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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Crisco 1492 talk 22:45, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

DYK toolbox

Fishing cat

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  • ... that in Bangladesh, fishing cats are often confused for tiger cubs and are killed whenever they come into contact with humans?
  • ALT3: ...that the fishing cat diverged from its sister species at least 20,000 years ago?
  • Reviewed:
Improved to Good Article status by Wolverine X-eye (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has fewer than 5 past nominations.

Wolverine XI (talk to me) 09:06, 20 October 2024 (UTC).

  • Starting review--Kevmin § 17:01, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
    • The first thing I notice is that alt1 doesnt actually make sense. What are the Fishing Cat and Leopard cats diverging from? Also the MYAs are notably specific, where are they from?--Kevmin § 17:19, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
      • They diverged from a common ancestor. This needs to be added. Or would that make ALT1 too long ? – BhagyaMani (talk) 20:47, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
  • @Wolverine XI and BhagyaMani: A common ancestor of just the fishing cat or of the Fishing cat and the hybridized Leopard cat, or of the fishing and both leopard cat species? Also, the conflicting divergence estimates shouldn't be an "and" connector, they should be an "or", as they are in conflict with each other.--Kevmin § 21:15, 22 October 2024 (UTC)
  • The fisher is not part of this scenario AT ALL, but is not even a cat. The fishing cat and the leopard cat are members of the same genus, hence had a common ancestor. Estimation of genetic divergence time from this last common ancestor was performed by two different author teams and derived from two different sets of genetic material + analysis. The 1st estimate for this divergence time of 4.31–1.74 million years ago (mya) was based on mitochondrial gene segments, and the 2nd of 4.25–0.02 mya on SNP genotyping. – BhagyaMani (talk) 01:10, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
The snark is NOT appropriate, we're both aware the taxa in question here. Are you saying that the estimates are for the full genus then its also including the flat face cat and I get that two divergence dates are present, but it doesn't change that the wording "between 4.31 to 1.74 million years ago and 4.25 to 0.02 million years ago" is fallacious. The two dating results are mildly contradictory so saying "and" between them is not correct unless we are explicit about the genes involved, which the article does not do at this point. The clarification of mitochondrial and SNP genotyping is needed. I also feel that alt1 will run afowl of being to specialized for a broad audience as its currently worded.
There are also close paraphrase issues in the distribution and Behavior sections that should be dealt with. Full sections of sentences are pulled directly from the source material with no attempt at reqording.--Kevmin § 16:47, 23 October 2024 (UTC)
@Kevmin: @Wolverine XI: What would you both think about this hook:ALT3 "... that the fishing cat is threatened by the destruction of wetlands in Southeast Asia?"
.. in Southeast Asiais erroneous, because destruction -- and conversion -- of wetlands is a threat EVERYWHERE in fishing cat range. – BhagyaMani (talk) 17:48, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
And how about amending ALT1 to ALT4 "... that the fishing cat diverged from the genus Prionailurus at least 20,000 years ago?" ? – BhagyaMani (talk) 14:43, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
The close paraphrasing is dealt with, and ALT3 ALT4 hooks are sourced and more hooky for general audiences. GA is new enough and article is very well cited to neutral sourcing. For hook Alt4 @BhagyaMani: we could go with "... that the fishing cat diverged from its sister species at least 20,000 years ago?"--Kevmin § 16:47, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
I think using Prionailurus is more appropriate, as the words 'sister species' are not in the text. And I once learned that words in DYK phrasing needs to be in text. I also suggest to discard ALT1 with the details and source, the more so as this source is not the same as referenced in text. – BhagyaMani (talk) 17:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
Thats an easy fix, add the words "sister species" into the molecular dating section of the article, the term is uncontroversial. I agree that ALT1 should be discarded.--Kevmin §
Since Wolverine XI proposed ALT1, shouldn't we wait with discarding this for them to comment and agree ? Though I proposed this to them initially, before I added ALT2. – BhagyaMani (talk) 19:42, 24 October 2024 (UTC)
I didn't receive those pings, because I had changed my username (quite surprised you guys didn't notice). Rest assured, nevertheless, that I should continue using this username throughout my tenure. So I've been keeping an eye on this DYK but recently I've been dealing with the worst kind of stress you can ever imagine, so I advise you all to choose something appropriate for this DYK without my involvement. I need some much needed time to heal 😞. Wolverine X-eye (talk to me) 04:34, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
@Kevmin and BhagyaMani: Better? Green flag, yellow flag or red flag? Just let me know. Wolverine X-eye (talk to me) 20:18, 29 October 2024 (UTC)
Alt2 approved, with AGF on paywalled sourcing. no article or policy issues identified now and article appears stable. ook cited and sourced to references 11 and 44 respectively for first and second sections. Looks good to go.--Kevmin § 01:28, 30 October 2024 (UTC)
@Kevmin: Not trying to bikeshed here, but wasn't the Alt2 part about "strongly associated with wetlands" found to be a component of the original concern over copyvio? The phrase "Fishing cats are strongly associated with wetlands" is present verbatim in the IUCN report. I was also thinking that "and preys foremost on fish" reads a little weird and might be replaced with something like "and has a diet which is about 75% fish" (substantiated by paragraph 2 of 'Behaviour and ecology') or "preys mostly on fish". Your guys' call since this has already been approved. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 06:19, 31 October 2024 (UTC)
@TheTechnician27 and Kevmin: Hello everyone, I have taken into account the Technician's comment and I think that alt2 should be removed because of copyright issues. I kindly request Kevmin to reevaluate the choice to accept alt2. Wolverine X-eye (talk to me) 13:31, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
Never mind guys. I re-worded the hook as suggested. Wolverine X-eye (talk to me) 13:44, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
on the reworded Alt2 which still conforms to sourcing and is neutral in presentation.--Kevmin § 17:08, 11 November 2024 (UTC)
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