Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football

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WikiProject Football was featured in a WikiProject Report in the Signpost on 3 March 2008.

This WikiProject was featured on the WikiProject report at the Signpost on 9 July 2012.

On 4 August 2022, it was proposed that this page be moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject Association football. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Assistant/youth roles

Could someone please explain to me what's the criteria of adding some managerial roles to the infobox while others are completely ignored? I mean, why Enzo Maresca's spell in the Man City EDS it's more important than Carlos Corberán's spell at the Juvenil A side of Alcorcón, when both play youth tournaments which are equally important to their nations? And why assistant roles are completely ignored when some managers spent the most of their careers in that role?

I thought the infobox was supposed to give information to the normal reader... In my opinion, omitting those spells from the infobox would actually provide an incomplete resume of the manager's career. I'd say that's valid to add youth and assistant spells to the infobox, given their importance to the actual meaning to a technical staff, but I do agree that scout/director/fitness coach roles should not appear in the managerial section, because youth manager is still a manager, and assistant is basically the second in command while the manager is suspended/expelled/absent.

What's your input over this? BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 03:25, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It should be managerial roles only, except in limited circumstances (e.g. someone who is well known for being an assistant). Giant Snowman 07:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, assistant roles at a national team could be added (not 100% for me) but not more. Kante4 (talk) 08:06, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So not the assistant roles of José Mourinho then?--Egghead06 (talk) 11:30, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think its valid and important to add assistant roles. Would help explain gaps for people who may have been an assistant in between manager roles. RedPatch (talk) 11:37, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I second this as it gets quite confusing with someone like Hansi Flick who has a 14 year gap between his stints at TSG Hoffenheim and Bayern Munich due to having been an assistant coach for the majority of that gap. SparklessPlug (talk | contribs) 12:58, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He was a manager in 2005 and was not a manager again until 2019. Where is the confusion? Wouldn't it be more confusing for someone to be a coach for six months, an assistant for a year, whilst also helping out as a coach at another side, then they stop being coach / assistant and become a manager at the original club for 14 years, only to have their "Managerial career" section of the infobox have 4 lines, 3 of which were of no significance, 3 of which were at the same club? How about just having managerial roles in the managerial section of the infobox? --Echetus Xe 14:03, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How about an all or nothing approach? Either just managerial roles are allowed or any role in football is allowed e.g. assistant manager, coach, scout, etc. Allowing some roles, sometimes is creating the current confusion.--Egghead06 (talk) 14:10, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would go with nothing other than manager roles. Kante4 (talk) 14:16, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Other sports list assistant roles. Yeah, yeah WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, I know. However, would the basic reader be interested in seeing an assistant role... I'd think yes. RedPatch (talk) 15:46, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say that assistant and youth manager roles are interesting to the common reader, other ones aren't. I'd personally would prefer to see them in the infobox as they'd show a more concise info to me without making me needing to read the entire article to understand/find those infos. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 17:44, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Youth manager roles are OK, but why does an assistant need to be in the infobox? Giant Snowman 17:45, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why it doesn't need to? The assistant is the second in command, often replaces the manager in suspensions or health issues, and is often the closest step to a managerial role which several managers take (this and the youth manager roles). Like other users stated above, sometimes there's a big gap (like in Flick's career, where he spent 14 years in other roles) which is not clear in the infobox and is not very informative to the normal reader (in Flick's case, the period where he was an assistant of Salzburg is not clear even in the storyline either). Plus, several assistant coaches (like Milton Cruz or Marcelo Fernandes) spent a great deal of time being an caretaker/interim manager/head coach for his team while still acting as an assistant. Omitting this spell from the infobox would be confusing, IMO, like: where does this manager comes from? :)

The current way (where assistant duties are added according to importance) is really subjective, there's no type of metric to measure this. That's why I first raised the question here. Some consistency must exist at WP:FOOTY/Players so we can basis the edits on this, like several other cases. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 12:34, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that, whatever is decided, showing assistant roles only for someone who is "well known for being an assistant" is a non-starter, because deciding who fits into that category is OR... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:38, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all - plenty of coaches are well known for being an assistant for all/part of their career, see e.g. Mike Phelan, famously assistant to Sir Alex for many years, Carlos Queiroz in the same role, André Villas-Boas as assistant to Mourinho at a number of clubs etc etc. Giant Snowman 16:36, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: At Phelan, the "coaching career" section begins with this sentence: "He returned to Carrow Road in December 1995, as an assistant manager to Gary Megson (another former Norwich player) and managed the club's reserve team." If that parenthesis wasn't there, this would make the normal reader either enter the article about Carrow Road, or read the previous sections, or have a pretty good knowledge of football to know that's the stadium of Norwich City. Having that info in the infobox would be way clearer and direct, TBH... And that's just an example, others might have his assistant spells very unclear in the storyline, such as Flick's period at Salzburg. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 16:58, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

GS's example really limits this to Premier League and Champions League level teams. Of course there's gonna be extensive coverage of everything related to these teams, including the assistant coaches. This is why we now get the articles for 15-year-olds with 0 senior career to speak of but which were signed by so-and-so English club. What about hundreds of other coaches who had significantly long assistant spells but at a lower level of media attention? Not worthy? --BlameRuiner (talk) 21:15, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Jayden Reid

Or rather, two Jayden Reid's. There is a Jayden Reid who is English and a Jayden Reid (soccer) who is American, both were born in 2001. I'm unfamiliar with how to go forward with the articles, if we need a disambiguous page or to have a better clarification in the article names or what.

I know there are two Antony's, but they are respectively labeled "footballer, born 2000" and "footballer, born 2001".

I just need a little help here, its nothing huge. HYTEN CREW (talk) 16:14, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a headnote to each article pointing to their namesakes - I think this is sufficient (though I've also added links to the Reid (surname) article). The English player article was started in 2021, so is presumably the primary topic, while the American is a more recent (2024) creation. Paul W (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the decision is to disambig in the end (i.e. neither is a primary), then can be done by month of birth as one is in April and one is in August. Also IMO can be (and would be preferable) done by nationality, but the consensus on the project is to prefer birth year + month if needed. --SuperJew (talk) 18:09, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If we were to disambiguate, then the relevant naming convention WP:NCSP#Association football (soccer) would seem to prefer nationality, as "English footballer" and "American soccer" are surely more conclusive (i.e. helpful to the reader) than going down to month of birth. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:22, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, I agree. However that was not the consensus reached on this talk page in recent discussions. But maybe it needs to be reopened. --SuperJew (talk) 18:57, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you please link the discussion? I can't find it and I'd like to evaluate the parameters they decided on. HYTEN CREW (talk) 19:00, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From a quick search got this (and the discussion following it) and this. I might be misreading the discussions, but I'm also going off that in my experience the main disambiguator is year/birthdate, while nationality is rarer (and the ones which I have seen have been replaced by birth mostly). For example Adama Traoré (footballer, born 1990) and Adama Traoré (footballer, born 1996) are not Adama Traoré (Ivorian footballer) and Adama Traoré (Spanish footballer). (always love this one remembering when they played against each other in 2022 and both scored too) --SuperJew (talk) 19:51, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Neither seems primary, so disambiguation needed. I get that the project prefers YOB, but given they are April 2001 and August 2001, nationality is MUCH clearer. Also, consensus can change, and while I have previously supported (and still do use the YOB), I personally would prefer the nationality method to become a new standard. I get nationality can be a bit fluid in football, but if I was quizzed on players, I could pick out their nationality with much better accuracy than I could their YOB, which this makes more sense for a title IMO. RedPatch (talk) 01:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also, if and when a DAB page is created, Jayden Reed should probably be included on it. RedPatch (talk) 01:17, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I dabed by nationality in this case, and sometimes agree it's a better disambiguator than age except for cases of dual-nats, or worse players dabbed by multiple national team. Ironically, also created the DAB page for one of the players brothers too, Tyler Reid.--Ortizesp (talk) 13:53, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good! Giant Snowman 16:33, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FIFA 100 Footballer Positions

I'm working on the FIFA 100 article and I'd like to bring it to FLC in the near future. Is it OR to display the position of each player without a source for each individual one (and on top of that a table highlighting the number of players in the list by position)? Some players also played in multiple positions (e.g. Forward/Midfielder). As a follow-up, is it OR to show each player's career span?

The FIFA 100 list itself as published doesn't show neither the positions nor, obviously, the active playing years for the players in it. Sgubaldo (talk) 18:30, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe to start just do GK DF MF FW like many other lists do, but it is probably best to just do the primary position for each player if you were to want to elaborate each player's positions but idk I could be wrong. HYTEN CREW (talk) 18:52, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Help with a GA Review

I'm currently reviewing the GA nomination for Stadio Olimpico, an stadium in Rome which is home to the Italian teams SS Lazio and AS Roma. The nominator is Italian, and is having difficulty actioning my concerns/suggestions. We were hoping that he could get some support so the nomination doesn't automatically fail. The biggest issue right now is the excessive detail the article is going into regarding stadium history which is not seen in other stadiums at GA. The article is also going through a GA nom on the Italian wiki. Rollinginhisgrave (talk) 16:34, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

San Siro

The article discuses the stadium and also the happenings of the City of Milan, AC Milan, and Inter Milan. There are lots and lots of "Milans" and it gets quite confusing when past the first paragraph AC Milan gets shortened to just Milan. Should we use Rossoneri and Nerazzurri or just not shorten it and use the full names (AC Milan and Inter Milan) or what. Also there is little consistency between calling it "San Siro" like "Old Trafford" or "the San Siro" like "the Emirates". HYTEN CREW (talk) 19:12, 30 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

FIFA World Cup

Taking Munir Mohamedi as an example (the only Moroccan player i currently edit), the following easy question: is the fourth place at the World Cup an honour? Last time i checked it was not, but things could have changed in the meantime (most likely they have not, found this Goal article from DECEMBER 2022 https://www.goal.com/en/news/who-gets-world-cup-winners-medal/bltc6fd5bdd2a8a8e8a; "interesting" fun fact regarding the South Korea NT on the topic)...

IP in the article has now resorted to (slight, i'll give them that) insults in edit summaries. For my part, i have performed my last reversion until i get an answer here. Attentively RevampedEditor (talk) 01:42, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it is, and personally am of the opinion that only winning it should be an honour... Ortizesp (talk) 21:09, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No, fourth is not an honour. Kante4 (talk) 21:11, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

2011 Copa América Team of the Tournament

Hi. There is confusion about the 2011 Copa América Team of the Tournament. The teams featured at 2011 Copa América#Team of the Tournament and at Template:2011 Copa América Team of the Tournament are different. Why is this the case? Which is the official one? Mazewaxie (talk • contribs) 09:49, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Probably worth pinging Lnhbm, who created the template in 2020 with a line-up which matches the article, but then changed the line-up in the template in 2021 with no edit summary to indicate why..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:56, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I restored the correct team, per CONMEBOL official website. Mazewaxie (talk • contribs) 07:30, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Sports events at Wembley Stadium

Might need wider discussion given that it doesn't only affect football, but should this category be split into two given that we have two separate articles on the 1923-2000 stadium and the 2007-present stadium.............? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:45, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the 'New Wembley' inherits the legacy of the 'Old Wembley' and for all intents and purposes they are treated as the same thing from a venue point of view. I can't think of many other good examples of stadiums that had massive renovation or complete reconstruction and they did this where they acted like it was the same thing but like Soldier Field perhaps or Hampden Park follow this rule. London Stadium pre and post Olympics and its renovation thing too, I think. Camp Nou currently, furthermore. HYTEN CREW (talk) 14:41, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sweden football teams

Recently dab-pages were created from the redirects on Sweden national under-19 football team and Sweden national under-17 football team. Unfortunately, that gives problems on the article UEFA. Issue is the template:nft links that seem to miss the option to differentiate between the men's and women's teams. Do you have any idea how to solve this? The Banner talk 23:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Real Betis

Hello. I just wanted to ask something-- is there a clear consensus on what we should use as Real Betis's common name in info boxes and whatnot? I see a lot of players have just "Betis", but in the opening sentence it says "Real Betis". There is a clear inconsistency. Could we try to establish a single one? Same thing for RC Celta de Vigo, there is an inconsistency. I propose using Real Betis and Celta Vigo, which are, in my opinion, the most commonly-used names for the clubs in English. Please offer your insight so we can end these inconsistencies across the Project. Thank you! Paul Vaurie (talk) 09:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's a similar issue to that of English football with the many suffixed clubs which have no ambiguity: is Blackburn sufficient, or must it be Blackburn Rovers? So for boxes it should probably use both words (or perhaps Celta de Vigo, since Racing de Santander and Sporting de Gijón seem to be preferred in boxes, maybe they should also be considered here) but the single word can be used for whatnot? Is this an instance of WP:KARLSRUHER, are Spanish clubs mentioned there? Crowsus (talk) 10:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

IP changing heights

This IP has been changing heights on players unsourced. Should they all be reverted? I looked a couple up briefly and I don't see these changed heights from googling them. RedPatch (talk) 11:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, revert. These types of edits happen quite regularly. No explanation given? No qualms about undoing. Seasider53 (talk) 12:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]