Talk:TOCA (series)

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I edited some of TOCA Race Driver 2. It explains what date and what names the PSP version had.--Ideal4real 20:30, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I plan to seperate these toca games into seperate pages..especially toca 2 and toca world touring cars..unless anyone has any objections? -I can help with TOCA 2. Baseracer 02:17, 16 September 2006 (UTC) Fethroesforia 22:53, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

TOCA 4 Tenses

Just a note, I'm editing the tense mix-up under "TOCA 4"; "Codemasters 'was' developing another [ . . .] if this 'is' true, it should be released at somepoint in 2007". Unless someone who knows more about grammar than myself can point out otherwise. 82.31.14.35 11:25, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

TOCA Race Driver

This entire section is not an encyclopedia article, it is a game review that has been copied and pasted from another source. I believe this needs to be seen to. Dunnybrusher (talk) 07:04, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Grid part of the TOCA series? Not.

A couple editors seem set on making it look like the Grid games are part of the TOCA series. While both seem to have the occasional common point of some games in both being called Race Driver, there has never been a Grid game called TOCA, or a TOCA game called Grid, nor is the Race Driver phrase clearly identificative of either. Also, to my point, Moby Games lists both series as separate. (TOCA, Grid). Again, if you're going to say they are part of the same series, you'll have to provide a source for it. --uKER (talk) 23:00, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

And you seem set on making it look like they are not part of the TOCA series. Just because they don't have the word "TOCA" in the name, does not mean they are not of the same game lineup. I already gave a source for it, ([1]), which has a quote from Codemasters themselves (from Gavin Raeburn, the Executive Producer at Codemasters of that time, to be exact) originally from their press release of the time:

"Race Driver One will be a true evolution for the series, which first appeared as the TOCA (DTM/V8) Touring Car games (1997–2000) and became the TOCA (DTM/V8) Race Driver series (2002-2006)."

"As each generation of gaming formats shifts up a gear, so does this series and Race Driver One is set to evolve the previously headlined TOCA (DTM/V8) titles as much as DIRT has the Colin McRae series."

You can find those same quotes here ([2]) and here ([3]), as well as in Codemasters' press release. And to be clear, 'Race Driver One' was the working title for Race Driver: Grid.

So there, that is more than enough sources to show that it is part of that same game lineup. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 18:36, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Your argument of saying that Grid was meant as a TOCA game based on that press release makes no sense. They say Race Driver One was to be "the third generation in its acclaimed 8-million+ selling motorsport series" and "will arrive in 2008". By 2008 there were already six games in the TOCA series, as clearly shown here, so the series they're talking about is the Race Driver series, a spin-off of the TOCA series independent enough for Codemasters to number its games separately. They even go as far as to refer to the Race Driver series as "previously headlined TOCA (DTM/V8) titles", meaning they're no longer meant to be part of the TOCA series, becoming its own just like Dirt separated itself from the Colin McRae games. --uKER (talk) 20:10, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

'Third generation' means third console generation for the games. Not third game in the series. The first generation means the PS1 games, the second means the PS2/Xbox games, and the third means the PS3/360 games. And "previously headlined TOCA (DTM/V8) titles" doesn't mean it isn't the same series - it means that "TOCA" was the old name for the games within the series in question. Hence "previously headlined". Also, your argument for it being a different series based on that sentence makes no sense, as in that same sentence, you ignored the part where he says it is "set to evolve the previously headlined TOCA (DTM/V8) titles" - "evolve" means to grow and build upon, not to start a new series from scratch, which tells us it is part of the same series. Also, the fact that they dropped the "TOCA" name in the title does not mean it is not the same series - it means that they renamed the games in the series. You're trying your best to nitpick at every last little straw to try and prove your point, by trying to interpret your own meanings for things that aren't there, while purposefully overlooking the parts, that I've outlined, where they outright say it is the same series. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 11:25, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, let's agree to disagree on the content of the press release. Let's say it's a coincidence that it was the third Race Driver game. Going by your logic of "it's different and has a different name but it's the same series", you could argue that Injustice is part of the Mortal Kombat series, being a sequel to Mortal Kombat vs. DC Universe to which they decided to give an entirely different name while still being part of the Mortal Kombat series. Franchises spinning off of other ones happens, and Codemasters have shown they like to do it. Both TOCA and Grid began as Race Driver, just like Dirt began as Colin McRae Rally. But anyway, let's get this over with the easy way: can you provide any reliable source saying that the Grid games are part of the TOCA series? Here's the list of sources considered reliable by Wikipedia. --uKER (talk) 01:28, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Let's not, since nowhere does it say that it was the "third Race Driver game", but it does say it is part of the same series. That is not just my opinion, it is a fact, it says it right there in their own press release over and over again. Your arguments are based on your opinions on things that it does not actually say. Also, my logic is not "it's different and has a different name but it's the same series" - that is a strawman. What I am saying is that they renamed the games within the series, whatever that series on the whole may be called. You're effectively trying to argue about whether the series is named "TOCA" or not, rather than whether Grid fits into said series - but both of those are different arguments altogether. The fact of the matter is that the old TOCA Touring Cars games, the Race Driver games, and the Grid games, are all from one and the same series, as they've said themselves. As for your comparison to Injustice and Mortal Kombat, that is a false equivalence. Just because two other random games that you've picked, that are of a different series to each other, both have different names, does not mean it must be the case here. (And it isn't the case here, according to Codemasters themselves.) It is just your opinion that it can't be part the same series based on only the name and nothing more, as if there are no other factors that go into it. And by your logic, Race Driver 2006 is not part of the same series, since it does not have the word "TOCA" in the title - that whole argument you're making is grasping at straws, while overlooking any other factors or proof to the contrary. About providing any reliable source to back up my point - well I already did! I provided a GameZone article (GameZone is listed on Wikipedia as a reliable source), as well as the official press release, that both specifically say it is the same series, meaning that I already have settled this the easy way - but apparently that isn't good enough for you, since it is not what you want to hear. Just because a source does not say what you want it to, does not mean it is not reliable. But OK then: I'll give you another one. Here is one from GameSpot. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 12:44, 25 July 2020 (UTC)

That GameZone article is nothing more than a partial transcription of that overly vague press release, providing no additional clarification. Once more, the game series mentioned there could well be the Race Driver series. You still haven't published a single source that clearly and explicitly says "Hey, here's Grid, a new game in the TOCA series." It shouldn't be too hard, or is it? --uKER (talk) 03:10, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes I have. Not in those exact words, but indeed with that exact meaning. So you are lying since it didn't say what you wanted it to. And there's nothing vague about the press release. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 16:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

The press release is vague enough that I can argue that it's the Race Driver series they're talking about. I'm still waiting for your source explicitly saying Grid is part of the TOCA series. --uKER (talk) 19:50, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

It's not vague though. It is specifically about "Race Driver One", the working title for "Race Driver: GRID". And this GameSpot article I linked before specifically says it is as well. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 14:27, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Since there's been a request for additional stuff, I've done some hunting around for sources related to this issue. Note that I'm using actual developer comments in quotes or in interview answers rather than how a website defines a series in blurb.

• A 2008 original interview from the website TeamVVV: The interview answers from producer Clive Moody shed some light. In answer to the first question as to what GRID is, the answer is that it's a separate series to TOCA that inherits its style.
• This interview from Rock, Paper, Shotgun about Grid Autosport, the interviewees refer to Grid as its own entity.
• This blog post from Codemasters refers to Grid series using this term: "the next game in the GRID series and descendant of TOCA Touring Cars", with later words defining that descendent element as meaning going back to the "authentic" racing style of TOCA while still being a Grid game.
• This IGN interview refers to the Grid series as starting in 2008, rather than being a continuation of anything.

I hope this helps a little. --ProtoDrake (talk) 20:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Further sources. Scottish Sun interview with Grid reboot designer Mike Moreton, Red Bull interview with the studio as a whole about their history, and a piece from Daily Express about Codemasters's possible return to TOCA. All have statements relating to connections between TOCA and Grid from the devs themselves. --ProtoDrake (talk) 15:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

From the RedBull source: "Colin McRae and the TOCA games are very different to something like GRID 2. We’ve evolved with the times." It doesn't get any clearer than that. GRID 2 is not a TOCA game. --uKER (talk) 21:09, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Well no, saying in general that "X is different to Y" is not the same argument as saying "X is from a different series than Y", and is a much broader statement. You could equally say that "TOCA Race Driver 3 is very different to TOCA Touring Car Championship", or even, outside of this series, that "Grand Theft Auto V is very different from Grand Theft Auto 1" - but statements like that do not contradict them being from the same series. In fact, you could equally look at both ends of any series like that, and make the point that they are very different - that goes for any series, because of the gradual changes from one game in the series to the next adding up over time. Regarding the other two sources, they don't say anything about the games not being of the same series to each other - the Express article is referring to the games returning to hosting the real life BTCC (which has been missing from these games starting with TOCA Race Driver 2), and it even says "the forthcoming Grid release is the latest instalment of what was the original TOCA franchise", backing up my point. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 13:05, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

I think at this point, Grid and TOCA are basically considered as two separate franchises. I don't think press release from 2000s can really explain the situation we have here, nearly a decade later, when Codemasters basically dropped the TOCA name entirely. OceanHok (talk) 04:30, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, the Rock, Paper, Shotgun article does not mention the older TOCA games, and doesn't say anything about Grid being its own series from them. The Codemasters blogpost, saying that the game is a descendant of TOCA Touring Cars, suggests it is part of the same series/lineage of games more than otherwise. The IGN article says in the first paragraph that Grid traces its roots back to 1997's TOCA Touring Cars. Regarding the TeamVVV article - fair enough, Clive does seem to say it is a new thing. Although, his reason for that does seem to be the fact that they've broadened the range of motorsports rather than being "grounded in the touring car angle". The same was true for TOCA Race Driver 2 and 3 though, so he could be referring to the TOCA motorsport licence itself more than anything, especially when combined with the other times where the team have said it is a follow-up to their earlier TOCA games. Honestly, I think a lot of the confusion here comes from the fact that this series has been misleadingly named as the TOCA series by Wikipedia, implying that all of the games, including the Grid ones, have the real-life TOCA licence, when they don't; I think it would therefore be fair, and a good idea, to rename the page from "TOCA (series)" to "Race Driver (series)", in order to avoid confusion between these games in question, and the real-life motorsport's licence - especially in light of another developer getting the licence to make games for the real-life TOCA motorsport (i.e. the BTCC). -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 14:27, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, so now, while we're trying to discuss this here, you disregard the opinion of everyone that's been providing it and in an attempt to still have it your way you decide to move all of the related articles to make them to be about Race Driver series (moved 4 articles that I can tell already). That's not how Wikipedia works, you know? --uKER (talk) 15:22, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I mean, you were taking things off the page before discussing them, so you aren't any better by your own standards. And you're disregarding what I am saying in the same way. In other words, you have one standard for yourself and another for others - that's not how Wikipedia works, you know? -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 15:38, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

And by the way, I moved them to avoid the obvious confusion, not to "have it my way". However, in order to have it your way, you made a so-called 'request for comment' where all you're actually doing is asking others to back you up - you say over there on the WikiProject Video games page that "being one vs one it's getting me nowhere" - meaning you're asking for others to fight your corner, rather than for an honest outside opinion on the matter. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 15:56, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I think it's kind of rude to suggest that anyone who has joined this discussion as a result of the notice at WPVG has been brainwashed by uKER to join their side. People have looked at the sources (and ProtoDrake has even provided more sources) to decide for themselves. To me, it does seem like everyone from the devs to the commentators treat them as separate series. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:36, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, but that's not what I said. I said he posted there to ask for people to back him up, as evidenced by his wording there. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 18:43, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

He asked for "additional input" and others to "weigh in". Changing "getting me nowhere" to "getting us nowhere" does not materially change the statement, nor does the former imply that people who are weighing in must join their side. Please assume a little good faith. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:40, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I would love to assume good faith, but he did not with me when he said that I decided to move the pages from "TOCA (series)" to "Race Driver (series)" in an "attempt to still have it your way", and he has also been pretty rude to me. Assuming good faith is not a standard that only one side should be held to. I do think it is fair that both parties should be polite to each other. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 20:05, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Well you did unilaterally make a large change in the middle of a discussion on that very topic and were reverted for it. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:14, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

That does not mean it was done in bad faith. And this whole discussion was started by him making a large unilateral change to the article. But nonetheless, this will get us nowhere in the discussion. Let's just agree that both parties should stay polite. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 20:23, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes and you reverted them. As far as I can tell, the WP:BRD process is working as intended. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:29, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I know. My point was about assuming good faith. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 20:39, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

I was only coming to defend from the complaint that I removed that stuff from the page by citing WP:BRD but it seems like Axem Titanium already did it for me. Also, I don't get how you apparently know about WP:RFC, having referred to it by name, yet somehow reprimend me for doing it. --uKER (talk) 22:28, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

You keep disregarding this discussion and reverting the article to your liking. You're not doing your cause any good, you know? --uKER (talk) 12:56, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

No, I reverted it back to the version before your edits where you took out half of the article to your liking, and then I added some citations to it. You're clearly trying to bait me with this style of writing, you know? -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 14:03, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Baiting you into what? Praxidicae removed content that according to this discussion should go, and you restored it. Again, that's not how it works. It's not like you're going to get away with it by means of insistence. --uKER (talk) 14:53, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Nope, he was reverting my renaming of the page, and in an effort to undo the parts of the article where I changed the names to "Race Driver", he mistakenly reverted to your edit where you took half of the article away, which was the very thing that led to this discussion. We haven't reached any agreement in this discussion that the stuff you took out should go, and it doesn't become true because you said so. Again, I have linked sources where it explicitly says it is from the same series, and added those sources to the article, such as this GameSpot one, which literally says it is from the same series in the first line. You asked for a source that says so, you got it, and now you aren't happy since you came into this with no intention to be convinced, no matter the source. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 15:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Ah, the irony. The affirmation in that GameSpot article works as a double-edged sword for you. Sure, it does say Race Driver One is part of the TOCA series, but then it goes on to say it's the third game!!! Care to check how many TOCA games there were by 2008? Hint: hit that "Article" link at the top of left of this page and find out. Now how do you explain that? Could it be that the person who wrote that had no idea, just read that press release and misinterpreted the "third generation in Codemasters' racing series" thing? --uKER (talk) 22:18, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Except it doesn't say it is the third game anywhere, and you've just made that up. It says it is the third iteration in the series, as in third generation in the series - which as I pointed out before, refers to the PS3/360 generation. So nope. Oh, and it doesn't just mention the name "Race Driver One", neither - it explicitly states that they replaced the game's working title of "Race Driver One" with its finalised name of "Grid". (As if the title alone didn't hint at that enough - "Race Driver One on the GRID".) -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 11:12, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

I didn't really get what is this discussion is about. If Codemasters said that Grid is a "descendent" of TOCA then we use this wording. I think it refers to Grid being a spiritual successor more than it being a sequel. Anyway, Grid is distinct enough from TOCA at this point, just like you won't call Rabbids: Adventure Party a Rayman game. OceanHok (talk) 18:34, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

OK, so now you not only disregard this discussion and keep editing the article to your liking, but you also do so to make it say in the most explicit way possible that "Race Driver: Grid is the full and official title of the sequel to TOCA Race Driver 3", sourced to that infamous press release that fails to say anything conclusive, and needless to say, doesn't even mention TOCA Race Driver 3 in any way. And no, "third iteration in a game series" meaning "first game in the third generation of consoles the series has been in" is just you being incapable of thinking straight. --uKER (talk) 00:49, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Also, I'll cite this interview again, where Codemasters creative director James Nicholls explicitly says "Colin McRae and the TOCA games are very different to something like GRID 2. We’ve evolved with the times.", therefore GRID 2 is NOT A TOCA GAME. --uKER (talk) 00:58, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

"OK, so now you not only disregard this discussion and keep editing the article to your liking, but you also do so to make it say in the most explicit way possible that "Race Driver: Grid is the full and official title of the sequel to TOCA Race Driver 3"" - I am not the one that wrote that - That has been in the article for years. What I did with my last edit was added a citation. Please check the history of the page before throwing accusations. About the "third iteration" thing, "iteration" does not specifically mean "game". The way it is framed in that sentence implies that it is the third iteration of the series itself. In the Red Bull interview, he doesn't explicitly say it is of a different series in that interview - saying in general that "X is different to Y" is not the same argument as saying "X is from a different series than Y", and is a much broader statement. You could equally say that "TOCA Race Driver 3 is very different to TOCA Touring Car Championship", or even, outside of this series, that "Grand Theft Auto V is very different from Grand Theft Auto 1" - but statements like that do not contradict them being from the same series. In fact, you could equally look at both ends of any series like that, and make the point that they are very different - that goes for any series, because of the gradual changes from one game in the series to the next adding up over time. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 09:38, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

With Grid (series) already in place it is not necessary to keep all the Grid games in this page. OceanHok (talk) 04:47, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I created that one the first time I removed the Grid games from here. I intended to expand it, but got caught up in a certain editing dispute. --uKER (talk) 07:56, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I just edited the article again, removing non-TOCA games, this time adding a note in the lead mentioning how this series set the path for the Race Driver series, which in turn originated Grid. I also updated Template:Race_Driver_series to establish the link between TOCA and Grid as best as I could. Hope this makes everyone happy. --uKER (talk) 08:06, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, that is a very good, fair middle ground, I am very glad we could get to the bottom of this. Thank you. I've also helped to fix the Infobox on the Grid (series) page. -PhpBBthe2nd (talk) 09:42, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

NP. It's good to have finally sorted it out. Cheers. --uKER (talk) 18:28, 3 August 2020 (UTC)