User talk:SMcCandlish/Archive 216
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November 2024
Street notability
Hi, for my benefit, can you link to the policy/guidance which shows my interpretation of street notability is “flat-out wrong”. Thanks. KJP1 (talk) 21:05, 5 November 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't address you in particular, but the notion that a street "inherits" notability, "rubbing off" on it from loosely associated things that in their own right might be notable (and not all the buildings in that case qualify; few of them seem to). From WP:N:
A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. "Presumed" means that significant coverage in reliable sources creates an assumption, not a guarantee, that a subject merits its own article. A more in-depth discussion might conclude that the topic actually should not have a stand-alone article—perhaps because it violates what Wikipedia is not, particularly the rule that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information.
The street fails this test, even for a temporary notability presumption, because the coverage is not significant (it is not about the street per se but about particular buildings that happen to have addresses on that street. The buildings are [sometimes] what is actually notable."Sources" should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. ... [M]ultiple sources are generally expected.
This street appears in a whole host of tertiary sources like locational databases, but has virtually no secondary coverage that is about the street itself not incidentally mentioning the street when relating information about an actually notable subject like a particular historic building or event."Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by the article's subject or someone affiliated with it.
That rules out material produced by the municipal government or a broader-jurisdiction parent body. Also excludes any material promotional of the street or neighborhood (e.g. from local commerce organisations, etc.).If a topic does not meet these criteria but still has some verifiable facts, it might be useful to discuss it within another article.
Yep; this is clearly not a WP:INDISCRIMINATE matter, and deserves encyclopedic but concise coverage, at the article on the municipality containing the street.No subject is automatically or inherently notable merely because it exists: the evidence must show the topic has gained significant independent coverage or recognition, and that this was not a mere short-term interest, nor a result of promotional activity or indiscriminate publicity, nor is the topic unsuitable for any other reason. Sources of evidence include recognized peer-reviewed publications, credible and authoritative books, reputable media sources, and other reliable sources generally.
The street as such lacks this coverage, as do most streets that are not major thoroughfares or of some special historical significance in their own right.Notable topics have attracted attention over a sufficiently significant period of time: ... Brief bursts of news coverage may not sufficiently demonstrate notability. However, sustained coverage is an indicator of notability ....
The street has brief bursts of bare-mention coverage because of particular buildings being listed as historical landmarks for preservation, but the coverage is not even about the street but about the buildings.l The street lacks the "sustained coverage" unto itself.Whether to create standalone pages: ... Sometimes, a notable topic can be covered better as part of a larger article, where there can be more complete context ...
, e.g. the article on the municipality in which the street is located.What sourcing is available now? Sometimes, when a subject is notable, but it is unlikely that there ever will be a lot to write about it, editors should weigh the advantages and disadvantages of creating a permanent stub.
The community is generally against perma-stubs unless there is a compelling reason to create one (e.g. to complete a finite series of articles in which a missing one would be confusing for the readership).
- From WP:Notability (geographic features):
Even the smallest geographical features usually may be found in numerous reliable sources: ... navigation guides, ... census tables, etc. There may be hundreds of them. They do provide reliable information about the subject. However this guideline specifically excludes them from consideration when establishing notability, because these aggregate sources tell us nothing about why a particular object is distinguished.
This material is not worded as clearly as it should be, but is obviously about tertiary and passing-mention sourcing, as distinct from significant secondary-source coverage.Engineered constructs: ... Topic notability for ... streets ... may vary, and may be notable if they satisfy the WP:GNG criteria, the criteria of another subject-specific notability guideline, or other criteria within this notability guideline.
This particular street does not.No inherited notability: Geographical features must be notable on their own merits. They cannot inherit the notability of organizations, people, or events.
The first sentence stands alone. The short example list is not intended to be exhaustive, and obviously the principle also applies to buildings, parks, subway entrances, or another other thing that might in sources be incidentally associated with a particular street as a location but is not producing in-depth secondary RS coverage of the street itself.
- See also WP:NOTINHERITED. While that has an
{{Essay}}tag on it, it is like several others (WP:BRD, for starters) in that it has a roughly guideline level of community buy-in. - If you do not already deeply intuit the implications of all of the above and how it interrelates with various other guidelines and policies, then you should maybe not be doing deletion closures, at least not geographical ones. (Personally, I would not want to do them, because of the large number of considerations to juggle, especially when various SNGs like the one for geographic features are in play, coupled with the emotional extremity that often arises with regard to such subjects, frequently motivated by local/regional/national pride PoV. I probably have the experience level to do such closes properly, but I lack the stress tolerance.)
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:08, 6 November 2024 (UTC)- First off, I really appreciate the detailed reply - particularly on a day when rather more momentous events, for the US and the world, are taking place. That said, I don't share your interpretation. For me, a street isn't only the central thoroughfare, the strip of asphalt down the middle, it is also the buildings on it. As an example, the first sentence of Downing Street reads, "is a street in Westminster in London that houses the official residences and offices of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and the Chancellor of the Exchequer". I think trying to divorce the two creates an artificial distinction. Anyways, just for the record, I didn't attempt a deletion closure in this case, have never actually done any in the past, and don't plan to in the future. So if my interpretation is wrong, it won't matter at least in that regard. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 08:25, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- I understand that perception matter, which to some degree also turns into a writing/scope matter sometimes (whether it should or not). In most cases, it appears that we properly cover notable buildings in their own articles, and when a street is notable in its own right we properly WP:SUMMARY-mention those buildings, but the street article is not the primarily location of information about those buildings, and we are not creating articles on non-notable streets based solely on the presence of one or more historical buildings along them. Except in this one bad-exception case, we simply are not creating street articles unless there is more cause for notability than such a building, and there is more RS coverage about the street more broadly. That is, there's not [usually!] a way around the "notability doesn't rub off" issue. I.e., I'm not making an argument about how things "should" be, how I'd like them to be, but how they observably are in actual practice (with this one weird and possibly temporary exception).
To put it in simpler terms, several houses of collateral relatives of mine have been designated historic buildings, and we even have articles on some of them. The Walter McCanless House and Napoleon Bonaparte McCanless House in Salisbury, North Carolina, are notable, but that doesn't magically confer notabilty on their streets. Both – Confederate Ave. and S. Main St. – are more important streets than average in that town, but still do not rise to encyclopedic notability. The former might, if coverage is generated about it for some other reason than a house's historical-landmark designation (e.g., if controversy continues to arise about its "Confederate" name, though I guess that's less likely from 2025-2028 ....) The second probably never will, since it's just like every other Main St. in every other town; central to that town but unremarkable in any way to anyone who doesn't live there. Notable and nominally historic building not withstanding.
The fact that a "local consensus" got away, for now, with a very dubious exception in the case originally under discussion doesn't mean that such an exception is now broadly applicable. I would expect a re-AfD of that street article to succeed in deletion, since no new sourcing has come to light that is about the street and its history rather than about a specific building that incidentally has its address there. And a much more articulate case can be made for why to delete it than was made in the original nomination. By way of analogy, if I become notable somehow, that doesn't make my old garage band or my current BCA eight-ball team notable, despite me being quite central to both of them, and both being of interest to some locals. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 01:30, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- I also wanted to add that in reference to things like "Downing Street" or "Broadway", it's not just the buildings that happen to be located on the street that impart notability, but the streets themselves are used metonymously to refer the the functions - the UK government / prime minister and US theater productions, respectively - that happen in the buildings on that street. This is another layer of usage that might impart a significant amount of notability to a roadway that would otherwise fail the GNG guidelines above. VanIsaac, GHTV contrabout 23:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed, though it doesn't seem to be a factor in the case originally under discussion. It ain't no "Wall Street". :-) — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:00, 13 November 2024 (UTC)
- I also wanted to add that in reference to things like "Downing Street" or "Broadway", it's not just the buildings that happen to be located on the street that impart notability, but the streets themselves are used metonymously to refer the the functions - the UK government / prime minister and US theater productions, respectively - that happen in the buildings on that street. This is another layer of usage that might impart a significant amount of notability to a roadway that would otherwise fail the GNG guidelines above. VanIsaac, GHTV contrabout 23:16, 12 November 2024 (UTC)
- I understand that perception matter, which to some degree also turns into a writing/scope matter sometimes (whether it should or not). In most cases, it appears that we properly cover notable buildings in their own articles, and when a street is notable in its own right we properly WP:SUMMARY-mention those buildings, but the street article is not the primarily location of information about those buildings, and we are not creating articles on non-notable streets based solely on the presence of one or more historical buildings along them. Except in this one bad-exception case, we simply are not creating street articles unless there is more cause for notability than such a building, and there is more RS coverage about the street more broadly. That is, there's not [usually!] a way around the "notability doesn't rub off" issue. I.e., I'm not making an argument about how things "should" be, how I'd like them to be, but how they observably are in actual practice (with this one weird and possibly temporary exception).
- First off, I really appreciate the detailed reply - particularly on a day when rather more momentous events, for the US and the world, are taking place. That said, I don't share your interpretation. For me, a street isn't only the central thoroughfare, the strip of asphalt down the middle, it is also the buildings on it. As an example, the first sentence of Downing Street reads, "is a street in Westminster in London that houses the official residences and offices of the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom and the Chancellor of the Exchequer". I think trying to divorce the two creates an artificial distinction. Anyways, just for the record, I didn't attempt a deletion closure in this case, have never actually done any in the past, and don't plan to in the future. So if my interpretation is wrong, it won't matter at least in that regard. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 08:25, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
RFA
Would you be so kind as to move this reply to the talk page? It's not really about the candidate, and will likely draw some responses, which are unlikely to be about the candidate. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:51, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- Hmm. Will think on it. I guess I won't pitch a fit if you refactor it that way. But it's half about the candidate, specifically about the closure review, that has several opposers up-in-arms against the candidate, displaying administrative management failure, i.e. being used too much for relitigation of the original question instead of examining whether the closer was in error. Maybe I can fork half of that comment to talk page, where it veers into more general matters. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:17, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish: Done that split-up refactoring, keeping the pertinent part in "General comments" and the tangential part moved to the talk page. Good enough? — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- Very good, thanks. I appreciate it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- Coolio. I should have thought more carefully about the venue. This is a stressy day in Yankeelandia .... — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:40, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- Very good, thanks. I appreciate it. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 02:32, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
- @ScottishFinnishRadish: Done that split-up refactoring, keeping the pertinent part in "General comments" and the tangential part moved to the talk page. Good enough? — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:29, 6 November 2024 (UTC)
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DoneHi, SMcCandlish, may I ask again for your help? I recently created the page The_Measure_of_Reality that apparently needs editing. May I ask you to look at it? Maybe you can fix it or tell me what is that I need to improve specifically as to remove the 'copy edit' message. I would be grateful! Andrea Saltelli Saltean (talk) 16:32, 21 November 2024 (UTC)
- As noted at Saltean's talk page, I'm looking into it, but it takes significant digging around in the sources (most of which are difficult to get). About 2/3 done with it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 15:39, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
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Clara
A highlight reel for your viewing and listening pleasure, good to hear her theme music again. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:15, 24 November 2024 (UTC)
- One of my faves, along with Karen Gillan. Coleman was really good in the Victoria TV series, though I wish it had gone on longer, into her later life, and also got more in-depth into her and Albert's connections to broader-scale phenomena like the industrial revolution and British imperialism (tends to focus more on courtly life). — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:09, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- Watched a few Victoria episodes but never followed up after missing some. I'd been aware of Doctor Who and familiar with some of the timeline, and I consider myself lucky to pick up the revived series right at the episode when Clara calls the Tardis' telephone (The Doctor: "That is not supposed to happen") and the Doctor travels to find her. In the scene where she opens to door and they talk he has a genuine look and tone of pure happiness, and their chemistry hooked me on continuing to watch for the next several years, including and beyond Clara. Her central role in the Doctor's entire life story - from the beginning to whatever end - and the lengths he went to ensure her survival, make her co-central to the series in my opinion. Bring back Clara as Doctor Who, retaining her own personality as well as the Doctor's memory bank, would be the way I'd go as a writer (and offer her the big bucks to pull it off). Randy Kryn (talk) 16:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
- I would definitely watch that! I kind of slacked off about 2/3 of the way through 13th Doctor (Whitaker). I was intrigued by the return of Tennant somehow as the 14th, but the Whitaker-period writing was iffy, and I've had a hard time forcing myself to finish that span. Aside from the original series' Pertwee (the Doctor of my childhood in England) and Tom Baker (the Doctor of my teens in the US, with PBS syndicating the show from BBC), Capaldi as the 12th has been my favorite of the reboot Doctors. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:59, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
- I've missed much of the last several years as well, watched for a couple years after Clara began "taking the long way around", but I think she spoiled me because the recent seasons haven't caught my attention/time. Maybe I'll catch up. Didn't know you had an English childhood and American upbringing, best of both worlds. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:00, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
- Learned to read and write in England. Part of why I can switch dialects in writing so easily. I didn't actually stop writing colour and centre until I was about 13 and the middle (junior-high) school teachers forced me to, by giving me punitive bad grades when I didn't. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 13:36, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
- I've missed much of the last several years as well, watched for a couple years after Clara began "taking the long way around", but I think she spoiled me because the recent seasons haven't caught my attention/time. Maybe I'll catch up. Didn't know you had an English childhood and American upbringing, best of both worlds. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:00, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
- I would definitely watch that! I kind of slacked off about 2/3 of the way through 13th Doctor (Whitaker). I was intrigued by the return of Tennant somehow as the 14th, but the Whitaker-period writing was iffy, and I've had a hard time forcing myself to finish that span. Aside from the original series' Pertwee (the Doctor of my childhood in England) and Tom Baker (the Doctor of my teens in the US, with PBS syndicating the show from BBC), Capaldi as the 12th has been my favorite of the reboot Doctors. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:59, 28 November 2024 (UTC)
- Watched a few Victoria episodes but never followed up after missing some. I'd been aware of Doctor Who and familiar with some of the timeline, and I consider myself lucky to pick up the revived series right at the episode when Clara calls the Tardis' telephone (The Doctor: "That is not supposed to happen") and the Doctor travels to find her. In the scene where she opens to door and they talk he has a genuine look and tone of pure happiness, and their chemistry hooked me on continuing to watch for the next several years, including and beyond Clara. Her central role in the Doctor's entire life story - from the beginning to whatever end - and the lengths he went to ensure her survival, make her co-central to the series in my opinion. Bring back Clara as Doctor Who, retaining her own personality as well as the Doctor's memory bank, would be the way I'd go as a writer (and offer her the big bucks to pull it off). Randy Kryn (talk) 16:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC)
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