Talk:Xennials/Archive 1

Archive 1

Notability Discussion

There were previous attempts to create pages for this topic as Xennial and Generation Catalano. These terms were somewhat haphazardly referenced in both the Generation X and Millennials articles. The topic of those that identify between Gen X and Millennials has come up in the New Yorker, Slate, Huffington Post, and other publications as well. It's a topic that has come up multiple times over the last several years.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Udeezy (talk • contribs) 19:54, 22 June 2016‎

Udeezy, the majority of your sources don't even mention this neologism. Of those that do, one is by the coiner of the term and one is an obscure columnist. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 19:44, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

I understand (and expected) the concerns about the article but respectfully disagree. This is a topic that I've seen come up several times in different ways (The New Yorker article I saw today prompted me to revisit the draft I created several months ago). Those between Gen X and Millennials feel they belong to both and neither and have come up with their own definition. The concept and the various terms have appeared in the New Yorker, the Atlantic, Fast Company, and other publications. I think it qualifies as notable based on that. The concept was included in both the Gen X and Millennial articles with a laundry listing of sources. I think it should get it's own page to be fleshed out as the definition evolves. Otherwise, it will continue to be proposed and will continue needing to be updated in two places. Assuming this article is deleted, the next time it comes up will be the fourth time someone different has proposed the content is notable. I get that it's not referenced routinely in every discussion of these generations, but I think it's referenced often enough to be notable. Udeezy (talk) 20:54, 22 June 2016 (UTC)

Most of these sources don't mention "Oregon Trail Generation" but instead refer to Xennials and Generation Catalano, but both of these were apparently recently deleted. This doesn't really seem notable enough for a stand alone article yet because the sourcing isn't comparable to the other demographic cohort articles. There are no sources from demographers; no sources from sociologists, no research; not even any research from ad agencies or those trying to market to these individuals. The current sources are all basically opinion pieces, apparently from individuals in these birth years. I think this definitely warrants mention on both the Generation X and Millennials pages regarding people on the cusp feeling "in between", but the sourcing doesn't really seem enough for a stand alone article. --DynaGirl (talk) 05:45, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

not the first to have access to personal computers in schools

I previously left Cassie McClure writing for Las Cruces Sun-News claim that those on the GenX/Millennial cusp were the first to have access to personal computers at school in quotes (it needs to be quotes because it's not true), but people were editing it to a statement of fact so I removed it. Even the name of this neologism illustrates McClure's claim as false. The Oregon Trail (video game) game is a school based computer game which was originally used in schools before the cuspers described by this term were even born. It's from the early 1970s.--DynaGirl (talk) 13:19, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

1971 American videogame

I'm not sure it's appropriate to write "the 1971 American videogame Oregon Trail." While it may be true that the very first version of Oregon Trail came out in 1971, that was an extremely limited release, only played by a few hundred people. And that version was certainly not played by the "Oregon Trail Generation." Most of this generation probably played the 1985 Apple II version. I think we should revise this statement to include some of this gray-area. Howrad (talk) 03:55, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree. - Scarpy (talk) 17:20, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

While I identify with the generation this article is referring to, being from Canada I never knew of this game. Though we had a similar game on our school computers in Ontario called Northwest Fur Trader - Kisewi (talk) 16:38, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Old/Young Millennial vs Oregon Trail Generation

Recently I've seen other articles related to this topic reference the terms "Old Millennial" and "Young Millennial" (Google Trends). Just wanted to note that this may be another term used to describe this topic. Udeezy (talk) 06:10, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

This isn't the same topic. Oregon Trail Generation is described as those born during the X/Y cusp years and sources use late 70s and early 80s as birth year dates. The NYTimes author discusses different dates and discuses a different topic, specifically, old verses young Millennials, which he describes as Millennials born before 1988 verses Millennials born after 1988. He does not mention Oregon Trail at all or any of the other names for cuspers such as Generation Catalano.-DynaGirl (talk) 12:51, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

It's absolutely the same topic. The specific dates and names for generational topics are always squishy. Hence this topic existing in the first place.

I'll point to WP:NEO again here, which specifically says it's not the name, but the concept that is important. Any content regarding differences between older a s younger millennial is relevant to this topic.

I'm disappointed that you reverted my edits and removed the Old Millennial redirect. I feel they captured the concept better than the hodgepodge of various sources that you reverted to. Tying the technology, 9/11, and the financial crash together helps inform the reader why this topic is important.

If you want to find a different name and do a new redirect, that's fine, but in either case, the term Oregon Trail Generation specifically shouldn't be a requirement. Udeezy (talk) 14:24, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

after rereading WP:Neo, I propose creating a new article with a plain language title and redirecting all these names there with my previous edits.

"In a few cases, there will be notable topics which are well-documented in reliable sources, but for which no accepted short-hand term exists. It can be tempting to employ a neologism in such a case. Instead, it is preferable to use a title that is a descriptive phrase in plain English if possible, even if this makes for a somewhat long or awkward title." seems to offer the guidance here. Udeezy (talk) 14:41, 2 May 2017 (UTC)e

I suppose you could create a new article on "old millennials" but I don't think it meets GNG at this point and it would not seem appropriate to redirect this article there or to redirect other terms such as Xennials which refer to the X/Y cusp to an article about the older half of the Millennial cohort. The X/Y cusp years are not the same thing as the older half of the Millennials cohort. Also, just because a few sources have discussed contrasts between the older half of the Millennials cohort verses the younger half of the Millennials cohort, it doesn't suggest this warrants a new article. This content would seem most appropriate to incorporate into the existing Millennial page. --DynaGirl (talk) 15:28, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I think you're right about putting it in the current millennial page. Would a new section called "Potential differences between older and younger millennials" make sense (I'm not a huge fan of that specifically, maybe I'll post to the talk page there for additional ideas). Then we can redirect all of the various redirects that point here to that section. I think my overall point isn't that there is a specific term that is yet agreed upon for this idea (though Oregon Trail Generation seems to be currently most prevalent), but that there is an idea that older and younger Millennials have different traits based on their life events is prevalent and worth including in this topic. Udeezy (talk) 16:22, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Topic posted at Talk:Millennials. Udeezy (talk) 17:49, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Addressing Article Issues (US Centric and Promoting a Neologism)

This article is currently flagged with the following issues:

• The examples and perspective in this article deal primarily with the United States and do not represent a worldwide view of the subject. (November 2016)

• This article may document a neologism or protologism in such a manner as to promote it. (June 2016)

I haven't seen any articles that address the concept in a worldwide way. I don't think any of the sources specifically target this from a US perspective, but I can see why this was flagged. I think it may be difficult to remove this without non-US sources. Is it fair to include a note saying that the topic seems to be more commonly discussed in US media to remove the flag? Any other suggestions?

I'd like to think we can move past this being labeled as a neologism. From WP:NEO: "To support an article about a particular term or concept, we must cite what reliable secondary sources, such as books and papers, say about the term or concept, not books and papers that use the term." I think it's been shown that this topic has several secondary sources that show it's more than a neologism and is worthy of it's own article. Anyone agree/disagree? Udeezy (talk) 06:21, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

I think it might be reasonable to remove the Worldview tag because this is a popular press neologism from the U.S, so it doesn't seem reasonable to expect worldwide perspective. The sources discussing Oregon Trail Generation are not very strong at the point: Social Media Week, SheKnows, Las Cruces Sun-News etc. I don't agree with removing the neologism tag, but I do think removing the worldview tag is reasonable because this appears to be primarily a U.S neologism.--DynaGirl (talk) 13:07, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. The name itself is US-centric. And most Europeans would hesitate to call it either Generation Catalano or Oregon Trail Generation. Totally anecdotal, but the phenomenon is recognized and talked about in Europe too. I've heard it jokingly (with tongue firmly in cheek) called Generation Brit Pop, Generation Sega, and Generation Eurotrash (a British late night show that aired on Channel 4 in the mid 1990s, when these cuspers were in their mid teens). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:EE80:5E00:4520:6CBB:7A40:3E2D (talk) 05:08, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

If the phenomenon is also recognized outside the US, it might make more sense to use "Xennial Generation" as an article title as it's not quite as dependent on local cultural references as "Oregon Trail Generation" and seems to have gained a bit more traction in society. Note that I'm suggesting that despite not liking the name Xennial as it makes us sound like houseplants with a seasonal identity disorder. ;-) —Trilkhai (talk) 07:18, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Xennial had a page but it was deleted [1] although Xennial does redirect to this page. Considering the current page is about all the different terminology for the X/Y cusp years, seems a better title change might be "X/Y cusp".--DynaGirl (talk) 10:10, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

Apparently Xennials is another term for this "generation." - http://www.gosocial.co/people-born-1977-1983-given-new-name/ - Scarpy (talk) 07:39, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Article Name

I think that Oregon Trail Generation is the best name at the moment for this content based on google trends. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Udeezy (talk • contribs) 02:50, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

i personally like the title "Oregon Trail Generation", but the best title for this article would be the "XY Cusp" - Benjamin5152414 (talk) 05:31, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

In many newer contexts The "Oregon Trail Generation" is what is referred to as Generation Y. The original thought for GenY was that OTG would extend out to a full generation, but the next "clearly accepted" large generational group following GenX is Millennials, which leaves the weird interstitial that gets shuffled back and forth. So, it'd actually be X/M(illennial) cusp. Meanwhile, I loath that appellation almost as much as I hate GenY itself. Either makes an entire group the afterthought of another generation. But, that last is entirely personal feelings. Darker Dreams (talk) 13:56, 29 August 2016 (UTC)

The Millennials and Generation Y are terms for the same generation. The next generation is being referred to as "Generation Z" but a catchier term will probably come about to replace it as Millennials did for Y. Benjamin5152414 (talk) 04:39, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

Clicking the above Google Trends link today, it appears that "Xennial" has far surpassed "Oregon Trail Generation" as the name of this cohort. -GTBacchus^(talk) 19:20, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 17 November 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Winged Blades ^Godric 10:16, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

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Oregon Trail Generation → Xennials – It appears that "Xennial" has far surpassed "Oregon Trail Generation" as the common name of this cohort. See for example this Google trends link, and the following recent articles: [2][3][4][5]. I struggle to find recent sources using the "Oregon Trail generation" moniker. I'm suggesting "Xennials" as opposed to "Xennial" for consistency with the titling of the current page Millennials. GTBacchus^(talk) 19:27, 17 November 2017 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 02:24, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose Because the article is not about Xennials, it's about the X/Y cusp and the multiple names for X/Y cuspers and their meanings and derivations. So instead of moving it to Xennials, seems should move instead to X/Y cusp or something comparable, with all of the various names as redirects. I agree the article could use a name change because it's not just about Oregon Trail Generation, that's just the first term to meet GNG. It's about all the terms for X/Y cusp including Xennials, Generation Cantolano, Lucky Ones etc. --DynaGirl (talk) 20:51, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Is there (should there be) an article that is actually about the cohort in question, i.e., actually about Xennials? I don't necessarily disagree with your suggestion, but I'm a little puzzled by the distinction between the cusp itself and the cohort born around the cusp. Should we have two different articles for those two topics? -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:58, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

All of the names refer to the same age group and the characteristics ascribed to this age group are described in this article, so it seems there already is an article and this is it. There was previously an "Xennial" article which was deleted. [6]. Xennial and all the other names for X/Y cusp redirect here so seems this article should be moved to X/Y cusp or X/Y cuspers. --DynaGirl (talk) 21:09, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

Does any source at all use the term "X/Y cusp" or "X/Y cusper"? Why not call it what most reliable sources call it? -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:54, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Because the names keep changing. I think it’s premature to know what if any, name is going to win out. Xennials did get attention recently from a viral instagram post, but all the terms are still neologisms. Sources using all the names also use term "cusp" or "cusper". They all specify they are referring to Millennial/Generation X cusp years so seems something like X/Y cusp or Millennial/Generation X cuspers would be better name right now. --DynaGirl (talk) 01:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

I see. If the attention for "Xennial" is only from one viral Instagram post, then I definitely see your point. I don't use Instagram, but I've been seeing "Xennial" from a variety of sources for a few months now. It's more prominent that "Oregon Trail Generation", but we don't know whether it will endure. In any event, the current name seems to be one of the worse options available. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:44, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

The more I think about it.... I could get behind something like Generation X/Millennials cusp. It's succinct, descriptive, and consistent with two existing articles, Generation X and Millennials. The cohort born around the cusp hasn't really got a standard, widely attested name at this time. Choosing the winner this early in the race might be premature. Let's see what others think. -GTBacchus^(talk) 17:51, 18 November 2017 (UTC

• Oppose Because the article is not about just about Xennials, it's about the Gen X/Millennials cusp group. I am not opposed to a rename but if it is going to be renamed it needs to be more generic not more specific. --Frmorrison (talk) 14:46, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Not disagreeing; just confused.... Is "Xennials" more specific than "Oregon Trail Generation"? How are "Xennials" and "Gen X/Millennials cusp group" even different topics, that one could say it's not about one, but about the other. I thought those were just different terms for precisely the same thing. Do my questions make sense? I'd like to understand better. -GTBacchus^(talk) 15:15, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

• Merge to Millennials. I don't think there's a clearly defined group between Generation X and Millenials. power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:59, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Title of the article

The article title is a bit misleading. A "generation" is not a five or six year birth span. It may lead people to believe they are part of an "Oregon Train Generation" when they're just really on the cusp of X/Millennials. All the other generation articles are 18 to 20 birth year spans etc. Should we rename it?64.183.42.42 (talk) 20:39, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

I've seen this listed by many news organizations as a "micro-generation". I've been following the term "Xennial" since about 2014. I have to say, "Oregon Trail Generation" has only been recently used recently in a handful of articles whereas "Xennial" is more common. Just an anecdotal reference - For those who live in the Bay Area, the radio station "Live 105" plays a gameshow in the mornings that pit three age groups against one another - "Generation X" versus "Xennial" versus "Millennial"CrescentHawk (talk) 01:14, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

Page name

Analogue to digital generation is a better name, the Article name is meaningless to those outside the US/North America. There's also no mention of the rave scene, third way politics or other events that happened during this time. 90.207.21.25 (talk) 15:06, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Should this be renamed to "Generation X/Millennials cusper" Comment

Since this article is about a cusp micro-generation, not just one name for it (Oregon Trail), so should it be more general to become "Generation X/Millennials cusper"?

I'd support changing name to "Generation X/Millennial cusp". Or we could go with something shorter like "Gen X/Gen Y cusp" with redirects. I agree a name change makes since because this article discusses all the terminology for individuals born during Generation X Millenial cusp. --DynaGirl (talk) 17:25, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 5 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: procedural close for this request: there is already an open move request on the page. Please contribute to the ongoing discussion instead; if you would like to argue for "Xennial," please do so above. Dekimasuよ! 03:08, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

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Oregon Trail Generation → Xennial – Xennial seems to be the most popular term, at least as of right now, going by Google trends, and is on the rise as well (see here). vi5in^[talk] 17:28, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

To add, terms other than Xennial are geographically limited. See, for example Oregon Trail Generation on Google Trends, which is limited to the US and Canada, and Generation Catalano, which is limited to the United States only. Xennial, in contrast, has a far more diverse distribution across the world. -vi5in^[talk] 17:33, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Oppose. Note that this identical proposed move had no consenus just recently on 17 November 2017. I proposed a more generic name since there is not one single name that has enough popularity. --Frmorrison (talk) 19:40, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 1 March 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move to Xennials. There is broad support for a move away from the present title. While the proposed descriptive title did not receive substantial support, "Xennials" emerged as the best supported option. Under any title, it is important to cover all variants and alternative names that appear in the sources. Cúchullain ^t/c 14:05, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

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Oregon Trail Generation → Generation X/Millennials cusp – Since this article has been focusing on a cusp micro-generation, not just one name for it such as Oregon Trail or Xennial, it should have a more generic name like "Generation X/Millennials cusp". Frmorrison (talk) 20:43, 1 March 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 02:33, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Support - This change seems supported by the text of the article. There are multiple competing names for Generation X/Millenial cusp such as Oregon Trail Generation, Xennials and Generation Catalano. The later 2 redirect here. Seems all 3 should be redirects and title should represent more general term. Only thing is I'm not sure if it sounds better to name it Generation X/Millienial cusp or Generation X/Millenials cusp. I could support either. --DynaGirl (talk) 21:49, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Add- or Merge to Millennials- I could support merge if request to move to the more general term like Generation X/Millennial Cusp isn't approved. I don't think it would be appropriate to merge to a more specific name like Xennials or Generation Catalano because the article isn't about one of the multiple specific terms, it's about all of them. --DynaGirl (talk) 17:51, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Merge to Millennial - This article seems like WP:NEO to me. I could call any generation anything but if it's not widely used it will be pointless as an article. It might merit a small mention in Millennial, but not its own article._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 23:34, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Move to Xennial - Xennial seems to be the most popular term, at least as of right now, going by Google trends, and is on the rise as well (see here). Terms other than Xennial are geographically limited as well. See, for example Oregon Trail Generation on Google Trends, which is limited to the US and Canada, and Generation Catalano, which is limited to the United States only. Xennial, in contrast, has a far more diverse distribution across the world. I'd argue that people are more likely to find this page through Xennial rather than "Generation X/Millennial cusp". --vi5in^[talk] 20:32, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

While the term Xennial recently went viral on social media, there are multiple competing names for Generation X/Millennial cuspers. Also, there was a recent unsuccessful move request to move this article to Xennials. --DynaGirl (talk) 20:46, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

• Move somewhere I agree that "Oregon Trail Generation" is not sufficiently widely used to be a good title. "Generation X/Millenial cusp" is long and akward, but more importantly we don't have a significant number of source cites using it, so it also fails WP:NEO. "Xennials" or some variant of that seems to be best supported in the cited sources, but a quite recent move request to that did not gain consensus, and an article by that title was deleted at AfD. I am not fully convinced that the topic is notable at this time, but if it is then perhaps Xennials is the best choice after all. Yes it was rejected before, but consensus can change. If not that, then sources using some alternate name widely need to be cited. DES ^(talk)_{DESiegel Contribs} 04:21, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

• Move to Xennial Not ideal, but more commonly used than "Oregon Trail Generation", and not as limited to the US. There are clearly terms that exist for this microgeneration, so we don't need a descriptive title/Wikipedia neologism such as "|Generation X/Millennials cusp". 17:36, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
• Move to Xennial - The chief objection to moving to "Xennial" seems to be that the article isn't about the name "Xennial", but about the thing named by that term. That's incoherent to me, because the same objection would seem to apply to most articles. Descriptive names that we make up are best for when there's not a common name for the article subject, and in this case, one can argue that there's not the most well-established one. However, of the options present, there is a best choice, and it seems to be "Xennial", for reasons cited by others: increasing popular usage, not local to the US, etc. The move request above (started by myself) closed as a "no consensus", but with very little participation. I could see an argument for moving to the descriptive title because Wikipedia doesn't want to influence the choice of name that may eventually emerge from sources, but I don't find that argument particularly strong or compelling. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:24, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

• Support moving off the current as a misleading title. As a game and a commercial product, it needs to be widely disambiguated from the far more significant topic of Oregon Trail and the generation that included hundreds of thousands of pioneers, and their children who might also be considered the Oregon Trail generation. The Oregon Trail (video game) is clearly not about the real Oregon Trail. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:23, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

More than 400,000 pioneers traveled its trails in the boom years between 1840 and 1860

Don't a lot of the "Xennial" traits also apply to "young Millennials" even?

I'm 23 and I remember still having dial up, rotary phones, Oregon trail, Vhs, etc. when I was a kid in the early 2000s and so do many other people my age, yet people in their 30s tell me that "No I'm not a Millennial, I'm a Xennial. You're a Millennial because you don't remember those things" or "You have to be born between 1977 and 1985 to know those things". Are my memories of those things false? Why do 30somethings act like the early 2000s were the same as the late 2000s?--73.52.114.170 (talk) 15:30, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

The stuff in the section for "Characteristics and traits" is attributed as statements by specific publications or journalists/news bloggers. Unfortunately, we don't have anything yet from social scientists who use data to isolate traits particularly relevant to these cuspers. Currently, everything in the "traits" section is attributed to who said it and is not presented as an objective fact. The section is basically just opinions of individual cuspers at this point. --DynaGirl (talk) 03:24, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

I removed the recently added content referenced to Reddit and Quora because these are user generated sources which do not meet Wikipedia's criteria for reliable sources. DynaGirl (talk) 23:55, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

Neologism vs demographic cohort

Xennials is currently a popular press neologism. As of yet, it's not included in research by notable demographers/researchers. All of the sources are popular press currently, with no sourcing from researchers/demographers. We should use language which supports current sourcing, especially in lead. --DynaGirl (talk) 15:43, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

The point is, Wikipedia articles don't start with "Xxx is a term for yyy." That's just bad writing, and should be avoided on Wikipedia. The article is not about the term "Xennials", it's about the actual Xennials, a demographic of people born at a particular period of time, for which there are multiple different terms. And yes, it's a demographic in the sense that it's a particular sector of the population, regardless of whether demographers use the concept or not. Other acceptable intros would be something like, "Xennials are the sector of the population born..." or "Xennials are people born..." Feel free to come up with a better intro, but please stop re-inserting the "term for" language.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:20, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Generational articles are my primary area on Wikipedia, and this is currently the standard format for articles on generational terms which aren't part of the main recognized demographic cohorts such as Baby boomers, Generation X, Millennials etc. Please see Generation Snowflake, Generation Jones, Me Generation, Strawberry generation etc. Demographic refers to statistical analysis of cohorts. Currently there are no references in this article which include any statistical analysis of Xennials. Xennials are not currently a demographic cohort studied by researchers, marketers or demographers. It's currently a popular press neologism discussed in Social Media Week and GOOD Magazine. This might change at some point, but at this point I think we should follow the current sourcing and existing pattern for articles on generational terms. Add- also, to clarify, I haven't been reinserting new wording. I've simply restored the consensus wording which has been in the opening sentence of the lead for over a year, which was changed without discussion and then opened this discussion. I see no consensus to change this wording. --DynaGirl (talk) 22:02, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

The fact that other articles also include bad style is no reason to repeat the error here - it means those other articles need to be fixed, too. WP:ISAWORDFOR and WP:REFERS explain why this is bad style and what to do to avoid it. A local consensus (let alone one person) doesn't override Wikipedia-wide style guidelines. I've suggested several alternatives at this point, any of which would resolve the problem.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:32, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I disagree that it's bad style. The current wording seems consistent with openings for other notable neologisms. It does not use "refers to" [7] The current article is about the term primarily, although there is a smaller section that mentions traits various op-ed writers/newsbloggers have attributed to these cuspers. However, putting "demographic" or "population" in lead would not seem to represent the current sources, because there's no sources that study the cuspers as a demographic or population. Currently the sources are opinion pieces from individual cuspers. Nothing from sociologists, demographers, marketers etc. --DynaGirl (talk) 15:12, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

LOL, it literally uses the phrase "is a [neologistic] term". That's the very definition of the bad style WP:ISAWORDFOR and WP:REFERS say to avoid. The article is not about the term, which is clear from the fact that it was titled after a different term until a few days ago. And even if it were, the term would be italicized per WP:WORDSASWORDS. Again, I've offered several suggestions, any of which would fix this problem, and several of which avoid the "demographic" language you find objectionable.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:25, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand how a title change form Oregon Trail Generation to Xennials changes that these are both neologistic terms for X/Y cuspers, with Xennials arguably being slightly more popular currently. That these terms are neologisms seems clear in the text of the current article and text of article before the name change, and throughout the edit history of the article, and also on the article talk page, which frequently debates the notability of this neologism. Not opposed to italicizing the term. --DynaGirl (talk) 15:57, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Not sure how I can be any clearer than I have been. The article is about "X/Y cuspers", people born at a particular time. It's not and never has been about the name "Xennials", which is one of several terms for these people, and not the one originally used as the title. As such, the intro needs to be written that way. A later sentence can explain that the terms are neologisms.

Now, is there anything objectionable in the suggestions "Xennials are the sector of the population born..." or "Xennials are people born..."?--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:24, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Have you read the full text of the current article [8], the edit history or this article, which includes an admin tagging it as neologism, or this article talk page which includes multiple editors debating the notability of this neologism and where this neologism would be best covered on wikipedia? This clearly seems to be about a neologism. We'd need additional sourcing to support your suggested changes. I do not think there is sourcing currently available which supports your suggested changes. --DynaGirl (talk) 16:45, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Who said it wasn't a neologism? The issue is that it's not about the neologism, it's about the people the neologism refers to. The suggestions are supported by the same sources as the current phrases (ie, all of them).--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:50, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

The current lead makes clear this refers to people and the current article is primarily about the various terms and their origins/histories. My opposition to stating in opening sentence of lead that Xennials are demographic or population etc, and then only later mentioning the terms are neologisms, stems from the sources. The current sources are opinion pieces by non-notable journalists or newsbloggers. The only quality secondary source currently is from Merrian-Webster which describes Xennials as a notable neologism in their "Words We're Watching" section.--DynaGirl (talk) 17:01, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

This article should be written the same as though it were titled "Generation X/Millennials cusp(er)". Several terms for this cohort are described. This article is not a dictionary entry like in Merrian-Webster. If the article were about the term it would not start with "(also known as the Oregon Trail Generation and Generation Catalano)". Imagine if it were written: "Xennials, who are also known as the Oregon Trail Generation, are people who...." I believe it is proper to use the word "neologism" under the terminology section. --Kolya Butternut (talk) 00:31, 25 January 2019 (UTC) This article is not about a neologism. This article is about a cohort which is referred to by a neologism. Many articles have an etymology section; this or the "terminology" section would be the appropriate place to describe the term itself as a neologism. --Kolya Butternut (talk) 00:49, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

Demographics

This article from Timeline cites CDC population data: [9] The linked CDC report is here: [10] Xennials "represent a small population among a time period of record-low birth rate in America. There were roughly 25.1 million people born in the U.S. between 1978 and 1984, representing only 36% of all Gen X births, or in 1984, merely 10.6% of the entire American population. (Multiple factors contributed to lower birth rates at this time, including more women entering the workforce, the oil crisis, higher crime rates, and a shaky economy.) On the other hand, beginning in 1977, Xennials mark the beginning of an upswing in birth rate, at 15.1%, compared to Gen X’s low point, a 14.6% birth rate in 1975 and 1976, respectively." --Kolya Butternut (talk) 05:34, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

XY Cusp articles

Some forgotten articles could get reincorporated into the Xennials article.

MTV Generation[11]

Cold Y Generation[12] --Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:10, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Those are not reliable sources. Those are old wikipedia pages consisting of what appears to be WP:Original Research. The MTV generation one is apparently old user draft space link. It has refs (but they do not link to what they claim to link to, and it appears to include made up or at the very least inaccurate content. For example, I've read a lot of Strauss/Howe work and they do not use term MTV Generation in relation to X/Y cuspers, although they do make references to MTV, but not as claimed in that draft space link whose refs do not link to what they claim to link to, but rather as being the pivotal cultural occurrence that differentiated Baby Boomers from Generation X (i.e according to Strauss/Howe, when MTV began in 1981, Boomers were't the audience, and they couldn't relate to it, and they realized there was a new young adult generation (Generation X which was still unnamed). According to Strauss/Howe, they realized Boomers weren't the generation of young adults anymore, it was Generation X (which Strauss/Howe called the 13th Generation). The Cold Y Generation link is completely unreferenced original research which has been deleted/redirected. We can't incorporate old unreferenced or inaccurately referenced user space drafts into this article and we can't incorporated deleted unreferenced original research into this article. DynaGirl (talk) 04:04, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Like, there is "information" on these "pages" on wikipedia that is not in the Xennials article. Regardless of whether that information is original research or referenced it is information that can be researched and probably added to the Xennials article when sources are found. The names "MTV Generation" and "Cold Y Generation" may or may not be relevant. These links show the concept seems to have existed well before the GOOD Magazine article. After a quick Google search of "XY Cusp" which was written in the "MTV Generation" article I found a reference to a shopping study using XY Cusp as a cohort two years before the GOOD article: [13] When you start off by calling my links "unreliable sources" or reverting edits without discussion it's dismissive without moving things forward. Or worse, it could turn editors away from discovering exciting new information. Did you even check the links in the MTV Generation article? There's a reference from the Mayo Clinic in 2005 about the Gen Xer/Millenial cuspers: [14] And this article from the San Francisco Gate in 2006 which describes a political poll of 1,400 Americans by the New Politics Institute including the cohort of "Cusp Millenials". [15]. And who knows what other information can be found directly or indirectly by reading these old Wikipedia articles. How about this; you state that Strauss/Howe do not use the term MTV Generation in relation to X/Y cuspers. What do they have to say about X/Y cuspers? --Kolya Butternut (talk) 05:23, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

It's true, there were a lot of useful things in the old versions of the MTV Generation articles. In addition to the ones already mentioned, this is pretty good

Frank N. Magid Associates, Inc (2006-03-22). "A New Survey Comparing Political Attitudes Between Generations". Archived from the original on 2006-09-08.

Kolya, keep up the good work! - Scarpy (talk) 07:01, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Koyla, regarding your question of what Strauss/Howe say about X/Y cuspers, they don't seem to say much on the topic. The old Wikipedia draft page you linked to unfortunately appears to have dishonestly (or at least inaccurately) attributed something to Strauss/Howe which isn't attributable to them. Strauss/Howe believe Millennials birth years start specifically in 1982. Apparently this coincides with a time of increased protection of children and things like "Baby on Board" car stickers in the U.S, and they believe there was a rather abrupt cultural shift from under protecting children, to society prioritizing and being highly protective of children, which differentiates Generation X from Millennials. DynaGirl (talk) 14:04, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Since it's come up, I'll tell you it's not surprising to me that there is so much criticism of Strauss-Howe for its lack of rigorous empirical evidence. With all the language of archetypes and casting generations as heroes, prophets, artists and nomads who variously experience unravelings and awakenings, if you didn't know better you might mistake it for mythopoeia.

If you start reading the Strass-Howe Wikipedia article with the question in mind "why are these useful distinctions?" I believe you'll have a hard time trying to scrape together an answer. The best I can come up with is Strass-Howe predicts that sometimes there are catastrophes that cause a crisis that causes a response that is followed by a recovery then sometimes that recovery sets the stage for another catastrophe that starts the cycle over again, and when a catastrophe happens different generations will respond in different ways (but it's not at all clear to me if/what they're attempting to predict there -- at least not from what's in the article). It explains more than it predicts or guides.

While all WP:RS deserves due weight, there is a strong argument to be made here that marketing and HR scholarly sources have more encyclopedic value. They have a real interest in the usefulness of generational distinctions and economic incentives to get them right. They research this area because they have quantifiable goals to improve sales and organizational stability... real world stuff. - Scarpy (talk) 20:30, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

"mythopoeia"...nice! 2606:6000:6111:8E00:C013:6217:389B:B9CB (talk) 20:46, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Self-identifying as Xennials

I don't like this sentence in the lead: "People who identify with Xennials, Oregon Trail Generation or Generation Catalano do so because they do not feel they fit within the typical definitions of Generation X or Millennials." I understand that the concept of this microgeneration has been created because people have felt they don't fit in the other generations, but I don't like the idea that people can choose their generation based on how they feel, regardless of what year they were born. It seems like this has lead wiki editors to want to change the date ranges for xennials. In the future if enough people identify as xennials outside of the birth years of the late 70s and early 80s the years could change, but I still think the language of "identifying as xennnial" should be edited from this article. I have changed the sentence to: "This microgeneration was identified by people who felt that they did not fit within the typical descriptions of Generation X or Millenials." --Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:22, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

This is well referenced and supported by article text. This is largely about self-identification. Some GenX/Millennial cuspers identify as strictly Millennials or strictly as members of Generation X, but apparently many don't. They feel like they don't fit neatly in either, hence the concept of "Xennials". DynaGirl (talk) 15:53, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, Are you saying you believe that the concept of Xennials is largely about self-identification? I disagree. I understand that self-identification is supported by article text, but as I've stated, the names for this cusp generation were created by people through self-identification, but now that the names and the concept exist, self-identification should not be the main way to describe Xennials in the lead. I had edited the article text to be consistent with my changes to the lead but you reverted those edits as well. Would you like to discuss the source text? The reference in this talk page regarding demographics, for instance, does not discuss self-identification. Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:15, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Dan Woodman does not describe self-identification in his article for The Conversation. In his interview with Mamamia, he does describe his own experience, but this would be the same if a sociologist who was a Baby boomer described his own generation. So, when he was interviewed he spoke in the first person, but in his own article he wrote from a non-personal perspective with no references to self-identification. I think the Xennials lead should be changed to be consistent with that style. Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:21, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm saying the references describe it as being about self-identification and as about not feeling they fit into the main generational categories. DynaGirl (talk) 18:39, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, I'll try to be clear:

* Many of the references describe the Xennials concept through self-identification.

* Many of the other references also describe the Xennials concept without discussing self-identification.

* The only article written by Dan Woodman, who is the main authority referenced throughout this article, does not discuss self-identification.

* The only scholarly article specifically discussing Xennials does not discuss self-identification.

* The concept of this article exists regardless of what Xennials themselves think. Other Wikipedia articles that discuss "self-identification" are articles on sexual identity and political identity, etc. This makes sense because these concepts are dependent on thoughts and feelings. Xennials are a demographic defined by observable characteristics connected to birth years, regardless of what one thinks or feels. This is supported by the references.

I feel like you are giving more weight to "popular press" pieces than to articles written by scholars and researchers, contradicting yourself earlier in this talk page. Am I missing something? I hear you repeating yourself but I'm not hearing you elaborate on your thoughts while discussing what I have said to you. Kolya Butternut (talk) 21:14, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

The lede sentence in question sounds fine. According to Wikipedia policy, ledes don't need to be heavily referenced. The main generational categories (in the sidebar like "baby boomer" etc.) have existed like that for years, some for decades, so status quo is the operating principle. In fact, the Millennials' page was created in 2001. Xennial is clearly not a main generational catagory, it's more like "Generation Jones". 2606:6000:6111:8E00:AD57:6F50:A5F1:2067 (talk) 16:29, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

You didn't address anything I said. My point is that the second sentence of the lead (as of this writing) is not a good summary of the Xennials concept. Kolya Butternut (talk) 22:31, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Xennial Date Ranges

I've seen only a few variations for the date ranges of Xennials, but shouldn't we include other minor variations that are backed with credible citations or research as opposed to just running with the current mainstream definition that is only highlighted by a few possibly conjectured popular media sources (i.e. 1977-1983)? Any person that performs a quick google search can easily discover this issue. Xennials, as far as I have seen, can be stretched as far back as 1975 to as late as 1985 or 1987. Citations, research and references can certainly be provided (and should be for any variations). — Preceding unsigned comment added by SolomonSalem (talk • contribs) 17:10, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

We publish what reliable sources say, and currently several sources including Merrian Webster dictionary are using 1983 as end date. An exception is Business Insider which used 1985 in one publication and this is mentioned in the article. I haven't seen any reliable sources for 1975.DynaGirl (talk) 02:11, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

There are more 1985 sources that should be cited. I have not seen 1987 nor 75. SexyKick 01:52, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

@SexyKick:, Merriam-Webster refers to 1975 to 1982 in the Buzzfeed article it links to from the highlighted text "as a group unto itself." (It also states 1977 to 1983 within the article itself). The book, When Generations Collide, uses 1975 to 1980 for "Generation X/Millenial Cuspers." [16] I feel like there are later dates by obscure sources too. Kolya Butternut (talk) 22:51, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

The January 12, 2019 edit identifies 1973 as the starting point according to Sarah Eaglesfield. In her twitter account @zenxv she describes herself as an xennial, but I have found no articles about xennials mentioning her. Should this edit be deleted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kolya Butternut (talk • contribs) 03:59, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

How do I say it?

Just discovered this new word. Had a debate with the other person in the room about how to say it. Can we have pronunciation guide please? HiLo48 (talk) 23:30, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

I pronounce it with an initial \z\, like the "x" in xylophone, and the -ennial is just like the last two syllables in Millennial.--Frmorrison (talk) 18:33, 11 June 2018 (UTC)

I pronounce it "ex-ennial". I see no reason to think that a standard received pronunciation exists. -GTBacchus^(talk) 20:17, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you @GTBacchus:; it seems like "ex-ennial" is the first pronunciation, but I've heard it both ways on the news: [17] and then the same host pronounces it "zennial" at 5 minutes in. This will only be a problem if "Zennials" takes off as a cusp for Millenials and Gen Z. Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:56, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

I also believe it is pronounced "ex-ennial". As a portmanteau of Generation X and Millennials, this pronunciation seems to make sense. DynaGirl (talk) 14:19, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it's pronounced "X" "ennial", just like how you pronounce Millennialz. The other side of the Millennial's cusp generation. 1996-2004 SexyKick 03:02, 12 November 2018 (UTC)

Synthesis & Original Research

Kolya Butternut & Scarpy, Regarding the last 4 talk page sections, please just make sure any content added to the article isn’t WP:Original Research or WP:synthesis: Please see this from WP:Original Research:

The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist.[a] This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources.

Also from WP:synthesis:

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.

It looks like the sources linked above range from good sources to very bad. The very bad are the links to the old deleted/redirected Wikpedia pages, with no references or claims not supported by the sources cited. Other bad sources include self published websites or blogs. The reliable sources which specifically mention Xennials (or Generation Catalano or Oregon Trail Generation) seem really good. The reliable sources already in the current Xennials Wikipedia article do explicitly say that Generation Catalano and Oregon Trail Generation are synonyms for Xennials, and they use the same birth dates, so using sources which mention any of these names ins’t Original Research. This isn’t the case with some older sources like Lancaster's When Generations Collide, which also discusses cuspers. Lancaster doesn’t mention Xennials etc at all, and they use different birth dates for their grouping (1975-1980). As far as I’m aware, no reliable published source has linked Lancaster’s work and their different birth years grouping of 1975-1980 to Xennials. Another example of Original Research would be going through government documents on various birth years and pulling out information on Xennials birth years yourself, when the sources used do not identify Xennials birth years as a separate grouping. DynaGirl (talk) 13:23, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

@DynaGirl: You would benefit from carefully re-reading WP:OR and WP:SYN. What you're saying here is incorrect. There are several reliable sources that point out the variance in generational/micro-generational birth range definitions, just because there's not universal agreement on exactly the same date ranges doesn't make it WP:SYN so long as the differences are stated. Lancaster and Stillman obviously didn't use the term 'Xennials' because it wasn't coined until 2014 and their book was published in 2009. As I have pointed out previously, and as Cúchullain put very specifically "this article is not about the word 'Xennials,' it's about the people this term refers to" which are people born during the Generation X/Millennial cusp years, typically defined as the late 1970s to the early 1980s. I don't see how your objections here are any different than the ones that were raised and discussed four days ago. - Scarpy (talk) 17:10, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Scarpy, I'm just saying we need a reliable source reference to connect the different birth year grouping used by Lancaster in When Generations Collide and the birth year grouping referred to as Xennials. I agree birth years can vary for any generation or "micro-generation" (and they already do vary for Xennials, with most sources stopping Xennials birth years at 1983, but some going up to 1985). But we can't just decide on our own that what Lancaster is discussing is the same thing as Xennials, especially when it's different birth years, and no reliable sources (at this point) makes the connection between the two or how/why the birth years changed. DynaGirl (talk) 18:01, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

If you're going to repeat the same argument, I'll repeat the same response. Xennials is one of many terms for Generation X/Millennial cuspers, different researchers use different age ranges when studying generations, including Generation X/Millennial cuspers. Stating the different ranges is exactly what's done in every other article and I suspect you know this just as I do. See Silent_Generation#Date_and_age_range_definitions, G.I._Generation#Definition, Baby_boomers#Definition, Generation_X#Birth_dates, Millennials#Date_and_age_range_definitions and Generation_Z#Date_and_age_range_definition. - Scarpy (talk) 20:47, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Scarpy, Xennials is one of the many names for the Generation X/Millennial cusp, but there was a recent consensus against moving this article to Generation X/Millennials cusp. The article was instead moved to Xennials, which is more specific. The reliable sources explicitly connect Generation Catalano and Oregon Trail Generation to Xennials and they all use the same birth years. Find a reliable source that makes a connection between Lancaster's earlier birth year grouping of 1975-1980 and Xennials and then add it to the article, based on the sourcing, not based on your personal opinions and analysis. This seems especially necessary because Lancaster doesn't use comparable birth years. Hopefully such a source would provide some sort of explanation of how/why the dates changed. In the meantime, the more general cusper article is currently a stub and it seems like you've found a lot of really good info which could be used to expand upon and improve that stub. DynaGirl (talk) 22:43, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, You state that the reliable sources all use the same birth years? What are you talking about? They all look different to me. Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:04, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Kolya, I'm not saying the reliable sources all use the exact same birth years. What I'm saying is the reliable sources use birth dates of late 70s to early 80s to describe Xennials (and Oregon Trail Generation and Generation Catalano) and the reliable sources connect these topics explicitly, but they don't all use the exact same dates. A few reliable sources extend Xennials to 1985. Lancaster describes an earlier birth year grouping of 1975-1980 and no reliable sources connect Lancaster's grouping to Xennials, or explain the shift to later birth years from Lancaster's grouping to Xennials. DynaGirl (talk) 23:16, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, There are sources with earlier birth years. Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:32, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

I've never seen any reliable sources which end Xennials as early as 1980. DynaGirl (talk) 23:35, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl What?? The years of "The Lucky Ones" aren't relevant because the "reliable" sources that refer to it don't state its years? What is happening... Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:59, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Koyla, I'm really not sure what you're responding to, but it doesn't appear to be my above comments. I wasn't referring to The Lucky Ones, but The Lucky Ones are mentioned in the current article. The sources explicitly connect The Lucky Ones to Xennials. They also use comparable birth dates of late 70s to early 80s [[18]].DynaGirl (talk) 00:05, 3 February 2019 (UTC)]

DynaGirl The Lucky Ones refers to 1978 to 1980. Kolya Butternut (talk) 00:10, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

This reliable source uses late 70s to early 80s for The Lucky Ones and explicitly connects The Lucky Ones to Xennials. Please see: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/anna-garvey/the-biggest-and-best-difference-between-millennials_b_7438370.html. DynaGirl (talk) 00:16, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl...yes, and the article it links to says 1978-1980...Kolya Butternut (talk) 00:22, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

When I click that link it goes to a website that says it's under construction, which does not appear to mention The Lucky Ones currently, but if you can find a reliable source for The Lucky Ones that uses 1978-1980 as birth years, add it to the article, but that span seems rather short to me, even for a "micro-generation". DynaGirl (talk) 00:29, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl Old pages are saved on archive.org's waybackmachine [19] So, clearly an XY Cusp cohort of 1975 to 1980 is within the current grouping. Kolya Butternut (talk) 00:39, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Ok, and as repeatedly stated above, Lancaster in When Generations Collide, uses 1975-1980. Please just find a reliable source that connects Lancaster's grouping of 1975-1980 to Xennials. Hopefully such a source will explain the date change shift. Also, if you're finding reliably sourced general information on cuspers, please consider adding this to the more general Cuspers article as it is currently a stub which needs expanding. DynaGirl (talk) 00:54, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

@DynaGirl: as far as I can tell you're the only person who thinks this is necessary or thinks a lack of it represents WP:SYN. If you think it's necessary, the burden of proof is on you to explain why the date ranges for Xennials need to be treated differently than the date ranges for every other article written about generations. - Scarpy (talk) 01:03, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

@DynaGirl:, @Scarpy:, Merriam-Webster links to the Buzzfeed article with the range 1975-1982, and Susan Singer of "The Lucky Ones" uses 1978-1980. I don't have a source which uses the modern terms and specifically 1975-1980. Kolya Butternut (talk) 01:10, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Lancaster and Stillman cusper ranges

FYI: Lancaster and Stillman give ranges for three sets of cuspers, the Generation Xer/Millennial is the only one that they give as an approximate range. e.g. Traditionalist/Baby Boomer (born 1940-1945), Baby Boomer/Generation Xer (born 1960-1965), Generation Xer/Millennical (born approximately 1975-1980). Screen cap of the relevant text from each section: https://imagebin.ca/v/4VsmMruKjA8H - Scarpy (talk) 17:39, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Recent addition of "microgeneration" to opening sentence of article

I removed the recent addition of "microgeneration" to the opening sentence, because "microgeneration" is not actually a word in the English language. At least not in the sense it is being used in the recent additions. "Microgeneration" does not mean mini generation of people. It actually means "the generation of electricity or heat on a small scale." [20]. Also please see Wikipedia page for microgeneration. Sure, a viral Instagram post about Xennials and a websites and what appear to be student papers call Xennials a "micorgeneration" but "microgeneration" isn't yet a recognized word in the English language with respect to people, and therefore should not be used by Wikipedia until it is, except maybe in a direct quote, attributable to source, and not in the opening sentence of the lead. Xennials is currently a neologism. This is well sourced and should not be removed from the lead. Maybe at some point it will grow beyond a neologism, but according to Merriam-Webster, Xennials was included in their recent "Words We're Watching" section which discusses new words which are increasingly being used, but which do not yet meet criteria for a dictionary entry. The only notable academic currently referenced in the article is sociologist, Dan Woodman, who says "the 'Xennials' must be taken with several grains of salt. There isn't yet any strong academic evidence for the grouping, although clearly the idea resonates with a lot of people who felt left out by the usual categorizations." DynaGirl (talk) 20:39, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

@DynaGirl:, @Scarpy:, @Cuchullain:, We are approaching an edit war over the use of the word "neologism" or "term" in the opening sentence versus using language to describe the concept of this demographic cohort. There is also disagreement over whether there are any scholarly sources. I will take "microgeneration" out of the opening sentence and include it elsewhere in a direct quote attributable to source. I will remove the reference to the University of Dayton Law Review article which has yet to be published. Please note, however, that this is not a student paper; this was written by an adjunct professor at the Stetson University College of Law who is also the associate director of the law library. There is one published scholarly source (that I have access to), and that is the article in Industrial and Commercial Training. The writer states "Very few academic articles on generational differences mention cusp generations and none address their unique opportunities for organizations in the workplace." That would suggest that up until this article was written there were no academic articles describing xennials, but now there are. And as I have noted, there are more which are soon to be published. --Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:34, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

But you actually need a references for demographic cohort. Xennials is a term recently coined by Good magazine that was fueled by a Viral instagram post and journalists and newsbloggers have written about it. This isn't yet studied by demographers, statisticians, sociologists outside very obscure papers who basically just say it hasn't been studied. If over time there are references from demographers or if over time there is statistical analysis of Xennials (which is needed for cohort), then that content should be added to the body of the article first, and then if it become due weight, it should be added it to the lead. But it's really not appropriate to just keep changing the opening sentence of the lead like this when it's not supported by body of article or the by the references. Also, the article you added for microgeneration says it's not peer reviewed and appears to be from a real estate conference. I suppose it's as good as the various magazines and websites which make up the bulk of the current text, maybe better, if it is attributed to source, but I don't think we can use this to make a statement of fact about formation of "microgeneration", (which isn't even a recognized word in this sense yet), but rather present this as a statement made by this author writing for the conference. DynaGirl (talk) 02:16, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

You removed lines which I have a reference for. The Melissa Kempf Taylor article is the reference for: "Xennials are the microgeneration caught between the end of Generation X and the beginning of the Millennial generation who have their own collective personality. Xennials 'merge the ballpoint pen and computer mouse.'” Xennials simply are a "demographic." This is the concept that is described in this article. If you feel that the generation described in this article is not notable then it simply shouldn't be an article. The fact is that this article describes a demographic. According to Merriam-Webster, the word demographic means: "the statistical characteristics of human populations (such as age or income) used especially to identify markets." For instance, people born between 1977 and 1983 are a demographic. There is no need for an academic study for this to constitute a demographic. By definition the subject of this article meets the criteria. Your objections to the word "cohort," however, are more valid. Merriam-Webster: "a group of individuals having a statistical factor (such as age or class membership) in common in a demographic study." Note the word "study." Still, the Melissa Kempf Taylor article does identify Xennials as a cohort. You describe this article as "obscure." What is your understanding of Wikipedia's criteria for a reliable source? Have you actually read this article? Have you deleted information from an article you haven't read? Regarding your reinsertion of the word "neologism," I feel you are engaging in an edit war. As has been said, this article is about a concept not a word. The lead is supported by the body, but you've undone my edits to the body. "Many people who were born on the cusp of named major generations." This line supports the term "cusp generation" in the lead. This line is supported by the Melissa Kempf Taylor article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kolya Butternut (talk • contribs) 03:31, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

This was pointed out to me on my talk page, so here I am. I will say, much of my commentary in Template talk:Generations Sidebar applies here. DynaGirl, even when/if you're right, you do a lot of shifting goalposts, your criticisms are excessively captious, and I will say again you have a sense of WP:OWNership when it comes to these pages. When Generations Collide does discuss Generation X/Millennial cuspers as a demographic cohort (although where this standard comes from as a kind of notability guideline I can't say, it looks like your invention). Unless you want to nitpick semantics about "Generation X/Millennial cuspers" vs. "Xennials" vs. other terminology (Most people are using Xennials because it's three syllables and the meaning is fairly obvious in context from the word, whereas Generation X/Millennial cuspers is 12 syllables and perhaps less obvious in it's lack of parsimony), what you're saying appears to be incorrect.

To the second second point, reading the about page for the Industrial and Commercial Training I see "All submissions are subject to the double-blind peer review process. Contributions may be conceptual, literature-based or empirical (both quantitative and qualitative contributions are invited). Case studies are also welcome, but should highlight the outcomes and benefits associated with particular practices." I don't see anything contradicting this in the article, but you're welcome to point it out if I missed it.

Regarding the term "microgeneration," it's used in the context it was used in the article in several places (sometimes with a hyphen, sometimes without): Business Insider, HuffPost, Vogue, again in Business Insider, USA Today and probably others if I cared to dig in to it. If you believe someone would mistake the term in the lede for "small-scale generation of heat and electric power by individuals," then I'd propose a micro-generation as a compromise that should be immediately obvious to all readers in the context of the article... It's about as ambiguous as the term "generation" is in context.

If micro-generation is too potentially flummoxing for readers, I have to say I like the term "cultural generation" as much if not more. It fits with a definition used in Wiktionary most relevant here: A specific age range in which each person in that range can relate culturally to one another. - Scarpy (talk) 03:49, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Scarpy, DynaGirl: "Micro-generation" is just a made up word right? The meaning is confusing. It's like saying an "orange-blue" car is driving down the street. Why not be more precise with the language on this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:6000:6111:8E00:C013:6217:389B:B9CB (talk) 18:38, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

And as you mentioned before, the Finnish study shows that Xennials are a studied cohort. Packaging Value by Generation--Results of a Finnish Study --Kolya Butternut (talk) 06:05, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Another one I missed before - The organizational value of Xennials: A microgeneration placed to smooth workplace tension - Scarpy (talk) 18:26, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Responding to the tag. Looks like the edit war has started. For what it's worth, I tend to agree with Scarpy. There's no reason that Xennials should have to be a "studied demographic cohort" to call them by the perfectly correct and well understood term "cohort", or similar. It would also appear that even by this arbitrary standard, Xennials are a studied cohort according to the references above. DynaGirl's edits to the intro have result in some frankly bad writing. The issue with the into "Xennials is a neologism for people born during the Generation X/Millennial cusp years..." is that this article is not about the word Xennials, it's about the people this term refers to. They're a cohort, a demographic, subset of people, or whatever you want to call them; they are not a word. There's also no reason to point out that the word is a neologism in the lead. The lead should be something like:

Xennials are the demographic [or cohort, etc] born during the Generation X/Millennial cusp years, typically from the late 1970s to the early 1980s.

I also highly recommend that both Dynagirl and Kolya stop reverting each other so that measures to stop the edit war won't be required.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:41, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't see your comment before I made more changes where I used direct references I thought might satisfy Dynagirl. I'll discuss all future potentially disputed edits here first. --Kolya Butternut (talk) 15:00, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut, I do think "cross-over generation" as a hyphenated word in quotes is better than microgeneration, because the current definition of microgeneration actually has nothing to do with people. Honestly, one of my major concerns with your edits is that they are consistently to the opening sentence of lead, and not reflected by the body of the article. The lead is suppose to summarize the body of the article, so I just added the explanation from sociologist Dan Woodman regarding his usage of "cross-over generation" to the body of the article as well, so that it's not only in the lead. DynaGirl (talk) 15:21, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, I had added "cross-over generation" to the body. I didn't feel like it was necessary to expand on the concept of "cross-over generation" because it's a straight-forward phrase used by Dan Woodman to describe a demographic on the cusp of generations, which the summary repeatedly describes. I feel that my edits to the lead have been reflected by the body of the article. Xennials are described by dates of birth; this by definition makes them a demographic and a cohort. Even if this isn't specifically stated in the summary, the references explain this in detail, but I think your main concerns are that you disagree with the words "demographic" and "cohort" and you don't consider many of the sources to be reliable. You have expressed that you find Dan Woodman to be an authority, and now that my edit quotes him you have agreed to it. I would prefer, however, to include the words "demographic cohort" in the lead in order to make the article more consistent with the other major generation articles which begin with "...are the demographic cohort." Generation X uses "cohort" in the lead and does not explain the concept of term; it is simply used repeatedly in the body of the article. I expect the other major generation articles follow the same pattern. I think a good compromise is the lead: "Xennials (also known as the Oregon Trail Generation and Generation Catalano) are the 'cross-over generation' on the cusp of the Generation X and Millennial demographic cohorts, typically born between the late 1970s and the early 1980s. This microgeneration was identified by people who felt that they did not fit within the typical descriptions of Generation X or Millenials."

We could add a "Demographics" section to the article to show the approximate size of the Xennial generation. "There were roughly 25.1 million people born in the U.S. between 1978 and 1984." I think this would be a goood addition, but the word "demographic" fits in the lead regardless. Kolya Butternut (talk) 16:54, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut, I basically just want this article to reflect reliable sources. I'm actually not aware of any reliable sources which estimate the number of Xennials. Timeline.com appears to be a self-published blog. I'm sure data is available for these birth years but I think that falls into WP:Original Research. Also, I think sections as well as the lead, usually best grow naturally. Editors add reliably sourced stuff to the body of the article and if/when it becomes due weight it gets added to the lead, instead of directly added to the lead. With respect to a potential separate section for the number of Xennials in the population, if we ever get to the point that we have even a single reliable source which estimates the number of Xennials, in the U.S or Australia or anywhere then maybe makes sense to have a section for that, but if it's just a single sentence, often it can be added to an existing section first and if more sources are found then a separate section for it makes more sense I think. DynaGirl (talk) 17:18, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, what are your thoughts on my comment above the one you responded to? Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:27, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm actually concerned that you seem to be trying to push this article toward what seems to be a misrepresentation that Xennials is currently on par with Millennials and Generation X as a recognized demographic cohort or whatever you want to call it, when that is not currently reflected by the sources. Maybe it will be some day, but it's really new now. You also seem to have the impression that I'm opposed to the concept of Xennials when I'm not. I'm just worried that you may be trying to use Wikipedia to lead the sources into what you want Xennials to be instead of simply following the sources. DynaGirl (talk) 17:37, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, I feel like you're projecting motivations onto me that don't exist. You have been repeatedly reverting the article lead to state that Xennials is a neologism, against the apparent consensus of editors. I, nor the other editors and administrators involved, have attempted to make this article and concept more significant than it is. But what it is simply is a "concept" not a "term". There is no such thing as a "recognized demographic cohort." This is simply a description. I have suggested the compromise of describing Generation X and Millenials as a "demographic cohort" in the lead to make it clear what Xennials are in relation to, if you are concerned that readers will incorrectly infer that this language implies Xennials are one of the recognized major generations. Besides my first edits which I learned constituted original research, I have tried to follow the rules as I have learned them. I believe you are trying to push this article to be even less significant than it already is. You removed the significant text I paraphrased from what may be the only published journal article, and what remains, with the irrelevant inclusion of "Division of Student Affairs", makes it sound like the author is a school administrator commenting on students' comfortableness with computers and pens, instead of the researcher who she is. Again, have you read this article? I also feel you're misrepresenting the paper coauthored by Assistant Professor Dr. Appel-Meulenbroek. It is not the "real estate conference" that describes generations; the authors of the paper cite multiple sources to describe the concepts of "generational fuzziness", etc. Again, have you read this article? It doesn't appear you have, because the conference did not take place at Eindhoven University of Technology as you wrote in the text of Xennials. There is no question that this is a minor topic, but it is of interest to me and I would simply like an accurate article which includes what few reliable sources we do have at the moment. As it is now I feel like I have to run all edit suggestions past you to be sure that they align with what you want this article to be. You do not own this article. Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:27, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut Generational articles are my main research area of interest, not just Xennials, but generational articles in general. I've read a lot on this topic and I honestly do care about generational articles reflecting reliable sources. I don't think this qualifies as WP:OWN. I read the articles you've linked, with the exception of the Finnish article on packaging, which only had an abstract. I read the abstract. Do you have access to the full text? Also, I was not the only editor reverting the well sourced removal of neologism from the lead, and I'm not really sure why you are bringing it up now considering I've compromised with you on your replacement of "neologism" with "cross-over generation", and added text regarding cross-over generation to the body of the article so the lead is supported by body [21]. Also, please read WP:CANVASS. Your multiple talk page messages to User Scarpy, who wasn't involved in this dispute but rather an editing disagreement on another page with me, which resulted in RfC, honestly seem to maybe border on inappropriate canvassing. It doesn't seem like you are notifying users in general who have shown interest in same or very similar topic, but rather just ones who you suspect will agree with you in a specific editing dispute: [22],[23],[24]. With respect to my repeated explanations regarding the lead representing the body of the article, this isn't really about ownership, but rather policy and I seem to have mistakenly thought you were a new user. Which I now see isn't the case. Looks like you're been around for years but with long breaks in editing.DynaGirl (talk) 22:19, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, I am bringing up your reversions of “neologism” and “term” back to the lead because this has been the main subject of the dispute, and it illustrates the nature of your edits. An administrator repeatedly stated to you that this was an error that should be corrected but you did not correct it. They stated that their suggested corrections to the lead “are supported by the same sources as the current phrases (ie, all of them),” but again, you did not correct your error. I have tried to improve the bad, misrepresentative writing in the article to something more accurate while also trying to accommodate your concerns, but you have repeatedly reverted the edits and demanded more sourcing and shifted the goal posts after my edits met your criteria. You only “compromised” with my edit to the lead after I referenced the one source which you deemed to be reliable, after you would not accept the simple descriptive words “demographic cohort,” which, as the administrator stated, were supported by the text of the article and the sources. As I have stated, I have simply tried to correct the misrepresentations, inaccuracies and bad writing in the article. You have misrepresentated my edits as trying to make the article more significant than it is.

You state that you have read the articles that I have linked. If that is the case, why did you delete my edits and misrepresent the articles? Do you see the text I paraphrased from the Melissa Kempf Taylor article? Can you tell me what is the full quote of the text?

Thank you for informing me about “canvassing.” In the future I will simply direct involved editors, including you, to my comments in the talk page until I've read more about canvassing. Although my notifications do seem to at least partially fit the criteria of an appropriate notification, because Scarpy is one of the “Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics)."

You state your repeated explanations regarding the lead representing the body of the article are about “policy.” Yet, as the administrator stated, the changes to the lead were “supported by the same sources as the current phrases (ie, all of them).” The changes did meet the criteria of the policy. It seems to me that you were actually attempting to override policy. The administrator stated to you that “bad style” chosen by "local consensus (let alone one person) doesn't override Wikipedia-wide style guidelines.”

You have misrepresented my editing experience on Wikipedia. Before editing Xennials I had only edited six articles, for a total of twelve edits. Most of the six edits were adding single words or sentences, and the other six edits were correcting my own edits immediately after I made them. Only one edit totalled over 500 characters. I am a new user.

You have a pattern of misrepresenting articles, misrepresenting sources, misrepresenting policy, and misrepresenting editors. Kolya Butternut (talk) 00:53, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut, This seems to be breaking down into WP:NPA. You've made multiple uncivil accusations which are not supported by diffs, because they are not true. For me neologisms isn't the main focus of the dispute, but rather having a lead that represents the reliable sources and having a lead that summarizes the body of the article is the main source of the dispute for me. It seems currently, neologism is probably better sourced than "cross-over generation" but at least cross-over generation is decently sourced and I can respect the argument that neologism unfortunately leads to awkward wording, so it's a trade off, and I can support cross-over generation and have not tried to revert your recent change in that regard, instead I've added text to article to improve upon it. DynaGirl (talk) 01:06, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, I feel like I have accurately described your behavior as I have seen it, but I can use "I statements" in an attempt to be civil. I feel like you haven't addressed my concerns. As the article is now, I see that my edits that you reverted from the body of the article have not been restored, and what remains is misleading and/or inaccurate. Maybe there is a dispute resolution process we can engage in to see if a third party feels my observations of your behavior are accurate. Until then, I can add new sections to the talk page with my suggestions to restore my previous edits, and make edits with the input from others. Kolya Butternut (talk) 01:39, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut, you are not using diffs, so it is hard to follow you. Although piecing together what you have been saying I think you might be referring to this version of the article [25], and it seems you might be saying that the reference you added to the first sentence of the second paragraph of the "Characteristics and traits" section was also supposed to be the reference for the last sentence of the first paragraph of that section, even though that sentence did not contain any reference at all. If content is split among 2 paragraphs, please add the reference to both paragraphs. Also please attribute statements to who is saying them. DynaGirl (talk) 02:01, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

@DynaGirl: I don't recall you chastising 2606:6000:6111:8E00:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx for WP:CANVASSing you when they contacted you under fairly similar circumstances. It's understandable that you have an interest in this topic, and your input is valuable, but I believe this has degenerated in part to the dismissive attitude you've taken with other editors. I will include myself there. It started with the templating and went down hill from then. I hope you don't feel like this is an attack, but such behaviors make it difficult to have a productive civil conversation, in part because it doesn't treat the person you're having it with like a peer. I'm not saying myself or other editors involved are blameless or that I couldn't have done things better, but I'm honestly saying as someone who has edited Wikipedia for over a decade (and made plenty of my own mistakes during that time) I think changing tact would go a very long way here. - Scarpy (talk) 03:47, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

Scarpy, that's in relation to a different page and different content dispute that was addressed via RfC. It seems to not be on topic on the Xennials article talk page, but for the record, I did think that the IP contacting me in that manner was not ideal, but incidental because I watch that template page and I watch all of the main generational cohort articles which display that template, so I was going to see that edit and comment on it whether or not the IP alerted me to it. Also, that IP doesn't seem to be a static IP address, so makes a difference in terms of pinging them or messaging them with concerns. If you'd like to discuss further, please do so on my user talk page. DynaGirl (talk) 04:28, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

You could have left a message in the section where the IP accounted notified you the same way you could for anyone else. As far as I can tell the content dispute here is nearly identical. If you don't want me to respond to comments you leave in article talk pages, don't leave them in article pages. - Scarpy (talk) 15:44, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

User:2606:6000:6111:8e00:ad57:6f50:a5f1:2067, Regarding this edit [26], because at this point it looks like 3 users have objected to "neologism" in the opening sentence (see above discussion), I think maybe best to not revert it back to "neologism" at this point, while also avoiding other contested terms like "cohort" and "microgeneration" and just stick with "people" like User:Aeusoes1 suggested [27]. I thought cross-over generation worked adequately, because referenced, but I can also see your objection that this sounds gym related. I hope we can all agree on "people" because the neologism of Xennials refers to people. "Cohort" refers to people. "Microgeneration" (in this context) refers to people and "cross-over generation" refers to people. "People" seems to be only thing generally agreed upon here. Also, I think Scarpy's comments above might be in reference to you. DynaGirl (talk) 17:39, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

No one is objecting to "demographic cohort" except Dynagirl and unverified users as far as I can tell. More than 3 verified users have objected to her changes to the lead, including an administrator. I don't know that anyone but Dynagirl and unverified users have objected to microgeneration either. But I think "micro-generation" or "demographic cohort" would be fine. Most press pieces and the most cited scholarly article all say "microgeneration," so I think we should go with "micro-generation" as a compromise. Kolya Butternut (talk) 05:18, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Koyla, You seem to be claiming I am edit warring with an administrator, which is untrue. The admin you refer to has actually been active on the article recently and has not reverted me nor been reverted by me. This administrator's only recent contribution was to remove a reference from the lead which was no longer needed after I added content to the body of article so that lead was supported by the body of article, following your editing of the lead [28]. DynaGirl (talk) 06:51, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Dynagirl, the last time that administrator made an edit, the word "cross-over generation" was in the lead. He had disagreed with your use of the words "term" and "neologism." He probably hasn't seen the article in its current state which I'm sure he'd disagree with. Also, I had supported my contribution in the lead with text and a reference in the body at that time. But this is a distraction. You are changing the subject. No one shares your opinion that "term" and "neologism" are proper. Many people want to use the words "demographic cohort" or "micro-generation" but you are dominating and taking ownership over this article. Kolya Butternut (talk) 07:14, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Kolya, you saying “no one shares your opinion that term and neologism are proper" is an unusual way for you to respond to me suggesting a compromise that removes both term and neologism and then that editing compromise into the article [29],[30] Also, you honestly appear to be the only one who currently feels strongly about cohort or microgeneration. If I understand User:Cuchullain’s objections, it seems to be more about wording the opening so it’s about people, and not about a term, and User:Scarpy, supported removing both “term” and “cohort” from the opening of Generation Jones and referred the them as “people” attributing this to the discussion on this page [31], [32] DynaGirl (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

It seems to me the overall disagreement here is regarding the "realness" of Xennials (and other cuspers). I think User:DynaGirl and 2606:6000:6111:8E00:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx:xxxx place Xennials and other cuspers on the lower end of the realness spectum, where as myself and I think User:Kolya Butternut are of the opinion that Xennials are more real than they're currently being given credit for. The protracted discussion is basically an abstraction of this difference of opinion. If real progress is really going to be made in the realness debate (for real), we need to put more cards on the table as to what would falsify each other's positions and square this with Wikipedia guidelines rather than personal preferences in the form of various arguments. For example, can we agree on how many sources published with statistical analysis on Generation X/Millennial cuspers is necessary to call them a demographic cohort? Can we agree on the number of and kind of sources necessary referring to them as a microgeneration to us the term? On what grounds do we say these numbers are reasonable or unreasonable? If we keep talking about these things qualitatively rather than quantitatively, we're just going to keep going back and forth. If my hunch is wrong about people's positions on the Spectrum of Xennial Realness, feel free to correct me. - Scarpy (talk) 19:39, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Scarpy, I honestly consider myself fairly neutral on the "realness" of Xennials. I've spent considerable time addressing edits like this which attempt to discredit Xennials in article text [33], [34]. I do want the article to well represent the sources and I do not think current sources put Xennials on par with the main generational categories such as Generation X and Millennials. DynaGirl (talk) 20:11, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

You may agree that it's more real than "contrived," but I would put "neologism" only slightly above "contrived" on the Realness Spectrum. From my perspective, it looks and awful lot like your goal is to find a threshold of language you can get away to trivialize/discredit Generation X/Millennial cupsers. The over-focus on the etymology of the term for those cuspers looks a lot like that to me. It's a bit like "hey, people born 1975-1980, you're fake because the word to describe you is new!" Again, that's just from where I'm sitting, and you can tell me if I'm wrong. - Scarpy (talk) 20:46, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, Showing that you reverted blatant vandalism doesn't do much to show that you have been neutral. You are straw-manning when you talk about the current sources not putting Xennials on par with the main generational categories. No one is suggesting its on par with them. You have been arguing for the word "neologism" in the lead by saying it's supported by the body of the article which is about etymology (despite what I believe was a bad faith and currently reverted compromise to the word "people"), but you have been resistant to making the article about the concept rather than the etymology. You support your arguments for "neologism" and "self-identification" over scholarly sources by saying they are "well sourced", but then you dismiss those same sources as "popular press pieces" when someone argues that Xennials are a demographic cohort. You include quotes by Dan Woodman when they serve to diminish the Xennials concept, but you don't value the same source when I point out that he discusses the Xennials concept without discussing "self-identification." Kolya Butternut (talk) 01:19, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Lede

Could use some more fine tuning. 2606:6000:6111:8E00:D152:7F46:A25F:D936 (talk) 00:00, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes...can we lock the first sentence of lede? I think that if we can't agree on "Xennials are a cross-over/micro-generation or demographic cohort", then it should at least say: "Xennials (also known as...) are people born on the cusp of...." Editors are edit warring over this and changing it back to "Xennials is a term for" or "Xennials is a neologism for..." --Kolya Butternut (talk) 01:24, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

I can support this. I recently edited it to the "Xennials are people" wording in hopes of some sort of compromise [35] (please see above talk page discussion on microgeneration in lede) but see that it has been changed again. Although I guess I could also support the current "term for" wording without "neologism" which the IP seems to have edited as a compromise to eliminate "neologism", considering the article is largely about the term, and all people in these specific birth years do not identify as Xennials. Also, many (at this point most), demographers and commentators do not include Xennials, so people in these birth years would be either referred to as "Gen Xers" or "Millennials" and not as "Xennials" by most of the sources. DynaGirl (talk) 01:37, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

My opinion is that "people" would be used as a last resort. We should get all editors involved in the dispute to weigh in first. I find "Xennials are people" to be unnecessarily vague. I would prefer the lead to start "Xennials are a/the microgeneration...", as Merriam-Webster uses the word "microgeneration" just like all the articles. I would propose "micro-generation" as a compromise." Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:19, 3 February 2019 (UTC) Or "demographic cohort" Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:22, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Kolya, simply going back to your original wording which has received signifi cant objection does not actually qualify as a "compromise". DynaGirl (talk) 03:36, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

"Microgeneration" was my original wording. The compromise I have been suggesting is "micro-generation" and "demographic cohort." You had agreed to "cross-over generation." There have been no objections raised by verified editors. You edited it to "Xennials are people" without discussion and after we had been in an edit war. I feel that was inappropriate. "Neologism" is essentially the same as "term." They're the same sort of bad writing against Wikipedia guidelines. Regarding your other comments; if the article is written as though it is about a "term" then the article is written poorly. This article is about a concept and should be written to reflect that. As far as people not "identifying as Xennials," please see above talk page discussion on Self-identifying as Xennials. Merriam-Webster states "Initially the word was used in articles by and for xennials themselves. But it seems now that the people in marketing are paying attention." The scholarly sources and the marketing sources do not discuss self-identification. The people who coined the words discuss self-identification. The concept exists beyond those people. Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:51, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

@DynaGirl: "Demographic cohort" [36] is how this article started. How about we go back to that? There are many verified objections to your repeated reversions back to "name", "term", and "neologism". Kolya Butternut (talk) 04:09, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Koyla, for objections to demographic cohort, please refer to above talk page sections. Also, it seems a bit of a contradiction for you to say that you think it is inappropriate that I made one edit to change it to a version which earlier in this talk page discussion you yourself said you supported, at least over what was there before. Either way, making one single edit to the article in the last couple of days [37], to a version which I've never reverted to before, and which was previously proposed by another user [38] is not inappropriate, but on the subject of questionable appropriateness, you and User:Scarpy appear to not be editing independently on these articles, but rather appear to be coordinating your edits on Scarpy's talk page, and now appear to be coordinating your editing offline as well. [39]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DynaGirl (talk • contribs) 04:41, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

My bad. Thank you for adding signature template. DynaGirl (talk) 05:40, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

No problem. If discussion here wasn't so uncoordinated, we wouldn't need other means for coordinated discussion. Under the circumstances it's a very appropriate use of available options. I would welcome any effort to decrease the entropy of this talk page, if you'd like to join me. - Scarpy (talk) 05:45, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

:@DynaGirl:, I don't see any verified users other than you who object to "demographic cohort." I don't recall suggesting using the word "people" until after you had changed it back so many times I felt like I had no other choice. You're mischaracterizing your edit as "one single edit." Our initial disputes were over the word or phrase that comes after the first verb in the first sentence. You have been reverting that word for years. It's not a small edit. It is the foundation of our dispute. We had agreed on "cross-over generation." I would suggest that we use that until we can come to a compromise with other editors. Any unverified editors should create accounts if their opinions are to be considered, considering that as I've said, the first word after the first verb in the first sentence has been disputed by you for years. Do you agree on our previously agreed upon word choice of "cross-over generation?" Kolya Butternut (talk) 06:00, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut, Demographic cohort has never been the status quo version of the article, and demographic cohort actually means something specific in social science research. I removed it shortly after article creation and explained reasoning and sourcing on talk page. Also, can you please stop what appears to be canvassing. You've contacted yet another specific user on their user talk page [40] in what does not appear to be a neutral effort to simply contact users who might be interested in topic, but instead specific users who you suspect will agree with you in a content dispute. WP:Canvass was already linked in above talk page section the last time you did this. Typically, the editor who created an article would have that article on their watchlist, so this doesn't seem about general awareness. Seems like you are contacting User:Udeezy and specifically encouraging him/her to support you against me in a content dispute. There are neutral ways in which you can get additional feedback, and ways you can get input from additional editors such as noticeboards and WikiProject pages which are discussed on WP:Canvass and WP:Dispute Resolution, but please stop selectively contacting users who you suspect will support you in a content dispute. DynaGirl (talk) 06:14, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

@DynaGirl: You're the only registered user who I know of who doesn't support my opinion. I'll read your links; as of now I know of no other way to contact people. I could just contact every person who's ever edited the article if that would work. Regarding the phrase "demographic cohort," you stated that you "removed it shortly after creation and explained reasoning and sourcing on talk page." Are you talking about this?

"Most of these sources don't mention "Oregon Trail Generation" but instead refer to Xennials and Generation Catalano, but both of these were apparently recently deleted. This doesn't really seem notable enough for a stand alone article yet because the sourcing isn't comparable to the other demographic cohort articles. There are no sources from demographers; no sources from sociologists, no research; not even any research from ad agencies or those trying to market to these individuals. The current sources are all basically opinion pieces, apparently from individuals in these birth years. I think this definitely warrants mention on both the Generation X and Millennials pages regarding people on the cusp feeling "in between", but the sourcing doesn't really seem enough for a stand alone article. --DynaGirl (talk) 05:45, 23 June 2016 (UTC)"

I don't see anything there that supports not using "demographic cohort" today. You haven't answered my question: Do you agree to our previously agreed upon compromise, "cross-over generation?" Lastly, what are you claiming that "demographic cohort" means, in social science, with references? Kolya Butternut (talk) 06:41, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Koyla, you included an old comment from me in a way that seems confusing. It is indented as if I replied to you there today when I did not. There are actually multiple registered users who have agreed with me. You state you don't know of any registered users who have supported "neologism", but this occurs in same earlier discussion you lifted the above quote from. Here's a diff from an administrator supporting "neologism" [41]. However, I'm not going to go to his talk page and encourage him to support me over you in a content dispute, as you have been repeatedly doing, because that seems like canvassing. With respect to the status of the current sources and whether or not it's changed enough to now support "demographic cohort", there is that one source, The Finnish packaging study which appears to maybe study Xennials in terms of statistical analysis compared to other statistical cohorts, but I've only seen the abstract. Do you have access to the full text link? Also, as I already stated in above talk page section, I can support "cross-over generation" considering it's referenced and cross-over generation doesn't seem particularly misleading or misrepresentative. DynaGirl (talk) 07:29, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl misrepresented the administrator in the above comments. Please see disussion: [42]. Kolya Butternut (talk) 01:30, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Koyla, are you hoping people won’t bother clicking on that link and see that you are the one misrepresenting? I might as well add a permanent link for the above talk page discussion also, so that’s always clear, even when that talk page archives [43]. User:Kolya Butternut, It seems pretty clear you are not a new editor. I'm not sure who you are, or why you are so fixated on me, but I won't let you goad me into losing my cool with you. DynaGirl (talk) 20:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, you certainly tell a good blame-shifting story. I can play this game too. I've archived the talk page of administrator NeilN where I discuss how you misrepresent him: [44] and this Xennials talk page which I reference there: [45]. You've constructed a narrative claiming that I am focused on you, and now when I continue to defend myself and my arguments in this article by calling out your manipulative behavior I fall into the trap of supporting your narrative about me. You have no basis for your accusation that I'm not new to editing; I don't know how I can prove that I'm new, but I welcome any investigation. As you know, I discussed my newness on NeilN's talk page because of your previous accusation that I was not inexperienced (this talk page at 22:19, 29 January 2019). Obviously all of this is your attempt at diverting the conversation away from the content of this article on which we disagree. So let's get back to that. I believe this article should lead with "Xennials are the micro-generation that..." or, "Xennials are the demographic cohort that...." You disagree. You state that there are not enough sources to support this wording. I would point out that pretty much all the sources call Xennials a micro-generation, including Merriam-Webster which in this talk page you stated was a reliable source. Other sources don't directly state that Xennials are a demographic cohort, but those words are included in the articles in direct reference to Xennials (and Xennials simply fit the definition of a demographic cohort). Notice: pretty much all the sources state that Xennials are a micro-generation, but no sources state that it isn't a micro-generation. Dan Woodman, who is an authority on generation studies, calls Xennials a "cross-over generation" without using the word micro-generation, but although he is an authority he is the only one who doesn't use "micro-generation." So, my question to you is, what specific quality and quantity of reliable sources do you think would be needed for you to support "micro-generation" or "demographic cohort" in the lead? You stated that "demographic cohort" would only be proper if statistical analysis were performed, but you also stated that more than one study of Xennials would be needed for you to support "demographic cohort." So again, what specific kinds of studies would support that terminology, and how many? Exactly how many scholarly sources need to call Xennials a micro-generation for that word to be appropriate? So generally, what are your precise standards for us to come to a consensus on either "micro-generation" or "demographic cohort?" Again, this isn't about arguing with you, but you seem to be the gatekeeper for this article. As I've said, I think the evidence is clear that you're not acting in good faith, so we'll have to agree to disagree. I'll give this debate a rest once I don't feel like I have to defend myself or this article against falsehoods. Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:29, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

@DynaGirl: No, I don't have access to the Finnish study. I'm not sure why that study looks any different to you than the other surveys of Xennials. Who are the registered users who have agreed with you? Maybe we should include them in the conversation. But more importantly, what is your understanding of the phrase "demographic cohort?" Please cite references to show why this phrase does not apply here. Kolya Butternut (talk) 07:51, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Please state why you believe the Finnish study is superior to the many other studies I've cited. The only difference I see is that you know I don't have access to it. I'm sure I can find it at the library if you can explain why this survey looks more authoritative than the others. 22:23, 3 February 2019 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk)

Koyla, I’m using the social science definition of "demographic cohort", meaning a group that is studied in terms of statistical analysis, not simply an identified group which is described. Please see Cohort (statistics). The Finnish packaging study seems interesting because rather than just commenting on identified birth years, based on observations, it appear that perhaps data was collected and cohorts were compared via statistical analysis to determine if there were statistically significant difference between the groups. This sort of research regularly occurs with the main generational categories, but the vast majority of the current generational research, which is based on data and statistics, do not include Xennials as a separate group. I’m actually not convinced one source treating Xennials as a cohort (if the Finnish packaging study actually does this) would be justification for identifying Xennials as a cohort in the opening sentence of the lead though, if the vast majority of generational research still does not do so. DynaGirl (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, Cohort (statistics) states: "In statistics, marketing and demography, a cohort is a group of subjects who share a defining characteristic (typically subjects who experienced a common event in a selected time period, such as birth or graduation)." Xennials meets that definition. There are many marketing studies which use Xennials as a cohort. Can you cite references which state that the definition of a demographic cohort is that the group has undergone statistical analysis? Can you define "statistical analysis?" The two studies (from Canada and France) in the Xennials Research talk section undergo just as much statistical analysis as a Finnish study surveying consumer packaging preferences of different generations. The fact that the vast majority of generational research does not include Xennials has nothing to do with whether Xennials are defined as a demographic cohort. Like Scarpy suggested, I'll ask how many sources using Xennials as a cohort do you need to see to accept that Xennials are a cohort? The question itself doesn't make sense to me though. Like I've said, the obscurity of a concept has nothing to do with its definition. Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:48, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

It feels like we're rehashing the same things again and again. To reiterate, Wikipedia articles do not start with "Xxx is a term for", per MOS:FIRST and WP:REFERSTO. That's just bad writing - this article is not about a term, it's about a group of people. And as before, I see no problem referring to Xennials by the perfectly well understood terms "demographic", "cohort", etc. "Xennials are people..." is okay too.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:43, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm more comfortable with "cohort" than the words "generation" or "demographic". "Xennials" is a media creation, it hasn't been seriously studied in a university setting by academics or by a demographic experts.Aboutbo2000 (talk) 20:31, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Aboutbo2000, please wait before changing the lead and discuss first. There has been a protracted dispute over the first noun in the lead sentence over the past couple weeks, and looking at the edit history this disagreement has gone on since the article was created in 2016. The phrase "cross-over generation" (which was used in the lead sentence of an article by the most interviewed authority on the subject) seemed to be the choice on which we came closest to a consensus. I don't agree at this point that "generation" would be confusing; I think in context with the birth years the length of time is clear, but adding the prefix "micro" addresses your concern that "generation" implies a longer span of time. Almost all of the sources, both reliable and popular, use the term micro-generation. There was concern that "microgeneration" is only defined as small scale power generation (even though Merriam-Webster uses it to describe Xennials [46]), but a hyphen corrects that problem, and hyphenated words do not need to be in the dictionary to be proper. I don't believe that scholarly sources are necessary for a concept to be described using the terms "generation" or "demographic". Marketing research, and just popular understanding of the concept should be enough. But I would say that it has indeed been seriously studied. If you believe that it has not, what precisely would your criteria be? Would one university study defining Xennials as a generational demographic work? Also, Xennials is simply the name for the X/Y Cusp generation, which has been seriously studied in university setting. I don't think it matters which name is used in the studies.

@Cuchullain: you are correct to say we are repeatedly rehashing the same thing. This entire talk page is almost entirely made up of protracted arguments over the first noun of the lead sentence. I feel like there is WP:POVRAILROAD going on, and possibly sockpuppets or meatpuppets. A RfC could certainly help, but i'm concerned that puppets could interfere. Like I said earlier in this reply to Aboutbo2000, I think "micro-generation" makes the most sense because it's pretty much universally how Xennials are introduced. "People" seems unnecessarily vague, and it seems like only one registered user is insisting upon "people" when their preference for "neologism" is rejected. Kolya Butternut (talk) 01:35, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Cúchullain, maybe this is the accurate term for what I think is happening here: Wikipedia:Civil POV pushing. Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:46, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Kolya Butternut, your above comments do not appear to correspond with the recent edit history of the article.

To review: User:Cuchullain edited the article to the compromise version of “Xennials are people born during the Generation X/Millennial cusp years” [47]. Then you promptly reverted Cuchullain [48].

Then User:Aboutbo2000 edited the article to the compromise version of “Xennials are people born during the Generation X/Millennial cusp years” [49]. Then you promptly reverted AboutBo2000 as well [50]. I started an RFC on this issue to get additional community input and hopefully get some sort of consensus for a stable version of the lede. DynaGirl (talk) 21:06, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

DynaGirl, If the use of the word "people" was a compromise, it was only a compromise with you. User:Cuchullain made no preference for the word "people". He was objecting to your insistence that the lead start: "Xennials ... is a (neologistic) term for". [51]. Aboutbo2000 stated that they would be comfortable with the word "cohort," but they edited using the recently used word "people," so it's not clear what their preference would have been if we had discussed. I would have compromised on "cohort." After I reverted I directed them to discuss on the talk page, in line with Bold Revert Discuss. To review:

• Udeezy created the article, beginning the lead with "is a demographic cohort"[52] in 2016.
• DynaGirl changed the lead to use "is a name"[53].
• IP 2604:2000:ee80:5e00:e4c1:aa03:425f:3451 added "is a name given to a micro-generation"[54] in 2017.
• DynaGirl changed it to say "is a term referring to"[55].
• Volunteer1234 changed it to "is a generation"[56].
• DynaGirl reverted it to "is a term referring to"[57].
• Cuchullain changed it to "is a demographic cohort"[58] in 2018.
• DynaGirl reverted it to "is a term referring to"[59].
• Cuchullain changed it to "is a demographic"[60].
• DynaGirl changed it to "is a neologistic term"[61].
• Aeusoes1 changed it to "are people"[62] in 2019. In his edit summary he stated that he did this to create "better prose"
• DynaGirl reverted it to "is a neologistic term"[63].
• Aeusoes1 reverted it to "are people," adding "neologistic" in the body[64].
• IP 71.254.98.82 changed it to "neologism"[65] for "better wording."
• Kolya Butternut changed it to "microgeneration"[66].
• DynaGirl reverted it to "neologism"[67].
• Kolya Butternut reverted it to "microgeneration"[68].
• Kolya Butternut changed it to "demographic cohort"[69].
• DynaGirl changed it to "neologism"[70].
• Kolya Butternut changed it to "cross-over generation"[71] as a compromise.
• IP 2606:6000:6111:8e00:ad57:6f50:a5f1:2067 changed it to "neologistic term"[72], claiming that "cross-over generation" sounded like it referred to the "gym."
• DynaGirl changed it to "people"[73], stating that she can see the "objection that this sounds gym related."
• IP 2606:6000:6111:8e00:c013:6217:389b:b9cb changed it to "neologism"[74].
• Cuchullain changed it to "people"[75].
• Kolya Butternut changed it to "cross-over generation"[76].
• Aboutbo2000 changed it to "people"[77] stating that "generation" sounds like a longer span of time.
• Kolya Butternut changed it to "micro-generation"[78], with a dash this time.

Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:44, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

Xennials research

Marketing research:

J.D. Power has used Xennials in a dozen or so consumer studies: [79] (I don't think the studies themselves are available.) "J.D. Power defines generational groups as Pre-Boomers (born before 1946); Boomers (1946 to 1964); Gen X (1965-1976); and Gen Y (1977 to 1994). Xennials (1978-1981) and Millennials (1982-1994) are subsets of Gen Y."

Nationally Representative Survey Reveals Moms' Shopping Habits With Generational Comparisons [80]

The Xennial outlook on finance, tech and home life (Xennials: An untapped opportunity for marketers) [81] "Recent research from GfK Consumer Life uncovers how Xennials serve as the bridge between the infinitely dissected Millennials and oft-neglected Generation X" (I don't think the research itself is available.)

The case for micro-generations: An Xennial takes on Gen X [82]

Parking's New Target Market: Xennials (Based on first hand interviews with xennials) [83]

Xennials: the in-between generation redefining growing up. Summary of report from JWT Intelligence's The Innovation Group: [84] "The report also features in-depth case studies of two major groups, the New Types and the Lifestyle Types, which are then broken down into 12 detailed sub-types, including the New Adult Festivalgoer and the Xennial Entrepreneur." Link to pdf of report: [85] Kolya Butternut (talk) 06:33, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

What brands should know about the 'New Adult' [86] "Do we need to rethink these outdated definitions of generations? In my group at J Walter Thompson we’ve been examining this in depth. What’s emerging is a cohort between the stereotypes of millennial and Gen X. A group, somewhere between 30- and 45-years-old, who share more in common with each other than with the term "Millennial" or "X". They’ve been called "Xennials" in some places, and "midults" in other discourse." Kolya Butternut (talk) 07:04, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Would probably want to add the Finnish study to this.

* Korhonen, Virpi; Ylipoti, Kerttu-Maaria (2018-07-01). "Packaging Value by Generation—Results of a Finnish Study". The 21st IAPRI World Conference on Packaging. doi:10.12783/iapri2018/24396. ISBN 978-1-60595-046-4. OCLC 1046683227.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link) - Scarpy (talk) 18:22, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Canadian Xennials Feel The Retirement Savings Squeeze According To Environics Research Survey For TD [87] Kolya Butternut (talk) 04:56, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Business Insider (France) [88] discusses two studies: Millennials and Xennials and Investment in Business [89], published on November 20, 2018. And the first edition of the study from 2017: [90] Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:00, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
Les Echos also writes about these French studies: [91]. Kolya Butternut (talk) 04:43, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

New Botox-like drug targets Xennials [92] Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:00, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Wine company in India targets Xennials: [93] Kolya Butternut (talk) 05:35, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Social and psychological research:

Comparing Millennial and Generation X Medical Students at One Medical School (including Lancaster and Stillman's "Cuspars"): [94] Kolya Butternut (talk) 06:43, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

The organizational value of Xennials: A microgeneration placed to smooth workplace tension [95] --Kolya Butternut (talk) 22:57, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Understanding the Drivers and Consequences of Interactive Innovations Adoption in Health and Medicine [96]

"To determine if age, and potentially early experience with technology, impacted adoption decisions, birth year was recoded into a generational variable: a group of those born in 1985 or after, hereby referred to as Millennials, and a group of those born prior to 1985, which encompasses both Generation X and the Xennials, a term that has emerged recently in business literature to describe a "micro-generation" between Generation X and Millennials, distinguished from Millennials by their early experiences with information technology, in particular the fact that the Internet and social media were not part of their childhood (Taylor, 2018)." Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:39, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Foreign popular media:

Spanish newspaper El Pais [97]; select quotes:

"There are common experiences," explains Verne Almudena Moreno, sociologist at the University of Valladolid and co-author of the Youth Report in Spain 2012, "and one of the differences between generations can be access to technological instruments, which provide a common living context." This context also influences how we relate to others.

and

This does not mean that these terms have no value. As Woodman explains, paraphrasing José Ortega y Gasset, "we are formed by the time in which we live," especially by the experiences of our youth, "which determine our lives and can create new political movements."

I think that's a good excerpt to balance out his other quotes. There are more quotes that expand on the following:

both Moreno and Woodman are critical of these generalizations.

Kolya Butternut (talk) 01:46, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

GQ South Africa [98] (nothing interesting here except the country of publication, although it looks identical to the British version. [99] Kolya Butternut (talk) 05:03, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Characteristics and traits

I feel like this section needs some work. If someone were reading this article for the first time and just wanted to know what Xennials were supposed to be, they'd have to sift through a lot of vague quotes by the coiners of the terms for the XY cusp generation written in the 2010s. I would propose starting this section with the paragraph that begins "The Generation X," and then following that with a paragraph summarizing Xennial characteristics. One phrase I like which is in many of the press articles but which does not appear here is Xennials had "an analog childhood and digital adulthood". This can be found in The Telegraph among others, which shows the global reach of the concept. After those two paragraphs I mentioned I might include the Dan Woodman paragraph, and then after that talk about "self-identification" with the quotes from the popular press pieces. So...

• The Generation X and Millenial demographic cohorts...
• (summary of traits described from many sources, including the quote "analog childhood and digital adulthood")
• According to Australian sociologist, Dan Woodman...
• Many who identify with the cusp years of Xennials... (although, this language of "identify with the cusp years" is awkward. Perhaps change this to "identify with the concept of an X/Y cusp generation"
• (quotes from 2010s press pieces, with the addition of information from Sarah Stankorb, the coiner of "Xennials")

--Kolya Butternut (talk) 04:20, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

It's pretty important to attribute information to the source, to clarify who is making the assertion, and who they are (sociologist, journalists etc). Also, I wouldn't support deleting the well sourced introductory sentence of "Many who identify with the cusp years of Xennials, Oregon Trail Generation, or Generation Catalano do so because they do not feel they fit within the typical definitions of Generation X or Millennials", and moving this below general discussion of Generation X seems potentially confusing as well. DynaGirl (talk) 13:33, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

I am not suggesting information would not be attributed to the writers; I am suggesting that we write a summary in paragraph form in addition to the quotes and snippets. The introductory sentence: "Many who identify..." is well sourced, but that is not an argument for why it should be in the introduction. I think it makes sense to put this sentence right above the quotes of the coiners of the modern terms. What you're referring to as a "general discussion of Generation X" does not exist. How exactly would it be confusing to move a sentence about "identifying as an Xennial" below a summary of Xennial characteristics? Kolya Butternut (talk) 05:29, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

Lead

@Frmorrison: I feel that edit [100] was supported by the body. Can you expand on your reason for reversion? Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:57, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

I disagree. You need more than one source to change the lead information. --Frmorrison (talk) 18:43, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

@Frmorrison: Only one cited source uses those exact words but other sources describe the same idea, don't you think? Kolya Butternut (talk) 22:45, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

@Frmorrison: There are four sources in the body which support the change to the lead:

1. Business Insider: Xennials "had to bridge the divide between an analog childhood and digital adulthood."
2. Las Cruces Sun-News: They remember "a time before the digital age, but barely".
3. Anna Garvey..."discusses their relationship with both analog and digital technology."
4. Dan Woodman: "The theory goes that the Xennials dated, and often formed ongoing relationships, pre-social media. They usually weren't on Tinder or Grindr, for their first go at dating at least. They called up their friends and the person they wanted to ask out on a landline phone"

Does this support the change? Kolya Butternut (talk) 06:36, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

Frmorrison, I restored my edit because I have shown that more than one source in the body supports my change to the lead. If you have other objections please describe. Kolya Butternut (talk) 22:49, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

RFC - Lede

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

How should Xennials be described in opening sentence of the lede: DynaGirl (talk) 20:50, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

1) Xennials (also known as the Oregon Trail Generation and Generation Catalano) is a neologistic term used to describe people born during the Generation X/Millennial cusp years, typically from the late 1970s to the early 1980s.

2) Xennials (also known as the Oregon Trail Generation and Generation Catalano) are terms that describe people born during the Generation X/Millennial cusp years, typically from the late 1970s to the early 1980s.

3) Xennials (also known as the Oregon Trail Generation and Generation Catalano) are people born during the Generation X/Millennial cusp years, typically from the late 1970s to the early 1980s.

4) Xennials (also known as the Oregon Trail Generation and Generation Catalano) are a cross-over generation of people on the cusp of the Generation X and Millennial demographic cohorts, typically born between the late 1970s and early 1980s.

5) Xennials (also known as the Oregon Trail Generation and Generation Catalano) are the micro-generation of people on the cusp of the Generation X and Millennial demographic cohorts, typically born between the late 1970s and early 1980s.

6) Xennials (also known as the Oregon Trail Generation and Generation Catalano) is a demographic cohort representing those born in the cusp years of Generation X and the Millennial generation, typically in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Although it may complicate things, you may support more than one option. Hopefully, an option will emerge which has the most support and the least opposition. DynaGirl (talk) 20:50, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

I would suggest adding the words "cohort" and "demographic" separately as choices. I believe we are to make our choices based on the word following "Xennials... is/are". I think we can easily find a compromise on the latter part of the sentence. Kolya Butternut (talk) 05:03, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
I would also suggest adding "micro-generation" in quotes as a choice, per User:DynaGirl below. Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:43, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

Survey

• Strong support for 3. Support 1 & 2. Oppose 4, 5 and 6. Describing Xennials as people born during Generation X/Millennial cusp years is clear, concise and to the point. It is also a non-controversial factual statement. However, I could also support options 1 & 2 because Xennials is a neologism recently coined by Good magazine. I can respect concerns regarding WP:REFERS, but think using "term for" may be acceptable in this case because the Xennials are not widely agreed upon as a separate grouping by social scientists (most still classify these individuals either Millennials or Gen Xers) so Xennials is currently limited use terminology. Oppose "micro-generation" and "cross-over generation" because these are not actual words in the English language. These are also not terms widely used by demographers or social scientists, although there is some use. These could maybe work in quotations marks but it hasn’t been proposed in quotes. Oppose "demographic cohort" because this means something specific in social science research. This refers to a group which is compared to other groups using statistical analysis to determine if the groups have statistically significant differences. This type of research rarely if ever happens with the grouping referred to as Xennials. In the vast majority of demographic research these people are either counted as Millennials or as Generation Xers. DynaGirl (talk) 20:51, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Comment - this is heavy on declarative statements and light on evidence. "Xennials are currently limited use terminology." Compared to what? "these are not actual words in the English language" this is more of a personal preference for something like prescriptive vs descriptive grammar, either way it's been used several times in the scholarly research (see below). See my comment below regarding statistical differences among "demographic cohorts," as it seems the facts are the opposite of what you're describing here in terms of statistical significance. "Xennials are not widely agreed upon as a separate grouping by social scientists (most still classify these individuals either Millennials or Gen Xers)" there is plenty of scholarly work discussing cuspers and Xennials are cuspers. The existence of cuspers is widely agreed upon. - Scarpy (talk) 22:15, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support 3, 4, 5, or 6. 3 is probably the version least likely to cause further niggling, so that's my main preference. I don't think 5 is particularly clear as to what it's about. 1 and 2 are unacceptable per WP:ISAWORDFOR and WP:REFERS, as I've repeatedly said above, so oppose those two.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:21, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment my participation in the edit history was just to remove reference to the article's subject matter as a term. We would really only want to say that something is a term in the first sentence if the article is about nomenclature. This article seems to be about the cohort itself, with terminology taking up just a part of the article's overall scope, so those components of options 1 and 2 would make for less clear writing. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 03:05, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
• Strong support for 5 & 6, Support 4, and the word "cohort" alone, strongly oppose 1, 2, 3. Here is my challenge: use the concept of "Xennials" in a sentence without using the word "Xennials." You're going to use the words cohort, demographic cohort, cusp generation, or micro-generation. You're not going to say "the people born on the cusp of two generations" every time.
  I feel like this survey should be limited to the first noun after the subject of the first sentence. The construction of the rest of the sentence has not necessarily been disputed so it should not influence one's choice. Also, the choices "demographic" and "cohort" separately are not options. I would say that "Xennials ... are a cohort of people born during the Generation X/Millennial cusp years" is also clear, concise and to the point, and it is a non-controversial factual statement. "People" is unnecessarily vague. None of the other articles about generations and social cohorts begin that way; this only serves to delegitimize the concept. No evidence has been presented that the words "demographic" and "cohort" mean something in social science other than: cohort: "a group of subjects who share a defining characteristic ... such as birth or graduation." This "Xennials" article does not refer to a "cohort study." "Demographics are quantifiable characteristics of a given population." Xennials simply are a demographic, a cohort, and a demographic cohort. This article is about the demographic cohort born during the Generation X/Millennial cusp years . If the word "Xennials" were not used, that is how they would be described. In addition, this cohort has been studied by many marketers, and also social scientists:

Comparing Millennial and Generation X Medical Students at One Medical School (including Lancaster and Stillman's "Cuspars"): [101]

The organizational value of Xennials: A microgeneration placed to smooth workplace tension [102]

Xennials: a microgeneration in the workplace[103]

"Micro-generation" and "cross-over" generation are certainly words despite that they are not in the dictionary. Hyphenated words not in the dictionary are still words. The New York Times agrees. In 2000, the word appeared in an article about George W. Bush: [104]. And the word was directly used to comment on "Xennials" in 2017:[105] "Micro-" appears commonly in hyphenated words in many articles in the NYT: [106] In addition, "micro" itself is an adjective[107], so we could write "micro generation" with or without a hyphen. Kolya Butternut (talk) 04:38, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

More scholarly research (note the use of the word "micro-generation":

Understanding the Drivers and Consequences of Interactive Innovations Adoption in Health and Medicine [108]

"To determine if age, and potentially early experience with technology, impacted adoption decisions, birth year was recoded into a generational variable: a group of those born in 1985 or after, hereby referred to as Millennials, and a group of those born prior to 1985, which encompasses both Generation X and the Xennials, a term that has emerged recently in business literature to describe a "micro-generation" between Generation X and Millennials, distinguished from Millennials by their early experiences with information technology, in particular the fact that the Internet and social media were not part of their childhood (Taylor, 2018)." [emphasis added] Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:57, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

The 2013 Time magazine cover story, The Me Me Me Generation, uses the word "microgenerations":

"They are not only the biggest generation we've ever known but maybe the last large birth grouping that will be easy to generalize about. There are already microgenerations within the millennial group, launching as often as new iPhones, depending on whether you learned to type before Facebook, Twitter, iPads or Snapchat. Those rising microgenerations are all horrifying the ones right above them, who are their siblings." [emphasis added] Kolya Butternut (talk) 03:07, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support 5 and 3 oppose 1, 2, 4, 6 all of this "is a term for" or "refers to" is trivializing of a group of people and is bad writing. I did a significant amount of research for the Cusper article and saw the term "microgeneration" or "micro-generation" used often in the context of cuspers, even if it's not widely used out side of this context. I didn't see cross-over used as often as micro-generation. We're only discussing the "demographic cohortness" of Xennials because in previous discussions this was used as an arbitrary threshold for what is or isn't a generation, which is completely ridiculous. If you look up 'generation' in Wiktionary or OED, aside from words like "average" you don't find attempts at a statistical definition, and I see as much criticism of this in the peer-reviewed literature as I do support (See for example Frank Giancola's 2006 paper). "Demographic cohort" looks and awful lot like WP:PEACOCK. - Scarpy (talk) 18:01, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

A point also echoed in The Evidence Base for Generational Differences: Where Do We Go from Here? regarding an apriori assumption of predefined generational cohorts: This discussion has brought us to one of the key weaknesses in research on generational differences—a desire to arbitrarily expand the number of generations beyond the Boomers and Veterans. Authors have therefore proposed the existence of Gen X, Gen Y (Millennials), and Gen Z, without any direct evidence that they can be considered as distinct from each other—they may be distinct from Boomers and Veterans, but there is no evidence that they differ significantly from each other and constitute distinct groups.... This has driven the general approach to generational issues in most studies that take these predefined cohorts as representing distinct generations, and lead to the fundamental weaknesses we flag above. We now provide an indication of where the research needs to go if it is to seriously answer the question of whether the generational dimension is significant in explaining difference, and the related question of whether there are any “post-boomer” cohorts, or just the one?

To be fair, this is as much a reason to remove it from other articles on generations as it is from here, but in all of those cases it looks an awful lot like WP:PEACOCK to me. - Scarpy (talk) 19:59, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support 4, 5, and 6. Strongly oppose 1, 2, and 3.

Here is my problem with 3. ‘Xennials’ is the group of people born during the late 1970s and early 1980s who share similar characteristics and traits, not the individuals themselves (which 3 is incorrectly implying). And let’s not forget that the Xennials article (and the other Generation articles in general) are mainly American-centric constructs, so the majority of people (or even everyone) born during the late 1970s and early 1980s in countries such as Mongolia, for example, don’t identify with “Xennials.” Starting the lead of this article with “Xennials are people born… “ is flawed and untrue. Microgeneration, cross-over generation, cohort, demographic cohort, etc. are better and more precise terms. Someone963852 (talk) 23:20, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

• Stronger support for 3. Support 1 & 2. But oppose 4, 5 and 6 My main issue with using "demographic" is that there isn't any academic study of the word Xennials. For ex., can anybody name a book written about it, by an academic or well known journalist?Aboutbo2000 (talk) 01:41, 15 February 2019 (UTC) User:Aboutbo2000 has been blocked. Kolya Butternut (talk) 04:47, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
• Comment/questions @Aboutbo2000:

• Where is your standard for a demographic coming from? It seems arbitrary to say that a cohort is only a demographic if a book is written about them. Can you cite sources to support that opinion?
• What about the word "cohort"? It sounded like you would support that word alone.
• Can you speak to why you oppose micro-generation?
• Can you speak to why you support 1 & 2?

Kolya Butternut (talk) 04:59, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

• Not 2 Slightly pedantic point, but 2 is ungrammatical. Because the 'also known as' terms are in parenthesis, the subject of the main clause is just the term 'Xennials', and so it should be singular. The sentence should read ' Xennials (also known as...) is a term that describes... '. Beyond that, I don't have a strong view, although I like the fact that option 1 mentions that it's a neologism. GirthSummit _(blether) 19:33, 20 February 2019 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

edit warring

To editor DrKyleJaySmith: This is the pro forma request that you stop before we block you. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:42, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Edit warring about the intro

Taking this to the talk page because my compromise edit was reverted and the IP users continue to war with Butternut. The intro says "typically born in the late 1970s to early 1980s", and then sourced material says 1977 through 1985. IP users change it to mid 80's, because 1985 is somehow considered by them to be mid 80's, gosh who knew? Then Butternut reverts. My compromise edit was to specifically state the cited years, what was wrong with that? Well "they aren't typical years" according to the revert reason. That's confusing. So what do we find to be an edit that people will be happy with that will end the edit warring?--SexyKick 04:49, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Most of the sourced material uses years in the early eighties.  I was going to say we could quote the highest profile source, USA Today, but it seems to have disappeared. Kolya Butternut (talk) 05:38, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

Are any of these high profile enough? (Forbes?) [109] [110] [111]] [112] [113] [114] [115] [116] [117]--SexyKick 03:50, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Aren't those all just referencing Business Insider? And the Urban Institute is just creating ten-year cohorts which are not the standard generations. Obviously 1985 has been used, but I don't know how that compares to 1983 or other years. I haven't found 1985 used this year from Google Scholar.[118] But we could say that "sources have used the late seventies to early eighties or as late as 1985". "Mid-eighties" would include 1986, which I haven't seen. Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:20, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

What you just wrote sounds good to me, without the word "or".--SexyKick 07:28, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm concerned that if we write "and" it will sound like sources use the late seventies to 1985 to define xennials, when what we mean to say is that different sources use different years in the late seventies to 1985 to define xennials, or they just define them vaguely. What about "Researchers and popular media use birth years from the late 1970s to early 1980s or as late as 1985 as their defining range"? Kolya Butternut (talk) 14:25, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Yeah it sounds fine to me, what I meant above though was reading it without "or" made more sense to me, not "and" - "Researchers and popular media use birth years from the late 1970s to early 1980s as late as 1985 as their defining range" - I am not going to be picky about it myself though.--SexyKick 17:41, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I know this is OR, but these arbitrary time spans attributed to certain generations can be ridiculously inaccurate. I was born in 1986 and I grew up with "analog and digital technology" and also Oregon Trail. But alas...these sources, "experts" gonna expert, I suppose. Persistent Corvid (talk) 23:16, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

Changing the sentence in the first paragraph from "mid 70s to early 80s" into "late 70s to mid 80s"?

The information that's read on this article as well as sources cited state that the most common definition of a Xennial is almost always defined as 1977-1985. Since 1977 is the earliest starting range of a Xennial, wouldn't that be considered the late 70s? So from "mid 70s-early 80s" to "late 70s-mid 80s? I want to change it myself, but I wanted to ask permission first if someone disagrees with this. Maybe someone can edit it. 68.62.155.13 (talk) 21:23, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

I found another website that ends it in 1985. Wolf O'Donnel (talk) 00:46, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Lead

Missiontocode, discuss your changes here. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:35, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I went further back and copy-pasted the lead from that time. This version appears to have been stable for a year. EvergreenFir (talk) 22:36, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, there appears to be a discrepancy in the discussion about the Xennial year range ('77-'83). It is noteworthy that a significant number of publications support this range, which is more reflective of the majority perspective. While acknowledging the existence of varying opinions, it is crucial to recognize the prevailing consensus and the characterization of Xennials as a micro-generation on the cusp. The extension of the years, as currently presented, may be perceived as more subjective in nature.

Additionally, I would like to highlight the omission of valuable content related to Xennials:

The Xennial Career guide from Indeed.com (https://www.indeed.com/career-advice/career-development/xennials) provides practical insights and assistance specifically tailored to this demographic. Including such resources can enhance the overall usefulness of the Wikipedia page for readers interested in Xennials and their career development.

Furthermore, there is a missing reference to Xennials being among the first to experience computers in the classroom. The information is supported by a credible source from hackeducation.com (http://hackeducation.com/2015/02/25/kids-cant-wait-apple), and its inclusion would contribute to a more comprehensive understanding of the unique characteristics and experiences of Xennials. Missiontocode (talk) 23:00, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Missiontocode: Thank you for engaging here. Incorporating content from Indeed is probably not relevant. See WP:NOTGUIDE for guidance. If you have proposed text to add based on the hackeducation.com article, I suggest that you propose it here. I do not recommend adding directly to the article; your skills at editing text on Wikipedia are not currently good enough, previously resulting in very damaged prose. – Jonesey95 (talk) 00:07, 16 December 2023 (UTC)