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Pro Bowl alternates

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I've noticed while scanning the pages of recent Pro Bowls that the roster sections include a separate column for players selected as alternates. Each of those players also has a footnote by their name explaining that they were a "Replacement player selection due to an injury or vacancy" (example, 2025). Is it necessary to both place alternates in a separate alternates column and give them each a footnote explaining that they were an alternate? OceanGunfish (talk) 18:21, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's important information. It's important to know who are real Pro Bowlers and who are alternates because a lot of alternates aren't deserving. Literally like 50% of the players in the league have a chance at being alternates if enough people decline the invites or are injured. See this comment I left on Yankees10's talk page in 2017 about how excessive the AFC Pro Bowl QB invites were that year. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 18:36, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Oh I for sure agree that it should be noted who the alternates are. It just seems redundant to me to place them in a separate column and then still put a footnote on each one too. OceanGunfish (talk) 18:37, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, the footnotes aren't needed. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 23:19, 10 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I have made this change at 2000 Pro Bowl. If there are no objections to how it looks, I will do the rest. OceanGunfish (talk) 23:16, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

MVP selectors

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WP:NFLINFOBOXDO says that “League MVPs from the following selectors: AP, NEA, PFWA, UPI, and the Joe. F. Carr Trophy” are to be recognized as “NFL MVP” in player infoboxes. The awards have mostly all gone to the same person, but in years where they didn’t, infoboxes in fact seem to treat solely the AP selection as MVP. Marshall Faulk isn’t listed for his PFWA selection in 2001, Jamal Lewis is listed as “PFWA NFL MVP” for 2003 (whereas the style guide says to list as “NFL MVP” without qualifying it as “PFWA”), Kurt Warner isn’t listed for his NEA selection in 2008, and Lamar Jackson isn’t listed for his PFWA selection in 2024. I checked some going back before 2000 and the pattern seems to continue. The only non-AP awards I’ve seen listed as NFL MVP without qualification are Lenny Moore for 1964 (was an NEA selection), Charlie Conerly for 1959 (NEA, listed as “NFL MVP - NEA”), and awards from seasons before the AP began making selections.

Normally I might edit these pages to be in line with the style guide, but here it seems like actual practice across multiple articles just doesn’t agree with the guide. Should the guide be changed to reflect actual practice, which seems to be to treat the AP as the sole selector for “NFL Most Valuable Player” since 1957? If so, should other major MVP selectors be added to infoboxes in some other way? Or should we apply the style guide and start listing non-AP major selectors as “Most Valuable Player” without qualification? Generalcp702user talk 18:39, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure how this will turn out. I believe Joe Klecko, Mark Gastineau, and Calais Campbell all have their awards listed. It makes no sense. I didn't remove them, not really knowing if it was AP or bust for the infobox. Same problem goes for All-Pro and All-American selectors. An editor last week removed the first-team because it was PFWA and only kept the second-team AP there. Bringingthewood (talk) 21:50, 12 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We should list the other selectors mentioned in the style guide. For example, Dan Fouts' HOF profile mentions his 1982 MVP from PFWA. Other books have the historical winners of non-AP awards. WP should be based off independent sources, not necessarily the wishes of the NFL, who themselves never even call the AP official and lists the PFWA award in their annual record book. —Bagumba (talk) 00:05, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If missed on another post above, I've implemented a cleaner, genericized format on Jayden Daniels article that lists all main selectors on a single line to avoid infobox clutter and AP favoritism. @Bagumba: I made College Football Player of the Year redirect to a newly created article, the list of college football player of the year awards, to avoid bot redirects. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 02:22, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Dissident93: Do we need the footnotes on the selectors in the infobox, or is it cleaner to leave the details to the body (either in normal text or footnote)? WP:NFLINFOBOX currently reads (for related honors):

When listing All-American and All-Pro selections, there is no need to list the selector.

—Bagumba (talk) 02:35, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I removed plenty of All-American selectors, citing the WP:NFLINFOBOXNOT (misc. info). But all these selectors usually go back to AP as number one. I've been guilty in the past .. asking why can't I put my favorite player as first-team All-American? Welll, SI and ESPN are not top-notch worthy let's say. I agree, we can't list everybody. So AP All-American second-team was put there instead. This seems like another slippery slope. All-Pro has been following suit. Bringingthewood (talk) 03:28, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Dissident93 and I discussed this above in a different topic. If we don't include a note, readers just assume it is AP only. For example if someone added 2024 NFL MVP without a note to Lamar Jackson, I'm 100% sure someone will come along and remove it because they think Josh Allen was the only MVP this year (Jackson was PFWA MVP). The awards section in the body shouldn't have notes though since there is enough room there to give the details of each selector. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 06:49, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder for MVP if it's a problem anymore after we changed it to be a summarized table of all the selectors, instead of the previous sequential list, where AP was at the top of the page. —Bagumba (talk) 11:36, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Readers don't actually click the link. They just assume AP is what the infobox is talking about. Here's a recent diff of a newbie removing PFWA MVP from Jackson. Also, "ap trumps pfwa, ill add this in accolade section" by HappyBoi3892 (not a noob) ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 15:23, 13 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
As long as they are individually listed and cited in the body either as prose or a bulleted list, footnotes can probably be omitted for the infobox. The Lamar Jackson PWFA MVP example WikiOriginal linked presents another issue for footnotes, as the current format would imply Jackson also won AP's the same season. Cases like this are rare though, with only six discrepancies between PFWA and AP MVP winners since 1990 (and two in the last 20 seasons). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 01:04, 15 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
For the few editors that might continue to change due to "AP only", we could put a WP:HIDDENCOMMENT, repeating what should already be sourced in the body. —Bagumba (talk) 01:45, 15 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
D93, I'm a little confused about your "footnotes can probably be omitted for the infobox" comment. Your Jayden Daniels article currently has notes. Also, Lamar's note could say "AP: 2019, 2023 PFWA: 2024). Readers will probably still try to remove it though since Josh Allen was the "real MVP". We'll never agree on this stuff lol... ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 02:27, 15 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't changed that on Daniels page since making this topic as I was waiting on more comments first. Since most editors here already consider the AP awards to be the "main" ones, maybe we could keep status quo while adding any additional non-AP selectors in a footnote? Perhaps I'm just being too pendantic here (and you're right in that this may never have a perfect solution; this has been discussed for years), but all of these MVP awards should be included and cited somewhere within the article at the very least. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:05, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Since most editors here already consider the AP awards to be the "main" ones ...: If here means this thread, I don't see anyone saying that explicitly, just acknowledging thats how it's currently on most pages, with some exceptions, but counter to WP:NFLINFOBOX. —Bagumba (talk) 12:33, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Not here, but how most articles are actually formatted and maintained. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 23:31, 25 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Bert Bell Award: This seems to be in the infobox of all its winners' pages. Is this more notable than all the other non-AP MVP awards? While local club awards like the Heisman Trophy and Maxwell Award are prominent among college awards, I don't think the same applies at the pro level. It's not listed at WP:NFLINFOBOX. —Bagumba (talk) 23:42, 16 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Non-AP sourcing

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Non-AP NFL MVP sourcing
Year Player Selector Current infobox display Sources
Total Football II PFHOF
1957 Johnny Unitas NEA — Yes (pp. 387–388) No[1]
1957 Y. A. Tittle UPI — No [2]
1959 Charlie Conerly NEA NFL MVP – NEA (1959)
1961 Y. A. Tittle NEA — Yes [3]
1962 Y. A. Tittle Sporting News — Ambig [4]
UPI — Ambig [5]
1963 Jim Brown NEA — Yes [6]
UPI — Yes [7]
1964 Lenny Moore NEA NFL Most Valuable Player (1964) Yes [8]
1971 Bob Griese NEA Jim Thorpe Trophy (1971) No [9]
1978 Earl Campbell PFWA — Yes [10]
NEA — Yes [11]
1980 Earl Campbell NEA — Yes [12]
1982 Dan Fouts PFWA – Yes [13]
NEA – Yes [14]
1983 Eric Dickerson Sporting News – Yes [15]
1985 Walter Payton NEA — Yes [16]
1986 Phil Simms NEA Jim Thorpe Trophy (1986)
1987 Jerry Rice PFWA — Yes [17]
Sporting News — Yes [18]
NEA — Yes [19]
1988 Roger Craig NEA Jim Thorpe Trophy (1988)
1990 Randall Cunningham PFWA —
1990 Warren Moon NEA — Yes [20]
1992 Emmitt Smith NEA — No [21]
1998 Randall Cunningham NEA Jim Thorpe Trophy (1998)
2001 Marshall Faulk PFWA — No [22]
Sporting News — Yes [23]
2003 Jamal Lewis PFWA PFWA NFL Most Valuable Player (2003)
2008 Kurt Warner NEA — No [24]
2024 Lamar Jackson PFWA –

Above is a summary of non-AP NFL MVP winners, limited to years where the player did not also win the AP award, which began in 1957. Generally, these are mentioned in the independent sources Total Football II: The Official Encyclopedia of the National Football League as well as the Pro Football Hall of Fame website (for inductees). Currently, NEA's MVP, the Jim Thorpe Trophy, is the most listed in infoboxes. Based on the coverage, limiting the infobox to only AP MVPs seems WP:UNDUE.—Bagumba (talk) 10:58, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

An obit by AP for Harlon Hill mentions his 1955 Jim Thorpe Trophy.[25]—Bagumba (talk) 04:27, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Citing a Draft Card

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Stella Gadd is related to Hal Hinte. They have asserted that Hinte was born in Mount Hope, West Virginia, not Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, which PFR states. Now they have added Hinte's draft card to the article, supporting their claim. That said, draft cards are primary sources and I can imagine that many people who may have been born somewhere and then moved somewhere else as an infant would maybe not self-report their correct birthplace, and instead just provide their hometown where they grew up. Not sure how to handle this. Any thoughts? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 15:19, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

  • I think I'd go for the source from the time rather than a database from 80 years later. I've found a couple PFR birthplaces that have been contradicted by other sources about the player, e.g. Wes Carlson which I wrote yesterday. I could also look through some census records for Hinte if you like. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:57, 17 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    There's Alex Smith sourced to Bremerton, Washington, but pfr says Seattle. Sometimes people use the closest big city for convenience because non-locals otherwise wouldn't know the actual place. Or maybe its hometown being incorrectly used as birthplace. I don't use genealogy sites, but perhaps they would be slightly more reliable sourcing for draft card, birth certs, etc. than a user upload? Other options would be to omit the birthplace entirely until it's more obvious, or present both, possibly even in a footnote (see Wikipedia:Inaccuracy). —Bagumba (talk) 12:31, 18 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
    It appears one of their earlier birthplace edits was cited to "Social Security Applications and Claims Index, 1936-2007; World War II Draft Cards Young Men, 1940-1947; and information from family."[26] —Bagumba (talk) 04:40, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I am not related to Hal Hinte. In addition to the draft card, I have a 1945 marriage record that has his birthplace. I am trying to upload it. Here is the records page where I found the marriage record: West Virginia Vital Research Records Project: https://dach-image-proxy.digital-relativity.workers.dev/?film=862731&frame=00536 E.M. Smith (talk) 21:05, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]
His family is in the 1930 census with the surname misspelled "Hinty." He birthplace is "West Virginia." U.S. Census 1930; Census Place: Fayetteville, Fayette, West Virginia; Page: 24A; Enumeration District: 0016; FHL microfilm: 2342265 Also, Pennsylvania, U.S., Veteran Compensation Application Files, WWII, 1950-1966, lists his birthplace as Mount Hope, W.Va.: Name Harold A Hinte Birth Date 25 Jan 1920 Birth Place MT Hope, Fayette, West Virginia, USA Residence Date 12 Jun 1950 Residence Place Jacksonville, Duval, Florida, USA E.M. Smith (talk) 21:13, 19 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Player infobox captions

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FYI

You're invite to join a discussion about team sports athletes' infobox captions at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Captions § Infobox caption of team sport athlete.—Bagumba (talk) 08:48, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Keith "End Zone" Jones#Requested move 21 February 2025

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There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Keith "End Zone" Jones#Requested move 21 February 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —Bagumba (talk) 18:53, 21 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Multiple sets of standings on pages.

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I usually work on historical pages as opposed to current articles. Why are multiple divisions standings templates appearing on pages ex. 1957 Pittsburgh Steelers season? This seems utterly pointless as the Steelers are in only one division. Should we add the other seven division standings to the 2024 Pittsburgh Steelers page?- UCO2009bluejay (talk) 00:31, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The convention for current seasons is to have a team's division standings and their conference standings. I agree that the other division shouldn't be shown for 1957, as there was no wildcard and thus no impact on the Steelers' ability to make the playoffs. Harper J. Cole (talk) 01:12, 23 February 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:NFL Kickoff Game#Requested move 21 February 2025

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There is a requested move discussion at Talk:NFL Kickoff Game#Requested move 21 February 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. TarnishedPathtalk 12:53, 1 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

NFL Draft Declaration Statements

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Do you guys prefer the statements that say that a player is declaring for the NFL Draft, as well as statements regarding East-West Shrine Bowl and Reese's Senior Bowl participation, to be in the College career section or the Professional career section on any given player's page? I've seen plenty of examples over the years of them where sometimes, these statements are in the College career section, and other times, they're in the Professional career section. My preference is to have them in the Professional career section.

RevMSWIE500 (talk) 04:29, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Just because a player declares for the NFL Draft isn't a guarantee that he will get drafted and may never play in the pros. As such, the player would not have a Professional career section on his page. Also, the East-West Shrine Bowl and Reese's Senior Bowl are college related. Therefore, these statements should be in the College career section. Assadzadeh (talk) 05:30, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
If a player participates in the NFL Combine and never makes it to the pros by not getting drafted and not getting signed as an undrafted free agent, what section would the NFL Combine stats be in, since that player's page wouldn't have a Professional career section? If the stats were to be in a separate section from the College career section since the stats come from a professional league, what should that section be called?
RevMSWIE500 (talk) 09:13, 3 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
In the rare cases they don't even get a single tryout following the combine, it could just be moved back into the college section or removed entirely. 99.9% of combine performances are not notable and the ones that are should be noted as prose. Honestly, the tables are nothing more than stats cruft anyway and I'd support their removal in a RfD. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 17:27, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Football America

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Thoughts on what to do with Football America. The article confusingly declares it is about 3 different pieces of media that are related. In essence, should be a disambig page, right? With links to articles on the book, the film and the Tv show (as long as they are all notable)? « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 20:54, 7 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say so as there are barely any sources anyway. Even if more can be added, I'd still lean towards a disambig page unless the three products were officially connected to each other or are considered spiritual successors at least. Without that, sharing the same concept and name isn't enough as it leads to confusion/misinformation. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 17:25, 9 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

W-L record in short descriptions

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Would anybody oppose adding W-L records to the short description in team season articles? For example, 2024 Washington Commanders season would display "93rd season in franchise history; 12–5". ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:39, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]

It's unnecessary as it's already included in the infobox. Assadzadeh (talk) 22:48, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Short descriptions can be seen without viewing the article itself (and thus seeing its infobox), mainly in the search bar and when browsing categories with a user script. That logic would make every short description unnecessary. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 23:59, 10 March 2025 (UTC)[reply]
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