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Re: Smells Like Teen Spirit move

Hi Wesley, I agree it looks better capitalised. But I'm merely going with what the manual of style says. Other articles like A Girl like Me and A Woman like Me were moved for the same reason. "Like" is only capitalised if it's used as a verb (e.g. I Like the Way (You Move)). Maybe a new proposal about this can be made on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (capitalization)? Spellcast (talk) 07:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Reverted the move. CloudNine (talk) 11:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Is this a British/US thing? I'm sure over here we capitalise all the words in a title. So, I get article titles like "Kylie Said to Jason" and although I'm used to it by now it still seems wrong... --kingboyk (talk) 00:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Joy Division

Congratulations on this FA, and many future FAs. I look forward to seeing some future great work from Ceoil and yourself. LuciferMorgan (talk) 19:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC) Congrats :). R.E.M.'s looking great too. And Happy New Year's on Coordinated Universal Time! --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 01:45, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, yeah. That's why I gave the time zone I did. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 01:54, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I was only aware of the promotion as I have Wikipedia:Goings-on in my watchlist. Yeah, I did notice the R.E.M. FAC - while I can't say I got the albums etc., I think they've released some great singles. Good luck with those aforementioned future FACs, which should be interesting. I'm working on Running Free, in my own time (therefore slower than most editors), to GA status - since I can't find much reception on it, I wouldn't be able to take it to FAC. Otherwise, there's plenty of info (mainly from two books). LuciferMorgan (talk) 01:55, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, I couldn't tell at all that it had been promoted when I was visiting here (nothing in the FAC edit history). Nor did I know that Sandy can now promote articles. Learnt something new this year already then! :) Congrats on the FA! --kingboyk (talk) 02:05, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Happy real New Year's! --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 08:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure, yeah. I'm watching Superbad and I've got my laptop, so I'll be up a little while. I can track down some basic chart info for Definitely Maybe. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 08:50, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Should we keep the Singles chart section? I noticed there isn't one in Be Here Now. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 09:44, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Be amazed. Bearing in mind my 'admiration' for HD. HA HA HA. Also this is a little special. Ceoil (talk) 01:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Was thinking of Carly Simon. First she was hot then she was not but the RH version is still difinite. Ceoil (talk) 01:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
One of my favorite songs of all time is going back to harlem. Great cover there. Not wanting to ruin my reputation, but hot? the corrs? God bless thoes lovely girls. Ceoil (talk) 02:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I wish I'd been around for the Pumpkins in their prime. This just can't make up for that. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 05:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/R.E.M. (band)

"Is it better than The KLF?" Is that a compliment? :)

It certainly ought to be better, not least because REM are far more notable and (probably) more important, but also because great articles ought to spawn even better articles...

Anyway: I've had a glance at the article and it certainly looks top notch. I hope - but won't promise - to look at it more thoroughly and comment on the FAC. Good luck and thanks for namechecking our article. --kingboyk (talk) 01:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC) P.S. I just noticed that R.E.M. redirects to REM, a dab page. If I were you, I'd be bold and move the band article into that slot and add a dab header...

I saw this and decided to follow your advice and be BOLD : ) - Feel free to revert if unwanted. - jc37 02:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Messed up?

It screwed up, did it not? xihix(talk) 04:42, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Take off the newsletter above this section, I tried it on my talk page and it worked. xihix(talk) 04:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative music December 2007 Newsletter

The Alternative music WikiProject Newsletter
Issue 9 - December 2007
"He didn't really talk until he got his girlfriend, and somehow that jump-started his ego, and he went from 'I am Lou, I am nothing' to 'I am the greatest.' He just went ffffft, just flipped the scales. And then he started talking a lot. And then I was realizing from a lot of the things he was saying, 'Hmmm, maybe I don't like Lou.'"- J Mascis
Project news
New members

Pjoef, WeBuriedOurSecretsInTheGarden, Argezas, Pbroks13 and Paper Back Writer 23 joined the alternative music fold during December.

Editors

User:CloudNine
User:WesleyDodds


You are receiving this newsletter because you have signed up for WikiProject Alternative music. If you wish to stop receiving this newsletter, or would like to receive it in a different form, add your name to the appropriate section here. This newsletter was delivered by the automated xihix(talk) 04:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC) .

Sinestro Corps War

I had been thinking about adding hard data, but I was worried about crossing the line between that and OR. Any suggestions on how to do that? And I agree that the plot section's way too long but I haven't had a chance to go through and prune it yet. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 07:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Metallica

I will be nominating Metallica for FA following the second peer review. Just thought I'd let you know. M3tal H3ad (talk) 06:41, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, i guess that would prove very useful for the style section. Otherwise i don't know what else can be added and congrats on your FA. M3tal H3ad (talk) 06:51, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Barbara Gordon

I've taken care of most of the issues you brought up in the FAC. I took a look at your edits a Jason Todd and I condensed both quotes to the bare minimum so that they specifically talk about Barbara Gordon. The final section is Critical and Editorial commentary. I'm not sure how to make it more encyclopedic. The section does deal heavily with the character's mobility, and that is, the entire point. As pointed out in the article, people have been lobbying for her mobility to be restored since The Killing Joke, while other have praised her as a disabled icon. It is the biggest controversy in the characters history. Would you list a few suggestions at FAC or on my talk page? Thankyou! Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 22:49, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Alice in Chains

 Done I re-wrote the section. I didn't get rid of any information, but I moved stuff around for better flow. I also got rid of the Historyofrock link. Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 19:15, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Non-English alt-rock

Re:

I just found this New York Times article while trying to search for material on Primal Scream. Do you think it could be worked into the alternative rock article?

Good article (sorry it took me so long to get around to checking it out). In answer to your question, I'd say definitely yes, in two ways:

(1) We can use it to name Los Dynamite ("one of the city’s leading indie acts"); the scene-transforming 2004 introduction of Reactor ("a taste-making, state-supported radio station"); maybe the act Mexican Institute of Sound ("His 2006 debut, Méjico Máxico, became a cult favorite in American electronic music circles last year"); and maybe the labels Noiselab and Nuevos Ricos.

(2) We can paraphrase (while citing) its general thesis which seems broadly applicable to the whole Alternative rock in other countries section or perhaps even the end of the Overview section:

Thanks mostly to the downloadable avalanche of globalization and the rise of MySpace the current independent rock scene is full of artists who may be from Mexico City but sound as if they could be from New York, Stockholm or Paris.... The shift speaks volumes about how digital technologies and social networking sites are altering the character of independent music scenes across the world. Once defined by the built-in limits of nationally based industries, indie bands everywhere now have unprecedented access to global influences and global exposure.

If I come across anything useful like this, I'll be sure to let you know. Best, Dan.—DCGeist (talk) 08:54, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Jane's Addiction

Hey. Just wondering, would you recommend getting a copy of that Jane's Addiction oral biography? I'm looking for a new music book to read through (since I left Our Band back at home), and I'd like to improve the JA articles in the future. CloudNine (talk) 00:19, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Ned

I wouldn't go as far as to say give a damn about them, but I am aware of their existence. They aren't half-bad though. Good lookin' out. Grim (talk) 01:21, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

r.e.m.

The opening para in the lead is slightly listly. I'd chart their build up in more general terms, without mentioning specific albums. Nice work on nightswimming; I hadn't known it was released as a single, and that it performed poorly, chart wise. Ceoil (talk) 10:56, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Franz Ferdinand

I know we disagree about the genre of this band. Allmusic lists them simply as Rock. Should we compromise and list them as that instead? Otherwise this imay end up going back and forward until we wear our keyboards out.

On another note: You've put in a lot of good work maintaining the state of the Franz Ferdinand (band) page. You may be interested in a dispute about the Franz Ferdinand page. It used to point to the disambiguation page - as, despite there being more searches for the band than the archduke, users will be interested in both topics. Unfortunately, it has recently been changing to point directly to the archduke page. Could you read the discussion on the Talk:Franz Ferdinand page? I think your input would be of value. Thanks, Wardroad (talk) 15:19, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Stuff

I don't think there's anything else I'm concerned with over at R.E.M. There is, however, something else I do want to talk to you about: Red Hot Chili Peppers. For the past few months I've been thinking the band should be a Top-importance article at WP:ALM. Especially considering Radiohead and the disputed U2 are in that boat. The Chili Peppers are one of the few surviving alternative rock artists from the 90s and are more popular now-a-days than they have ever been. Still, it's your choice. NSR77 TC 20:28, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the Cure is one of those significant bands that has been cited as an influence by the majority of alt-rock artists. If they hadn't been, then I doubt they'd barely be mid-importance; the fact that they're such a driving force, influentially, says something. Although I may be biased in saying this because I don't particularly like Pearl Jam, but the band was only successful because of Nirvana. It's really weird; I could never figure out what made them so popular or special. A lot of the bands in the top-importance category I agree with: R.E.M. is one of the most pivotal artists of the late 80s/early 90s; without Nirvana the entire "gen-x" movement probably wouldn't have happened. Oasis and Radiohead I just flat out don't like, so I obviously can't give my opinion without first telling myself that. The Smiths are another equally important band, but only in terms of influences. They set the standard, in some ways. I thought, at one point, several of us were discussing whether or not U2 was even alternative rock in the first place, let alone top-importance. The Smashing Pumpkins, while being one of my favorite bands, weren't ultimately that successful and had about five minutes of fame in the world of pop music. They're obviously a definitive "alternative" band, though. Your hierarchy is something I've noticed, and agree with. Most articles pertaining to the Chili Peppers aren't even tagged by the ALM WP so most of it wouldn't be an issue. In terms of albums, only six are tagged (from Mother's Milk to Stadium Arcadium). If the article was eventually put in the top-importance category I assume that only Frusciante would be upped to high-importance. Right now the top-importance section is rather small and could use with some additions. Again, it's your choice to make. NSR77 TC 01:24, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Not sure if you've noticed but Noel Gallagher was put up for GAN. It is extremely far away from being passed. The entire section where he disses half of the music world is trivial and not encyclopedic. It should be condensed into about a paragraph. The article itself is overwhelming and massive to say the least (not in a good way, either). There's also a bunch of unverified information. NSR77 TC 20:15, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey, Flea is completely finished. I was just curious to see if you wouldn't mind giving it a run-through. NSR77 TC 17:23, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I've toyed with that idea but ultimately decided against it. Flea's acting career consists of little more than walk-ons. I did overlook his voice over role, though. On a different subject, U2 is now up at FAC. Since it's going to become an FA within due time (although I haven't read the article the FAC comments appear to be supportive), we should probably have a discussion over at WT:ALM to finally come to a consensus as to whether or not the band is alternative rock. NSR77 TC 00:11, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Let me know if there's anything else you can see is missing. After a while everything becomes too familiar, if you know what I mean. NSR77 TC 00:27, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I actually have a couple of paragraphs saved in a Microsoft Word document that I wrote around the holidays and will eventually become "Under the Bridge". I've been busy with Flea lately so the document has remained untouched for a few weeks. I'm still debating what will be my next project as Red Hot Chili Peppers, Stadium Arcadium and "Under the Bridge" are all likely candidates. Obviously RHCP would probably require more work than the latter two combined; that's been my only hesitation in starting the project. As for copy and pasting, that sounds like a pretty good idea. I stumbled upon a few things that were relevant to Blood Sugar whilst investigating Flea, so I added some information a little while ago (including a quote of Frusciante on "Under the Bridge"). I'm just curious, since it's always impossible to guess with you: what do you foresee your next project being? NSR77 TC 02:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I got into R.E.M. last month after not touching their stuff for almost a year. I had gone through a crazy R.E.M. phase that lasted almost three months and involved me listening to them for hours on end. I had to walk away, after that. Reminds me of the recent one I had with the Pumpkins, though to a lesser extent. As per usual my favorite effort from R.E.M. is Murmur; it's fantastic. "Pilgrimage" is by far their best song, in my opinion. I'd be really willing to help with In Utero if you guys were to wait a few months. I have access to several book written on the band (probably not as many as you, though). A non-Chili Peppers based project would be a nice breath of fresh air, especially when the article involves one of my favorite albums. On another note, I picked up Radiohead's In Rainbows the other day and was really disappointed. Amnesiac is much better. Although I really do not like them, their music is pretty good (weird ideology, yes). NSR77 TC 02:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I had a similar idea the other day. That would be really interesting if three of the pinnacle alternative songs that define the genre were featured. The writing and composition of "Under the Bridge" is relatively straightforward. The only difficulty I could ever see is when writing a 'Live' section since they've performed a ton of variations since '91. Thankfully it's not a song they jam during, before or after (unlike "Give it Away", which has gone on for over 15 minutes). "Jeremy" and "Black Hole Sun" might be worth a GA at least. NSR77 TC 02:39, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The Cure, with some work, could be upped to FA. There are a lot of large paragraphs that have only one or two sources. I'm not as familiar with the references as you are, but there may be some that cover more than listed. As I said before, In Utero is something I'd be really interested in working on. If we were to go for the "big three" in alt rock songs, I'd leave you with "Losing My Religion" since I don't like much of Out of Time. Mellon Collie might be interesting to write about. Sometimes the Pumpkins history gets me annoyed (Billy's megalomaniacal antics, especially). What do you picture? NSR77 TC 02:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Reckoning, if I had to categorize this, is my second favorite R.E.M. album. Their best work has always been pre-Green. It's technically feasible to make every single RHCP related article an FA with all the references I have, but truthfully speaking it's impossible. Depending on which rout you're taking I'll either work on "Under the Bridge" or RHCP. NSR77 TC 03:18, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
AOL Music named that song #1 on their list of "Top Wussiest Songs Of All Time". Haha. NSR77 TC 03:33, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Sure. It just depends what's out there on the internet. I found this and this after a quick look. Let me know if you had something else in mind. I put Niandra Lades and Usually Just a T-Shirt up at FAC; comment if you could (there's not too much you have to read). NSR77 TC 04:22, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Have you seen [this? If anything on Wikipedia were ever cracked-out, it would be that. On a random note: this is awesome. I love how much the video epitomizes the 80's; poofy hair, form-fitting suits with matching gloves. Plus Robert Smith is wearing some sort of sweat band tied in a delicate bow. NSR77 TC 21:54, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to do the same for the recent Powderfinger article; the block quotes don't do anything at all and that list section is pretty irrelevant/unencyclopedic, whatever. Raul does have a tendency to promote articles of today’s cultural relevance (Radiohead, U2) rather quickly. Anodyne and "Monkey Gone to Heaven" are both equally ready. In fact I think the process should work the other way, since there could theoretically be dozens of reviewers out there who may be slowly compiling a list of comments on a large article. R.E.M. went through a far more thorough FAC for a lot longer and still hasn't been promoted. Not sure what he's waiting for. I left what will hopefully be the final comment over the Nirvana redirects. NSR77 TC 04:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
This is a classic case of WP:IGNORE. It is pretty strange that this seems to happen to Nirvana only. Several other high profile bands have had this transformation. Time and time again it appears that Nirvana has an extremely loyal..."fanbase". I've been thinking of starting a discussion at the alternative music project to finally put the issue of U2's genre to rest. Since it's an FA now, it will appear on the FA wall. I'm not particularly keen on the idea of having a band with disputed genres printed on the front of a genre specific Wikiproject. NSR77 TC 04:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I'd prefer to stay out of a peer review because they can be pretty worthless and a major waste of time/edits/storage space. It'd be great if you could post any comments on my talk page; but, keep in mind that I've been really busy these past few days and haven't had the time to give the article a good copyedit. NSR77 TC 00:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Alright then. I didn't realize that was a promise. Here it is! NSR77 TC 01:03, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Gosh, the Soup Dragons were terrible. The three songs are still popular today ("Alive" to a lesser extent). I'm really surprised they used "Give It Away" instead of "Under the Bridge". It must have been before they released the video. NSR77 TC 20:36, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Hey Wesley, I think you should add a picture of R.E.M. to the article. You don't see anyone but Stipe's face and it's been bugging me for a while. If you want I'll do it. NSR77 TC 17:08, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
They don't need to be free. Were you looking for images of Flea's involvement in movies or something else? The screenshots I could recover were tiny, blurry and really dark so I didn't include them. NSR77 TC 00:44, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, my bad, I forgot I had asked you that question above. I'll look for some. They don't need to be free; many of the ones over at The Smashing Pumpkins are not. NSR77 TC 00:57, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

You could easily upload a promo picture of the band's early lineup like this one. I'll see what I can find on the MTV awards. Somewhere along the line I want to get The Cure promoted to FA and bring Sonic Youth back up to snuff. When were you planning on doing In Utero? NSR77 TC 04:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a lot of projects coming up, unfortunately. "Under the Bridge", RHCP, Cure, Sonic Youth, help out with In Utero, etc... I'll take dibs on the Critical Reception section. Those are always my favorite to write. Which books do plan on using? I'm going to assume Azarrad's is #1. NSR77 TC 04:18, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Robert Smith looks better without makeup. Gah, the Cure added Radio City Music Hall to their New York leg so I've decided to go to that one instead of the one at Madison Square Garden. But since the former gig is sold out I'm forced to by tickets from ebay and two good seats are $600. Curse you, ticketmaster.NSR77 TC 00:44, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to outline any more concerns over at Flea's PR. NSR77 TC 01:13, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't tell you why glam rock was there. Better? NSR77 TC 02:00, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

According to the points you want satisfied for an article to be top-importance the band needs to be integral in alt. rock history. How, then, does Radiohead fit into it? If we were to remove them from the face of the earth how would alternative rock be different? I really don't think it would be different at all. NSR77 TC 02:34, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I think the reason I dislike them so much is because people put them on such a high pedestal. Critics go gaga over Radiohead and I really tried to figure out what's so special about them. Their music is OK, but nothing special. In reality they aren't that popular. They haven't had an album that's helped push alternative rock to a place it's never been. They've never even had a hit song. I just don't find them important, at all. Their music may be acclaimed by critics, but so was My Bloody Valentine. And MBV was far more influential than Radiohead will ever be. NSR77 TC 02:48, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Strangely enough I've had the same thing happen to me at least once. But in all reality In Rainbows was grossly over exaggerated. Radiohead thought they were being really indie by releasing it on their website for whatever the customer wants, but it's so scandalous that people can't help but go to the site. Sneaky little pricks. NSR77 TC 02:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, but "Creep" only peaked in the 30s on the BBH100. That isn't a fantastic career achievement. NSR77 TC 02:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I know it is...I'm just bitter. Plus I'm lobbying for the Chili Peppers. I'm not going to stop until you put them into the top importance spot. You do know "Under the Bridge" peaked four spots higher than "Smells Like Teen Spirit", right? Haha. :) NSR77 TC 03:04, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Well everyone knows 92 was alternative rock's heyday. Kind of seems like everything went downhill after that. Did you know "Hey There Delilah" was the first non-rap/R&B/pop song to hit number 1 on the Billboard Hot 100 in five (five...) years. Nickleback's "Rock star" was the one before that. What does that say about contemporary music? I shudder to think about the future. NSR77 TC 03:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

It's safe to say that R.E.M. started losing "it" post-Green. I hate to say this, but their recent material sucks. In terms of Modern Rock (I indeed know it is just a radio format, but it's the "alternative rock" chart), Red Hot Chili Peppers hold the most number 1 Modern Rock Tracks with 11. They beat both U2 and Green Day (who tie for second) by three. The Chili Peppers also have the most cumulative weeks at number one, with eighty one. That's more than thirty weeks ahead of the second place band. "Scar Tissue" alone spent 16 weeks at number 1, second in overall cumulative weeks for a single song. You started it. NSR77 TC 03:33, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Wonder if the world-famous and culturally defying Soup Dragons ever made it to number one. Favorite Cure album? NSR77 TC 04:20, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Here I was thinking you were some crazy Cure fan. :P You need to get more. NSR77 TC 04:25, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't your local Library have a music section where you can check CDs out the same way you would a book? NSR77 TC 04:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

That one was a bitch to learn. It took me several hours. The song that took me the longest to learn is still "Snow ((Hey Oh))". It's murder to the fingers. NSR77 TC 16:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone I know told me the chords and they turned out to be wrong. I was sitting there wondering "The fuck..." and then I looked online. I kept thinking to myself "It really shouldn't be taking me this long to learn this type of song but nothing sounds right." I never did ask him for chords again. Giants are losing. :( NSR77 TC 01:01, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
From 1988-1993 alternative was in it's prime. NSR77 TC 15:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I always get a kick out of this. NSR77 TC 01:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

U2 FA Candidacy

Hi fellow music lover, I just wanted to let you know that I nominated U2 for featured article candidacy. I had a PR going, but there were no comments. Also, the article looks FA-worthy right now. Just wanted to ask if you could provide your support at Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/U2, as I know you've spent a great deal of time building quality on this and other music-related articles. Many thanks. Wikipedia brown (talk) 05:49, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

REM

OK, I'll stop now and you can let me know if you want me to continue. (I didn't think "p."/"pp." was a choice when referring to multiple pages?). cheers, –Outriggr § 07:53, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

OK... The reason I started is because a) I felt inspired (haven't listened to the ol' REM in a while) b) I think I remember you saying on C's talk page that I might be useful in editing the article at some point c) my dog says hi. 'nite, –Outriggr § 08:05, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
(I think when referring to chart positions, it is better to use numerals whether or not our friendly style guide suggests it, if in fact it comments (as opposed to spelling out numbers one to nine). "Number 29 on the chart", "number 4 on the chart". Like a sports score. That's why I changed them. Sorry.) –Outriggr § 10:31, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
Two interesting links: one, two. Dont freak out dude. Ceoil (talk) 23:46, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Delayed response to your question... (few respond to me these days, so what's the rush, huh?) From my excited-to-discover-electric-guitar days I like Hendrix, Stevie Vaughan, blues classics. From my dabbling in classical, many things by JS Bach. I've been enchanted by Flaming Lips, Boards of Canada, Postal Service, Bruce Cockburn. I am kind of without a listening compass these days, having gotten all I can out of the dead musicians I like. Radio Paradise plays an awfully good mix for me. And I've reached the age where I don'teven recognize the names of the people producing pop consumables, or would ever turn on a contemporary Nickelrock/pop station again. –Outriggr § 00:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

U2 drew a lot of commentry which is why it was promoted. I wouldn't bother raising it, or worrying about REM, it will take a bit of time yet but reemmmm is a fine article. By the way, don't believe half of what Outriggr says about me. He's just a bit cranky lately. Ceoil (talk) 11:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Not very near, thankfully. That man lives in Dublin, in a fairy castle in the leafy surburbs, i'm in cork and these days go to dublin only if I need emergency specialist medical attention. Have you heard this? All the limeys and paddys are going crazy for him, in paticular 30 someting burned out and frazzeled ravers. Ceoil (talk) 11:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, nice link. Have you heard the album robert smith recorded with souxie in the mid eighties. Was never able to track it down but from all i've heard about it it sounds great. Silly bedate re redirects; thoes small stubby song article are magnets for trivia, and give the site a bad name. my passions at the moment are for deleting "see also" and "in popular culture" sections (vomit), and overlinking (christ, why link 1999, we all know what it is, and we all have heard of England.). Ceoil (talk) 12:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, the The Glove was what I was thinking of. It was more than a 'bender' though, they recorded the album in the second week of a two week acid haze. Crazy 80s guys. How great is this? Mankind desparatly needs more shoegazing fiddleplayers. Ceoil (talk) 12:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Maybe its a cork thing, but truely Five go down to the sea are the great lost band. They were a rag bad collection of later sucessful 'musicians' (including Cathal Coughlan), and did great Joy Division paradoies (withness "Why Wait Until April" (the ethernal), and "There's a Fish on Top of Shandon" (atrocity exhibition). Er, maybe thats streaching it 0-). Ceoil (talk) 12:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I think Outriggr would be pleased to be asked to help out. He's a copyeditor par excellence (just dont mention that word, the considers himself a 'prefarancer', or something). Beware though, he can be cranky, and likes to be feathered with poems and blood sacrifices for his work. Ceoil (talk) 12:53, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Don't believe all that stuff about Outriggr above. He does not sacrifice animals, and is not cranky—unless it's a bank holiday or there is a sound and solid reason. Wesleydodds I'm new here, and in the 10 minutes since I heard of teh internets have found wikipedia, got the hang of edit summaries, talk pages, AFD, and RFA, and AN/I; but can you explain pls, AGF, WP:SOCK, monobook.js, and wheather its acceptable to terrorise this Ceoil ejit. FakeCeoil (talk) 15:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Peer review/Opeth

Hello, I was wondering if you would review Opeth at Wikipedia:Peer review/Opeth, no problem if you don't. Also, I noticed you have worked on discographies, would you mind commenting on Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/Godsmack discography? Again you are not abliged to. Thank you, —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 19:53, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Nirvana Song Deletions

I've noticed that someone has gone and deleted many Nirvana song articles, for no good reason I find. I noticed that you deleted stay away and I was wondering if you were responsible for the rest. TostitosAreGross (talk) 00:42, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

How is Drain You not a song notable enough to have it's own article? The deleted article stated that the song happened to be one of cobain's favorite? --Cmcginnis (talk) 22:01, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. I've actually been using that site for guitar and bass tabs, but never realised there was a list of magazine articles at the bottom of the page. Some good stuff there, especially for a future Musical style section. ("Hate-Buddhas" - that's a new one.) CloudNine (talk) 00:35, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Could you possibly expand the third para of the lead of Hüsker Dü? I've started it, but I'm not sure how to summarise it too well. I generally like to start and finish the lead before moving onto the rest of the article? (I'm happy to work on the history section). CloudNine (talk) 11:44, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, that B-class article drive of yours was a smart idea. It's got me a lot more interested in expanding articles (I've expanded The Replacements much quicker than I expected, and I've ordered the oral history book as well.) Actually, while writing this, we could incorporate a book review (with a view to referencing) into some alt. music newsletters. What do you think? CloudNine (talk) 00:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

"Losing My Religion" UK release date

Rob Jovanovic has it as 1991-02-25. This seems more likely than the 27th; singles are generally released on Mondays in the UK. CapitalLetterBeginning (talk) 10:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Take my word for it, 25 February 1991 was a Monday :). Rob Jovanovic wrote Adventures in Hi-Fi: The Complete R.E.M., published in 2001, ISBN 0-75284-618-3. For some reason, I'd assumed it was referenced in the LMR article. Apparently not. CapitalLetterBeginning (talk) 10:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
You're referring to the Buckley biography, I take it. Why is Jovanovic's book any less valid a source? Genuine question; I'm not just trying to be difficult. CapitalLetterBeginning (talk) 10:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Ah. Does Buckley's book have the release date as well? It's just the fact that it was a Wednesday that makes me think it's likely to be a mistake. CapitalLetterBeginning (talk) 11:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
In that case, seeing as this is disputed, should we just remove the UK release date from the article for the moment? I don't think either of us is going to convince the other without at least another source. CapitalLetterBeginning (talk) 11:30, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Wilco

Hi, You removed a sentence from the Musical Style section which describes Wilco as having a "roots rock" sound. This sentence was sourced from the New York Times, a reputable source. However, you removed it on the grounds that the sentence was "Really not up to par with the rest of the section (and why is what this one critic says important?" First of all, we can't just remove sourced content based on a subjective assessment that you don't think it is "up to par with the rest of the section." Second, the sentence does not try to argue in a POV fashion that Wilco IS a roots rock band or some other contentious argument. Instead, the sentence summarizes the commentary of a New York Times critic, who argues that Wilco has a "roots rock sound". ...............................But perhaps most importantly, the Wikipedia rules which govern all of our contributions here state that you should "not revert good faith edits....unless, and only unless, you as an editor possess firm, substantive, and objective proof to the contrary. Mere disagreement is not such proof." So based on the Wikipedia rules, you must show firm, substantive, and objective proof that the added sentence is inappropriate. Since the sentence is short, directly on topic, and sourced from a respected newspaper, I argue that the sentence should be allowed.......................... By the way...here is the sentence in question:...............................................................A critic from the New York Times argues that Wilco has a "roots-rock...[sound which] reached back to proven materials: the twang of country, the steady chug of 1960's rock, the undulating sheen of the Beach Boys, the honky-tonk hymns of the Band and the melodic symmetries of pop." [1] Nazamo (talk) 18:11, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, You stated that "Inserting "roots rock"...into the musical style [section] was forced and ill-written." The section on "musical style" is going to have a variety of points of view...different music critics and music journalists are going to classify Wilco differently. Regarding your suggestion to "discussing adding such material with the article's primary editor, User:Teemu08", I am unfamiliar with this rule or protocol. Are you suggesting that Teemu08 has veto powers or control of the page? That is not my understanding of the Wikipedia rules. If the Wikipedia rules have changed, and now minor additions have to be approved by the principal editor, please show me the Wikipedia policy that states this. Thank you, though, for your comment about the unformatted references; I should fix them up.Nazamo (talk) 17:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Metallica

Thanks for your help during the PR and FAC. I wouldnt mind working on Anthrax although they recieve the least amount of media attention out of the four, so it will be hard to find the relevant information. Thanks again M3tal H3ad (talk) 03:50, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Congrats on your FA, one decade at a time eh. I'm going to work on films in the Alien series for a bit for something different. Good luck with your future projects. M3tal H3ad (talk) 03:12, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

A longer way to go

Kudos on your latest FA. Cheers! – Scartol • Tok 12:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Soundgarden

Hi WesleyDodds. The Soundgarden page has been one that I have been wanting to improve to FA quality one day for a long time, but just never really got into it to do so. I'd love to, but I'm not sure where'd I start. Like, main references, and such. I'll admit I'm not the most knowledgable person on the band, but I know a good amount of general information. Thanks! xihix(talk) 00:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll be looking at them and read a bit before I get started. Also, I recently obtained access to this huuuuuuuge database of information called Newsbank. It's a database of millions of articles online, offline, from about 20 or so magazines (sadly, no music magazines), and many, many newspapers. From newspapers around the U.S., I got around 9700 results for Soundgarden, ranging from 1987 to now It's a great source of information, but you'd need something that I can't give over IRC to access it. If you want to use it, tell me, and we can meet on IRC, on freenode. xihix(talk) 00:46, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Ah, ok. Well, if you're ever interested in using the database, just ask me. It's probably the best archive of sources, especially off line ones and ones from the pre-internet age. xihix(talk) 00:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I got over 1400 or so results, most of which is probably the song (perhaps there would be an article about someone losing their religion?). Anyway, the articles go from '91 (like 245 articles from that year) to now. I think I'll email you the stuff for it, and you respond back to me here or by email when you get it. xihix(talk) 01:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

R.E.M.

Congratulations on the well-deserved star; I hope my "fixes" didn't mess anything up :) Best, Fvasconcellos (t·c) 15:53, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Remember ridicule

What the fuck with the miami vice suit. "I could be wrong", yep you could, Lyndon. Great song though. Best bass palyers ever: Wobble, Hook, Whats His Name From Interpol With The Beard. Whats going on on Outriggr's talk page do you reckon? And he, who accussed ME of going off the deep end. That boy needs to have a serious talk with himself. Ceoil (talk) 23:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I love "This is not a love song", even though it's as camp as almighty god. Lyndon is an auld pantomime queen, all he is missing is large comedy plastic breasts. Ceoil (talk) 23:52, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
By the way what are you feelings on Guided by voices? My openion is genious songwriter, not so good human. Ceoil (talk) 23:56, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
How do you feel about reasoning with Outriggr? I realise this kind of fuckology is interesting and clever, but holy christ do we need him back editing. He is the single best copy editor I've come accross, so far; and he is such great fun. If you could shake some sence into him,that would be great. Ceoil (talk) 00:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Alien lanesAlien lanesAlien lanesAlien lanesAlien lanesAlien lanesAlien lanesAlien lanesAlien lanesAlien lanes. Ceoil (talk) 00:02, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, he is exactly the type of person I admire IRL thoughtful and sensitive to what goes on around him. Wheather or not he can excuse and get past the whole "ignorant, fakeceoil" affair, I dunno; but if he salivates at my feet for a sufficent amount of time I might - just - let him copyedit my semi-illerate prose one more time. And one more time I might offer ill informend, hasty, edits to his own articles. It was a tangled web we weaved. Ceoil (talk) 00:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
When I was a lad, my grandmother would keep me up all night, telling me she could hear the Banshee. To this day the word scares me, and I suspect its behind my love of Bacon and slash and horror flicks. The bitch. Ceoil (talk) 11:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm listening to in rainbows again and just I can see what they were going for...but they didn't get there. I think all the rave reviews were just wishful thinking. Its not 1997 anymore. Ceoil (talk) 11:54, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
If you think thats bad have you ever met an average manic streets fan. Jesus christ, they make JD fans look like shiny happy people holding hands. What projects have you coming up bty. Ceoil (talk) 12:00, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I followed the growth of Vampire through Awadewit and Casliber's involvement. Its a model article, actually its brilliant. I agree about being more active at FAC. My reviewing skills are not great, and I hate dissing effort, but still. Ceoil (talk) 12:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
The three articles I'd like to take to FAC are Bacon, Blake, and Morrissey. My 3 favourite humans but I'm intimatated by the sheer scope. Ceoil (talk) 12:14, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
And get indef blocked again? I think not!! Ceoil (talk) 12:20, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
ROFL!!!! Ha, well done WesleyDodds, that was the single funniest post I've read so far on wiki. I have no come back. You win! ;-) ;-) ;-) ;-) Ceoil (talk) 12:33, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Favourite bowie song? I'll go with China girl, with ashes to ashes as a close second. Ceoil (talk) 14:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Butting in: "Andy Warhol" or "The Width of a Circle". Everything went downhill after Aladdin Sane. But "China Girl" is wonderful. NSR77 TC 03:47, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

So

I finally heard Nowhere and thought it was pretty good. Not great, not Loveless, but alright. I also heard just New Day Rising and Different Class for the first time, both of which I liked immensely. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 04:53, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I heard Zen Arcade as well, but I liked New Day Rising better. I went on a downloading spree and just got whatever people recommended to me for the past six months. By the way: I was going my dad's old CDs and found Be Here Now; He saw me with it and said it was the worst album he'd ever heard. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 05:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Do you want to work on In Utero or Definitely Maybe? I've got a three day weekend and no homework, so I'll have much more time than I've had lately to spend on Wikipedia. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 05:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
Let's do In Utero. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 06:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I can do it. I'll get out the 33 1/3 book. --Brandt Luke Zorn (talk) 06:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Zeitgeist review and GAC

Hey Wes, have you taken a look at Zeitgeist lately? I've requested a peer review, and a few of us are convinced that it should be a GAC. Just wondering if you had any thoughts. Cheers. -- Reaper X 22:45, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Did you have any thoughts? The article is currently a GAN. -- Reaper X 05:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

superchrist and reunion/revival

hi, I'm still not sure about the superchrist part of the Smashing Pumpkins page, the website has so little information that it's basically meaningless. It's also a shame there's no online version of the Jimmy Chamberlin interview, do you you know if (a free) one exists?

I'm also not sure why you changed revival to reunion in the section title. since two of the original members didn't reunite with the band, it would be more accurate to call it a revival. Stanlavisbad (talk) 09:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)


Re: [your message]
I'm not sure I agree that there's anything malicious or POV in it. From an English language point of view, I would still say that revival is more :accurate. here are the definitions from the OED:
Revive: To return or come back to life; to regain vital activity, after being dead; to live again.
Reunite: To unite or bring together again; to join together after separation.
For me, revival is clearly a better way of describing what happened, reuniting implies that they are all coming back together again. This isn't always the case, there have been "reunions" before without the original members, but since Corgan himself used the words (as opposed to saying "reuniting") I think that's a better way to put it. Corgan "killed" the band, Corgan "revived" it. There's no reuniting involved. If Chamberlin hadn't been on board either, it wouldn't be a reunion would it, but it probably would have still happened?
I couldn't care less about Iha and Wretzky, and I know it's a bit of a petty point, but I thought it was worth making anyway.
Thanks, Stanlavisbad (talk) 21:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Revival is not a particularly difficult word to understand and as I said before, I think it's more accurate than Reunion in this instance. I would have thought that Billy Corgan's own words about his band would take precedence over the press' term. But I'll let it go, someone else can bring up the point or change it back if they're interested enough. Thanks, Stanlavisbad (talk) 07:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Re: Smells Like Teen Spirit

That is a real chart, and SLTS shows up on it. That chart is a "component chart", which is one of the three charts that combine to make the Hot 100. There is generally no reason to include it in an article, since the Hot 100 is typically already listed. If you want to keep the chart and reference it, then just use the link that you sent me here—its a reliable source. Teemu08 (talk) 17:42, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Informing past contributors of new TFD for Template:Maintained

As you were a contributor in the last TFD, I am letting you know that {{Maintained}} is again up for deletion. Please review the current version of the template and discuss it at the TFD. Thanks! — BRIAN0918 • 2008-01-30 17:47Z

Hi!

Hi! Just a question, as I've seen from the AIC FAC, you might have what I'm searching for. Do you happen to have access to older Kerrang! magazines in any form/way? I know there's rocksbackpages.com, but they don't have the one I need. I need a 1997 magazine, February if I'm not mistaken (a review of Strapping Young Lad's 1997 album, City) Gocsa (talk) 19:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Alice in Chains

Could you take another look at the article? It has improved vastly. Also could you re-comment on the FAC? —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 20:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I left a reply. —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 03:22, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I have a dumb question, what exactly is "prose"? I see that word all the time, but have no clue of what people are talking about. —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 04:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
So, the article as a whole, or just the main part? —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 04:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Hey would you mind finding a place to provide a link for my page at the WP:Alt. music page? I would like for it to remain as Metal, and alt. rock/metal. —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 04:49, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I suppose. Can't Audioslave stay? It is still a phenomenal article. —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 04:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I guess so. Please try to keep in mind, this was originally supposed to be a personal page. —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 04:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
This page is going to be cooler than I thought. If you wouldn't mind, could you add more to the people list? I have to go to bed, I have school in the morning. —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 05:01, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Please take another look. Skeletor2112 and I worked on it just this last day and I truley belive everything you wanted has been taken care of. —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 01:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Fixed. I just formated them properly. Those are one of the few sources I didn't retrieve. —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 03:45, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Have you been following the progress? —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 04:05, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Have you seen how many off line references there are now? There are tons. The article is up to 41KB! —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 04:12, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
What is left to add? Everything is covered. —Burningclean [Speak the truth!] 04:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

No reason

one, two. He's an auld dog to give him his due. Few since WWI can get away with such a quiff, and though there is no good reason for two mikes, I don't begrudge the man either of them. Ceoil (talk) 01:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Not feeling the greatest today; too much of a good thing(s). So 1, 2, 3. Ceoil (talk) 23:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Edit War

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. --Mikmik2953 (talk) 07:00, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Joker (comics)

I agree with the change to the lead sentence. I have never liked saying the character is from the DC Universe or Marvel Universe in the lead sentence, but others had established the exemplars. I think it should say something like "in publications from DC Comics" -- and I do write that in numerous articles' leads. I think it might be worth revisiting the "Universe"-in-lead standard at WikiProject Comics. Doczilla (talk) 09:04, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject Alternative music January 2008 Newsletter

The Alternative music WikiProject Newsletter
Issue 10 - January 2008
"I still have people come up to me like, 'I really, really liked your last record.' 'Oh, thanks!' 'Are you going to do "Loser" tonight?' I'm like, 'Look, I'm six foot six. Beck is five foot sex, all right?'"- Thurston Moore
Project news
New members

Skeeker, Dethzone, Sceptre, IN THE EFFIGY, Crislee 88, Grrrlriot and Indopug joined the alternative music fold during January.

Editors

User:WesleyDodds


You are receiving this newsletter because you have signed up for WikiProject Alternative music. If you wish to stop receiving this newsletter, or would like to receive it in a different form, add your name to the appropriate section here. This newsletter was delivered by the automated xihix(talk) 00:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC) .

Dookie

Thats pretty interesting, about the high school thing. But, reverting any vandalism if you catch it would be pretty cool of you. Thanks! xihix(talk) 01:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Joy Division

Please you should not change this information. Two peoplein Joy Division came from Salford and two people came from Macclesfield. The band are only half from Salford. I know this is I lived there. Also please refer to the Touching from a Distance book from Deborah Curtis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.30.43 (talk) 13:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikiproject Importance ratings

Hello - I noticed that Echo & the Bunnymen has recently been changed between high and mid importance, and this has highlighted to me a real inconsistency in these ratings. The Bunnymen are one of the most important 'alternative music' bands in the UK and I would guess in many other countries, including Europe and the far east, if the states was a little slow to catch on. Meanwhile we have Pearl Jam as top importance, who seem more like a 'mid' to me - they're relatively irrelevant outside America. Other 'high' importance articles include Bauhaus, Eddie Vedder, Fugazi, Husker Du, Liz Phair(!), No Doubt(!), Sleater Kinney, Wilco, Weezer, etc., all of whom would seem to have less of a claim to importance regarding alternative music than Echo & the Bunnymen. At the same time, other hugely important articles such as Big Black, Gang of Four, The Sugarcubes, and The Wedding Present are languishing in the mid-importance category. This seems incredibly inconsistent, and suggests a bias towards American alt rock over other forms of alternative music, and a degree of recentism.--Michig (talk) 11:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I've responded on my talk page. --Michig (talk) 12:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Grrrlriot (talk) has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

lies

Funny, I was reading that earlier. Speak funny how, yank? Both cork people like me and la people like you over use the word 'like', thats-like-right yeah like. spot the rubbish redundant usage. Ceoil (talk) 00:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

While searching JSTOR and google for sources for apple pie you might send a few depressing utube links. My mood is not good at the moment; anything to do with death, destruction, bats, and rain would be just fine. Have mazzy star on itunes at the moment, but they have only one good song, and you can only listen to the one song 24 times before boredom sets in. Ceoil (talk) 01:11, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks guy. I really like Siouxsie, mainly because I like short hair on women, and because saying siouxsie is a bit sexy is like saying the popes a bit religous. Ceoil (talk) 01:20, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
You tell me. I'm reaching for someting but not there yet. Haven't taken enough drugs I suppose. But i'm trying. Ceoil (talk) 01:49, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

WHITE ALBUM

Hi Wesley, this is VASCO from PORTUGAL,

Thanks for reverting the changes in "THE BEATLES" (1968) after all the work i had, i was only trying to help as always. Will leave it just the way you left it, lest i am accused of vandalism.

Have a nice weekend, from Portugal VASCO AMARAL - --217.129.67.28 (talk) 19:48, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

WHITE ALBUM - part 2

Hi WESLEY, VASCO here again,

A downright odd thing occurred now in the "PERSONNEL" section of the album in question. After you reverted the section (you had your reasons and i respect them) and i dropped a message, i checked back an hour later and your stuff was reverted, leading back to MY EDITS!! My dear fellow editor, think what you will, except it was me who reverted it back, dont know what happened there man (just check EDIT HISTORY, to see that my user nº (217.129.67.28) does not appear after your changes)!!

This is a site about teamwork and i would not ever (unless i saw it as ill-mannered actions, yours was not) revert changes that someone else did, especially as you justified those.

Hope you believe me, man, have a nice weekend, VASCO AMARAL - --217.129.67.28 (talk) 20:52, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Nirvana

If I can find the time, sure. I've been pretty busy lately and don't know the extent of my availability. I'm not planning on doing too much work in the month of February. I need some time away from Wikipedia and I'm going to Paris on the 15th for a few weeks so my contributions will be limited. How do you think Flea is coming along? Anything left? NSR77 TC 14:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought the same thing, initially. Although Flea may be the most readily identifiable member of the Red Hot Chili Peppers next to Anthony, John has a super-loyal fan base because of his solo material. John is also a lot more active in his life; he never really sleeps. In the past few years I remember he once said the longest break he had was right after Stadium Arcadium was finished in December 2005 for about a month. Plus there used to be a really good Frusciante fan site called frusciante.net (that recently closed down, for some reason) which compiled hundreds of interviews and magazine related information. Some of which I don't even have. Flea doesn't have his own fan based website or forum because he's merely a member of a band. Apparently the solo aspect makes all the difference. But you missed me on the Nirvana thing by about five months. If you had asked me in September/October, when I went through my most recent Nirvana phase, I would have emphatically helped. NSR77 TC 22:59, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I think the discussion should be transcribed to WT:ALM. It's more appropriate and allows other users to intervene. I wholly support your stance and it's pretty ridiculous to lump indie and alternative into one homogeneous category. NSR77 TC 00:55, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Go ahead, it's in good shape. The prose could use some sprucing, though. I do have some quotes I'd like to add from Robert, but those can be done later on. By far not the best Cure song, but certainly a grand one. NSR77 TC 03:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The next WP:ALM newsletter quote: "I honestly don't class myself as a songwriter. I've got 'musician' written on my passport. That's even funnier." - Robert Smith NSR77 TC 00:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to bet you the band is one I either hate or dislike. I can feel it. Any hints? NSR77 TC 02:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh my god I hate them both. They're the biggest fucking assholes in the music industry. I always wondered how you could like that terrible band. They always say how "their music is fantastic, everyone knows us, we're bigger than Elvis, blah blah blah." No you're not, you're practically a one-hit-wonder in the U.S. and no one likes pricks. I'd rather become a devote Radiohead fan than see Oasis in concert. Seriously, how do you like that shit? NSR77 TC 02:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry if I came off as angry; I just really don't like them. Zeitgeist need a lot of work. That entire "alternate release" section needs to go and be merged with the regular release section. Did you know it was up for GA? NSR77 TC 02:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I told you the prose could use some sprucing. NSR77 TC 20:01, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to bring Flea to FAC in a couple days. I have no idea where Grim is and I don't know when he'll have internet access again. Make any changes you see fit and alert me of any problems you can find. NSR77 TC 06:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I most likely will not. If it's good, it's good. If it isn't, it isn't. NSR77 TC 04:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure. I may end up finishing "Under the Bridge" and then work on either Stadium Arcadium or Disintegration. I'm not too interested in Wikipedia at the moment (I had another "I'm just wasting my time in the scheme of things, what's the point?" epiphanies) so I'm putting the RHCP article aside until I am more involved. You? NSR77 TC 20:25, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't foresee myself leaving Wikipedia in the near future. One day I do, yes, but when that time comes I'll probably never know. Perhaps next year when the difficulty of balancing Collage work and Collage parties becomes too intense. I might end up leaving in five years; who knows. My ultimate goal is to get every RHCP band member, album and key singles to FA status. Once I achieve that I may stick around only to revert IP's who fuck with things. What about you? Do you envision staying here forever? I imagine you could run for adminship and succeed easily. I always wondered why you weren't one in the first place. NSR77 TC 20:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Are you serious? That's ridiculous. Wikipedia is, of course, the home of every single farfetched, obscure and pretty much unknown music genre in the world. Funkcore? I've never even heard of it. NSR77 TC 00:02, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
For Christ sake... :) NSR77 TC 01:45, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

SST

I haven't got Our Band to hand (took just the Replacements oral bio for the weekend), but it may be worth including how Ginn met Spot. (I think all my edits to the article so far have been related to Spot in some way. Strange.) CloudNine (talk) 23:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it's early on in the book, and I don't think it explains how the other two co-owners became involved. (IIRC, it only really mentions Carducci when he leaves.) CloudNine (talk) 00:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Extraordinarly nice

Anytime you want to swap Queen links; I'm your man. 1, 2. Odd, I went for the obvious ones when the chips came down. Its Queen, WP: WGAF (who gives a fuck) . Ceoil (talk) 00:59, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

I wish I too had a generic moustache. Ceoil (talk) 01:05, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I always prefered Paul. It changes, but at the moment I pick "Hello, goodbye" as the finest Beatles song, though its a close second to the Spector version of "the long and winding road" (really!). What can I say, its sentimental tosh, but I like sentimental tosh! Ceoil (talk) 10:15, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Well all the interesting parts of "A Day in the Life" were Paul's. By the way, top five vocalists and no mention of Gedge or Belinda. Tut tut, how cool are you, really? Mojo have a special 'indie' eps out at the moment, not worth buying, but definately worth brousing for 10 minutes in a newsagents. The hair! The duffel coats! Felt! Spaceman 3! Makes me think; God I've wasted my life. Ceoil (talk) 10:30, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm going away for the weekend, so I suggest you think long and hard over the next few days before you post the last two. I've fallen out with brothers over less. Ceoil (talk) 10:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
For god sake. Of course, was just washing up behind your trail. Discovered Pacific Ocean Blue today; oh my. Ceoil (talk) 00:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
When you tire of runing my reputation on the internets you might like to have a listen to these 1 2 3 four 5. Ceoil (talk) 09:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Rumour has it that MBV are playing the Electric picnic this summer. Oh boy. I'll let you know how it goes. Ceoil (talk) 09:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
And? Do you want me to say that that is ok or what; I'll forgive you so don't worry. Smashing Pumpkins played Dublin on Saturday, didn't go but a friend did and said the gig was good but ruined by multiple ten minute guitar solos. A lot of the crowd had left by the last half hour. Ceoil (talk) 09:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The National? Going to see them in Galway in, I think, may. What a great band, Boxer is probably my favourite album from last year. You recovered nicely there from your Iron Maiden outburst!! Ceoil (talk) 09:55, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Ha! We all have our dark secrets! What are you planning on working on these days? Any plans to nom Just like Heaven? There would not be an issue re 1b, all sources are covered and of its own the article is very strong. Why not? Ceoil (talk) 09:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Oh for Jesus sake! Just nominate the fucker already. That is one stupid reason. FAs are a good thing, add another. Ceoil (talk) 10:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm going for a cigarette and a coffey. I'll be about 20 minutes. When I get back I'd like to vote support on the JLH FAC page. Ceoil (talk) 10:13, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
It means I really like Burial, and I'm old and doting. Ceoil (talk) 10:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The song is about herion, a bad thing, for weekends only. Ceoil (talk) 22:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Outriggr seems to be frisky again these days. I nominated today if I was you, while asking him for a once over. The worst a nom can result in is improvement. Ceoil (talk) 11:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought youd never ask. I have popcorn and a can of coke with me. Right click, open in new window' here goes. Ceoil (talk) 11:25, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Wesley when you get to the level of some prick on youtube shortening the guitar solo, its time to step back, nom and get others openions. So step back, nom. Ceoil (talk) 11:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm obsessived with this today [1]. Listened to it about 15 times so far, and it gets better each time. Joy! Ceoil (talk) 11:56, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Eek, but she's cute in an earthy kind of way. Can't sing for shit though. Thanks for giving me an unhappy memory. Ceoil (talk) 12:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
"supposed to ironic Southern rock"? Its no secret that Yanks don't do Irony; but its a verb now over there?? Explain your self. Ceoil (talk) 12:04, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The woman is seriously over exposed here, but she still does it for me. Be amazed. Ceoil (talk) 12:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The clock at the foot of my PC informes me that around about now LA dwelling ex-college layabouts wake up around about, around about, NOW! Nomm........fucker. Ceoil (talk) 07:31, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Listening to the doors. The last album; Hyacinth House is so great. No other news; it will likely rain later on, people I like will die, some plague expected, etc. Ceoil (talk) 07:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

RE: Alternative rock

I replied to your comment on the talk page for Alternative rock. I was baffled by the redirect on the French Wiki, and defintiely think there should be two articles. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:16, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I see there's some discussion on the French talk page as well as your French Wiki user page. I can't read (most) Frenc's why having's, whay haveh, but if you have any further questions, you can ask me directly on my talk page. WesleyDodds (talk) 22:52, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok thanks! Well I transmitted all I've been told here and another french user was alright to recreate the rock alternatif's page, basing himself on a translation from the english version. So there are no problems at all! :) Well, just one thing, I don't like at all the english article for indie rock, neither for its form nor for its contain so I'm working on the article by myself using books of mine and I'm quite satisfied for the moment, although there sure are missing or undevelopped points. Thank for all. Regards. Xic667 (talk) 23:12, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, we haven't gotten around to working on Indie rock too much, so do what you like on the French Wiki. I saw something on your French talk page about Grunge music and indie rock. Grunge is not indie rock, but both are types of alternative rock. WesleyDodds (talk) 00:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, what you seem to be writing is actually a summary of Independent music, which is music released on independent record labels, rather than an article on indie rock. Indie rock didn't exist until the 1980s. WesleyDodds (talk) 01:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

At the beginning, I consider Grunge was a particular kind of indie rock. Indie rock is a main influence for many grunge bands. The sound of "In Utero" for example is clearly indy, isn't it? But yes it's part of the extended alternative rock's family. About the actual "rock indépendant"'s page, the facts are that we don't have a dedicated article to independant music. So I thought it'd be good to have a summary of indy music history on this article. The sections related to before end of the 70's are titles like "antecedents". Moreover, for the redaction of this article I've been using the "dictionnaire du rock" of Michel Assayas, which is one of the most important bibliographic references around rock in french. Its article remounts actually to 50's with the apparition of rock, so I followed the plan, and I'm quite alright with it. The matter is that the 80's and 90's sections are quite undevelopped fot the moment, but I'll be working on that! Defining what 'indy rock" sound is is quite difficult and hardly obkective, I think the best we may present it in an encyclopedia is first describing the emergence and devloppment of independant rock bands (that is, signed on an independant records label), and then explaining which bands have been more emblematic and why they've been acssociated clearly to the indy rock's scene. A big problem we have (and it seems to be the same on many articles on english WP) is a big lack of serious and objective sources. Xic667 (talk) 09:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Well I personnaly think it's not so easy to be so categoric abround what is indy rock and what is not. For Pavement and Sebadoh, it's ok, and I think tha many grunge bands were widely influenced by this sound. But if ALt rock and indy rock are exactly the same til beginning of 90's, why having separated devloppment in each dedicated article? Xic667 (talk) 10:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that first: alternative rock is not clealy defined at all, and secondly, grunge isn't an unitary movemement, musically speaking. Where's the link between Alice in chains'music ans Peal jam's one? Except that it's rock? I only pretend that indy rock was a major influence for some relevant grunge bands, Nirvana included. Xic667 (talk) 10:31, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. And the article doesn't define clearly what grunge music is, except saying it's a mix of different influences, the grunge thing is more visible in the attitude and clothes according to the article. Indie rock is actually presented like an important influence. I don't see where's the matter! Xic667 (talk) 10:38, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Well those are genralities and whatever you say, may not be appled to EVERy pretended grunge bands. Are you trying to convince me that You have THE truth, and that I'm wrong? Most grunge bands did'nt have the feeling to belong to an unitary movement. Cobain recongnized himself as a punk, and was widely influenced by the Beatles! Xic667 (talk) 10:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Extract frome the definition of Indy rock: "It is not strictly a genre of music (although the term is often used to reference the sound of specific bands and the bands they have influenced), but is often used as an umbrella term covering a wide range of artists and styles, connected by some degree of allegiance to the values of underground culture, counterculture, and (usually) describable as rock music. Genres or subgenres often associated with indie rock include lo-fi, ..." Can't it be applied to most grunge bands? Xic667 (talk) 11:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
No. Indie rock in fact largely rejects heavy metal and hard rock. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:52, 10 February 2008 (UTC
That's a cliche. I thought the same before being more interested in heavy metal. Although indy rock may reject part of the heavy metal players typical attitude, it integrates several characteristics from heavy metal, musically speaking. The frontier some people want to establish beetween metal and punk is a pure groupies debate. There ve been numerous and prolific interactions beetween hevay metal, indy and punk rock scenes. Xic667 (talk) 11:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but I think your vision is very simplist, although there exist examples that may illustrate those ideas, I think it's too radical and, eventually, untrue. Frontiers beetween music genres are just commodities but are very often denied by the facts. The evolution in music is made of creations/reactions/interactions, you can't categorize things so clearly, that's a reduction. Xic667 (talk) 12:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

You should nuance more, and make a difference beetween music and attitude. Xic667 (talk) 12:39, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I think I understand you quite finely. Well, ok. Most of indy bands ain't influenced by heavy metal. So grunge, that has an admitted influence taken from heavy metal, is not indy rock... What a strange reflexion! Let's continue... Most of grunge bands aren't influenced by the beatles, Nirvana's Cobain was, so, it's not grunge! See what I mean? Xic667 (talk) 13:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Grunge makes himself with heavy metal, what few indie bands did before. That's called innovation, nothing more. That's my point of view. Regards Xic667 (talk) 14:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

"Sure it was innovative, but that doesn't mean grunge is indie rock. "Indie rock" today largely refers to the alternative bands that stayed underground after Nirvana's breakthrough." That's quite a fuzziness ans unofficial definition. It doesn't either mean it's not indy. I think I'm gonna try this discussion bexause it seems that we're not alright, and you will not convince me and I won't convince you. Xic667 (talk) 07:20, 11 February 2008 (UTC) Everything I've been telling you is based on sources. For instance, that definition of indie rock can be found here. I find it odd that you dismiss several of my points by claiming the genre definitions are unclear. The fact is you can hold the opinions you desire, but information integrated into Wikipedia must be based on reliable sources, and this is what reliable sources have to say about these topics. WesleyDodds (talk) 07:29, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see where's the contradiction beetween what I've been telling you and the definition you give me. On the contrary, the presentation done on the page you indicate approximates more indy and grunge than me. Xic667 (talk) 08:54, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The article exactly says: "Indie rock truly separated itself from alternative rock around the time that Nirvana hit the mainstream". Grunge did not wait for Nirvana's mainstream to exist. On the contrary it began to lose its signification at the moment. I think on the contrary this definition confirms my thoughts, which are: grunge is part of indy rock/alternative. And from Nirvana's break out alternative begins to have this actual sense (wich is quite large) and indy keeps more restricted. But all grunge existed before that. Xic667 (talk) 09:03, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry but I won't discuss this four hours and hours. You have a personnal interpretation and I have mine, sorry but NO reliable source explicitly says: "grunge is not indy rock", that's it. Then understand it like you want. The article I'm writing is based on one of the best reliable sources that exists in french (and I don't see patent contradiction with "reliable" sources in english), overmore it perfectly converges with my conceptions. The english article needs verification so it seems you have no lesson to give me about being based or not on reliable sources. Xic667 (talk)

What is easier or not to do is YOUR point of view, so if we follow this, we should not talk about indy rock during the 80's??? That's when the indy was best 'to me)! Let's give up please, it's perfectly useless. Xic667 (talk)

"I like 80s alternative rock a lot." You're joking or what??? Fighting with words is not my thing. It only seems than in french we prefer to say "rock indépendant" to design all this stream of rock, and I perfectly agree with it. "Alternative" is a commercially connoted term, used particularly on the mainstreams radios to qualify bands as ludicrous and "unalternative" as Muse or RHCP and many others. Think and say whatever you want. Regards. Xic667 (talk) 09:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

""Alternative" meant underground/obscure/uncommercial before the genre became popular." And now it's become popular it has clearly lost this meaning.
"It's funny, these days I've heard people complaining "indie" has lost it's meaning." It's funny, these years I've only heard the expression "rock alternatif" in the mainstream medias or in the words of people who don't actually know this music. Xic667 (talk) 11:51, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

"I'm not French so I can't tell you how pervasive it is over there, but the earliest uses of "Alternative rock" in the United States come from the mid-1980s. The earliest use in print I've found is from an issue of Rolling Stone in 1985." I did not say "rock alternatif" was not used in the 80's. Actually it was, but it had lost its meaning since yet, and yes it's now a term (too) pervasive. Xic667 (talk) 12:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

One More Day

Re: c'mon, the plot was insanely stupid

True words. I thought they'd reached a special level of stupid when they cloned Thor -- of which I heard Mark Waid wonder if anyone at Marvel has a brain these days. "If you cloned Jesus, you shouldn't expect him to have Jesus powers." But lordy, cloning Thor was a stroke of genius next to this mess.

Even so, that bizarre story could conceivably earn GA status for the same reason the Sinestro Corps War did: It's a complete story rather than a never-ending character bio or whole series. Doczilla (talk) 06:52, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the One More Day article yet, but the controversy over the story's problems is actually what gives the article a better shot at earning GA or FA status. It has far more real world significance than most of these story articles. Doczilla (talk) 07:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Well said: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Comics#The_first_step_to_creating_more_comics_GAs_and_FAs. Doczilla (talk) 06:16, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

In fact, if we were to start a Guidelines for Writing Featured Articles on Comics page, I'd say a statement regarding sources outside the comics themselves ought to be guideline #1 or at least darn close to the top of the list. Doczilla (talk) 06:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
There are so many characters which have short-short articles (or excessively detailed articles that ought to be stubbish) that simply do not merit their own articles. We're still cleaning up the Amalgam characters, but we're getting there. I saw someone going through Morlock stubs to combine them. A systematic approach of selecting the most obvious groupings first would be a great place to start. Doczilla (talk) 06:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Teareful

Re: Phil. Why do people have to die? Why. Ceoil (talk) 08:33, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I connect with MES in an unusaul way, fair play to him. Ceoil (talk) 08:45, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Great saves (from Marskell)

Alternate versions of Barbara Gordon

Do you have any suggestions for improving the Alternate versions of Barbara Gordon article? I'd like to advance it to GA status. Bookkeeperoftheoccult (talk) 08:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

On the Stone Roses

Since I live in a continent that is neither Europe nor North America, sadly I don't have access to any offline sources on modern rock. Thats why I'm restricting myself to discographies at the moment (currently working on the Libertines' discography here and plan to take it to FLC in a couple of days). But yeah the Stone Roses are awesome, and I've found article repositories online, so I'd love to work on them. My preference is the debut album article, but I'd be cool with anything else you have in mind. indopug (talk) 14:26, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

We have internet police these days

You what? You want me do what? Was in SA for last too weeks. Have didtched JD, FALL, Radiohead and all it cost me was my soul and a few hundred local quid.[2]. At least they seemd as about enthusiastic about brits abroad as us lot. Ceoil (talk) 03:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

That's not a horse- that's a cow! LOL . More Pease. Ceoil (talk) 03:56, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Excuse me. Found what I needed. Ceoil (talk) 04:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC) & This will always be grear regardless of who is asking. Ceoil (talk) 04:16, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
This is so listenable in a sad sister spidery crawley eaty kind of way & I have access to...guns...local explosives...captive spiders...white things...what you desire...and yet too much time on Utube winds me me up into a big nothing. No fun here. Ceoil (talk) 04:35, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Is he really saying "give me the keys, man". Have a listen to the bass drum at the end of this born slippy intro. She got real estate. Woah. Ceoil (talk) 11:53, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Which Bowie? I'm struggling with Low for the past few weeks. I know its good, but its hard work. Ceoil (talk) 12:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, but Modern Love? Its morning here so Richie Hawtin. Trying to find the energy to add more fat to this behind. Ceoil (talk) 13:03, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
live 1984. AaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhdudududududududaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhHHHhchinkchinkchink,chinkchinkchink,aaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwww. CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCeeeEEEeoIIIilllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll. de Dum de Dum. (talk) 15:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Temptation; its the dropped snare behind the opening vocal that gets me each time. Ceoil (talk) 15:45, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Bloc party! Ceoil (talk) 23:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, was getting worried there for a moment. Have you though of asking Outriggr for a hand with Just like Heaven? Ceoil (talk) 23:16, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
A hightlight from the definite 2nd difficult album.[3]. Ceoil (talk) 23:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Citing sources

Hi WesleyDodds, articles can be supported with general references – books or other sources that support a significant amount of the material in the article – and inline citationsGeneral references versus inline citations. The recommended section names to use for footnotes in Wikipedia are Notes, Footnotes and References (not a mandatory). (See Section headings). When footnotes are used, some editors find it helpful to maintain a separate References section, in which the sources that were used are listed in alphabetical order. (See the second example in Shortened notes). An External links or Further reading or Bibliography section is placed near the end of an article and offers books, articles, and links to websites related to the topic that might be of interest to the reader. The section "Further reading" may include both online material and material not available online. (See Further reading/External links). Yesterday, I renamed all the References sections in the Clash related articles to Notes and I added a References section with their bibliographies just to unify all of their articles on Wikipedia. IMO is better to use the References section or a Bibliography section but I don't want to revert your edit on London Calling article. Please, send me your opinion because my target is to unify all of their articles. Thanks in advance. —PJoe F. (talk • contribs) 09:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: London Calling. It's defined in General references versus inline citations. IMHO to consider a bibliography as a further reading seems reductive. Right now, I'll try to find some citations from those books. Thank you for your prompt reply. —PJoe F. (talk • contribs) 10:21, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Problems with Franz Ferdinand and Genres

Hi Wesley, well I've seen the problems about FF and their status as post-punk (I'm personally a fan of GO4, JD, Wire and other older post-punk bands) and have tried to get as many sources as I could to verify their post-punk revival status. I even got an even more recent source from the BBC (from the seven ages of rock), Pitchfork and Allmusic.com, but it seems this Wardroad guy insists on thier Art Rock status (with one old reference, though I reverted his edits right now). What to do? It seems this person doesn't understand and we already verified their post-punk revival status as such. Cheers. The-15th (talk) 23:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

  1. ^ http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D03E2DC1730F933A25755C0A9629C8B63
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