Talk:Tornado outbreak of November 29–30, 2022

Flatwood–Willow Springs, Alabama
EF2 tornado
Highest winds	120 mph (190 km/h);
Max. rating1	EF2 tornado
Fatalities	2 fatalities, 2 injuries
	1Most severe tornado damage; see Enhanced Fujita scale

Weather: Thunderstorms / Tornadoes Low‑importance

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there was a confirmed tornado that just passed clarks mississippi

add that. Poodle23 (talk) 00:13, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Clarks"? I don't see a SPC report on this. Sarrail (talk) 00:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

there was an observed tornado that passed it based on NWS tornado warnings. Poodle23 (talk) 00:27, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any other information on this (e.g. intensity, time, reliable source)? Sarrail (talk) 00:29, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

no not really. fineeeeee Poodle23 (talk) 00:30, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

We generally don't add tornadoes in the basis of tornado warnings. Especially since, earlier this year, we had a tornado emergency, but there was no tornado. TornadoLGS (talk) 00:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

trying to be a wikipedia editor is like trying to beat dark souls Poodle23 (talk) 00:36, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There have been many tornado touchdowns in multiple states, including Mississippi, Louisiana, Alabama, and portions of Eastern Texas and Western Tennessee. Cities include Memphis, Nashville, Jackson (MS), Knoxville (TN), and Huntsville (AL). So far, most of the tornadoes were rated EF1, but Memphis reported two EF2 tornadoes and Huntsville has reported a third EF2 on the south side of the city. Also, it is believed the outbreak has started on November 28, 2022, the reason being because many people reported very severe weather in cities like Lafayette (LA) and Little Rock (AR). Anyway, there is a lot of debris and I believe Jackson recorded wind speeds of 60 MPH at approximately 3:30PM. This is all I know as of right now. User:LoveHop123 — Preceding undated comment added 01:51, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That would need a source. Tornadoes usually don't get rated until a day or so after the fact. Unless you talking about preliminary guesstimates from The Weather Channel or something like that. TornadoLGS (talk) 02:55, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to know why this article was made so early on. The most damage I've seen from ANY tornado is probably EF2 at best. We should've waited until at least tomorrow to move this article to the main space. ChessEric (talk · contribs) 04:06, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See this comment after it was moved to article space. Sarrail (talk) 04:11, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I did the move similar to how we moved the Nov 4 one prior to ratings. In this case, the outbreak is notable for an article, no matter the max ratings due to the two PDS tornado watches and moderate risks, especially with it being the first November PDS tornado watches since 2013. Could we have waited, sure, but just doing a google search also shows an extremely high amount of news articles, even on the national level. If it turns out to have been a small outbreak, then it will probably be a smaller article like Tornado outbreak of March 5–7, 2022. Elijahandskip (talk) 04:21, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Okay fine. Just don't make it a habit. ChessEric (talk · contribs) 05:38, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There wasn't a tornado near TN during the event, it verified more south. Acedog11 (talk) 02:54, 3 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Check out YouTube if you don't believe me. I'm telling you. There have been many CONFIRMED touchdowns in those regions. User:LoveHop123

YouTube isn't generally considered a reliable source. Additionally, NWS is currently surveying the damage, and there has been some tornado touchdowns, but we need to wait until they've assessed all the damage. Sarrail (talk) 22:56, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely true. Poodle23 (talk) 00:20, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

add the tilton tornado

there was a tornado SW of tilton (based on SPC reports) so add that. possible debris was reported as well. Poodle23 (talk) 00:48, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

in mississippi by the way Poodle23 (talk) 00:48, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

oh and also SPC reports say a tornado happened SE of clarks. go add that. Poodle23 (talk) 00:54, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Working Me and Elijahandskip edit conflicted, so this might take some time... Sarrail (talk) 00:56, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

okie dokie, should be good. this could be almost as bad or even worse than the november 4 outbreak. we'll just have to wait and see. Poodle23 (talk) 00:57, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done. I'll be up all night and updating this... guess we'll wait and see. Sarrail (talk) 01:04, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

ok :) Poodle23 (talk) 01:05, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Flatwood Community EF2 rating

I’m assuming good faith with United States Man’s rating upgrade, but is there a source for the EF2 rating? Elijahandskip (talk) 18:30, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing on the Damage Assessment Toolkit, not on any NWS Twitter feeds, nada on Google. I think a gun was jumped and I can't figure out why. Penitentes (talk) 18:52, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Dang, looks like we've got/or close to an edit war between two editors, per the page history. Sarrail (talk) 18:59, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for stating the obvious. Nicholas Krasznavolgyi has no respect for long-established users that know what they are doing. United States Man (talk) 19:02, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If your definition of disrespect is someone correcting you for a mistake, then that is just a foolish statement. I'm trying to get you to understand that if there is no source, it should not be added in. I do not care if you've been a long-established user either, that doesn't make you better than everyone else and make you correct about every little thing. Nicholas Krasznavolgyi (talk) 19:08, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The tornado was rated EF2. You appear to have made the mistake. United States Man (talk) 19:22, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Where did that information appear before NWS Birmingham tweeted it out at 07:25 UTC? It would be really helpful to know for future ratings. The Caldwell tornado still has no public reference supporting an EF2 rating (yet!). Penitentes (talk) 19:26, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Cardwell is confirmed via Twitter. United States Man (talk) 19:30, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As of now i'm not seeing an official report about Caldwell, there's a tweet from a meteorologist essentially playing telephone, but even she mentions that the official report is coming out later today or tonight Acedog11 (talk) 19:40, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It was upgraded to EF-2 after this whole ordeal, you're still at fault for the ignorant removal of the preliminary EF-1 rating before it was JUST upgraded, Mr. Long-established User. Nicholas Krasznavolgyi (talk) 19:27, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I don't make ignorant edits. I wouldn't have added that without seeing a source first lol. United States Man (talk) 19:30, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If you did see the source, you should've added it. I feel as if a long-established user like you should know that! Nicholas Krasznavolgyi (talk) 19:35, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

NWS preliminary results

Just to help keep track (as results are very much preliminary and the table is in a mild edit war) - listing all NWS tornadic damage survey results that I see here.

Penitentes (talk) 19:17, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Extremely handy! if I find examples of them doing more i'll send em here too. Acedog11 (talk) 19:21, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Two different staff (1 intern, 1 met) at KNOE 8 News reporting that the NWS has assigned a preliminary EF2 rating to the Caldwell Parish tornado. No word from NWS Shreveport itself yet. Penitentes (talk) 19:51, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Four surveys released. [1]. Elijahandskip (talk) 23:49, 30 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This doesn’t need an article

Why do I have to re-explain this every time? Every little rash of strong tornadoes (and this one is only two EF2s so far), doesn’t need it’s own article. Unless an EF3 or a considerable amount of EF2s are confirmed (and that’s still a stretch), this needs to be gone. I swear every single year I explain this, along with other editors, and you all still keep jumping the gun. I mean we’d have an article every week from April through May if the bar for articles has sunk this low. Enough is enough; get it together and stop geeking out for an article after every moderate tornado event. Articles are for SIGNIFICANT EVENTS that can’t be summarized on the main page. This doesn’t even come close to meeting that criteria. TornadoInformation12 (talk) 00:29, 1 December 2022 (UTC)TornadoInformation12[reply]

The survey is still ongoing. Did you read this part? The NWS is still surveying the damage, and an EF3 just showed up, but if there isn't notability on this, then an proposed deletion may be started. However, let's wait for now, as the damage totals are starting to come in. Sarrail (talk) 01:05, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's definitely a marginal event, but I think with an EF3, two deaths from an EF2, and probably around 25-30 tornadoes by the end of the surveying, it's going to be hard to delete it. United States Man (talk) 01:19, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm predicting at least 18-20 tornadoes will be confirmed by the end of the surveys. Just a prediction, however, so things could change. Poodle23 (talk) 01:29, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok so I really wasn’t expecting any EF3s at all so I’ll eat crow on this one, as we’ve got at least two. This now has enough for an article, even though at first glance it didn’t, so my bad with the reaction. I’ll have to this in mind in the future. TornadoInformation12 (talk) 03:24, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Its fine. I've had this happen before. I actually started this project as a draft, and have been skeptical to its conversion to a full on article up until now, as more substancial reports have started to arrive. It should not be difficult to delete it if necessary. Mjeims (talk) 03:28, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@TornadoInformation12: Its alright. I literally had the same reaction when this article was moved to the mainspace before the outbreak really got going in Alabama. I do want to remind everyone, however, that jumping the gun with every outbreak that occurs is not a good idea. This one barely made the cut, but slow down before you create these because if the outbreak doesn't live up to what we think, we will have wasted a lot of time for an article that is just going to be redirected in the end. ChessEric (talk · contribs) 19:42, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

They did say a ef3+ could of happen, which it did but only to trees Lolkikmoddi-h3t3 :D (talk) 19:58, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

well at least we got an EF3. Poodle23 (talk) 20:25, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Draft of North Montgomery tornado

This large, deadly tornado first touched down at 3:14 a.m. CST in Elmore County, just north of the city of Montgomery. It moved northeastward along Alabama River Parkway at EF0 strength, causing minor damage to an outbuilding and blowing over a retaining wall. It then crossed the Alabama River into Montgomery County, where it began to steadily strengthen as it snapped large branches off of trees. The tornado reached EF1 strength as it crossed Coosada Ferry Road north of Boylston, snapping multiple trees. Continue to strengthen as it moved along Williams Drive, the tornado partially removed the roof of a shop and rolled and destroyed an unanchored mobile home, injuring the occupant. Another mobile home on the edge of the path suffered EF0 roof damage as well. As the tornado approached the intersection of Williams Drive and Franson Road, it reached low-end EF2 intensity. Two mobile homes were completely obliterated with debris from the structures blown into nearby trees. The tornado then entered Flatwood at peak strength; many homes had considerable roof damage as well as damage from trees falling on them. One tree along Williams Drive was uprooted and fell on a manufactured home, killing two people and seriously injuring another person. The concrete masonry unit community center also suffered collapse of all its exterior walls. Maintaining EF2 strength, the tornado crossed Lower Wetumpka Road twice, continuing to snap and uproot trees and cause roof damage, with one home suffering having its roof totally removed. A couple wooden transmission line poles fell north of Anderson Road. The tornado then briefly weakened back to EF1 strength as it crossed the Tallapoosa River back into Elmore County, before reaching EF2 strength again as it approached and crossed over US 231/SR 21 in Willow Springs. A large swath of trees was downed and several homes along Jasmine Hill Road and Willow Springs Road were damaged by falling trees. The tornado then began to quickly weaken after that, inflicting minor roof damage to house and snapping more trees and branches before dissipating at 3:28 a.m. CST.

ChessEric (talk · contribs) 20:29, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I made changes to this, but I think a section for this tornado is highly unnecessary. Not enough overall damage or long enough path length to justify it. A tree falling on a mobile home isn't grounds for a whole section. United States Man (talk) 20:48, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I know. It was just a suggestion, which is why I put it here instead of the article itself. ChessEric (talk · contribs) 20:51, 1 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Reason for deletion

Seemingly not notable enough for an article, as underlined by the preparations and impacts. Two deaths isn’t always notable enough for a tornado article; we don’t have one for the Gaylord Tornado, and this was even less notable due to fewer injuries. The fact it was the second ever PDS tornado warning issued in November can fit in Tornadoes of 2022#November 29–30. 12.207.51.104 (talk) 13:44, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hey. I see you added an AfD template, then a talk page message. I’m not sure if you intended to do an AfD, since that requires the creation of a separate page. Since you didn’t actually create/finish the AfD, I went ahead and removed the incomplete template and did a PROD on behalf of you, since it appears that was more the intention with a template followed by talk page reason. I hope that is ok. Elijahandskip (talk) 15:49, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than deleting the article, I would support a redirect to Tornadoes of 2022#November 29–30. Sarrail (talk) 17:39, 26 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I’m actually feeling like the article can be kept. It’s a weak keep, but a keep nonetheless. Clarity note: The PROD earlier was on behalf of another editor, not endorsed by myself and it has since been removed by a third editor. Elijahandskip (talk) 06:37, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So can someone nominate it for AFD then? The only reason I didn’t set up a template the first time is because IPs can’t set up templates. 13:50, 27 December 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.207.51.104 (talk)

Is an AfD really necessary? The PROD was removed due to this talk page discussion ongoing. Elijahandskip (talk) 14:33, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Talk page discussions usually fizzile out. AFD is better because it garners more widespread discussion while also forcing a decision at some point. 12.207.51.104 (talk) 16:49, 27 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

Since it appears the AFD won’t be created, I’d like to propose a merge. This article is very short on impact and mostly consists of universities closing and power outages, which is a little bit WP:ROUTINE. Two death isn’t automatically notable enough for an article - we don’t have an article on the Gaylord, MI tornado, for example. 25 tornadoes is relatively small for an outbreak to have an article and the only EF3 impacted rural areas. PDS tornado warnings do not determine notability. As such, I am proposing a merge into Tornadoes of 2022. This article can fit within Tornadoes of 2022#November 29-30. 12.207.51.104 (talk) 16:18, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose — 2 fatalities as well as 7 significant tornadoes (total of 25 in the end) is enough for a smaller tornado outbreak article. NWS and broadcast meteorologists also made a big deal about the EF3 ground scouring right as it touched down ([2][3][4][5]). Elijahandskip (talk) 16:28, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If 7 significant tornadoes was significant enough for an article, then the May 30 tornado outbreak would also have an article. 12.207.51.104 (talk) 16:37, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

May 30th didn’t have any fatalities. Elijahandskip (talk) 16:51, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

true, but we have many tornado outbreak articles without fatalities. Examples include Tornado outbreak of July 28-29, 2021, Tornado outbreak of May 2-4, 2021 and Tornado outbreak of March 16-18, 2021. 12.207.51.104 (talk) 16:53, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mind you that the Tornado outbreak of May 2–4, 2021 was an article I made and moved to the main page prematurely; it was only allowed to stay mostly due to the sheer number of tornadoes that occurred during the outbreak, which included a minimal amount of strong tornadoes. The Tornado outbreak of July 28–29, 2021 was a significant tornado event in an area that doesn't see that many strong outbreaks, especially given the time of year, while the Tornado outbreak of March 16–18, 2021 was the 6th largest tornado event in the state of Alabama not to mention that the same system produced a significant blizzard in the Texas and Oklahoma Panhandles. As far as this outbreak goes, I'm neutral since I believe its well made enough to stay, but I would not be surprised to see a merge. By the way, saying "if this had an article, than this one would too" is, in most discussion, not a counterargument that is taken seriously since its usually seen as a "tit for tat". ChessEric (talk · contribs) 18:17, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WP:OSE is what ChessEric was mentioning at the end about the “tit for tat” style argument not being good. Elijahandskip (talk) 18:20, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. ChessEric (talk · contribs) 19:08, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I understand OSE isn’t a good argument, I just used it to counteract the point that a dearth of fatalities means no article. What policies are relevant here is WP:GNG and WP:SPINOFF, and while the article might meet the former, it miserably fails the latter, justifying a merge.12.207.51.104 (talk) 00:27, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

how about merge some of the topics on the main page and keep the artical Lolkikmoddi-h3t3 :D (talk) 22:07, 29 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Like what? ChessEric (talk · contribs) 00:21, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thats not quite how it works. 12.207.51.104 (talk) 00:27, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]