Talk:Victor Amadeus II

On 11 January 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Victor Amadeus II of Savoy. The result of the discussion was Moved to Victor Amadeus II.

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"Victor Amadeus I of Sardinia" listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Victor Amadeus I of Sardinia and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 January 3 § Victor Amadeus I of Sardinia until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. ThadeusOfNazereth(he/him)^{Talk to Me!} 20:16, 3 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 11 January 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Victor Amadeus II. Per consensus. (closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky (talk) 09:12, 19 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Victor Amadeus II of Sardinia → Victor Amadeus II of Savoy – I would argue that Savoy is the region most associated with him, and so it should be in the title per WP:SOVEREIGN. He was the king of Sardinia 1720–1730 and the Duke of Savoy for 1675–1730, and though this isn't proof by itself, this does mean that the majority of sources on him focus primarily on Savoy.

Google Ngram data shows that he is more commonly referred to as being of Savoy within books, and Wikipedia page view data shows that Victor Amadeus II of Savoy consistently gets 25–50% of the main page's views (sans redirects), which is fairly significant. Randi Moth (talk) 22:00, 11 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose proposal, but would ~~consider~~ support a move to bare Victor Amadeus II ~~along with all of his successors that aren't there yet~~ (struck per my comment below). Srnec (talk) 00:40, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SOVEREIGN notes that, unless an overwhelmingly common name exists (e.g. Louis XIV), a king should have the location within the title. One of the pages given as an example of that rule is Edward I of England, to which Edward I redirects. Even though Victor Amadeus II is a more concise title name with an unambiguous primary topic, it doesn't seem like it's an overwhelmingly common name for him in English, so Victor Amadeus II of Savoy as the title fits the established conventions better. Randi Moth (talk) 16:07, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And an immediate rebuttal to my own point: As it seems, recently a consensus has been forming to forego that rule in WP:SOVEREIGN and instead go for the concise title names, such as shown in successful moves for French or Swedish monarchs. Therefore, the point with "established conventions" is moot. With this in mind: one of the points that's possible to bring up is consistency of article names of different monarchs of the same country. For the house of Savoy within Sardinia, Charles Felix of Sardinia is the only one who is deemed ambiguous enough to not have a redirect from Charles Felix: the rest all do from the title without the location. Consistency may or may not apply here.

With this in mind, I don't actually have a clear preference between Victor Amadeus II or Victor Amadeus II of Savoy, but I'd support either one above the current name. I would edit the move request to represent this, but I'm not sure whether this is allowed. Randi Moth (talk) 17:08, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note that if we move just this title to the simpler form, we will have perfect consistency. All the dukes before VAII are "[name] [ordinal], Duke of Savoy", all the kings after are "[name] [ordinal] of Sardinia". Then we get to Victor Emmanuel II at the simple title (and for the same reason) followed by his successors at "[name] [ordinal] of Italy". In other words, exceptions to the rules at constitutional inflection points. Srnec (talk) 22:03, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Victor Amadeus II. As Savoy was a ducal title, WP:SOVEREIGN would hold that the appropriate "...of Savoy" syntax would be Victor Amadeus II, Duke of Savoy, but it seems suboptimal to use a "Duke of X" article title for a figure who also ruled as a king. Meanwhile, although the current title is appropriately formatted under WP:SOVEREIGN, the nominator's Ngram evidence makes a convincing case that the "...of Savoy" title is the more common name. Consequently, I think the best solution here is to move to the bare title Victor Amadeus II and circumvent the issues with either longer form. It may sacrifice consistency, but that's offset by a gain in concision. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:54, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support as nominator – Indeed, it's a blunder on my part that I didn't validate entirely whether the "... of Savoy" syntax is correct. I agree that Victor Amadeus II is the preferred outcome. Randi Moth (talk) 20:20, 13 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.