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Where the Angels Fall GA Review

[edit]
Passed. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 00:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Where the Angels Fall/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: SupremeLordBagel (talk · contribs) 06:45, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Reviewer: The Sharpest Lives (talk · contribs) 22:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)


  • Hey- we're getting close. I want to let you know I requested a mentorship for this GAN because I wanted to make sure I'm doing everything correctly. Feel free to check out their comments here. PSA raises some good notes. I already updated the NFUR for the song sample, but I haven't changed anything in the caption. PSA says that "most ambitious" isn't a very helpful descriptor- so maybe you could cite a review that notes its' sound? Ex) Critics noted "Owl" for its' blend of this and that. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 05:53, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
    PSA also noted the two uses of "It was announced". (Both are under §Background and recording) The first could be changed to "Hull-Brown, Angus and Khadiwala also announced in September that they would leave the band after a final set of shows..." while the second could be changed to "On 6 September 2022, the independent management company Lemon Tree Music announced that they would sign with the Cat Empire." The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 06:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
checkmark Semi-done Fixed overuse of "it was announced" per your suggestions. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 08:14, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
I looked at the references for the "Owl" sample: you could note its African influences (per ref 1) and its large orchestration (per both refs). Something like: Critics, along with the band themselves, noted "Owl" for its African influences and large orchestration. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 17:39, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 Done Thank you! SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 00:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Good already

[edit]
  1. Both the album cover and the song sample have non-free use rationales, and all images pertain to the topic and have precise captions.
  2. There are no edit wars, as SupremeLordBagel (talk · contribs) seems to be pretty much the only editor.
  3. Grammar, writing, etc. is good. The article was written in a neutral tone.
  4. The article stays within scope and goes into detail on the background, composition, touring, etc.

Fixes

[edit]

Sourcing

[edit]
  • I noticed that there are quite a few primary sources (Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, etc). Could you find secondary sources for these claims? I ran some cleanup scripts on the page, and it automatically tagged the primary sources with {{Primary source inline}}. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 23:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
    This is my main concern at the moment. There are at least two claims with the tag, and I think you should at least find a secondary source for the ABC Radio National claim (section: Release and promotion), but the documentary claim just needs tweaking. Change it from Over August and September, a four-part documentary on the album's recording was released. to something like From August to September band released a four–part documentary on Facebook documenting the album's recording process. That way the using Facebook as a source is more valid (in my opinion). Though- the sentence structure may need to be changed. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 15:24, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
checkmark Semi-done Reworded documentary claim per your suggestion. I'm working on finding a secondary source for the ABC Radio National claim, but I can't find anything - only other radio appearances later in the year. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 20:50, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
I tried looking for a source, but couldn't find one. It might be better to just remove it. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 03:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 Done That was my thought too. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 04:30, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
  • The release of the album came more than four and a half years after their previous album, Stolen Diamonds (2019), the longest gap between their albums to date. Is there a source saying this specifically? If not it seems like OR. It is not verified in the body, so I would go ahead (if no sources can be found) to change it to something like "Where the Angels Fall was released four and a half years after their previous album, Stolen Diamonds (2019).". The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 02:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 Done SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 04:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
  • The Touring section of the article cites the Cat Empire homepage multiple times, but I'm not seeing any actual content on that page, except for a blinking eye. Otherwise, it appears there were only 5 shows on the Australian leg of the tour, per Music Feeds. Also, the sourcing is pretty sparse in that section. Any sources to verify the North American shows? The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 02:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
The information on the Cat Empire homepage is contained underneath the tour header. I noticed that there were dates on the band's website that weren't listed on the Music Feeds article, which was why I used their website as a reference. I'll admit that the band's website is definitely a primary source, so I might try to find one that's a little more independent. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 04:19, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing that out. I recommend just searching "cat empire australia six shows" or something similar on google to find a source. I recommend using this search engine to find reliable sources- it's been really helpful for me in the past. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 16:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
checkmark Semi-done I've found a better source for the six Australian shows. I'm looking for sources for the North American shows. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 10:27, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm looking for sources right now. I found one that might be helpful: Do 617 - The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 14:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 Done The North American shows are now all sourced. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 00:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
  • I'm not finding a source for the quote "When we came to record the album, I wanted to think about the Cat Empire more as a community of musicians than just a like-for-like replacement of band members. [...] It was really important for us to treat every song like a world of its own, and so we brought in a lot of musicians to create and reflect that". It isn't from the Rolling Stone source referenced below, so is there another place you got the quote from? The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 03:09, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 Done This quote is from the Audio Technology interview. I wasn't quite as experienced with reference formatting when I wrote this article - thanks for catching that! SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 04:22, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Thanks for addressing my previous concerns! This is my first GA review, so I'm trying to look for the fine details. Anyways, I found another claim that needs a source: The title of the album is taken from a line in the second verse, "I like the space 'tween words where the angels fall". I am sure it's true, but I think it needs to be sourced. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 12:48, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
    I noticed you just did it- thanks! The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 02:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
  • In the "Composition" section, sourcing is pretty sparse in the second paragraph. It appears that most of it is based off of the Music Feeds source though, so no worries. I would just reuse the citation earlier as well, perhaps insert it after the claim "Boom Boom" was written about "a city of music reemerging," in the wake of the COVID-19 lockdowns of 2020 and 2021, to provide proper sourcing for the quote. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 14:51, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
     Done I also added the citation there. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 15:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Text

[edit]
  • The caption for the "Owl" sample seems a little redundant. Perhaps change "A sample of the Cat Empire's "Owl"; some critics, and the band themselves, noted the song for being one of their most ambitious". to something along the lines of "Critics, along with the band themselves, noted "Owl" as one of the band's most ambitious". That may need to be clarified as well because I'm not really sure what ambitious means in this context. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 01:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 Done Changed to "Critics, along with the band themselves, noted "Owl" as one of the band's most ambitious songs." SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 09:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Near the end of the Background and recording section, there are two quotes from Riebl. It is a little unnatural reading to me to have the one after the other, so perhaps open the last paragraph with paraphrasing the "nine horn players" quote. We want to avoid overquoting. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 03:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
 Done Changed to "The band avoided double tracking during recording, instead choosing to bring in more players." SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 20:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Sorry, I haven't been able to find any other reviews - this was actually the main difficulty I had when I originally wrote the article. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 10:42, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
You're good! I'm not going to fail this just because of the lack of reviews, I promise. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 13:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
I might actually remove the quote and reword this sentence, so as to prevent overquoting (and for clarity). SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 00:30, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Sounds good to me! The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 00:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
 Done Changed to "Riebl stated that the band was attempting to recapture the "roominess" of their previous recordings at EGREM Studios." SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 01:20, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Per my mentorship mentioned above, PSA mentioned the lead. It needs info about the music itself. All you need to do is summarize the composition section and put it in the lead basically. Make sure to double check WP:LEAD if you need. + PSA suggests paraphrasing more in the reviews section rather than direct quoting. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 06:14, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
 Done – Added composition info to lead section. I've shortened one quote and paraphrased another, but I wasn't sure what to do with the others. If you have any suggestions on how to further paraphrase the reviews, please let me know! SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 07:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
I think the quote but said that "happiness can get tiring, believe it or not, and some euphoric episodes, such as "Coming Back Again" become rather showy and excessive" can be shortened. Perhaps to but called the album tiring on songs like "Coming Back Again", which "[became] rather showy and excessive". Other than that the section looks fine. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 16:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
 Done – SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 00:22, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Criteria

[edit]
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.
    a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Growing Up (The Linda Lindas album) GA Review

[edit]
Passed. joeyquism (talk) 21:51, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Growing Up (The Linda Lindas album)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: The Sharpest Lives (talk · contribs) 16:01, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Joeyquism (talk · contribs) 05:57, 9 June 2024 (UTC)


@The Sharpest Lives: Hi! I'm delighted to participate in the first GAN review circle, and even more delighted to be able to review your nomination. I'll try and get back to you within the next few days (Wednesday ~11PM EST at the latest). If you have any questions, feel free to ping me or let me know on my talk page! Joeyquism (talk) 05:57, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Rate Attribute Review Comment
1. Well-written:
1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. Prose is mostly okay, though some concerns arise:
  • The excerpts from the main Linda Lindas article in the background section are fine, but they take up a majority of the article (it's the largest section in the entire thing, as far as I can tell). I would suggest maybe using it as a starting point for describing the formation and the single "Racist, Sexist Boy", but it shouldn't be the most descriptive part of the article. Plus, the inclusion of more important details about "Racist, Sexist Boy" in the background prevents you from writing about it in more detail below. I noticed that the sentence in the composition section The anti-racist song "Racist, Sexist Boy" was written about an encounter Mila de la Garza had with a boy at school is rather short and lacks the detail that can be found in the background section.
  • Growing Up was recorded and mixed at Music Friends, which is Carlos de la Garza's backyard studio. — I think "which is" can be excluded here. Including it makes it seem a bit amateurish.
  • "Racist, Sexist Boy" has commonly been compared to riot grrrl sound and ideals. — Can you explain what "ideals" refers to?
  • Wong cut the dolls freehand, intending for them to appear like the band members as cats. — Remove wikilink for band members, and perhaps phrase it more like "represent" as opposed to "appear like".
  • The song "Nino" was written about Bela Salazar's cat. She had previously written a song about her cat, Monica, which appeared in the Linda Lindas' eponymous EP (2020). Feeling that Nino "wouldn't leave her alone until he got a song too", Salazar wrote the song "Nino" for him. — In the first sentence, you should clarify that Nino is also the name of her cat (for a bit, I thought it was somehow about Monica). Something like "of the same name" at the end of that sentence would be good, and then insert "other" before "cat" in the second sentence.
  • ...the band performed a Tiny Desk (Home) Concert at the Los Angeles Public Library... — Not sure if "(Home)" is necessary; is this how other articles do it? I do understand that's how it was rebranded during the COVID years, but I would take precedence from other articles. Either way, this is minutiae and can likely be ignored; the point is made clearly.
  • ...with some shows alongside Japanese Breakfast, Bacchae, and Yeah Yeah Yeahs. — Remove "some"
1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. Some issues:
  • The lead is a bit short considering the depth of the content that appears in the article. I would include more about the genres, themes, the COVID background, and composition.
  • Words such as "comments" and "calls" in the critical reception section should be in the past tense.
  • The track listing should be using Template:Track listing. If you need help with formatting, let me know; I struggle with it myself at times.
2. Verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check:
2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. Looks good. Liner notes and videos are attributed with the proper citation templates.
2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). The excerpt from the main Linda Linda article contains some questionable and deprecated sources. I'm seeing a Wordpress link, and some sources (Mediaite and Pollstar) that don't seem like they would fly by on WP:RS. All the more reason to write a new background section. Otherwise, other sources for original writing seem good. (Edit: for the sentence Growing Up was recorded and mixed at Music Friends, which is Carlos de la Garza's backyard studio., only the backyard studio part is corroborated by the cited source. I'm sure the liner notes would confirm the name of the studio as Music Friends.)

Source spot check:

  • [2] — Definitely remove this. Other than this and the others I mentioned above, the other sources in the background section look promising (1, 7, 8, 10 look great)
  • [11]
  • [15]
  • [22]
  • [29] — Include the work (Consequence of Sound)
  • [33]
  • [40]
  • [42]
  • [49]
  • [53]
  • [59] — The author is not Conde Nast (that's a dead guy, and also the publishing company that owns Teen Vogue). The author is Sara Delgado.
  • [63]
  • [71]
  • [74]
2c. it contains no original research. Nothing that I can find that resembles original research.
2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism. Copyvio check returned 47.1% similarity. While I realize that these are because of quotations, I feel like you can clean it up a bit with paraphrasing (especially the Bela Salazar quote). Otherwise, other sources are clean.
3. Broad in its coverage:
3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. I think more can be said about the writing and recording stage; for instance, in the Rolling Stone article, I found the following excerpt:

"As with the EP, the album was written during the first lockdown phase of the pandemic in 2020, when the girls had to attend school remotely and couldn’t see one another or other friends regularly. They say they found it cathartic to write down their feelings of loneliness and confusion." This can be included and expanded upon.

3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). Article is focused on the subject and its creators with no discernable content about other extraneous topics.
4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. No overly laudatory or scathing comments; everything is written to describe the album as is.
5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. No edit warring here.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. Looks good. Perhaps make the picture of Carlos de la Garza bigger, and consider including some audio clips if possible. Otherwise, good job on illustrating the article!
6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. Looks good.
7. Overall assessment. @The Sharpest Lives: For now, I'm putting this on hold. The content is clear and relatively well-written, but it needs some moderate tweaking and some expanding in order for me to feel comfortable passing it. Sources are mostly good (well done!), but a few need to be removed due to reliability/verifiability concerns. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to let me know by pinging me. Thank you for your hard work on this article! I wasn't too familiar with the Linda Lindas other than "Racist, Sexist Boy" before reading this, and from what I've now learned, I feel like they're a wholesome bunch to listen to. Very glad to be able to review your work! --Joeyquism (talk) 20:37, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

@The Sharpest Lives: Gonna add some more things I'm seeing below. Apologies for not being as comprehensive as I could have been on the first reply.

  • where they had previously performed their live version of "Racist, Sexist Boy". — You can remove the wikilink for "Racist, Sexist Boy", along with most of the other wikilinks for it above; I think 1-3 wikilinks of the same subject is a good sweet spot, unless the article is blazingly long. There should also still be a mention of it in the background (I noticed you removed it), seeing as it's one of the first songs the band released in general and it appears on the album; one wikilink for it in the background and the one in the track listing should be fine. If you need help with this, let me know.
  • It features Ray Barbee taking pictures of the Linda Lindas using a Polaroid camera. — Include the primary/most applicable profession (skateboarder, photographer, musician) of Ray Barbee before his name; less informed readers may not know who they are. Same with Humberto Leon (photographer).
  • Lil' Dude is a cat, however he is still noted in the liner notes. — Cute detail! Keep this in the article - I think it'd be a nice DYK submission if the article passes. Don't do anything to this, just wanted to note that I saw it earlier and it made me smile.
  • DIY editor Ben Tipple commented, "with debut full-length 'Growing Up' [the Linda Lindas] easily cement themselves as far more than a viral moment, pairing political and social charge with a suitably playful charm." — Perhaps exclude the phrase "with debut full-length 'Growing Up'" and say something like DIY editor Ben Tipple commented that with Growing Up, the Linda Lindas had "easily cement[ed]...."

If I find any more things, I'll let you know. Sorry for being so pedantic; I understand that this is your first GAN and I really want you to succeed and become an even better writer! --Joeyquism (talk) 03:33, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Hey Joey! Sorry I haven't replied to you - I've been a little busy so I just edit real quick while I can. Let me do a little checklist of your suggestions that I've done.
  • "compared to riot grrrl sound and ideals" - removed ideals (I don't know what I was thinking)
  • Fixed the paper dolls sentence
  • Clarified the Nino/Monica section
  • Tiny Desk (Home) Concert- I left that as is, because it's the way most sources write it
  • Removed "some" (some shows alongside...)
  • Changed critical reception section to past tense
  • Left tracklist as-is, because I'm looking at the WikiProject Albums style guide, and in the tracklist section it says that the tracklist should be a numbered list unless it is more complex. see WP:TRACKLISTING
  • Music Friends is the name listed in the liner notes. I can email you a picture perhaps? I don't know if that's allowed. I'll see if I can find another source to connect the name "Music Friends" with Carlos' backyard
  • Fixed sources (except for background section- will rewrite soon)
  • Lil' Dude (cat) note- I struggled with this fact for a little while, I was like "Can we credit a cat in the personnel section?" Because in the liner notes, it's simply "Piano on Nino by Lil' Dude" or something like that. I decided to leave it and make a note so that readers would understand. I'm glad you noticed!
  • Fixed "DIY editor Ben Tipple..." quote
Thanks! – The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 14:34, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
@The Sharpest Lives: You're all good! Let me know if you need more time to edit the article to meet standards; I totally understand if you are busy. Joeyquism (talk) 20:44, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
@The Sharpest Lives: Hi there! Just wanted to see if you're still working on the article; I think per general GAN guidelines I can give you about a week more at most unless there exists some outside conflict that demands more of your time (in which case, you'll have to clarify that such a situation is going on, and only then will I be able to grant you more time). Hope you're having a great weekend! joeyquism (talk) 22:21, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
@Joeyquism: Yeah, one more week would be nice. I just need to work on rewriting the background section. Anyways, I was wondering where I should put the "Racist, Sexist Boy" info. Would it belong in #Background or #Writing and composition? – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 23:53, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
@The Sharpest Lives Good question. I think the information would maybe be better off in the writing and composition section, as it is, after all, featured on the album. This should also be reflected in the recording period; while I recognize that the liner notes may state that the rest of the album was recorded from June to October of 2021, I believe that May to October would be more accurate considering the fact that that is when "Racist, Sexist Boy" was recorded (unless the version that appears on the album was a re-recording that I'm not aware of - that being said, I suggest going with whatever your instincts may tell you). Of course, this is just my opinion and your judgement takes precedence, though I hope that you take my remarks into consideration when rewriting. For additional information on what information should go where, see WP:ALBUMSTYLE.
Your request for a week of extra time has been noted and granted. Best of luck, and I look forward to seeing what you write! joeyquism (talk) 00:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
@Joeyquism: Thanks for the idea! As for the recording date- the Racist, Sexist Boy page does state that the song was recorded in May, but that is a live version that was released as a single. The studio version was probably recorded within that June to October window. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 05:43, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
@The Sharpest Lives: Good work on finding that information! This should likely be mentioned somewhere in the article as well (i.e. indicate that the song had been re-recorded for the album). I'm about to head to sleep, so I apologize if this isn't as helpful as you would have hoped. I'll elaborate if needed in the morning. Happy editing! joeyquism (talk) 06:11, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
@Joeyquism Hey, I rewrote Growing Up (The Linda Lindas album) § Background. It is shorter, but I believe it provides good detail, and doesn't go too much into the "Racist, Sexist Boy" writing. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 20:14, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
@The Sharpest Lives Hi there! Looks a lot better, but I do have some quick concerns:
  • On second thought, the illustrating image is quite large compared to the text, and fixed image sizes are not really something people take to very kindly in reviews. I suggest removing the fixed image size, and just running with however large the image appears after removal. I personally dislike that fixed image sizes aren't utilized more, but they are ultimately better for accessibility purposes and improving the reading experience.
  • Poehler, impressed by the band, invited them to make a cameo for her 2021 film Moxie. - Reads strangely; try Impressed by their performance, Poehler invited... It is also questionable as to whether or not this information should be included as well; however, it does provide context into what the band did before the album, so take this as a mere footnote and do with it as you wish.
  • Remove the Film Music Reporter source - I believe this has been deprecated.
  • ...Viet Thanh Nguyen, who said, "'Racist, Sexist Boy' is the song we need now". - Could be phrased better. Try ...Viet Thanh Nguyen, the latter of which said "'Racist, Sexist Boy' is the song we need now".
  • On May 22, 2021, Epitaph Records announced that it had signed the Linda Lindas. It was later clarified that Epitaph had been working on a deal with the Linda Lindas before the video went viral. - These can be conjoined with a semicolon, and you should mention that it was in the works previously; e.g. On May 22, 2021, Epitaph Records announced that it had signed the Linda Lindas; it was later clarified that Epitaph had been previously working on a deal with the Linda Lindas before the video went viral.
That's all I have to say as of now; great work on expanding the lead, by the way! Hope to hear back from you again soon. joeyquism (talk) 20:26, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
@Joeyquism I incorporated your suggestions. No offense to Mr Garza, but the image is just to large and I hate too say it but it might be better off removed, what do you think? As for the lead, is that long enough, or should I go into further detail? BTW, thanks for all the suggestions- I think the article is starting to look much better. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 21:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
@The Sharpest Lives I threw the upright parameter in there just to make sure the image fits. As for the lead, I think the breadth is good as is, but I have one comment:
  • Growing Up, a punk rock album, centers on themes of growing up, discovering oneself, and anxieties that arise in adolescence. - This can be phrased as "Growing Up is a punk rock album, with lyrics that focus on themes of..."
Otherwise, great work! I also think the article is looking a lot better, and I'm very much looking forward to see what you write up for it in the coming days. joeyquism (talk) 21:27, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
@Joeyquism I hate to sound ignorant, but am I missing anything? I believe I have addressed your concerns/suggestions, though you say you are excited for me to write more. Just making sure I didn't miss anything. Thanks! – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 21:40, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
@The Sharpest Lives: Apologies for the miscommunication. I have read through the article again, and I am now more comfortable with passing it. Well done! I should now clarify and amend my message: I'm very much looking forward to see what you write up in the future! joeyquism (talk) 21:51, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Pablo Honey GA Review

[edit]
Passed. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 18:24, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Pablo Honey/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: PerfectSoundWhatever (talk · contribs) 23:02, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: The Sharpest Lives (talk · contribs) 00:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)


Hey! I'm Sam, aka The Sharpest Lives. I decided to review this article because I love radiohead and hope that this can reach GA, maybe even FA status. I'll get started on the review soon, probably around tomorrow. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 00:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm going to place this on hold. Below you can see my suggestions, and once they are addressed I will feel ready to promote the article. Good job! – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 20:46, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
After looking over the article, I am ready to pass this. Time for a good topic! PS I found a source for the {{cn}} tag. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 18:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Criteria

[edit]
Good Article Status - Review Criteria
Further information: WP:WIAGA

A good article is—

  1. Well-written:
    2. (a) the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct; and
    (b) it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.[1]
  2. Verifiable with no original research:
    3. (a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;
    (b) reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose);[2]
    (c) it contains no original research; and
    (d) it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.
  3. Broad in its coverage:
    4. (a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic;[3] and
    (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
  4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
  5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
    6. [4]
  6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
    7. [5]
    (a) media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
    (b) media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.[6]

Notes

  1. ^ Compliance with other aspects of the Manual of Style, or the Manual of Style mainpage or subpages of the guides listed, is not required for good articles.
  2. ^ Footnotes must be used for in-line citations.
  3. ^ This requirement is significantly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required of featured articles; it allows shorter articles, articles that do not cover every major fact or detail, and overviews of large topics.
  4. ^ Vandalism reversions, proposals to split or merge content, good faith improvements to the page (such as copy editing), and changes based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply. Nominations for articles that are unstable because of unconstructive editing should be placed on hold.
  5. ^ Other media, such as video and sound clips, are also covered by this criterion.
  6. ^ The presence of images is not, in itself, a requirement. However, if images (or other media) with acceptable copyright status are appropriate and readily available, then some such images should be provided.

Review

[edit]
  1. Well-written:
    2. Criteria Notes Result
    (a) (prose) Excellent lead Pass Pass
    (b) (MoS) Seems to follow MOS to me. Pass Pass
  2. Verifiable with no original research, as shown by a source spot-check:
    3. Criteria Notes Result
    (a) (references) Comments below Pass Pass
    (b) (citations to reliable sources) The reviewer has left no comments here Pass Pass
    (c) (original research) Nothing appears to be OR Pass Pass
    (d) (copyvio and plagiarism) No copyvios detected Pass Pass
  3. Broad in its coverage:
    4. Criteria Notes Result
    (a) (major aspects) Check Pass Pass
    (b) (focused) It goes into excellent detail. What a read! Pass Pass
  4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
    5. Notes Result
    No exceptional claims or anything non-neutral sounding Pass Pass
  5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
    6. Comment Result
    Relatively new and no sign of edit warring or ongoing Pass Pass
  6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
    7. Criteria Notes Result
    (a) (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales) I checked on the album cover NFUR, it's all correct. Pass Pass
    (b) (appropriate use with suitable captions) The reviewer has left no comments here Pass Pass

Result

[edit]
Result Notes
Pass Pass Check!

Background

[edit]
  • The Rolling Stone source calls Manic Hedgehog the unnoficial name of the demos. This should be reflected in the text. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 15:32, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
  • The New Yorker (Alex Ross) source doesn't say that EMI requested a name change, or that Radiohead signed a 6-album contract (though I feel like I've heard that somewhere else). These should be removed or sourced. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 15:32, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
  • "He was initially more impressed by Hufford and Edge than by Radiohead, calling them 'crafty mothers ... I don't think I've ever met two guys who had more of a plan.'" I can't find this quote on the MTV reference. Is it on another perhaps? – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 16:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Release and promotion

[edit]
  • "... 'Creep' began receiving airplay on US radio stations and rose to number two on the US Modern Rock chart" this claim is not supported by the provided source (The New Yorker). Is it anywhere else? – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 18:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
    Neither is the claim "the music video for "Creep" was in heavy rotation on MTV". I think the source must be somewhere else on the website? I'm not sure. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 18:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
    I did some digging but can't find unambiguous sources for these, apart from the US Modern Rock chart position. I'll trim. Popcornfud (talk) 08:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
  • I can't find "'Creep' reached number seven on the UK Singles Chart" on the Billboard chart history provided. This should be removed unless otherwise sourced – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 18:30, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
    This is mentioned in the Randall book: "A year after its initial release, 'Creep' rocketed up to No. 7 on the U.K. singles chart." Popcornfud (talk) 08:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
    Whoops, I see PerfectSoundWhatever already sourced that. Thanks both. Popcornfud (talk) 08:12, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
  • "On 13 May 1995, a live video, Live at the Astoria (1995), was released on VHS." could you clarify that this contains music from Pablo Honey? Otherwise it seems like a random addition. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 18:35, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Critical reception & Legacy

[edit]
  • Each review listed in the {{Music ratings}} template should have its own mention in the prose as well. Calgary Herald and Select are examples of reviews lacking prose. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 18:46, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
    First I've heard of this idea. Is this stipulated in a guideline somewhere? Popcornfud (talk) 03:26, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
    I based it off of the info on the template page, which says "The template is not to be a substitute for a section in paragraph form, since a review can not be accurately boiled down to a simple rating out of five stars or other numeric score." I assumed this applied to all reviews, but feel free to object. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 03:42, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
    It's a beneficial thing to do, but I would guess that most agree it's not a requirement to pass the GA criteria. I've found a text copy of the Calgary Herald source on ProQuest. — PerfectSoundWhatever (t; c) 04:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
    Sounds fair. My only other comment left open is the first under "Release and promotion".– The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 05:00, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Growing Up (The Linda Lindas album) DYK Nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Hey man im josh talk 17:02, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Growing Up (The Linda Lindas album)

(
)
  • Source: Vinyl liner notes, NME
  • ALT1: ... that the members of American punk rock band the Linda Lindas were all under the age of eighteen when they released their first album, Growing Up? Source: Rolling Stone
  • ALT2: ... that while most of the songs on American band the Linda Lindas' first album, Growing Up, were sung in English, one track was in Spanish? Source: MTV
  • ALT3: ... that after a video of American band the Linda Lindas playing their song "Racist, Sexist Boy" in a library went viral, they went on to release their first album, Growing Up? Source: Variety
  • Reviewed:
  • Comment: These are not perfect: they can be reworded as needed for clarification and correctness, etc.
Improved to Good Article status by The Sharpest Lives (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

– The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 06:45, 17 June 2024 (UTC).

  • The article got promoted to good article status the day before the nomination, the article is long enough, no copyright concerns and all sources stated are reliable, the article is presentable and has no issues, and the hook is interesting.
    I am new to DYK reviewing, this is my first try on it, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. TheNuggeteer, (talk) 9:05, 21 June 2024 (UTC).

The Sharpest Lives (talk)

[edit]
  1. Red Hot Chili Peppers (2 tags fixed) 8 points checkY
  2. Avril Lavigne (1 unsourced statement removed) 1 point
  3. Album (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  4. Billboard Hot 100 (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  5. Prince (musician) (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  6. Kurt Cobain (1 unsourced statement removed) 1 point checkY
  7. Weezer (Blue Album) (1 unsourced statement removed) 1 point
  8. Metallica (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  9. The Wall (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  10. The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  11. Travis Mills (1 tag fixed, 1 unsourced statement removed) 5 points checkY
  12. Aerosmith (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  13. Dave Grohl (3 tags fixed) 12 points checkY
  14. The Eminem Show (1 tag fixed, 2 unsourced statements removed) 6 points
  15. Let Go (Avril Lavigne album) (2 unsourced statements removed) 2 points
  16. The Strokes (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  17. New Order (band) (1 unsourced statement removed) 1 point
  18. Atmosphere of Earth (1 tag fixed) 4 points checkY
  19. Sliver (song) (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  20. Foo Fighters (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  21. Alanis Morissette (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  22. Weezer (1 tag fixed, 1 unsourced statement removed) 5 points
  23. Pat Benatar (2 tags fixed, 2 unsourced statements removed) 10 points checkY
  24. American Idiot (song) (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  25. Kathleen Hanna (3 tags fixed) 12 points
  26. Pablo Honey (1 tag fixed) 4 points
  27. Kinder High School for the Performing and Visual Arts (1 unsourced statement removed) 1 point
Total: 121 points.

Awarded a cleanup barnstar --Adam Black talk • contribs 12:01, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

In the Darkest of Nights, Let the Birds Sing GA Review

[edit]
Passed. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) (ping me!) 20:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:In the Darkest of Nights, Let the Birds Sing/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: SupremeLordBagel (talk · contribs) 21:13, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: The Sharpest Lives (talk · contribs) 03:19, 9 June 2024 (UTC)


  • I'm doing a check for inline citations, and the article looks excellent so far! Also, there is clearly no edit warring so I'll check that off. I did a copy vio check and there are no copyright violations detected- so I'll check that off too. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 16:49, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Sorry I've taken so long to keep you updated. I have been busy. I'll try to review this ASAP. I must say, it is well-written. The tone is neutral, the sections are adequate length and keep on-topic. It's overall an interesting read! I don't think I knew anything about FtP except for "Pumped Up Kicks", so it's cool to hear about their writing process and inspiration. Anyways, time to do that source spot-check I said I'd do. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 23:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Improvements

[edit]
  • Sourcing: sources from the band are ok, per WP:SELFSOURCE, (see also WP:PRIMARY), so long as the article is not mostly based on these sources. 8/30 references are from insta/facebook/reddit, which is hardly "mostly", but you still need to be careful. On top of that, there are 2 YouTube videos cited. Not that this is a problem, I just need to double check on what the other sources say and if they are reliable too. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 23:30, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
    @SupremeLordBagel Apologies for the wait, I have been very busy and I hope this is of no inconvenience to you. I would like to say: the article looks excelent to me, but I am unsure whether it qualifies as a good article per the criteria. I am going to request a second opinion for feedback. Again, apologies for the wait and we'll see where this goes. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) 21:57, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer checklist

[edit]
GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.
    a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

Second opinion from IanTEB

[edit]

(this is my first time delivering a second opinion so I apologize if anything is weird). Since the original reviewer hasn't given a specific issue to check for, I'll look over the article and give any comments I have.

Background and development

  • I would try to paraphrase more in the first paragraph; I can give specific pointers if you would like
 Done. If there's anything in that paragraph I could improve upon, please let me know! SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 20:39, 1 July 2024 (UTC)
  • "Of the split, Foster said" - I would change Foster to "frontman Mark Foster"  Done
  • I think the second paragraph is very good! Thank you

Release and promotion

  • These sections should be placed after composition  Done
  • I would specify the exact release date within "The EP was released the following month"  Done
  • I would also specify that the Wiltern Theatre shows were in December  Done

Composition and songs

  • Link Julia Garner  Done
  • "when Isom Innis" - "when keyboardist Isom Innis"  Done
  • Link trip-hop  Done

Critical reception

  • The Daily Californian should be italicized in the Music ratings template  Done

Lead and infobox

  • The release sentence should be moved to right after the first sentence.  Done
  • Assuming that at least a few sources in the body use the abbreviation, citations aren't required for In the Darkest of Nights. If no secondary source uses it, I would remove it  Done
  • This lead should be expanded; there's no content about the title/artwork or critical reception, despite both having sections in the body
  • The lead says that multiple songs revolve around Foster and his wife, but the body only mentions one such track  Done
  • "It produced three singles" is maybe a bit inaccurate since they were are released before the EP. Maybe "it was promoted with three singles" is better?  Done
  • Mark Pontius should be mentioned in the body  Done

This is a very surface-level opinion, but if all is fixed I think the reviewer should be able to make a decision on the article. I would like to ask, though, was a spotcheck performed? If not, I would advise doing so; just checking around three sources per section is usually enough for GA. IanTEB (talk) 10:30, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello IanTEB and SupremeLordBagel - I was initially going to post here to take on the source review, but at a cursory glance I see a problem with the sourcing in that many of them are sourced from social media pages. While this is technically in line with WP:SOCIALMEDIA, I do question whether or not having 20% of the sources be from Instagram or Twitter is acceptable. I would advise that Bagel search for some sort of secondary source for a few of these if they are able to find any. Additionally, BroadwayWorld is considered generally unreliable per WP:RS/P; I understand that this is not used for an exceptional claim, though I would be cautious with using this source in the future. I'd also be cautious about using school newspapers for reviews/some claims - the article uses the Palatinate, and while I can't imagine that a quoted opinion could be seen as contentious, I would personally stay away from such publications in these cases, as nearly any student, regardless of experience, can join them, and they generally lack the sophisticated editorial oversight than established organizations have (this is just from personal experience - I know my university had students as editors. There has not been much visible discussion on using school newspapers as sources on WP, though this discussion includes the comment "School newspapers are reliable sources for facts, but not for notability").
A spot check on [2], [6], [7], [10], [15], [23], [24], and [28] comes up fine. Not sure of the credibility of Music Talkers, though - it seems that it's just the pet project of some guy, and its staff list notably has no editors listed, just "news writers" who have seemingly only written for that website aside from one writer who's written for Earmilk. joeyquism (talk) 23:20, 11 July 2024 (UTC)
IanTEB and joeyquism, thank you for your very helpful feedback. I've tried to improve the article per your suggestions and hope my efforts are satisfactory.
As for the use of school newspapers, I thought that the use of Palatinate and The Daily Californian was acceptable, as both publications have received commendations for their journalism and seem to be generally reliable (plus the claims weren't contentious). I do agree with you, though, that it is generally good to find more established sources. I've tried my best to replace some of the social media refs. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 11:38, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
Hey @SupremeLordBagel, sorry for taking so long to get back to you on this. It looks a little better as far as sourcing goes, but one thing that's sticking out to me is the Reddit AMA. I am not sure if these count as interviews that are suitable for Wikipedia. WP:RSREDDIT states that:

"Interview responses written by verified interviewees on the r/IAmA subreddit are primary sources, and editors disagree on their reliability. The policy on the use of sources about themselves applies."

The policy in question is WP:ABOUTSELF, which is something that I myself would invoke for the usage of interviews from deprecated sources like Rate Your Music, but I am not sure of the quality of a Reddit AMA here as I feel as if they lack structure. Anybody can register a Reddit account and ask a ridiculous question which could then be answered; in other words, there isn't any editorial oversight on r/IAmA. I would be more willing to pass this if you are able to justify its usage (which seems to be quite minimal to begin with - you may also want to consider if this detail is that useful) in a reply. Apologies for the pedantry or any offense I may have caused - I come with good intentions here. joeyquism (talk) 05:40, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
You make a good point. I don't think the claim was large enough to try and justify, so I've removed it and the accompanying reference. Let me know if there's anything else you think I could improve upon. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 20:55, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
Sorry for taking forever to get back to you on this once again, SupremeLordBagel - I guess I should have watchlisted this one. That should be good enough for me; well done! The Sharpest Lives, feel free to pass this article. joeyquism (talk) 19:11, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
Sounds good, passing! And thanks for the 2nd opinion joey. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) (ping me!) 20:06, 30 July 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

No Obligation DYK Nomination

[edit]
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 12:45, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

No Obligation

(
)
Moved to mainspace by The Sharpest Lives (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

– The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) (ping me!) 03:13, 17 July 2024 (UTC).

  • The hook is just a play on words with the band and the name of their album. Not an appropriate hook, see here. Propose something else. In the meantime, let's check the other criteria
General: Article is new enough and long enough
Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems

Hook eligibility:

QPQ: None required.

Overall: Cambalachero (talk) 02:00, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I will complete the review once a proper alternative hook is proposed. Cambalachero (talk) 01:51, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

@Cambalachero: whoops! I'll try some new hooks.
I hope one of these fits! Also, thanks for reviewing. – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) (ping me!) 02:42, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

ALT2 seems to be a good one. Cambalachero (talk) 13:57, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

@Cambalachero: Should I take this as passed, or do you need anything else? – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) (ping me!) 16:27, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
The green tick means that it's all ready. Our part in this is complete, now someone will eventually find that this DYK nomination is approved, move it to a temporary location, and then place it on the main page once it's its turn in the queue. Only waiting remains. Cambalachero (talk) 16:33, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
Perfect, thanks! – The Sharpest Lives (💬•✏️•ℹ️) (ping me!) 16:46, 24 July 2024 (UTC)
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