Talk:Vehicle miles traveled tax

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Sources to add

I'll try to add these to the article eventually, if I get a chance. MakeBelieveMonster (talk) 19:50, 11 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 26 December 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. No sources were cited in support of the move, so the introductory essay had no legs to stand on. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 03:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Vehicle miles traveled tax → Vehicle miles traveled fee – I changed the word tax to fee because a charge based on VMT is generally, and more frequently, referred to as a VMT fee not tax in the literature. This practice is correct because a fee is a charge for use of a service or amenity, the amount of which is related to the cost of providing that service or amenity. The key feature of fees is that the user of a given good or service pays, and the funds collected are related to the purpose of providing the good or service. Here a fee is paid for miles driven to pay for the cost of providing a transportation system. A tax, on the other hand, while it may be applied to a particular good or service or more generally to the population at large, is collected to raise general purpose revenues. Taxes collected may be unrelated, or completely disproportionate, to expenditures. Thus, taxes on sales of goods or services are not necessarily related to the cost of providing the goods or services taxed. That is not the concept behind a VMT charge. --Relisted. — Amakuru (talk) 12:27, 3 January 2014 (UTC) Wikiuser1966 (talk) 19:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

An interesting essay by User:Wikiuser1966 but the sources cited seem to favour "tax". Any evidence for a move based on the common name used in reliable sources? — AjaxSmack 03:26, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Since no such evidence has been brought forth, oppose per WP:UCN (use common names). It is not up to Wikipedia editors to decide correct usage but to reflect what other sources use. — AjaxSmack 21:37, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - I think that tax is the correct term. From the fee article: "In government, the difference between a fee and a tax is that a fee is paid for specific goods or services rendered by the government, while a tax has no connection to the benefits received for an individual." MakeBelieveMonster (talk) 00:16, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support - A VMT charge is not a tax because it does have a direct connection to benefits received by an individual. It pays for the use of the road or transportation system. The VMT fee is charged to pay for the specific use of the transportation system, not for K-12 education nor for the administration of the courts, for example, so it is a fee. The title should be changed.--Snow37 (talk) 19:00, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. At best at this point we can probably say that what it is varies by jurisdiction. So unless we have a compelling reason to change it should stay where it is. As far as a statement like it is not a tax because it does have a direct connection to benefits received by an individual, does that make the sales taxes I pay in another state or country that support something that does not benefit me, say a school, now a fee? Vegaswikian (talk) 22:42, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - The term "VMT" is directly related to the legal position for the specific jurisdiction. It may or may not be a tax, and certainly in the most advanced example of this (Oregon) it IS a tax, and is explicitly said to be so by those responsible for it. Overall, it is worth noting that distance based road charging (which is what this has been called in the past and in other countries) has been around for decades. Four US states still have it for trucks, and given the five countries that have it don't call it this, then debate about nomenclature may be better subsumed into the introduction by called it VMT, distance based road user charging, time/distance/place based charging, distance based tolls and mileage based usage fees. Libertyscott (talk) 15:26, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- With regard to Oregon's Road Usage Charge Program, it is explicitly not a tax. The Senate Bill passed in the summer of 2012 clearly establishes a program to collect a "road usage charge" and nowhere in the bill is it described as a tax.(http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/RUFPP/docs/sb0810b.pdf) Reputable news sources like the ''Economist'' and the ''Atlantic'' use the term "fee" to describe Oregon's program.(http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21588097-oregon-wants-tax-motorists-miles-driven-not-petrol-burned-will-it-work-roads-less) (http://www.theatlanticcities.com/commute/2013/01/oregon-pushing-ahead-road-use-fees/4434/)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

User:Wikiuser1966 states that "a fee is a charge for use of a service or amenity, the amount of which is related to the cost of providing that service or amenity" but most of the proposals mentioned in the article are not that. A true "fee" by your reckoning would charge small family cars almost nothing while charging exorbitant amounts to lorries/trucks as they are the cause of most road wear. Other options in the article are also not fee-like in structure. Variables rates depending on congestion or emissions are taxes on the time, place, or mode driving and not fees for usage of roads. — AjaxSmack 03:26, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User:AjaxSmackstarted a survey to help determine whether the article should be named “Vehicle miles traveled tax” or “Vehicle miles traveled fee.” I appreciate the careful consideration of this decision and look forward to input. I followed the lead of the question AjaxSmack started and checked the common usage of the term. It appears that sources refer to it as a fee (most often), tax (relatively frequently), and charge (sometimes). I don’t think that the correct term for this policy can be determined on the common usage basis, but I do think that the proper term is a fee. The VMT fee, in all of its proposed forms, charges people not in the narrow sense for the additional maintenance required as a result of the use of the road by a vehicle, but for the costs such driving incurs for the transportation system as a whole. So while weight and size of the car matters for maintenance, so does driving during congested time periods, which increases the costs to building and running a transportation system more than driving during times when there is no traffic. Likewise, increased emissions impose higher costs on the transportation system since air pollution has to be mitigated. Also, perfect proportionality between the increased cost to the system and use of it does not define whether something is a fee or a tax. It is sufficient, if the amount of the fee is related to the cost of providing the service or amenity. The gas tax, on the other hand, is a tax, since it charges people per gallon or liter consumed and the cost of the tax is completely unrelated to what it takes to provide that gasoline to the consumer.Wikiuser1966 (talk) 16:18, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If we are to use the common name of the charge, as User:AjaxSmack stated, then I propose changing the title to "Vehicle Miles Traveled Fee and Tax" since both terms are used interchangeably. One article cited on the page uses fees, charges, and taxes interchangeably appearing 4, 3, and 2 times respectively.(http://tollroadsnews.com/news/us-officials-very-interested-in-vmtroad-use-charges---itsa-people) Wikiuser1966 (talk) 15:38, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.