Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Music

WP:DSMUSIC

This is a collection of discussions on the deletion of articles related to Music. It is one of many deletion lists coordinated by WikiProject Deletion sorting. Anyone can help maintain the list on this page.

Adding a new AfD discussion

Adding an AfD to this page does not add it to the main page at WP:AFD. Similarly, removing an AfD from this page does not remove it from the main page at WP:AFD. If you want to nominate an article for deletion, go through the process on that page before adding it to this page. To add a discussion to this page, follow these steps:

Edit this page and add {{Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/PageName}} to the top of the list. Replace "PageName" with the relevant article name, i.e. the one on the existing AFD discussion. Also, indicate the title of the article in the edit summary as it is particularly helpful to add a link to the article in the edit summary. When you save the page, the discussion will automatically appear.
You should also tag the AfD by adding {{subst:delsort|Music|~~~~}} to it, which will inform editors that it has been listed here. You may place this tag above or below the nomination statement or at the end of the discussion thread.

There are a few scripts and tools that can make this easier.

Removing a closed AfD discussion

Closed AfD discussions are automatically removed by a bot.

Other types of discussions

You can also add and remove other discussions (prod, CfD, TfD etc.) related to Music. For the other XfD's, the process is the same as AfD (except {{Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/PageName}} is used for MFD and {{transclude xfd}} for the rest). For PRODs, adding a link with {{prodded}} will suffice.

Further information

For further information see Wikipedia's deletion policy and WP:AfD for general information about Articles for Deletion, including a list of article deletions sorted by day of nomination.

Archived discussions (starting from September 2007) may be found at:

Purge page cache

watch

Related deletion sorting

Music

Sag & Tre

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Record labels are notoriously difficult; often the case the artists and the music are notable, and sourcing notability for the label is more tricky. In this case, neither the music nor the artists appear notable, yet we have a page for the label. In a WP:BEFORE I am unable to find sufficient coverage of this record label to meet WP:GNG, and that is before going anywhere near WP:NORG. I'd be happy to be proven wrong - but deletion is now proposed as Sag & Tre does not appear to meet any WP criteria for a standalone page. ResonantDis_tortion 20:07, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Music, Organizations, United Kingdom, and England. ResonantDis_tortion 20:07, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine, I think the article meets WP:GNG but nowhere near WP:NORG, nor does it need to meet WP:NORG. Resources for the label are scarce. Soybean46 (talk) 22:22, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I am the owner of Sag & Tre :) Soybean46 (talk) 22:28, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 00:05, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

List of South Korean artists live performances in Indonesia

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I don't believe this passes WP:NLIST, as none of the sources discuss this topic in a group. However, it is possible that Indonesian or Korean sources exist that could prove me wrong given that my only language is English. -1ctinus📝🗨 15:25, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, non-notable and undesirable cross-categorization. Wikipedia is not Setlist.fm. I vaguely remember a similar list being deleted. Geschichte (talk) 15:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Lists of people, Music, Indonesia, and South Korea. Shellwood (talk) 17:06, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Not only not a defining and catalogable characteristic (you'd think there were artists from that country performing before 2017), but defined by the company managing each group, which is not something a general reader knows or cares about. Nate • (chatter) 19:30, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
""Keep"" The list of Korean artists that have performed in Indonesia must be in the dedicated article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mynameisaliffathi (talk • contribs) 05:39, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Roma Sztárparádé

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Fails WP:GNG and WP:NALBUM. Could not find any other sources other than routine coverage/listings for the recording. Grumpylawnchair (talk) 22:06, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Music and Hungary. Grumpylawnchair (talk) 22:06, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Divine Lust

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I find no evidence that this musical ever came to fruition, let alone that it ran on Broadway. Zero coverage in reliable sources. Fails WP:GNG. --Kinu ^t/_c 19:59, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Theatre-related deletion discussions. --Kinu ^t/_c 19:59, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 20:02, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. It was supposed to premiere at the Stella Adler Theater in Los Angeles, a 99-seat house. There is little indication that it did, and the theater's website "history" page has a 2010 paragraph that lists productions but does NOT list "Divine Lust". But even if it did run there or anywhere, it got exactly no press coverage or critical attention of any kind. -- Ssilvers (talk) 20:54, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

GobbleHoof

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

The article has merely 2 sentences (for the past 10 years). Not enough reliable, verifiable, independent sources providing enough information to write a reasonably detailed article on the subject. The article seems highly unlikely to grow beyond a stub per WP:PERMASTUB. Rainydaywindows (talk) 06:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Music, and Massachusetts. Rainydaywindows (talk) 06:17, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Meets WP:NBAND bullet 5, having released two albums on New Alliance Records which has an article which shows that they had like 20 blue-linked bands on the label, including Hüsker Dü. I guess that makes them "one of the more important indie labels" which is what WP:NBAND wants. (Info from Discogs.

Also meets WP:GNG which wants two sources that are somewhere north of a passing mention in a single sentence (how far north it doesn't say). Here is bit in Trouser Press which has an article and which even I've heard of, with a full paragraph. Refs indicate that Spin (magazine), famous magazine, is claimed to have some material on the band (Jan 1993 - Page 36 Vol. 8, No. 10)) -- can't tell how much but at least a full sentence, probably more. There is your GNG right there, and to round it out there's a passing mention in The Encyclopedia of Popular Music, and an Italian book ("The Night Elvis Came Out of the Grave"), and another book (" I Found My Friends: The Oral History of Nirvana"). They really just barely pass WP:GNG so it's debatable, but that's just the refs from the article, there might be more out there, and anyway they pass WP:NBAND also. (The article itself is not super great yet but there's enough there to make an acceptable article, couple paragraphs.) Herostratus (talk) 18:47, 30 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Herostratus. I'm just not seeing enough material from which to develop a "reasonably detailed article" – it seems like a classic WP:PERMASTUB. The article has been around for 10 years and hasn't grown beyond a couple of sentences. Even if we could grow it to a couple of paragraphs, I'm not seeing how the article would ever grow beyond a stub short of adding puffery, padding, and undue weight. With borderline notability at best, I'm struggling to see a case to keep it. Rainydaywindows (talk) 05:44, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I get you. Yes its marginal. However, I don't think that couple of good-sized paragraphs is a stub; it's just a short article. We have lots of articles that short. It's kind of a judgement/opinion call. I'm saying keep because 1) they do squeak past NBAND, 2) it could be expanded to (my view of) a reasonable size, and 3) it's already made and not hurting anyone, so why bother to delete it. OTOH it's getting only two views a day which over the years will probably drop even lower....

I'm too tired/lazy to edit the article, but we have got a "Between crazy sick blues and hardcore, the baritone voice of Charlie Nakajima, the singer of the group, stands out. With the single "Headbanger," released the following year, Gobble Hoof offers, in the title track and in Shotgun, strange visions of splatter..." [maybe there's more] and " ...Gobblehoof — This band is in a constant battle with demons and I am interested in following its struggle to see who will come out on top..." [maybe there's more, and that is SPIN] and it's got a blulinked member (J Mascis) who was also in the notable Dinosaur Jr, but OTOH GobbleHoof isn't mentioned in Mascis' article... you've got "...Far less ponderous than it might seem on paper, GobbleHoof butts heads like a dark-hearted metal band, but never... [maybe there's more] and a couple passing mentions... Blulinked Tim Aaron was in the band, and there's a link to this article, which if deleted would go black... I dunno. All in all, my view is that it just squeezes over the bar. Herostratus (talk) 08:10, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@Herostratus I have identified and added several independent critical reviews of the band's music - please have a look - because it's starting to look like a more solid keep. ResonantDis_tortion 10:40, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

OK thanks. Somebody should WP:HEY these things in, but let George do it lol. Herostratus (talk) 19:46, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning towards Keep. Further to the above - I have added citations to the article with non-trivial secondary coverage of the band's work. This includes that notable musician J Mascis played drums on the bands debut EP. I have also identified that Metal Hammer reviewed Freezerburn, but I am unable to source the actual article (see [1]). Sufficient here to build a start class article in my view - and also evidence to presume offline sources do exist. ResonantDis_tortion 11:32, 31 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as the article now has a number of additional references to reliable sources coverage in multiple publications so that together there is enough coverage for a pass of WP:GNG in my view, Atlantic306 (talk) 21:25, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

List of music and dance anime

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I'm not an expert with the Anime WP, but the term "music and dance anime" seems not to satisfy WP:NLIST: it's not a specific category on the wiki, the self-imposed criteria of not contain[ing] strictly idol anime, OVAs and ONAs but may contain anime that use idol setting or themes as part of a bigger plot would seem to be so vague and indefinite as to make the list difficult to populate or understand what makes an entry eligible. There is also no sourcing to support list entries. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 02:44, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Anime and manga-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 03:30, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep but rename to List of musical anime I'll try to fix and redefine it. WP:TNT is also an option . Warm Regards, Miminity (Talk?) (me contribs) 07:10, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With respect, the two options you've presented are polar opposites. Just clarifying - do you think the list as currently drafted can satisfy WP:NLIST? ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 07:36, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Dance, Music, and Lists. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 07:29, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"the self-imposed criteria of not contain[ing] strictly idol anime, OVAs and ONAs but may contain...", the autor of the article here, is because there already is a list of idol anime and manga so there is no need to duplicate things. Also majority of people are not into both, they are either into idol things or are not. You could divide music anime/manga genres into two broad subgenres: idol subgenre and non-idol subgenre. There are examples for "not strictly idol, but uses idol setting as part of a bigger plot": Heroines Run the Show: The Unpopular Girl and the Secret Task. A girl works for an idol and in idol setting but the story is not about being an idol or becoming an idol. The other is Key the Metal Idol. Also in idol setting but there is a conspiracy behind the curtain and existential crisis of a robot - now compare it to run of the mill idol stories like Pretty Rhythm or D4DJ. There is also anime like Samurai Jam -Bakumatsu Rock-, Hypnosis Mic: Division Rap Battle Rhyme Anima and Paradox Live the Animation for which you could say are idol stories because of the characters but the story is not about being an idol. I don't think it's vague. It's just a question of is there a story about sth other than being (becoming) an idol in the story.
You stated "Inexplicably it also looks like the list contains manga as well." It does NOT. You should't misguide people and not provide examples. Everything on the list is/has an anime/OVA/ONA, but the "problem" is that not many anime have their own articles or (anime-)links redirect to a manga page. It would be ridiculous to expect than a 1 ep OVA has an article. I tried to have as many blue links as posssible so it's possible there are links to a manga but it DOES have anime/OVA/ONA.
There is "dance" in the name of the article because there are anime that revolve around dance, rather than just singing and playing instruments, namely Hula Fulla Dance, Brave Beats and Tribe Cool Crew.
"no sourcing" - not sth that cannot be done after the fact and there is a reason for that. not justification, but for majority of entries there is a blue link to the main article that has all the sourcing you can get so it's not sth I pulled out of my ass. I choose not to source, primarily, because I knew there were bound to be dense people, I was right, and there is likelihood for the article to be deleted, so potentially not to lose extra time I made that decision. A list like this, and this is quite a comprehensive list, takes quite a bit of time to make, more than you could guess. Setenzatsu.2 (talk) 23:45, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I have omitted the misleading statement in the nomination. I appreciate the time it's taken to create this. WP:NLIST and WP:SALAT is a concern because the list is manually assembled and has an unclear scope. When looking at pages like List of idol anime and manga you can see there's a sourced background and exploration of its scope. Without that here, it's hard to reliably figure out what qualifies an entry for the list other than loosely having a music and/or dance focus. The idol point is a concern because it would be quite WP:ARBITRARY to consider what goes in and out of this article based on an editor's subjective assessment of how much the anime involves an idol plot. That's why external sourcing about this as a clear genre or category is important. Others may consider that this is a very clear and established genre category and if so that's ok and all that needs to be done is better support this in the article. ＶＲＸＣＥＳ (talk) 00:47, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per Miminity. Georgethedragonslayer (talk) 09:23, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting. User:Setenzatsu.2, I take it that your comment is a vote to "Keep" this article? Also, an AFD can not close with an outcome of "Rename" as that is an editing decision. If that is what you want to happen. then vote to Keep this article and then a potential rename discussion can occur.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:20, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Araba 2004

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Does not meet WP:NSINGLE. Unreferenced. -Samoht27 (talk) 05:00, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Albums and songs and Music. -Samoht27 (talk) 05:00, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep: Appears to satisfy WP:GNG as the music video was a subject of scholarly analysis by multiple authors: [2] [3]. I can't find anything beyond these two authors though. The two authors both appear in the first source, but I don't think it stops the sources from being independent of each other. Helpful Raccoon (talk) 09:04, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:41, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Merge with Mustafa Sandal or Mustafa Sandal discography: not convinced a separate article is necessary Rainydaywindows (talk) 07:06, 29 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 05:37, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Bobo Ajudua

AfDs for this article:

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

One major problem is that this creation is likely a paid contribution that is undisclosed. The citations are evaluated based on this version as follows;

Citation 1 is a paid promotional puff and also a falsehood, especially when it said Ajudua’s impact is particularly evident in his work with Davido. He played a key role as a co-writer for “NA MONEY,” a track from Davido’s Timeless album that features The Cavemen and Angelique Kidjo. There is, as a matter of fact, no credit on anyone such as Bobo Ajudua if you check any of your streaming platforms for the single "Na Money" by Davido, and this alone is ridiculous and makes this whole thing iffy.

Citation 2 does is not only a paid puff but does not provide the substantial coverage we require to pass WP:GNG.

Citation 3 is not only an unreliable source, it lacks a byline and, even if it does have a byline, does not provide the substantial coverage required to satisfy WP:GNG.

Citation 4 is not only a run of the mill piece, it lacks a byline and fails WP:SIGCOV.

Citation 5 from marginally reliable Vanguard does nothing but promotes and praises the subject such that only one or two useful information is passed. Take a look at the ridiculous line breaks while scrolling through the piece.

Citation 6 is just like Citation 5 above, does nothing but praises the subject ridiculously such the nothing notable is passes as an information. Over the years, he has cultivated a reputation for his thorough understanding of corporate law, intellectual property, and entertainment law. His expertise ensures that artists, creatives, and brands are not only legally protected but also strategically positioned for sustainable growth. What is the job of an entertainment lawyer? How is this anybody's business? What's notable about ensuring his clients are strategically positioned for sustainable growth?

Citation 7 is yet another paid puff about his brands that are doing nothing but their job, and in this context, lacks the substantial coverage required to satisfy WP:GNG for this subject.

People get sacked from their jobs everyday, what is notable about the subject being sacked?

What is Wikipedia's business with whether the father attended the subject's wedding or not?

Every other source I skipped are just as bad as the ones I already evaluated. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 10:10, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: People, Music, Entertainment, Law, and Nigeria. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 10:10, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Subject hasn't suddenly become notable since the last time this was discussed. --Richard Yin (talk) 10:29, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Striking my vote since the reliability of Nigerian news outlets, which have covered the subject in some depth, is subject to an ongoing discussion in which I don't have an opinion. --Richard Yin (talk) 12:22, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Most of the sources here are used to verify informations and not as a means of promotion. There are sources which you have discarded simply because they were worded in a way that you do not like and I wonder when Wikipedia started dictating the tone of sources as I am fully aware that sources are allowed to be biased if they are reliable. The mix up in the PM News articles can be corrected with a simple mail to the editor (as it is standard procedure) and not my fault that the mix up occurred. I’ll present atleast three sources plus the fact that “Hmmm” which is a single in a Grammy nominated album "11:11 (Chris Brown album)" was co-written by Ajudua. This information was definitely not available in the last discussion. Ahola .O (talk) 18:06, 26 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia started dictating the tone of sources! since Wikipedia:Neutral point of view existed and plus this is not the place for trivia and gossip (see WP:NOTGOSSIP), like really, why would we care whether the father attended the subject's wedding or not.

This is a biographies of a living person, so we need to be even more careful when it comes to writing and sourcing. FuzzyMagma (talk) 11:10, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:YESPOV shows that articles could be non-neutral and our responsibility as editors is to present these views as neutral as possible. When it comes to being biased, I believe articles can be biased too per WP:RSBIAS; unless I’m interpreting the policies wrong.

The article about the father being absent is a celebrity article but I used it because it gives context into the married. Ahola .O (talk) 12:02, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are, in fact, misunderstanding and misinterpreting them. I couldn’t even comprehend what your view of NPOV and reliable sourcing is. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 12:18, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What do you not understand? Every source must not follow Wikipedia’s policies as each outlets has its own style of writing. Again, I ask, are we dictating that the tone of sources even when they have bylines are no evidence that they were sponsored? I think you are the one who does not understand WP:NPOV here. Also, if there are promotionals tone that I must have mistakenly added, is deletion the avenue for it? Ahola .O (talk) 12:25, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 08:33, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Sources show that the subject is notable.:

Jonahakuso (talk) 06:08, 28 December 2024 (UTC)— Jonahakuso (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Keep. There are sources that were not available in the last discussions. This one from PM News was published in April, 2023; this from Nigerian Tribune where they called him a pioneer] was published in 2022 and contrary to Vanderwaalforces that this is just passing mentions, this has some information on him; this from TheNEWS has an in-depth coverage on his company(ies). was published in July 2023; this from The Guardian was published in November 2023; this from Daily Times was published in 2024; This from Vanguard (which has been labelled a marginal reliable) has a byline and can be used to establish some notability. I believe that these sources meet the WP:GNG because 1) they are independent of the subject 2) has indepth coverage 3) are reliable 4) has demonstrated independent coverage. If anyone thinks otherwise, I would change my mind if there are evidence and not just there words ie some citations.

Ajudua is a co-writer of a Grammy nominated album 11:11 which meets WP:NCOMPOSER #1 and #4. This information is verifiable on every music streaming platform. Ahola .O (talk) 15:50, 27 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that most of these sources taken together can arguably count as in-depth coverage, but I'd also like to note here that the reliability of most Nigerian news outlets is the subject of an ongoing discussion above my pay grade. I'll strike my vote above since I don't have an opinion on the reliability of these sources.

I will point out though that the subject is not co-writer of a Grammy-nominated album, he is co-writer of one track on a Grammy-nominated album. Most of the co-writers listed in 11:11 (Chris Brown album) don't have articles. --Richard Yin (talk) 12:21, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sources I had shown above shows that the Ajudua has coverages since 2022 or thereabout and I am sure that an extensive search will definitely show more.

I am not basing the notability here with just the single track. I am showing that amongst the sources that they meet a criteria there also, atleast #1. Ahola .O (talk) 14:06, 28 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Beeblebrox ^Beebletalks 23:13, 2 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Echoing my last !vote, nothing has changed since November when we last visited with an AFD about this person. I don't see notability based on the sources, which, as explained, are all puff or PR items. Oaktree b (talk) 00:59, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per Oaktree b above. The new sources mentioned above appear to be simply fresh paid puff pieces and interviews, and being fired by a celebrity client is at best WP:BLP1E. His involvement in notable projects has been minor: for example, as noted above he co-wrote one song on an album nominated for a Grammy. None of this quite brings it over the line for WP:BIO. Wikishovel (talk) 19:30, 3 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. This article and its sources fail to meet WP:BASIC in my opinion. Source 2 is an opinion, says so in the title. Source 3 does not exist. Source 5 sounds like ChatGPT; "Rather than simply promoting a product, he crafts strategic partnerships that align with the brand’s long-term goals." Source 6 seems to simply copy and paste the existing information in the WP article in question. The creator of this article seems to have some type of conflict (monetary or otherwise) as evidenced on his talk page, especially because this article has been in AfD before. All of this smells really bad to me hence my vote to delete promptly. Mamani1990 (talk) 02:48, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Clearly not notable per WP:GNG; representing celebrities doesn't necessarily suit well or aims that he/she may be notable. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 12:30, 4 January 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Music Proposed deletions

Real Magic TV (via WP:PROD on 7 November 2024)