambleberry, would you mind explaining a little? Thanks! heather walls (talk) 19:01, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, when it has the basic format, it has "descripton", "quote", and "image", but after quote there should be "quotee", which lets you say who came up with the quote in the first place. It's something that most hosts put in, so I think it should be part of the basic format. ^{Brambleberry of RiverClan}_meow 19:02, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Oh! Okay, I'll add that, good idea. :) heather walls (talk) 19:04, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Done

One more thing, feel free to change your "joined" date to the date you originally became a host. heather walls (talk) 21:32, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Promising to remain in "good standing" is rather difficult, given some of the antics that go on here. Rich Farmbrough, 17:30, 25 August 2012 (UTC).

Heh, Rich. :) It's more a token of the understanding that other hosts may ask you to step away for a bit if you've found yourself in a giant kerfuffle. Good faith. heather walls (talk) 23:16, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Looks great! I'll try to get a profile up by the end of the week. Lord Roem (talk) 13:38, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Merging of old and new host process is happening now

Hi everyone. Heather and I are in the process of merging the WP:Teahouse/Hosts and the Wikipedia:Teahouse/Hosts temp pages together. Therefore, our new host creation system will be implemented and the WP:Teahouse/Your hosts page will be redirected also to the new WP:Teahouse/Hosts page. So a few things:

If you haven't created your new profile, make sure you do. Even if you won't be that active, that's okay - I even encourage previous and founding project hosts to sign up again - this is because of the new process we have that will support hosts of all activity levels still being a part of the project.
Keep your eyes peeled for new hosts signing up. Greet them, welcome them, and of course support them by being the best hosts possible by leading by example.

Thanks, SarahStierch (talk) 18:13, 29 August 2012 (UTC) ...and Done SarahStierch (talk) 18:32, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Scripts page

Hi everyone. I have tweaked a bit of the user scripts page and tried to clean it up a bit layout wise. I'm sort of at a loss on how to redesign it, but, I encourage ya'll, of course, to be bold! While installing scripts isn't necessarily easy, I do wonder if there is a way to make the "how to install a user script" section a bit easier. (Perhaps "Step 1") - the less words the better :) So please go for it! I'm done messing with that page :) SarahStierch (talk) 21:01, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

What would you think of removing the how to install a user script section entirely? Instead, after each script it would include this:

"Copy the text in the box below and paste it into Special:MyPage/common.js (or Special:MyPage/common.css depending on the script) then refresh your page.

importScript("User:Writ Keeper/Scripts/teahouseUtility.js"); // Gives one-click option to add Teahouse invitation or talkback to a user

I think that would be easier because all that is necessary is copy and paste. Ryan Vesey 21:14, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Sounds good to me! The easier and less words the better. Do keep the "need help" section, though. SarahStierch (talk) 21:49, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Nice job!

A big pat on the back to everyone for their work on the new host lounge and host system. It looks great! Keep up the good work everyone! --Nathan2055^{talk - contribs} 14:33, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Teahouse Talkback

Hi everyone. I did a recent analysis of the past three weeks of questions on the Teahouse Q&A. The biggest issue:

Hosts are not using the Teahouse talkback template every time they answer a question. This it pertinent to informing guests that their questions have been answered - most new editors have no clue that they should add something to their watchlist, and if we don't inform people that they have a response, they might not come back. The goal is to not only answer their question, but encourage them to continue inquiring more if needed - so we need to be using this. The host lounge is still going through renovations, but we need to figure out a way to inform hosts and even non-hosts about this talkback template. You can see the talkback template here, and there is a script where you can have the TB button added to the Q&A lounge.

It'd be great if folks here could help figure out a way to make this more visible or the process easier. Thoughts? SarahStierch (talk) 18:30, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Make my annoying reminder script a default gadget? ;) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Go for it! SarahStierch (talk) 18:42, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Nah, too annoying. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:43, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

In seriousness though, we'd need to get some kind of significant consensus for a gadget that alerts you whenever you try to save a page, even if it is opt-out. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:44, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

When people add themselves as hosts, could we leave a note informing them of the reminder script and the talkback script? On another note, Writ Keeper, can you make something like this change to the talkback script? It allows autofill among other nice things. Ryan Vesey 18:48, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes! I think we should add that to the "host creation" process, a note with reminders sent to their talk page, as-well-as directing them to the lounge from the host landing page. If we could find a way to send a note regarding talkback when someone answers a question on the Q&A for the first time... so many dreams, so little dev. heather walls (talk) 18:57, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Toctext? I didn't even think of that! Chico's a clever guy. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 18:52, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I added an additional response to a question moments after another host had posted a response. The host who originally responded left a talkback template on the user talk page. Should I still add the Teahouse Talkback template to the user talk page? Ebikeguy (talk) 19:08, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I usually just write "I replied too" underneath the template that's already there. If the asker has already replied, then I'd put a new talkback. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:12, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I generally haven't left anything if the asker hasn't replied again. Ryan Vesey 19:16, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I've been thinkin' on different ways to make our host tools more broadly available, to encourage their use by hosts and friendly passers-by. With this in mind, I'd like your help testing something out: I just added an 'install' link next to Writ Keeper's talkback links userscript in the Host tools section of the Host Lounge. Using this method you can install the TB script, and (I think) pretty much any other script, in your common.js page with only two clicks.

You could actually install multiple scripts this way: in fact, we could bundle all of our helper scripts together under a single link, or a shiny button called 'install Teahouse tools' or something, and put it on the Q&A page. Could a couple folks try this out and tell me if it breaks anything? Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 03:57, 3 September 2012 (UTC) (J-Mo in light disguise)

Is there a way to add it without creating a new section? If you don't add a section header you can't have an edit summary, if you have a section header I don't believe the js will work. Ryan Vesey 04:05, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't think so. The hack hinges on adding a new section to the bottom of a page... Jmorgan (WMF) (talk) 06:39, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Installing Teahouse scripts made easier!

Hi all! We've added two buttons to the host lounge, currently under "Tools for hosts", that let you add the fabulous Teahouse user scripts made by brilliant Wikipedians! (In an easy 2-click process, I hope.) Try it out if you haven't installed the scripts before, let me know how it goes. There are a couple you really should have if you don't already, they make being a host a lot easier. Regards, heather walls (talk) 22:37, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

YES. Now no host has an excuse not to have these scripts installed :) SarahStierch (talk) 22:49, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I am the biggest script dummy on the planet, but I installed them and it looks like they are pretty easy to use. Thanks! Ebikeguy (talk) 22:54, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I think they're fantastic! --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:00, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Hehehe, I think I'm the anti-script-dummy, I've installed scripts by hand even after they've been given buttons in the user preferences. >_> dalahäst ^{(let's talk!)} 01:32, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Wow. Can we do that on like, all of Wikipedia? Because I have been here since 2006, and those were literally the first scripts I ever installed. Thanks! --Jayron32 01:56, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I've had these tools for a while, and I'm glad they are more visible. As said before, no more excuses! I, Jethrobot ^{drop me a line} (note: not a bot!) 02:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

OK. I clicked the "TB" link like I was supposed to, and filled out the little box. It said that it posted the talkback, but it looks like nothing happened. Can someone explain why? --Jayron32 02:49, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Hm, not sure. Works for me. Which link did you click on (as in, to whose talk page, and where in the THQ page was it)? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 03:29, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Looks like the script posted them to Ttp://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions. God knows why. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 03:32, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm as technical as a stale can of beer. So I have no idea what is going wrong. And I was so looking forward to using this. --Jayron32 03:48, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Do you want to get into the Teahouse IRC channel? Might be easier to coordinate efforts. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 03:56, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) OK. I switched browsers from IE to Chrome, and the script works in Chrome. No idea what I need to do to IE to make it work there. I'm using IE version 9.0.8112.16421 on Windows 7. If someone can figger out what switch I need to flip to make the script not do what it does in IE, feel free to let me know. --Jayron32 03:57, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Regarding IRC: Maybe we can do something else. I haven't used IRC since my computer shit itself a few years back, I never installed IRC on this machine. If you send me an email, I'll send you back my facebook info, and we can use the chat function there if need be. --Jayron32 03:59, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

My standard reaction to that is generally to use Chrome. :P It doesn't surprise me at all that IE is causing that; I was actually about to ask you if you were using IE. Lemme fiddle with it. Don't worry about IRC now; IE is all I needed to know. (Though I think you can just use the webchat; you don't have to install anything, just go here. Should work as long as you have Java.) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 04:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not a tech snob. I use the stuff that came free on my computer because it came free on my computer. Sorry about that. --Jayron32 04:02, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh, no, don't mistake me for a tech snob either; I just use what works, especially when it comes to free stuff. It's just that IE has concrete problems with it (like this) that Firefox/Chrome don't have, and both alternatives are also free. :) Anyway, I looked through IE, and I can't find anything that looks like the problem. Sorry. I'll keep looking and let you know. Since you already have Chrome, though, I'd recommend you just make the switch; you won't regret it. :) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 04:33, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, but breaking up is hard to do. You know, joint checking accounts, and all my shit needs to get moved out of the house. Sure, it's an abusive relationship, and this Chrome chick sounds like a great gal, but I've got stuff crammed into every closet around here. Probably too much of a hassle. --Jayron32 05:09, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

You could use Firefox! The choice is yours, but if ever you decide to change there are ways of importing bookmarks and stuff from a different browser, or storing them on an online account for use on multiple computers (same for Google). benzband (talk) 15:03, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, my workaround is to open Chrome when I need to leave the talkback message. I have the Chrome homepage set to the Teahouse Questions page. It takes about 3 clicks to do it. Open chrome, click, click, close chrome. Which is fine for now. It would be nice to see this fixed for IE; millions of people probably use IE regularly, and any piece of software that ignores IE entirely seems like a bad idea, regardless of the prejudices (justified as they may be over the quality of IE) of the programmer. Still, I've got this worked out for me for now. --Jayron32 15:06, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

It's not as easy as overcoming prejudices; the problem is that there are web applications that need to be built one way for IE and a completely different way for non-IE browsers, because they behave so differently. I mean, it's job security for me, I suppose, but it's not a fun thing to deal with. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 15:54, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

I think, while it is fair to wish for a world where it wasn't so, it also isn't fair to act as though we lived in that world. That is, there are a vast number of people who use IE because that's the default browser that came with their computer. Yes, the fact that IE is a piece of shit software that doesn't play well with others is well documented. But it isn't those people's fault, and it also isn't productive to demand from everyone of them to stop using IE. Would the world be a better place if it were not so? Yes. But that isn't helpful on the small scale, when dealing with individual problems. This is not an indictment of you directly. I genuinely appreciate the help you've given in trying to solve this, and I am much obliged to people like you who have skills that I will never have. But in general, there is a divide between people who know what they are doing with computers to the level that they care about what browser they use, and then the vast majority of people that do not, because they don't see or understand the differences you do. It's a shitty reality that we live in, but it doesn't stop being the reality merely because it is shitty. --Jayron32 19:08, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

No, I totally agree. It's not the end user's problem to worry about cross-browser compatibility, it's the developer's, of both the browsers themselves and the webapps that use the browsers. I wasn't trying to guilt you into switching off of IE. I'm just trying to illustrate that it's not an easy thing to do; when design choices are made that exclude a certain browser, it's (usually) not because the developers are being lazy and just giving a big "fuck you" to all the users of that browser. It's not like we have a choice of "oh, we could make this compatible with IE, but nah." It's not just some switch that was left unflipped. It's because the dynamic of how things behave between browsers is very complex and non-straightforward, and there are pieces that straight-up just do different things in browsers, and it's never well-documented. I assure you, if I knew that there would be an issue with my script in IE, I would've fixed it (or at least tried to). But it's not that simple; I had no idea IE would have a problem with it, and no real reason to think that IE would have a problem. That's all I was trying to say; it's your choice as a user to use a certain browser; it's not my choice as a developer to dictate to you what browser you should use.

And by the way, the gap between "tech-savvy" people and non-tech-savvy people has always been something that I've tried very hard to keep in mind. It's actually why I became interested in the Teahouse in the first place. It's the reason that I use the two quotes that I use, one on my user page and one on my Teahouse host page:

How can a man who is warm understand a man who is cold?
— Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, One Day in the Life of Ivan Denisovich

I think it's time for us to recognize the differences we sometimes fear to show.
— Rush, Entre Nous

I may not do such a great job of it all the time, but I try my best. :) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 19:36, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, excellent stuff. I am glad that you understood that I as well wasn't trying to critisize you, but was speaking in big philosophical terms. I'm a teacher by trade, and I teach a subject which is very technically dense (chemistry), and as such, I am very sensitive towards understanding the perspective of people who don't know literally anything about a topic, and trying to understand how those people think and view the world. That is the most important thing any teacher can do, because it is a teacher's job to bridge that gap. If a teacher does not first what it is truly like to not know something, they have failed before they have even started. I also work as a tutor, so I see where it goes fantastically wrong, where people who are really well knowledged in an area forget what it is like to be really stupid in that area. Again, we're just chatting big picture philosophy here, and not about the specific problem, but surely as someone in the tech field you recognize these same problems, n'est ce pas? --Jayron32 19:43, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

Very much so. It's a challenge to remember what it was like at the beginning sometimes, and the parallel one can draw between that and the learning curve for Wikipedia editing is what drew me to the Teahouse. Anyway, although I do love to expound on philosophical tangents 'til the cows come home, the specific problem remains unsolved. I've been unable to recreate the issue in my version of IE9, and without being able to reproduce it, I'm not sure I'm going to be able to fix it. It kinda sucks that you're an admin, to be honest; if you weren't one, we could just create-protect the page and then keep testing the script without having to worry about creating nonsense pages in mainspace. I'll keep trying Google, see what I can find there. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 20:10, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

If you want, I can create a throwaway non-admin account, and we can stress test it that way. It wouldn't be too hard. Which would be a bit weird, I've always taken it as a matter of pride that I have only ever had one account, but then again it is a silly thing to be worried about. If doing so would help you as a dev in fixing the problem, I can do that. --Jayron32 20:24, 7 September 2012 (UTC)