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Rotating banners

I've made a small change the the Q&A page template. The banner at the top of the board (which formerly held a survey solicitation, and before that an advert for the badge pilot) now pulls from a rotating gallery of banners. This will allow us to display several different banners at once, just like we rotate through recent questions and featured hosts and guests on the main page. In terms of other banners we could include... I was wondering what people thought about putting a banner up for Today's article for improvement? It would be kind of neat to make new editors aware of that project in the Teahouse space. Thoughts on that? Other suggestions? - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 02:17, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

  • Support the choice of having multiple rotating banners. It would be fun to surprise the guests! Also, Strongly support any banner for TAFI. The project will certainly benefit greatly from this advertisment. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 13:18, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Possible TAFI banner - How does it look? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 14:20, 17 April 2013 (UTC) User:TheOriginalSoni/TAFI ad box User:TheOriginalSoni/TAFI ad box unbordered

That looks good. The banner as designed already has a border so that is not necessary. Please also keep it to a single line of text. Banners are intended to give hints to other things, not detract from the main navigation and messages, so it can be tricky :) heather walls (talk) 14:51, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
What template was that? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 22:31, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
It's not allowed to be a template right now. Some day when I have some more article space edits under my belt, I'll recreate it as a userspace template of mine. ;) Technical 13 (talk) 22:51, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
Is there any correlation between your article space edits and your recreation of this template? If not, I request you to make that template now, before I start stealing it! TheOriginalSoni (talk) 23:01, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
There is no correlation what-so-ever... I'll put the template at User:Technical_13/Templates/SS Note, it must be substituted. Technical 13 (talk) 00:15, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Soni: I've added your template to a new page in the banner gallery and have the banner rotation functioning in a sandbox (add ?action=purge to the end of the URL to see the banners rotate). Before we make it live on Template:TH-question-page, could you make a small change? Heather has requested that the banner be brief (one line is ideal). Could you perhaps make the descriptions for each TAFI article somewhat shorter? For example, Please help Wikipedia by improving Today's Article for Improvement - Wonders of the World. - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 23:57, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

I personally prefer this two line version because it manages to catch the attention of the reader, which is primarily what TAFI wants. Many articles, especially the vital ones are topic known to us, and yet we do not recognize some of them by their titles. I think the 2nd line does well in getting that part of attention from the reader.
If you can find a compromise that does not remove the 2nd line, please do so. Feel free to make any changes you feel necessary for bringing this gallery, but I would very much prefer for the 2nd line to still stay. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 02:33, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
I'd still prefer a single-line banner. If we can establish that as a precedent, it will help keep future banners to a manageable length. The primary purpose of the Q&A board is Q&A, and our 'ads' shouldn't distract readers from that purpose. Anyone else have an opinion? - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 19:46, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
I do. I think it looks better as a two-liner. It's not distracting at all, and to be honest I think one line is just not enough to catch peoples eyes. I personally would overlook a one-liner. Technical 13 (talk) 21:08, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree with J-Mo. Catching eyes=distracting, and that is not what we want to be doing when we are trying to lead new people to the basic workings of the Teahouse. (The current one with the survey link will go away shortly.) This is an extra area for suggestions, but if it gets too eye-catching I might even vote to remove it. heather walls (talk) 16:43, 21 April 2013 (UTC)

J-Mo, I believe the final call is yours. Technical13 and I prefer the 2-line version, but I am fine with a single line version or a compromise between the two. Whicheever one you choose, I'll prefer to have it up at the earliest. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 10:39, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

My point about it catching my eye wasn't that it was distracting at all, but that if it doesn't catch some eyes to read it, what is the point of having it? You can't lead people to the basic workings of the Teahouse with a one-liner that isn't eye catching enough to read. Yes, Soni is right, the decision is ultimately yours J-Mo. Technical 13 (talk) 12:40, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Alright, I've activated the banner and Soni is shortening the prose. If clear consensus evolves around a 2-line banner, we can change it later. Thanks y'all. - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 17:38, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
A one line version of the template failed. I'll work on it tomorrow. For now, a 2 line functional version is running. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 18:22, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Finally figured it out and it's now implemented as a one-liner. Soni: Instead of mucking with the formatting of your original list (which other pages were using), I made your template pull from an altered version in my own sandbox. Cheers - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 22:50, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
That was always an option. But this requires manually changing the list for every week not in the list. Which is why i did not prefer that. Its functional now anyways, and that is all that is all that matters. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 23:23, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Hey...I am back!

Hi. I am back and will start helping on the questions page in the next day or so. Can I get out of this breakroom? My butt is getting tired and I am getting a rumbly tummy from the rotten coffee here...lol. I am anxious to get back to work! Gtwfan52 (talk) 04:53, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

<3 welcome back :) SarahStierch (talk) 05:14, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Hurray! heather walls (talk) 05:16, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Our leeeettle robot friend should be on this already, but I'll make sure it happens mañana if not. Welcome back! - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 02:07, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
TY all. It is good to be back. Been helping out quietly off the forum for a few days giving out invites and such, but as soon as I catch a question I can handle, I'll be back helping out with answers! Gtwfan52 (talk) 02:34, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

HostBot Messages and notifications

So, the new notifications feature is out, and I was surprised to notice that I had 15 notifications. I received them all because HostBot is mentioning my name in its messages. At first I thought "Oh great, I'm going to need to deal with all of these pointless notifications every day" but on second thought, I realized that it would probably be a good idea to watchlist those pages. I've never even thought of it, but I wouldn't be surprised if a number of people reply to those messages only to be ignored by me even though I never realized I left the message. On that note, I'm curious as to whether a java script genius (*cough* User:Writ Keeper) knows a way that I can add all of these to my watchlist easily. WK, if that can't be done easily, it's no bother, I'll probably drop by VPT once my finals are done All of this being said, how many people are named in the host bot messages? Has anybody been added since we started them a few months ago? If not, I think it would be great if we could get some more hosts to volunteer to be named in the messages. 15 watchlisted pages a day is a lot. Ryan Vesey 01:34, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, that might not be too hard. Lemme see what I can come up with. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 01:51, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Yeah, I just saw the same thing when I logged on just now, first time post-rollout. The future is now! ;) The list of hosts who are on invites is recorded here here, but I manually add these names to the script when someone asks me to be included. A few people have asked to be added recently; not many. I'm happy to add anyone who wants it... but I actually think I'm going to temporarily remove all names starting tomorrow, since I'm sure not everyone on the list wants these alerts clogging their feed. Unless someone knows a way I can wrap a userlink so it doesn't ring the Echo bell 15 times a day (HostBot sends out ~100 invites per diem)? On the plus side, it's nice to know I can now summon User:Writ Keeper, User:Ironholds, User:Ocaasi, and User:Heatherawalls with a few lazy keystrokes. ;P - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 01:55, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
...dick. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 01:56, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
What I did was go to Preferences - Notifications and remove my check from "Whenever anyone mentions your name". But yes, it would be better if there was a way to say the name of User:Writ Keeper with just a few keystrokes ;) On further thought though, I am re-enabling the feature personally for me. 15 per day doesnt seem that huge. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 03:33, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
This is a test edit for TheOriginalSoni. Huon (talk) 03:40, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
This too is a test edit for TheOriginalSoni Ignatzmice•talk 03:41, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
And yet another test for TheOriginalSoni. Huon (talk) 03:42, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
  • Solved the problem, J-Mo. I asked a couple editors to make the tests you see above, and it turned out that I only get the notification when someone links my userpage, NOT when they link my talk page. So Writ Keeper doesnt call me a dick when I link his name. (Atleast for this message. No comments on the above.) But Ryan raised an interesting concern here, and I think we can keep track of the editors who would like to recieve the notifications, and use their user name and not the talk page link. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 03:47, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Also I'm tempted to carry out further tests, but lets just leave it at that for now. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 03:47, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Nope, got a notification. (Dick.) Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 04:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
But speaking of linking to weird pages, we could just set up redirects to a user's pages and have hostbot link those. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 04:04, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Wait what? I linked to your name above. So I think you got the above notification, and not the below one. Writ Keeper. Do you get another one? TheOriginalSoni (talk) 04:12, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
  • I have a proposal. Oh god, another one? I think it would reduce the number of notifications each individual member got if HostBot had a wider range of names to use. What if HostBot was configured to send out messages and picks a random name from the list of active hosts (the same list used for the featured host in the banner at the top of WP:THQ)? Of course, those not wanting to participate could opt-out by adding a new parameter to the Wikipedia:Teahouse/Host template like |autoinvite=no or something. What do you guys think of that idea? I think it would likely reduce your 15-20 notifications a day down to 3-5. Oh, and either way, you can add my name to the list J-Mo. Technical 13 (talk) 13:02, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Sure thing, Technical 13; I'll add you today. I think your proposal is a good one. It could potentially engage more hosts in direct outreach to newcomers in need, expanding the range of services that we provide. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like I'll have time to do any active HostBot development until after July, when I've (gods willing) finished up my diss. So for now I'll see your proposal and raise you a couple more:
  • I'll update the invite script to link to the hosts' talk pages today, before the next round of invites are sent out. This will let us confirm once and for all whether UT links ring Echo.
  • please record your idea on the Wish List. If you'd like, you can also create a Wish List subpage with a more detailed specification of the proposed feature. Laying out some initial considerations now while the idea is fresh in mind will help us pick up the thread when I/we/somebody takes up development. Plus, it's just plain good process :)
  • If someone wants to work on this before August, I'm happy (eager even) to orient them with the HostBot codebase and support development and testing of new HostBot functionality. But the person (or one of the people) who take on this task will need a working knowledge of Python and the MediaWiki API, and probably MySQL as well since a lot of the HostBot code is database-driven (tho it doesn't all necessarily have to be).
What do you(all) say? - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 19:35, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
I say that the hosts who opt for having the username used could have that. It could be a good opportunity for me to check out the daily notifications email. So put me in the list of those with usernames and not talk. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 19:41, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Your link to my user page (not talk) rang my echo... Yes, I'll add this idea to the wishlist as well. Technical 13 (talk) 19:47, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Hey all, I'm starting a new section because that one is getting hard to navigate. I made some changes to Nerdfighter's changes which probably broke Technical 13's script. Basically there is a span style in the arrow template which messed up the /span order. Feel free to fix it for your purposes, just be careful of that. :) heather walls (talk) 21:14, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

It did break my script, but has already been fixed back up. I'm still working on user customization, but that is likely going to be a ways away. The script currently replaces "Teahouse_Guest.." with your username|TH and turns off the prompt for room and username. I'd be happy to field request to make it as useful for everyone as possible while I work on the per user customization. Should I have it add #wikipedia-teahouse as a room for those of us using the script? Technical 13 (talk) 21:24, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Sorry, I'm bad with HTML :) For you HTML savvy people, how can one make the link have an underline under it when someone hovers over it? I just think it would look better. Not a big deal though nerdfighter 17:00, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
I don't think we can Nf... Unfortunately, I think that has to be defined in an external stylesheet, ie common.css and it would look like a:hover { text-decoration: underline; }. It can also be done with JavaScript or jquery to change the style of the link after it loads, but that would only work for people that are loading a javascript. Would you like me to add it to the User:Technical 13/Scripts/Teahouse IRC.js I've been working on for us hosts? Technical 13 (talk) 17:19, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Nah, I just think that guests are used to links with underlines underneath when hovered over. nerdfighter 17:24, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
Could we use {{Plain link}} to make it have an underline? nerdfighter 17:30, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
It won't work since the {{Plain link}} is the same as <span class="plainlinks">[ url ]</span> which is already been used at the chat link --Ushau97 (talk) 17:45, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikimania Submission

Hey hosts. If you're interested in Wikimania 2013 in Hong Kong, a group of us are doing an awesome presentation/panel on Wikipedia spaces like the Teahouse and the upcoming Wikipedia Adventure game. These are fun, useful, supportive, social, engaging areas which are markedly different in tone from the rest of Wikipedia. If you're curious or would like to attend, please show your support by signing your name as an interested attendee. Hope to see you there!

Fun user experience is srs bznss and so can you

15:23, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

What happened to the section edit links?

What happened to those "answer this question" (or something like that; I can't remember exactly) links that used to be next to the headers on the questions page? Did the Wikimedia's recent changes break them, or were they removed for some reason? Chamal T•C 14:14, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Wikimedia's recent changes broke them, of course... Technical 13 (talk) 14:58, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
Hmm... and then we get this. Chamal T•C 03:54, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Ick... Section editing isn't on by default? User:Writ Keeper, User:Ocaasi, User:Heatherawalls, User:Jtmorgan, I'm thinking that getting that link back up there is a priority. I just tested the work around for the section edit links (span.mw-editsection { float:right; }) an it doesn't put the links back. The current code for level two headings looks like:
<h2><span class="mw-headline" id="This_Pagname">This Pagname</span> <span class="mw-editsection">[<a href="/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions&amp;action=edit&amp;section=7" title="Edit section: Edit link">edit</a>]</span></h2>
The current Teahouse gadget that puts the respond link up looks for .editsection with if i am reading it correctly, this line of code:
var headers = $('h2:gt(0)').find('.editsection');

This has apparently has been renamed .mw-editsection. I also think that the script should either add float: right; to the style for the span or change $(this).prepend to $(this).append -- Can we get that fix in place? Technical 13 (talk) 13:12, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, if section editing is off by default, shouldn't the JavaScript look for and .append() to .mw-headline? Technical 13 (talk) 13:18, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Section editing is on by default. Where are you seeing it say otherwise? Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:29, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
User:Revent suggested it here. I do remember vaguely that at very least section editing can be turned off, so either way, if we want the Teahouse respond links, they should be .append() to the .mw-headline (ya never know when a newbie might turn them off right away and then have an impossible time responding on the Teahouse due to edit conflicts with people editing other sections, get frustrated and give up). Technical 13 (talk) 13:34, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
We also want it visually tied to the edit link (wherever it might travel), as they're conceptually the same thing. I'd say it's an edge case so rare as to be not worth it. Good call on the editsection class changing, though. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Actually, on looking at it, the gadget doesn't remove the edit section link; it just hides it from view, so it should still be okay to add it to the edit link. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:43, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

As long as the links are back up for the majority of people (I'm still not seeing them back, but I am using the css span.mw-editsection { float:right; } to move the edit links to the edge of the screen). We can discuss if excluding even one person from the Teahouse is acceptable or not later. Technical 13 (talk) 13:55, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

I am, too, and they're appearing again; perhaps you need to bypass your cache. As for your second sentence, I wouldn't describe it as "excluding [people] from the Teahouse" so much as "respecting their decision about section editing". Not to mention that it's not excluding them from anything; you can still edit the page the good old-fashioned way. And the script change isn't as minor as you may think; it will change the appearance of the page by decoupling the gadget button and the edit button, two things which I believe should stay together. "Minor" in the sense of "not a huge change", but not "minor" in the sense of "no difference". Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:04, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to bite my tongue, as I feel it is an exclusion of new people as was made evident to me when Child7 had to ask edit"How to post a reply?" I think that a respond to the question link should be forced on the THQ page. I'm not as concerned with people who intentionally turn off section editing because I feel that A) the JavaScript box is different enough from the full page editor that it wouldn't be overly offensive and B) more importantly, the people that accidentally turn it off likely do not know that is what they did, do not know how to find and edit "a section" of a page without something like this, don't yet understand how (edit conflict) works, and will either end up creating multiple sections for each response using the "ask a question button" or will give up and decide that editing is not worth their time. I'm hoping to hear from some other hosts and see what their thoughts are. I would be particularly interested in hearing the thoughts and opinions of User:Miss Bono on this as she is a fairly new editor herself of whom I often see asking good questions. Technical 13 (talk) 14:27, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
What? I was trying to know about what you are discussing here, but I don't get it. What do you want my opinion for? :D I will love to help ;)  Miss Bono (zootalk) 14:37, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
How do you respond to questions on the Teahouse page? Do you use the "[edit]" or the "«   Respond to this discussion" link? Technical 13 (talk) 15:24, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
I just click the Edit link of the post and respond to it. Hope it helps :D  Miss Bono (zootalk) 15:26, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
User:Miss Bono, would you know how to respond if that link disappeared? Technical 13 (talk) 15:31, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
I would click the Edit (the one for the whole page, and would look for the question I will answer)  Miss Bono (zootalk) 15:34, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm glad you know that, my last set of questions are: Would you have known how to do that six months ago? Would you have gotten frustrated if you repeatedly got (edit conflict) every time you tried to save your comment and given up trying to post it? Your answers are valuable to this discussion, and I thank you for your time to give them. Technical 13 (talk) 16:06, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
No problem, Technical13 I am glad to help. Here are my answers. I often get (edit conflict) and sometimes I get frustrated about that, but I just drink tea and prblem solved, I cut the comment, cancel the edit, click on edit again and paste the comment again and add the fout tildes. As for the question of the six month, it just take a little reading and surely I would figured it out ;)  Miss Bono (zootalk) 16:19, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Did it help???? Miss Bono (zootalk) 17:55, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
This is my opinion about that: I think the ALWAYS is always better than the IN SOME EXTREMELY RARE CASES.... just in case. ;)  Miss Bono (zootalk) 20:17, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Please don't forget to say hi - and be friendly - to even our fellow hosts

Hi everyone. I noticed that one of our hosts, Miss Bono, asked a question recently on the Teahouse and she wasn't even greeted. I know she's a host, but, as ya'll know, one of the things that makes the Teahouse so special is 1) saying hello and providing a warm welcome to all visitors (or question askers) and 2) friendly, warm, responses that are easy to understand and make people want to come back. The fact that she had to apologize for asking a question (Even if she had to provide more detail) just broke my Teahouse co-founder heart. So please remember - everyone deserves a warm welcome and response! Even our hosts who have questions (we don't know it all..ya know!). Thanks for all you do and for volunteering at the Teahouse! The work you do is proven to be important! SarahStierch (talk) 15:35, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Sarah. Miss Bono (zootalk) 14:39, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Template:Help me possible rewording

Hello hosts! In addition to being a host here, I've also been responding to {{Help me}} requests. Shameless self promo: I've even created a userbox ({{User:Technical 13/Userboxes/Help me responder}}) that informs you how many people are using the template get get assistance. Anyways, I was on the talk page today to request a new similar template be created ({{Admin help-inappropriate}}) when I noticed a couple of edit requests that had been sitting there for a couple months (there was no template to notify anyone). I decided to add my opinions and post the appropriate {{Edit protected}} template to see if the little bugs could be fixed. The requests where denied at this time, although the denying admin had missed my actual request. I asked him about it on his talk page, and he suggested, "What may be an idea is bringing the entire template up for discussion at the Teahouse, or some other venue designed around helping editors, and see if there is a more elegant rewording for the whole thing." So, here I am and my question for the hosts today is: Should the {{Help me}} template be reworded to be less wordy and to fix a typographical error? I thank you all for your time in advanced and look forward to your replies. Technical 13 (talk) 14:15, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

No opinion on the 'wordiness', but the massive run-on sentence is horrible, and the 'category this places' phrasing is useless to a newbie. "Using this template on a page places it into a special category for attention, and notifies users...." That way it doesn't 'assume knowledge'. Revent (talk) 19:17, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
My edit request was to remove the extra words, not add anything.
Changing the rest of it was Thumperward's idea. I'm just presenting it. Technical 13 (talk) 19:29, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
I originally asked this in THQ, but as you can see, I didn't get much response on it there and it got archived (#102). So, I suppose I'll bring it up here as well. I am looking for some consensus and assistance in what the rewording should be. As a side note, I've gone through all of the other templates and replaced any links that use to point to WP:NCHD to now point to WP:THQ instead or if Teahouse was already there I simply removed the links to NCHD... Technical 13 (talk) 12:59, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for all the help you offer all over! I would say you don't even need to talk about the category, it's not really relevant to the helpee. Maybe, "Helpers have been alerted and will assist you shortly." heather walls (talk) 18:25, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
Ya, I enjoy helping out where I can. I like the idea of the IRC help channel being linked. No-one is really "alerted" in anyway by the template, so I think that gives the helpee a false sense of urgency that they will receive a quick response. Technical 13 (talk) 19:34, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I couldn't tell if you were just changing those first sentences or the whole thing, but yeah, I assumed the help channel would be linked. Probably no need to call it IRC or give the channel name, just a link for chatting is clear enough, yes? heather walls (talk) 19:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

I would think so... How does the following look?

Please ask your question below this box. You may also look at the Help Contents/FAQs. As a Wikipedian looking for help, someone will be around to answer your question. For a faster reply, you may want to ask your question at the Help desk or the Teahouse and for the fastest reply, you may ask your question on the IRC channel by clicking here.

Meh... I'm not completely happy with this either, but don't have a lot of time to tweak it... Technical 13 (talk) 19:55, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Shortly is a relative term, and not necessarily true. The reference to the category reference, while maybe meaningless to the helpee requester (although not to experienced editors who use it, which I have seen) does explain that it isn't just the IRC folks that may respond. --kelapstick(bainuu) 12:11, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Adventure (Feedback welcome and requested on the text mockup)

Hi hosts!

This spring I proposed a learning game for new editors called The Wikipedia Adventure, through an Individual Engagement Grant--and it was accepted :)

The goal is to create an engaging introduction to Wikipedia that guides an editor in an interactive journey all about how to be successful in our communityj. By developing and collecting editing, policy, and social tools, we hope to reduce the common pain points and frustrations that discourage editors from staying with us and actively contributing.

I spent the last two months getting TWA ready, refining the script and preparing to build the game using Guided tours. I am working with an amazing designer and getting expert curation tips from the Grant program leader.

I'd love to have your feedback on it, before I get started with the build.

You can play through the full 7-mission text version of the game here: http://jatspan.org/twa2.html#29

I would love it if you would leave any thoughts, tips, comments, recommendations, suggestions, ideas, or concerns, at WP:TWA/Feedback.

Hope you're doing great, Ocaasi t | c 13:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Maitre d'

I posted this earlier, but got no response. Is it time to phase out the maitre d'? We have been sans one since March, and seem to be doing OK. Thoughts? Go Phightins! 19:20, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I intend to add myself to the calendar in the next few weeks once RL stuff settles down. Technical 13 (talk) 19:45, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

THQ TOC

I don't know how many people have noticed so far, but I've also recently modified the location, size, and workings of the Table of Contents on the THQ page... You can view the changes here, and I would love to get some feedback as to what people think of it. Do you like the tidy little TOC and the scrollbar? Should it be a little bigger or smaller? Should it be moved someplace else? The only part of it that I'm not entirely happy about is the fact the I can't make the Teahouse branch a background image that stays in the bottom right hand corner when I [hide/show] the TOC itself. Maybe someone else can figure that out, or I'll look it up later. Anyways, I look forward to hearing back from people about this! Technical 13 (talk) 19:16, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

  • I like that there is no horizontal scroll bar (a pet dislike of mine). Is the Teahouse logo at the bottom now unnecessary, as it's not on permanent display? No opinion on the number of items to show. NtheP (talk) 19:54, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
    • That was another bug in the archive box I fixed (was a pet peeve of mine as well). I was hoping to try and get the Teahouse logo to be a bottom-right aligned background image so the box isn't empty if you [hide] the TOC. Not sure how to get it where I want it. It's also linked to refresh the page, but might not be needed. Technical 13 (talk) 20:00, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
    He's trying to make that logo a permanent watermark. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 19:59, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I noticed this a while ago, but forgot to post. Just wanted to say thanks! It's a substantial usability improvement to the Q&A page. Your badge is in the mail :) - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 04:37, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks J-Mo. Any ideas on making the image be a background image in the box that doesn't move? Also, what do you think about a set of go to top/bottom links in there to quickly go to the bottom of the list like I've made on User:Technical 13/SandBox/Fancy TOC? The only thing I'm not completely satisfied with is the fact that it lines the top of the box up with the top of the screen and kind of throws me off guard even though I know it is coming. Technical 13 (talk) 10:12, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

I am hoping to add a link to the #wikipedia-en-help IRC channel at the top of the question page somewhere, but I wanted to achieve consensus first. I know something like this was attempted with a IRC channel specifically for the Teahouse, but it barely active. However the #wikipedia-en-help channel is almost *always* active. It would also be good to have more hosts over there to help out. nerdfighter 23:59, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it was hard to maintain a critical mass of staff to answer questions on the Teahouse IRC channel. IRC can be technically intimidating, and I suspect few guests will go there, but it can be really handy when you need help now. If we do put it back, I suggest making it unobtrusive, perhaps with decoration and placement similar Heather's original design. - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 00:19, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
One thing I have noticed on IRC is that people can sometimes be a little unwelcoming, so if we do put up the link, some hosts should go over to help out. nerdfighter 00:24, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I would be happy to contribute to such a project, but at the moment I do not have the means. Until this separation/divorce thing started, I had an IRC channel for my other wiki complete with an mIRC bot to welcome people and offer some fun stuff to do while waiting for host response. Once I get this settled and back on my feet, I would be happy to offer such a service. I would also be happy to help set someone up with such an mIRC bot upon request as I still have all of my scripts. Some of them are available on my DDOwiki mIRC scripts page.  :) Technical 13 (talk) 00:38, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
The help channel already has a bot, and there is not currently a requirement for a second one.
With regard to Jtmorgan's point about technically intimidating; a very large number of new editors do use the help channel, perhaps hundreds per week. The existing links from the AfC process don't require new editors to install IRC clients, or choose networks and channels and usernames and so on, so it can be relatively simple for them.
There are plenty of time periods during the day when help requests there go unanswered, so more help from teahouse hosts could be very useful. (Do be cautious "jumping in" when someone is already being helped, though, or inflicting pre-conceptions about how things work onto the discussions.) Teahouse hosts may find some of the approaches taken by existing helpers to be unfamiliar; it is not unknown to see help requests answered with comments like "fuck off, merc", and relatively common to see comments like "tell me why I should care".
The help channel does lend itself to getting some problems fixed much more quickly and easily than the teahouse questions page. "I wanna add an image", "what is the image of", "Bob from Guns N Roses", "who took the photograph that you want to use?", "my cousin Linda", "does she want to freely license her photo?", "yeah I think so?", "ok, ask her to fill out this form..." is a conversation that can take under a minute, as opposed to potentially days of back-and-forth on a non-interactive help medium. So I see adding the link as a very positive step. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:58, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
If you decide to add one, please keep in mind that it doesn't necessarily help the volunteers at the #wikipedia-en-help IRC channel to know that a new editor (in need of help) is coming from the Teahouse (or the WP:Article Wizard for example). That functionality was recently removed from the link that sends editors to #wikipedia-en-help from the Article Wizard. - tucoxn\talk 01:20, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
that would be fine by me. What I was trying to get at was that if in six month or whatever, after some of our hosts dipped their toes in IRC, if we wanted to put up a #wikipedia-en-teahouse channel, I would enjoy helping to write the "hostbot" for that project. Also, on my main wiki (linked to my scripts page above), I've added a script that automatically assumes the user's wiki name for IRC (or a pre-selected numbered name for anon) to the common.js there and would be happy to try and find a way to incorporate that function here somehow. Technical 13 (talk) 01:31, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. The WP-username-as-IRC-username functionality could potentially be very useful. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:44, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
There is no need for it on my other wiki, but I could add a simple "&#124;TH" for Teahouse guests. Technical 13 (talk) 02:03, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
The link might be Live help! and the script (collapsed below)...
Extended content
/**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//**//*
 * IRC Login name changer.  wgUserName + "|TH" if registered or "Teahouse_Guest##" otherwise.
 * BY: Technical_13
 * 10 April 2013
 */
var StartChatting = $('span#StartChatting a').text();
if (StartChatting == "Live help!" && wgUserName != "null"){
    var wgUserNamee = wgUserName.replace(' ', '_');
    var hrefCurrent= $('span#StartChatting a').attr('href');
    var hrefReplaced = hrefCurrent.replace('Teahouse_Guest..', wgUserNamee + '|TH');
    $('span#StartChatting a').attr('href', hrefReplaced);
}
Don't know where or how to get the JavaScript called... I could expand it to be more universal and propose it be put in MediaWiki:common.js I suppose. Comments, Complaints, Feedback, Questions, Rants, Suggestions? Technical 13 (talk) 12:36, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
I think it is better if we use ##wikipedia-teahouse-help connect channel. The wikipedia-en-help might not be the best place because the Teahouse is a "friendly" place and that channel is not always a friendly place. We could get Teahouse hosts and other helpers to be regularly active at teahouse-help channel. --Ushau97 (talk) 12:47, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
That would fragment both helpers and helpees across two different channels though, right? --Demiurge1000 (talk) 18:12, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
Yes and no... The Teahouse helpers would know they can be on more than one channel at a time (I can put a specialized link on Host lounge or something that opens all the help channels we might want to be in). Other helpers, may or may not monitor the extra channel, but since it is suppose to be a "friendly" channel, that may not be entirely bad. As far as the helpers go, we could offer them two/three links. A "Friendly help link, a "get a crude answer that may not be an answer now link", and a join both and see who answers first" link. Technical 13 (talk) 18:27, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

I really think that is over complicating it. The help IRC is very active already, and the people almost never bite newcomers (no more than the Teahouse). Why start a new channel, when we have a perfectly good one already? If you are really concerned about our etiquette and #wikipedia-en-help, you could go over to #wikipedia-en-helpers and remind the helper when they do something wrong. nerdfighter 19:12, 10 April 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Nerdfighter; almost no one came to wikipedia-teahouse-help when it was open; it'll be hard to keep such a low-traffic channel staffed. Send 'em to help IRC. - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 22:46, 10 April 2013 (UTC)


  1. support As proposer nerdfighter 17:14, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
  2. Support. As Junior Wrangler. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 17:20, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
  3. Technical 13 (talk) 20:47, 14 April 2013 (UTC)
  4. Support People having questions other than "Why did my article get rejected?" might entice me back to en-help. --I dream of horses (T) @ 04:09, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
  5. Support: No reason not to, although (off-topic) I'm a little sad that something entirely internal to the Teahouse now requires a formal RfC. What happened to the olden days, when we just did things and flung links, pages, templates, and user scripts every which way? It was more fun, if more than a little chaotic. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 05:00, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
    I agree it would have been a lot more fun that way. But in this case, we are also involving the Help Desk, I think. Which would justify a formal RfC. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 09:11, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
  6. Support. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 09:11, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
  7. Support --FrigidNinja 16:20, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
  8. Support I think that if we make our own IRC, we can optimize our channel so that active hosts are available to answer any questions that guests may have (in different time zones). I definitely think it's worth a shot. --JustBerry (talk) 22:27, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
    JustBerry You do realize there has been a link up there for a few weeks already, right? :) Technical 13 (talk) 22:29, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
    My apologies; I am a new host here. Thanks for letting me know. --JustBerry (talk) 22:32, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
    No problem. There is also a userscript I started working on (User:Technical 13/Scripts/Teahouse IRC.js) that you can include in your common.js and use that will improve the link to put you in all three help/helpers/teahouse rooms and put you in there with you Wikipedia username. If you need help adding it, let me know. Technical 13 (talk) 22:38, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
  1. There are a lot of ways to find en-help (meaning, we don't need to also add it to the Teahouse) and while the help you find there is usually friendly, it's not always and there are not even guidelines for interacting. Answering questions on IRC prevents the many people not on IRC from seeing and benefiting from the discussion and answers. And finally, the work is lost. I see more negatives than positives to sending people in that direction, not to mention adding yet another distracting link in the Teahouse which attempts to simplify the experience. One more thing. I find at en-help, people don't seem to understand that they are talking to other people volunteering their time. They speak to them like customer service representatives. Part of the purpose of the Teahouse is to show new users that Wikipedia is made up of other people who are offering their help, which is why we create introduction profiles as hosts and ask them to do so as well. heather walls (talk) 12:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
    • While those are all entirely valid points Heather, I don't find much being lost as far as record keeping. Currently of the 31 sections on the Teahouse TOC, maybe half of them are original questions of which something could be gained from having a log. Perhaps a Teahouse FAQ wouldn't be a bad idea? I would think, "How do I create and article", "How do I rename my article", How do I add a picture", "How do I add an infobox", "How do I link an item", "How do I add a table", "How do I find the right templates for my article", "How do I make a template", "How do I convert my XXX into a wikipage" would be a good starting point for such a page. Each in their own collapsible collapsed section in friendly easy to understand terms (some of the existing help on the subjects is quite technical and jargony) that people with even a poor ability to read/understand English can figure out. There are also many questions I see where a new editor simply asks, can you move XX to XX for me or rename XX to XX or can you XXXXX for me that IRC help-now would be more suited for. Technical 13 (talk) 14:28, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
We also do not have an FAQ very much on purpose. We have a how-to for hosts but we don't want to point people to yet another list. The Teahouse is about answering people's questions directly and personally :) and you guys are great at it! Perhaps we should have a page of "Why we do..." for people who weren't able to be part of the original conversations. heather walls (talk) 14:37, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I mean, surely you've experienced the rather unpleasant "RTFM" or "use the search button" on other internet forums, right, Technical13? :) That's the kind of thing we're trying to avoid. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I see nothing wrong in having a FAQ. We should not force other editors to wait until one of us replies when they can teach themselves by reading through. Of course, hosts would be forbidden to use them in answers, or as a substitute to asnwers, but we can surely have a FAQ to give the hosts and guests the best resources possible. [For example I never use any pictures while explaining as I dont know how to. But I have often seen them used in visual demos]TheOriginalSoni (talk) 14:44, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia is completely full of pages and pages trying to explain things and everyone has access to to teach themselves. The overwhelming amount of information is why people come to the Teahouse to get a personal answer. They can also scan every question ever asked if they want to. heather walls (talk) 14:48, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I honestly never have had any "RTFM" or "use the search button" responses to questions before. What I'm suggesting is that we have our own friendly worded FAQ because currently trying to find things on this wiki can be needle in a haystack-ish project and you may never find what you are looking for. This would give our hosts a cheat-sheet (we seem to get a lot of new hosts that would likely very much appreciate this) and we would be able to point people directly to the right section of it for their question unless we feel a more personalized response is warranted. Eitherway... This idea probably needs its own section and if no-one objects, I'd like to move it. Technical 13 (talk) 18:41, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree. Of all the pages that exist to "help" users, few are simple and none are friendly. It would do well to have an FAQ that manages to do both. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 18:49, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

Comments

Picking up the thread on a proposed Teahouse FAQ here. The thing new users like most about the Teahouse is the personal, friendly, prompt responses they receive. I don't see how creating a new FAQ could make answers more personal, more friendly or even more prompt (other than by making it easier for drop-in hosts to give terse single-link replies. Which would suck.). The hands-down most user-friendly curated collection of help links for new users is already pretty visible, and is actively maintained by the Help WikiProject. Creating a new, separate set of help resources only exacerbates the problem IMO. - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 20:31, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

...also, back to the original topic of this thread, I just saw this response from Gwickwire on the Q&A page. Out of curiosity, did the IP user ever show up in IRC? Did it prove useful? - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 19:50, 19 April 2013 (UTC)

Yes, the IP did come to the IRC help channel, and it proved very useful. I feel that it went very well in the channel. I wouldn't normally recommend this unless there's complex questions (such as this was, having the logo, information, company, ownage, etc) that could take days to figure out with -question- -answer few hours later- -question few hours later- -answer few hours later-, whereas in real time, this was resolved in less time, with probably less frustration waiting for answers on the IPs part. gwickwiretalkediting 19:55, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
if they're not already there is it worth adding a summary of the IRC Q&A so the questions on the question page are "signed off"? NtheP (talk) 20:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
If it's not too much overhead, I think it would be helpful. At very least, a note that says "this question was answered on IRC (with a link to the chan)." - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 21:12, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Hi everyone! If this proposal meets community consensus, we still have the issue of how it will be formatted. This is how WP:HD has the link:
Do you need live-chat help with your issue?
Join our IRC channel at #wikipedia-en-help connect
But divbox has other style options, or we have the option to not use divbox at all. Thoughts? nerdfighter 23:39, 21 April 2013 (UTC)
If you decide to add the link, as the designer of the pages I volunteer to find a place for the link (there was one in our original designs). Another solution would be to add them to the banners being discussed in the next section. :) heather walls (talk) 01:17, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Less is more, IMO. I suggest hewing closer to Heather's original design, which is already nicely integrated into our overall look-and-feel. We already know (from trying a similarly explicit IRC call-to-action over a year ago) that relatively few new users will choose IRC on their own. I sat in #wikipedia-teahouse for weeks and only saw one guest! Keeping the Teahouse looking like the Teahouse—keeping it clean, keeping explanatory text to a minimum, focusing guests attention on the primary purpose of each page—is an important part of what we do. - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 01:29, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

Can we look forward to implementing it now? Its 15 days already and we have plenty of support here. Also, hosts are requested to lend a hand at the IRC channel. We do happen to run short of volunteers, especially during specific hours of the day. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 23:58, 29 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm okay if it closes, but an uninvolved editor should do it, right? nerdfighter 17:11, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
I have added the link Technical 13 provided, to the Template:TH question page. I am wondering whether we should add it to the main WP:TH page --Ushau97 (talk) 06:33, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Hi guys, I reduced the link to make it fit visually with the language of the page, please do not add it to other pages. I also don't see anyone from Teahouse in help right now and frankly, I wouldn't be sending people there with what I have been seeing lately. If you aren't going to make a big effort to be in the help channel, I would reconsider having the link, or perhaps even turning it on only when you are available. Thank you, I appreciate your work even when I am recommending against some things :) heather walls (talk) 07:24, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. I have been a regular at the IRC help for the past few days now. By my experience there, most of the time, the IRC does succeed in helping the user, although some of the times it does become a bit bitey. But there is nothing there we can't change. Especially if we can invite the help IRC regulars (Huon and nonsenseferret are two of them who share the shifts with me) to come over, and try helping around at the Teahouse. The situation Heather mentioned can certainly be changed if we're willing to patrol the IRC more regularly, and work together with the other IRC regulars. TheOriginalSoni (talk) 07:53, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
I have also recently started to volunteer at the help channel. From what I see, most users who come there are users asking about their afc submissions. And although the help channel is not as friendly as the Teahouse, it sure is not always a biting place. And as TheOriginalSoni said, if we're willing to change the situation there, we can surely improve it. Cheers --Ushau97 (talk) 11:39, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Yellow on yellow is very hard to see. Do you mind if I change it to blue? nerdfighter 13:22, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
How about green or purple? Not sure blue is going to stand out enough on that beige-ish yellow background. Technical 13 (talk) 16:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Well purple will make it look like a clicked link, which could be misleading. I'm okay with green or blue. nerdfighter 16:11, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I changed up the link to make it bold with blue and a » character. What do you think? nerdfighter 20:41, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
  • For those of you interested. I've written a userscript — importScript('User:Technical 13/Scripts/Teahouse IRC.js'); //User script to modify Teahouse IRC link — that you can use that will automatically replace "Teahouse.." as your default username with whatever your wikipedia username is prepended to "|TH". Feel free to try it out, and I would love some feed back and suggestions. I'm already working on trying to make it semi configurable to allow you to opt out of the "|TH" or specify another handle for it to slip in automatically. Also researching how the other IRC switches work so that people can join more than one room automatically, skip the confirmation page, and pick other options. Technical 13 (talk) 17:25, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Archive navigation

Hello! I was just browsing through the question archive, when I noticed that the "Archive Navigation" bar didn't offer much for navigation.
I decided to investigate why that was and viewed the source of an archive page where I found that the pages are using {{Talk archive navigation}}.
I thought okay, nothing very strange there, and I decided to take a peek at that template.
When I got to Template:Talk archive navigation and started reading the documentation, I noticed a disclaimer that says, "This template will only work for archive pages up to 50. For numbers greater than that, some other system such as {{Archive navigation}} should be used instead."
We currently have 104 archive pages... So, I decided to check out the alternatives and I think that some variation of {{Automatic archive navigator}} would be the most suitable replacement.
Thoughts? Comments? Shall I make the modification to Mizabot's configuration to use the other template? Do we want to customize the display of the navigator any from default? Once all of this has been figured out, I'd be happy to run through our archives with WP:AWB and update to use the new template and design. Thanks. Technical 13 (talk) 12:04, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Thanks for curating, Technical. - J-Mo Talk to Me Email Me 23:29, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Okay, so I have put {{Automatic archive navigator}} up on the Q page already and on Tuesday if no-one objects I'll run AWB an apply it to all of the archives as well. :) Technical 13 (talk) 22:30, 25 May 2013 (UTC)
Will be doing this by the end of the week (need to clear my current list out of AWB) and then will apply. Technical 13 (talk) 19:25, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Here's my alternate solution, originally posted on User talk:Heatherawalls and revised because of Technical's edit.
Actually, since these are sandboxes, I suppose I can change it. Here is the link to the older archive, and here is the archive itself.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:32, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

You are correct, Technical, in your edit summary when you say the full archive is too long for the Teahouse page itself. I never said it belonged there, but it belongs somewhere.— Vchimpanzee · talk · contributions · 19:46, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Per the related conversation at User talk:Heatherawalls#Teahouse archives links I'd like to add it to all of the archive pages as a transcluded header. I'm starting to wonder if perhaps we should format up a special teahouse archive header incorporating all of {{Automatic archive navigator}}, the complete archive list box and a specially formated TOC? Technical 13 (talk) 23:32, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Repeating some of my answer from the other place as a reminder: The first priority of WP:Teahouse/Questions is the very new users and we want them to ask their question, not search an archive. We want to minimize access to archives on that page (left alone, I would have less), which I know probably goes against the instincts of experienced Wikipedians. I do think that using that box on the archive pages themselves is a great idea. Thanks for all of your efforts! And Technical 13, it may be because I have had a fever for a week and a half, but I'm not sure what you're saying. What is the new template and design? All I care about is what ends up on the question page, is that different? If so, can you show me what you mean? :) heather walls (talk) 23:36, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear that you're ill, and I wish you a speedy recovery. I've made some improvements to the Q page itself like the smaller formatted TOC with scrollbar and I've made a fix to the archive box to stop the h-scrollbar that was happening. I actually agree that a smaller 3×3 archive box might look better. As far as the template I mentioned in the above section, I had the archive pages themselves in mind. Technical 13 (talk) 00:47, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed Archive box for THQ

{{navbar}}

{{Teahouse_questions_archiveline|set=Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive|start=101|next=109}}


Since I entirely agree that the archives should be only used to find Questions and Answers for the people involved in the original discussion, what do you all think of this proposal to reduce the size of the archive box and modify the search section a little? This goes from a 2×10 archive box (20 archives) to a 3×3 archive box (9 archives). I also wouldn't be opposed to a 2×5 (10 archives) or a 3×4 (12 archives) middle ground if anyone really thinks archives are needed here (I don't). Technical 13 (talk) 18:47, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

  • Actually, I went back and looked at the Q page again and that change would disrupt the flow because of the way that I modified the TOC to line up with the archive box... Maybe the second or third design would be better? I'd even be okay just removing one line and making it 1×10 with the search like the fourth one. Technical 13 (talk) 21:09, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

{{navbar}}

  102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109  

{{navbar}}

{{Teahouse archiveline|set=Wikipedia:Teahouse/Questions/Archive|number=10|next=110}}

Cool! I like #3, or the search button with no numbers at all. The three digit numbers are getting a little long. Nice work :) heather walls (talk) 00:32, 31 May 2013 (UTC)
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