Talk:Welsh Language Society

Untitled

This is almost entirely ripped from the http://cymdeithas.com/ website as extremely biased towards Welsh nationalism - in my experience Welsh is at the most a secondary language and is not used day-to-day in most of Wales, bar a few communities. (unsigned comment from User:82.71.17.57)

in my experience Welsh is at the most a secondary language and is not used day-to-day in most of Wales, bar a few communities.

Retrieved from "http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Welsh_Language_Society"

The above is clearly a very ignorant comment to make - nowehere in the article is it claimed that Welsh is a majority language. However, to say it is spoken in 'just a few communities' is ignorant in the extreme. Clearly, you have little understanding of the subject, and Welsh IS used day-to-day in Wales, in communities, in the media, and in government. If you do not realise this you either are not from Wales, or live in a cave. (and I did not write the article by the way). (unsigned comment from 81.110.93.3)

It also depends where in Wales you are. I barely heard any Welsh being spoken when I was a student in Swansea, but I heard lots when I was on holiday around Caernarfon. Thryduulf 12:42, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

The author of the top comment is obviously very confused - CYIG (Cymdeithas Yr Iaith Gymraeg)is a movement that was formed to campaign for the WELSH LANGUAGE not for independence or any type of "nationalism". CYIG has no ties with any political party, and therefore cannot in any way be biased to "Welsh nationalism" as s/he suggests. I also agree with the rest of the comments made by Thryduulf. (unsigned comment from User:Niall7890)

I have added the names of the originators to the various comments and indented them because I was getting confused! --Telsa (talk) 17:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Copyvio

The first comment on this talk page is all too accurate in one respect: it is almost entirely ripped from the Cymdeithas site, specifically the What is Cymdeithas page, and there is no sign that we have any permission to do this. I don't think that changing "we" to "they" absolves us from this. Examples:

• society's site: "...we believe in non-violent direct action, and in the course of our campaigns over a thousand people have appeared before the courts for their part in these campaigns, many serving prison sentences. These campaigns have resulted in many gains for the language, including two Welsh language acts, bilingual road signs, and the establishing of S4C, the Welsh language television channel. We are a voluntary movement entirely dependent on the support of our members and supporters to run our campaigns."
• current article: "Cymdeithas yr Iaith believes in non-violent direct action and in the course of their campaigns over a thousand people have appeared before the courts for their part in various campaigns, many receiving prison sentences. These campaigns have resulted in many gains for the language, including two Welsh language acts, bilingual road signs, and the establishing of S4C, the Welsh language television channel. "Cymdeithas" is a voluntary movement entirely dependent on its members and supporters to run its campaigns. Two full-time members of staff are employed at their head office in Aberystwyth, Ceredigion.

• society's site: "Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg are campaigning for the language in many fields: education, media and culture, planning, local authorities. At present we are calling for a new Welsh Language Act which covers the many fields ignored by previous legislation passed in 1993: e.g. the private sector."
• current article: "Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg are campaigning for the language in many fields: education, media and culture, planning, local authorities. At present they are calling for a new Welsh Language Act which covers the many fields ignored by previous legislation passed in 1993: e.g. telecommunications, the private sector. They have on occasions littered windows of shops that do not have Welsh or bilingual signs."

Ouch. I don't really want to list this on the copyvios page: the whole procedure is a hassle. But it definitely needs fixing. Or someone to get permission from the society, I suppose... --Telsa (talk) 17:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Article title

The society refers to itself as "Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg" in English. If no one protests, I will move the article. --MacRusgail 22:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Strongly Object- Please read WP:NC which state that "article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a minimum level of ambiguity, while making linking easy and second nature". I heavily doubt that any monolingual native English speaker Without any prior knowledge of Welsh (Which make up the bulk of the English Wikipedia) would find this name "easily recognizable" and "second nature". --William Howard Hart 22:51, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

This is just completely wrong. By all means have a redirect so that searches for the English name return the page, but the name of the organisation is Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, not "The Welsh Language Society". It's like saying that the wikipedia page for Ioan Gruffudd should be named "John Griffiths". It's nonsense, and, frankly, disrespectful. 2A00:23C6:3899:5901:FC66:2321:F8AE:C5CC (talk) 19:20, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Neutrality

I have marked this article to dispute it's neutrality.

Certain sections, particularly the one quoted below, read as if there is some deliberate defense of the society either by itself or by its members:

"The actions of the members are completely on their own accord and are in no way forced. The society shows determined actions against what they see is the criminal damage non-bilingual organizations are doing against the language and culture of Wales"

It reads like a press release or political statement. W gant 22:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Have worked on it a bit, removing some obviously biased stuff, and rephrasing some other bits as "they claim". Still not brilliantly happy with it, as the "they claim" bits are not generally sourced, though I didn't quite have the courage to just delete them entirely. — Alan^✉ 13:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Is this now enough to remove the POV tag? (Cleanup tag should almost certainly stay.) — Alan^✉ 14:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Even after your work, Alan, the explanation for the "this doesn't look neutral" complaints is that lots of the Wikipedia page is a WP:COPYVIO: it's still the Cymdeithas webpage, only with all the "we"s swapped to "they".

• society website: "Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society) is a pressure group campaigning for the future of the Welsh language."
• Wikipedia article: "Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (The Welsh Language Society), often abbreviated to Cymdeithas or Cymdeithas yr Iaith) is a pressure group in Wales campaigning for the future of the Welsh language."
• society website: "we believe in non-violent direct action, and in the course of our campaigns over a thousand people have appeared before the courts for their part in these campaigns, many serving prison sentences."
• Wikipedia article: "Cymdeithas yr Iaith believes in non-violent direct action and in the course of their campaigns over a thousand people have appeared before the courts for their part in various campaigns, many receiving prison sentences."
• society website: "The Welsh Language Act of 1993 declared that Welsh should be treated on the basis of equality with English. However this falls short of what is needed and we are calling for Welsh and English to be declared official languages in Wales. The lack of official status means that the Welsh language misses out on many crucial European grants."
• Wikipedia article:"The Welsh Language Act of 1993 declared that Welsh should be treated on an equal basis with English, but Cymdeithas yr Iaith argue that this falls short of what is needed, and that the lack of official status means that the Welsh language misses out on many crucial European grants. They are calling for Welsh and English to be declared official languages in Wales."

This has been the case for - ahem - two years. According to the copyvio policy page, I should simply have deleted them on sight, or listed the whole page for deletion. It's also Wikipedia policy to delete anything unsourced, although, looking at most of Wikipedia, I realise that this is hard to credit :). So, Alan, you are quite within your rights to delete what you can't verify. Anyway, I shall try and help with the article in a week or two. Or rope in someone more knowledgeable to do it instead :)

Telsa (talk) 08:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that would be great. — Alan^✉ 16:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

This has the potential to be a really interesting article, and I'm surprised no one from Cymdeithas itself hasn't had a better crack at it (it's no better on the Welsh wiki either). I've tried adding some more text and a few references to what existed already, but I'm not that great at digging things up + appart from BBC and icWales articles covering a demo that's taken place, not a lot has been written in English about CYIG.--Rhyswynne (talk) 16:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't see why we can't rely on sources in Welsh if needs be. — Alan^✉ 13:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Unreferenced statement

This was an incorrect statement, with a fact flag since February. It could have been deleted then. The true figure is 14%, but it's irrelevant to the article. I also put in a citation for Tynged yr Iaith. . . .LinguisticDemographer 14:42, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality (2)

Having read this article today 7/6/2008, I do belive that the Neutrality question has been solved. the recent corrections in my opinion have taken out any biast opinion.

If no one objects, then I shall remove the Neutrality Banner on August 1st. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Llywelyn2000 (talk • contribs) 15:22, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested move 14 July 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 08:40, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

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The Welsh Language Society → Welsh Language Society – The current title violates WP:THE. The initial capitalised definite article is not part of the official name as that is in Welsh: Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg, and in any case note WP:OFFICIALNAMES. Although some sources in English do capitalise the definite article (see the list that follows) there does not appear to be any basis for this, so it would be better to follow our usual policy.

As to whether the article title should be "Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg" or "Cymdeithas yr Iaith", as it is in most other language editions, "Welsh Language Society" is used by the following sources in English: BBC, Daily Mail, Metro, The Mirror, National Library of Wales, People's Collection Wales, Welsh Language Commissioner (etc.). Arguably the English form is therefore a WP:COMMONNAME (although this WalesOnline article does refer to the society primarily by its Welsh name). These sources almost invariably use the definite article in lowercase in running text. (The BBC article is the exception.) Ham II (talk) 21:11, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

• Support per nom. No need for the definite article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
• Support After looking over the qualifications of WP:THE and determining that the article does NOT qualify as an article that should have "the" in its article name, I can add my support. There appeared to me to be some confusion at first, as it appeared that the "THE" was almost universally used in reliable sources and I couldn't personally come up with a scenario when a "THE" would not be included, but the sources provided the the OP convinced me that the organization CAN be referred to without the the "THE".--JOJ ^Hutton 15:49, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

@Jojhutton: Thank you‍—‌nice to know that it was worthwhile hunting down the sources! :) Ham II (talk) 16:40, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Strongly disagree the english form is not the organisation's name at all, merely an explanatory translation. The organisation is "Cymdeithas Yr Iaith Gymraeg" - if you don't believe me, then just ask them. 2A00:23C6:3899:5901:FC66:2321:F8AE:C5CC (talk) 19:23, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

☝ There was supposed to be a colon after 'disagree'.

This page should be moved immediately to "Cymdeithas Yr Iaith Gymraeg", with redirects/aliases in place to catch searches for "Welsh Language Society" (with & without "The") 2A00:23C6:3899:5901:FC66:2321:F8AE:C5CC (talk) 19:28, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 29 September 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

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Welsh Language Society → Cymdeithas yr Iaith – Change in common name used by independent, reliable, English-language secondary sources, per WP:COMMONNAME – Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) over the last 12 months.

Note, COMMONNAME does not mean the most popular name per Google Trends or Google Search, as stated in WP:WIAN, but the COMMONNAME in sources.

As stated in the supporting evidence below, the lead of WLS in Ngrams has drastically reduced, with Welsh forms sometimes taking the lead, and Google News Articles from the last 12 months show more use of the Welsh name. Manually searching shows many publications in the UK and Wales use the Welsh name first or not in parenthesis, while possibly using WLS secondly, in parenthesis or as a potential descriptor. International recent sources are scarce, while many use WLS, they discuss past events which per WP:NAMECHANGES and WP:WIAN shouldn't be given too much weight in terms of context. Therefore decided there is a basis for a RM for consideration. DankJae 09:35, 29 September 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. BegbertBiggs (talk) 17:14, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

Sources: Review period: September 2022–September 2023; only includes sources from this period. [1] [2]

Note:

• Welsh Language Society

Shropshire Star Washington Post (note: discusses 1970s) CNN (note: discusses the 1960s) The Guardian (1970s caption only) Morning Star ([3]) BBC News (note: discusses an 1996 event) BBC(note: discusses 1982 S4C launch)

• Both equally with a slash (/) or unmodified.

WalesOnline(uses a comma, hard to decide preference) The Guardian (uses dash) The Conversation (uses dash)

• Cymdeithas yr Iaith

Daily Post (North Wales) ([4][5][6][7][8]) The Guardian ([9]) TUC BBC News ([10][11][12][13]) Sky News ([14]) Nation.Cymru ([15][16][17][18][19][20]) Morning Star WalesOnline ([21][22]) ITV News Wales County Times Western Telegraph Welsh Parliament Cambrian News North Wales Chronicle Rhyl Journal North Wales Pioneer Herald.Wales

• Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (Cymraeg)

Morning Star ([23]) ITV News Wales Evening Standard Independent The National (Scotland) The Guardian ([24][25]) Nation.Cymru Daily Post (North Wales)([26][27]) WalesOnline ([28][29]) Sky News ([30]) Institute of Welsh Affairs (note: discusses S4C launch)

Other evidence:

• Google Ngrams – WLS was preferred primarily in the past, but some recent years have CyI ahead. For 2019, combining the two forms of the Welsh Name, over takes the small 2019 lead of WLS.
• Google News results – Sorting per the last year, "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" produced 10 pages of news results, while "Welsh Language Society" produces 6 pages. Note, including articles more than a year old does lean more towards WLS, but limiting to recent results (~12 months), there is a majority for the Welsh name.

Diolch, insert comments below. DankJae 09:35, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Comment - Edit, I believe WP:UE sums up my argument. DankJae 20:17, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Notes

• Oppose per WP:ENGLISHTITLE. I appreciate the very thorough proposal, but the vast majority of readers of English Wikipedia will not understand Welsh, which is why guidelines favor using English names when they exist in reliable sources. Although Cymdeithas yr Iaith is used in many English language sources, as shown, it appears to be usually identified as Welsh, with the English name usually also used, at least in the sampling of links I've clicked, and is not often exclusively used without translation. As the Guardian notes in an amendment notice to an article linked in the proposal, "The Welsh Language Society should have had its Welsh name, Cymdeithas yr Iaith, first and not its English translation." In other words, Cymdeithas yr Iaith is Welsh even when used in English language sources, and has not (yet) been adopted into the English language. Station1 (talk) 07:24, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose for similar reasons to User:Station1. All of the examples that I've clicked on also use "Welsh Language Society". If there is a commonly used English language name we should use that on English language Wikipedia, whatever your personal views. Sionk (talk) 12:13, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

  While WP:ENGLISHTITLE and WP:ENGLISH do not technically exclude using foreign-language derived terms if they are used commonly by English-language sources. I guess the continued use of WLS, even as secondary, makes it harder to determine the true commonname. Some sources (those underlined) only used the Welsh-derived name, but that is not most, so I guess if WLS is continued to be used in anyway the status quo should be maintained. I'd keep that a note as I look through some article titles. Thanks for participating. DankJae 13:25, 9 October 2023 (UTC)

• Support - I should note that WP:USEENGLISH and its derivatives do not mandate the use of an English term – any English term – if it exists, but that it may be preferable. If a non-English term is the more common name in English-language RSes, we may use that. From OP's list of sources, I think we're in the same boat we were with Senedd; i.e. the Welsh-language term is typically used, but the first instance has a courtesy translation. I don’t think the provision of a courtesy translation is enough to argue that sources are divided on how to refer to the subject. Sceptre (talk) 11:28, 15 October 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose - As far as I know, the correct title of the organisation is still "Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg". Only for Welsh speakers is the shortened title (meaning simply "Language Society") meaningful. I don't mean that people shouldn't use that form, but to use it as the article title is simply incorrect. Deb (talk) 09:10, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

  There is no "correct title" per WP:OFFICIALNAME, only the most common. Many sources (those under CyI, underlined) only used "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" without Gymraeg or even the English translation, so many sources do not seem to have an issue with using the shortened title for its English-speaking audience. DankJae 10:39, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:USEENGLISH. Rreagan007 (talk) 20:06, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  That states The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject that is most common in the English language?? and Where there is an English word or an exonym for the subject but a native version is more common in English-language usage, the English name should be mentioned but should not be used as the article title. Nothing to do with banning non-English derived names. So not sure what part of that page justifies your opposition. DankJae 20:13, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

An earlier Welsh Language Society

It seems that there was a different Welsh Language Society in existence in 1914, as I've found while reading the first issue of the Welsh Outlook; see here. Ham II (talk) 19:47, 29 January 2024 (UTC)

I now think this must be what is elsewhere called the Society for the Utilisation of the Welsh Language, covered at cy:Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg (1885) and in this dissertation. Ham II (talk) 09:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 14 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 06:05, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

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Welsh Language Society → Cymdeithas yr Iaith – Cymdeithas yr Iaith is the common name for the organisation in both Welsh and English. "Welsh Language Society" is very rarely used on its own in the media and not by the organisation itself.

This is similar to Urdd Gobaith Cymru where the Welsh name is better known and more familiar than the English version of the name.

The Guardian, for general UK readers, uses "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" predominantly using ("the Welsh language society" or "The Welsh Language Society" as clarifications) https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/26/man-in-welsh-language-parking-penalty-battle-claims-company-harassed-him https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/11/welsh-language-speakers-census-carmathenshire https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/mar/06/i-was-lucky-the-asylum-seeker-campaigning-for-others-to-learn-welsh

The BBC uses Cymdeithas yr Iaith and sometimes clarifies with the english translation https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-67065122 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czvjj8n11pxo

When Alun Davies said in 2017 "I'm not here to please the Welsh Language Society" the BBC translated that into Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg in their headline suggesting that this is the commonly understood name for the organisation. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-politics-40878620

Wales Online uses Cymdeithas yr Iaith without translation https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/man-who-refused-pay-english-29164226 https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/cymdeithas-denies-terrorist-tag-2431233

Telegraph uses Cymdeithas yr Iaith without a translation https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/03/05/welsh-pub-boycott-calls-rebrand-english-name/

The national archives use "Cymdeithas yr Iaith (The Welsh Languaage Society). https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/c/F123638

An Open University article clarifies "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" with (Welsh Language society) but then uses Cymdeithas or Cymdeithas yr Iaith throughout. https://www.open.edu/openlearn/society-politics-law/sociology/contemporary-wales/content-section-6.2.1

Welsh gov uses Cymdeithas yr Iaith in English https://www.digitalcommunities.gov.wales/blog/welsh-on-the-web-our-responsibility-to-create-welsh-language-content-and-platforms/ Morwennol (talk) 10:55, 14 May 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 17:06, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Support, most of the time Welsh Language Society is largely a descriptive translation or secondary name, with more sources using only the Welsh name vs only using the English name, per my RM above, so WP:COMMONNAME. It is not an official name of the organisation itself (I believe since forever?), so debatable whether it even is a proper noun. Also the RM opposition above cited some confusing argument, taking one sentence in WP:ENGLISHTITLE to mean "do not use any foreign words", that would ban Médecins Sans Frontières, Senedd, or Ysbyty Gwynedd, and likely instead refers to descriptive names rather than (overwhelmingly) common proper nouns. "Gymraeg" is usually omitted including in articles by the organisation itself, so the "fullest name" isn't required as not as common. So support per nom. DankJae 19:09, 14 May 2024 (UTC)

I think there was a point in the past where "Welsh Language Society" was the common name in English language media for the organisation - which is probably why many especially England-based sources choose to use a parenthesised translation.

But today it would seem incredibly odd to use "Welsh Language Society" on its own so much so that it would feel like a deliberate political choice expressing hostility to the welsh language.

(incidentally the Daily Mail's actual news pages consistantly use "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" without translation or english qualification) Morwennol (talk) 13:55, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, on the basis we had this proposal a few months ago and nothing fundamental has changed since. I'm a Welsh speaker but this is the English language Wikipedia and there is clearly a commonly used English language name for this organisation - even the proposer admits that most of the examples above feel the need to use the English language name/translation. Even traditionally nationalist leaning Welsh media such as Nation.Cymru continue to feel the need to explain who Cymdeithas yr Iaith are. Sionk (talk) 10:26, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It's almost never the case that anyone refers to the Welsh Language Society on its own without saying "Cymdeithas yr Iaith (the Welsh Language Society)" or similar so I disagree that the English name is commonly used. If it's only ever used as a translation/clarification it's not the common name.

I raised this as I personally found it confusing as a wikipedia user that when I searched for "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" in wikipedia and the instant search results didn't return a page name - I imagine it would be even more confusing for a non-welsh speaker, seeing Cymdeithas in the news (perhaps without a translation) who doesn't know that Cymdeithas yr Iaith means Welsh Language Society as they'd struggle to find the right page, particularly as you get results for Cymdeithas Edward Llwyd and Cymdeithas y Dysgwyr - which I'd never heard of - above the obvious and well known Cymdeithas.

It feels really bizarre, anachronistic and confusing, not to mention in breach of WP:COMMONNAME.

WP:TITLEVAR also suggests that titles should reflect usage in the appropriate national variety of English. So the title should defer to how Cymdeithas is referred to in Welsh English. That's almost always "Cymdeithas" or "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" and never Welsh Language Society on its own. Morwennol (talk) 11:39, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

There's an irony here that wikipedia itself seems to prefer "Cymdeithas yr Iaith (the Welsh Language Society)" on other pages unless talking about the organisation historically

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?fulltext=1&search=%22Cymdeithas+yr+Iaith%22&title=Special%3ASearch&ns0=1

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?search=%22Welsh+Language+Society%22&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1 Morwennol (talk) 11:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per @Sionk who succinctly summarizes why non-Welsh people are not going to bother typing the Welsh name on an English language website. Killuminator (talk) 23:54, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

@Killuminator Most English-language sources use the Welsh name, so they have no issue. Readers are not dumb and redirects exist. Should we rename Plaid Cymru to Party of Wales? or for the matter Taoiseach to Prime Minister of Ireland? We should follow what’s used in English, not what is from English or most “convenient” by personal opinion. If Welsh names are a hassle on English Wikipedia should all Welsh names be removed for English equivalents? DankJae 01:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

the English language name is barely used in English language sources. WP:COMMON NAME and WP:UE are clear on this. Most people know the organisation only by its Welsh name as that is what's used in the media most often.

It's confusing and anachronistic for Wikipedia to be the only place to use Welsh Language Society over Cymdeithas yr Iaith (and it's also confusing that elsewhere on wikipedia Cymdeithas yr Iaith is used). Morwennol (talk) 06:18, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Welsh names aren't "a hassle" on English Wikipedia. But as I've previously said, this is the English language Wikipedia. There is a redirect here from Cymdeithas yr Iaith to this article, as well as a very lengthy article about Cymdeithas yr Iaith on Wicipedia Cymraeg. Sionk (talk) 09:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

We should use the common name as used in English-language sources, not exclusively use names from English. All I am getting is “Welsh is too hard for most readers, so it has an English name, use that”. Even if it has an English name, Wikipedia uses what’s common in English sources, while sources may give a description of what CyI are for their readers, it is usually a description not a common nor proper name and many more sources don’t use a description at all just “Cymdeithas yr Iaith”. Otherwise we’ll be using Welsh Parliament over Senedd. DankJae 09:58, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Looking at the history of this article it was Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg until 2011 when it was boldly moved by a guy from Utah. And the rest of wikipedia currently reflects that usage.

https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Welsh_Language_Society&diff=466945688&oldid=466424483

That might have been justified then (but would probably have merited a discussion) under WP:COMMONNAME but it certainly isn't now (I've seen sources from years preceding 2011 use "Welsh Language Society" on its own possibly as often as Cymdeithas yr Iaith, but that's extremely rare now and Cymdeithas yr Iaith and Cymdeithas are the generally used forms).

I think there's a degree of overcorrection here based on debates around Snowdon/Yr Wyddfa and Brecon Beacons/Bannau Brycheiniog and so on where IMO the scales fall do on the other side - the English names are still the common names in English.

But I find it genuinely hard to understand why given WP:COMMONNAME and WP:UE as stated, and the body of contemporary evidence favouring "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" (possibly with courtesy translation). It's completely out-of-step with what everyone else is using and that just looks anachronistic and weird. Morwennol (talk) 10:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Support. It's clearly the common name. 'Welsh Language Society' will remain as a redirect, so anyone typing the English translation of the name into the search bar will reach the right article. A.D.Hope (talk) 09:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support – as I said in the previous RM, the common name in English speech is still clearly the Welsh-language name. WP:UE, after all, doesn't say "use the English name"; it says "use the name that's most commonly used in English", which is different (c.f. Senedd, not Welsh Parliament). The provision of a parenthetical courtesy translation doesn't change that, in my view. Sceptre (talk) 21:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support. The sources provided by the nominator show that the proposed title is in fact the commonly used name in the English language for the organization. ~~ Jessintime (talk) 18:31, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per policy at WP:ENGLISHTITLE: "On the English Wikipedia, article titles are written using the English language". I don't think there's any question that "Welsh Language Society" is English and "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" is Welsh. Certainly it's crucial in the body of the article and useful as a redirect (even if it averages fewer than 2 hits per day), but usually needs to be translated and is not an English loanword like coup d'etat, the example given in the policy, which is virtually never translated. Station1 (talk) 18:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  And yet WP:UE says "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage, e.g. the non-anglicized titles Besançon, Søren Kierkegaard, and Göttingen are used because they predominate in English-language reliable sources, whereas for the same reason the anglicized title forms Nuremberg, delicatessen, and Florence are used (as opposed to Nürnberg, Delikatessen, and Firenze, respectively)."

  The name for this page ought to be guided by WP:COMMONNAME and by the common name in reliable English language sources and that is clearly Cymdeithas yr Iaith. "Welsh Language Society" is almost never used in contemporary English-langauge sources except as a courtesy translation, or sometimes when talking about the organisation historically.

  The reason cymdeithas yr iaith tends to be translated in England-based sources is because of the lack of familiarity of general English readers (the Guardian offers a courtesy translation for Urdd Gobaith Cymru too but no-one would seriously suggest that organisation's name on wikipedia should be "the Welsh League of Hope" and I suspect most English speakers in Wales would be completely unaware that the Urdd was "the Welsh League of Hope").

  In welsh sources such as Wales Online , Nation.cymru the organisation is frequently referred to as Cymdeithas yr Iaith or Cymdeithas with no courtesy translation. Occasionally those sources do provide a courtesy translation but that doesn't change the fact that they often do not. Morwennol (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  A translation, courtesy or otherwise, requires the words being translated to be in another language. Most English-language sources linked in this discussion and the previous RM translate the Welsh name to English. The Guardian, as pointed out in the previous discussion, specifically says that Cymdeithas yr Iaith, even though it should be written first, is Welsh and should be followed by the English translation. I agree that "[t]he reason cymdeithas yr iaith tends to be translated in England-based sources is because of the lack of familiarity of general English readers", and that is the same reason for our policy favoring English-language article titles. Station1 (talk) 06:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Das Kapital and Mein Kampf have common English translations yet the common name is correctly used on Wikipedia.

  Cymdeithas aren't well known outside of Wales as the Welsh Language Society or otherwise. In Wales, they are normally called "Cymdeithas yr Iaith" or "Cymdeithas" for short.

  Your argument involves ignoring all the sources that use Cymdeithas yr Iaith and Cymdeithas untranslated and I don't see any evidence from any of the opposers that Welsh Language Society is the common name.

  As I've said, Wikipedia is an outlier in using the name Welsh Language Society primarily. It's at least possible that the reason English-based journalists are using a courtesy translation is because Wikipedia is still clinging to the outdated English name. Morwennol (talk) 07:03, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Roughly a quarter of visits to this page are via redirects from "Cymdeithas yr Iaith Gymraeg" or "Cymdeithas yr Iaith". Given a large proportion of the others are likely to be links from other pages since there are 357 other pages that link to it - i suspect the fact that such a large proportion of page views come from redirects suggest that the current title is incorrect.

  https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/redirectviews/?project=wiki.riteme.site&platform=all-access&agent=user&range=latest-90&sort=views&direction=1&view=list&page=Welsh%20Language%20Society Morwennol (talk) 19:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Station1, by that logic we shouldn't use Médecins Sans Frontières or Île-de-France, but we do because they're used. Sources here overwhelmingly use Cymdeithas yr Iaith in English. DankJae 21:01, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  Médecins Sans Frontières' title is somewhat controversial judging by its talkpage, but the twist there is that there might be a WP:ENGVAR issue. Apparently, untranslated Médecins Sans Frontières is more common in Britain while Doctors Without Borders is more common in America. Without doing any research, my guess on Île-de-France is that it's never translated into English. Conversely, Cymdeithas yr Iaith is usually translated. Station1 (talk) 06:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  The fact that the name of the organisation is given in Welsh and then translated does indicate that the Welsh name is the common name for our purposes. The English name alone does not appear to be frequently used any more, so it isn't the common name. A.D.Hope (talk) 10:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Cymdeithas yr Iaith is the common name in Welsh. Welsh Language Society is the common name in English. Our policy favors English in article titles. Station1 (talk) 17:51, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Wikipedia favours using English titles over non-English titles when they are the most commonly used name in English sources.

  Your position seems to be that if ten sources use "Cymdeithas yr iaith" and ten use "Cymdeithas yr iaith (Welsh language society)" when introducing the organisation (then Cymdeithas yr Iaith everywhere else in the article - as this does), then Welsh language society and Cymdeithas yr Iaith are equally commonly used - despite all of the sources using one form multiple times and only some of the sources using the other on one occasion.

  That clearly would have the capacity to cause confusion for readers, especially those who don't speak welsh.

  If I was to change the Sinn Fein wikipedia page to "We Ourselves" or Plaid Cymru to "the Party of Wales" that wouldn't be clearer than their current titles, despite now being certifiably in English. That's because most English speakers who are aware of those organisations know them by their Irish and Welsh names respectively.

  The same is absolutely true with Cymdeithas. Those who are aware of the organisation call it Cymdeithas or Cymdeithas yr Iaith and that usage is reflected in reliable English language sources. Morwennol (talk) 18:13, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for laying out the 'support' position clearly. Changing Station1's mind isn't the point of this move request, of course, but I hope the closer takes your points into consideration. A.D.Hope (talk) 18:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  I completely agree with that sentiment. Likewise, I don't expect to change Morwennol's mind or yours, but I hope I've laid out the opposition argument clearly. Civil discussions such as this hopefully benefit other readers who come along as well as whoever closes this request. Station1 (talk) 19:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.