Talk:Stronger (Kanye West song)

Possible Merge with Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger

It's basically a remake of the old song, shouldn't the two pages just be merged?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.12.185.94 (talk • contribs).

Not really. "Stronger" isn't a remake, but a distinct composition that contains a vocal sample from "Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger". Just64helpin 16:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

What an odd suggestion. Shouldn't we then merge Stronger and Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger into an article for Edwin Birdsong's Cola Bottle Baby? Sf2070 17:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

"Stronger" doesn't contain any samples from "Cola Bottle Baby", so I don't quite understand this analogy. Just64helpin 18:01, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

"Stronger" samples Daft Punk which in turn samples "Cola Bottle Baby". 74.107.53.64 17:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

"Cola Bottle Baby" has nothing to do with "Stronger", which samples only an accapella vocal from Daft Punk. Just64helpin 17:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

No analogy needed, "Stronger" is its own song, not a remake. It's called sampling/interpolation for a reason my friends. --Ayoleftyz 03:49, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Block

Someone needs to block this page from newly registered users and unregistered users, because people are vandalizing this page a LOT with a lot of bullcrap. For example, peopel are saying that he stole this song when really Draft Punk are given credit everywhere except for on the YouTube videos uploaded by users (where these people get their "information" from). Armyrifle 21:41, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

"Mr." West?

I came here just to check if he really is calling himself "Mr. West" now. Now that I know this, does anybody know why? His arrogance - and I did not think it possible - has reached new levels of idiocy. 75.64.2.15 09:28, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

It's a joke dumbass. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.255.231.70 (talk) 03:39, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

• I don't think it is: he uses 俺 (ore) in the video (albeit incorrectly, with katakana, which seems to be his mistake-filled motif throughout the video), which implies arrogance or rudeness. At least he wasn't calling himself Kanye-sama.--Piroteknix 03:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
• Does it matter what he calls himself? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.4.53.142 (talk • contribs)

Nietzsche?

Worth mentioning that the song's chorus is based around the famous Nietzsche aphorism? --Delirium

Do you have a source for that? Just64helpin 11:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Well if you want the Nietzsche quote, Twilight of the Idols II, 8. If you want a mention of it w.r.t. Kanye specifically: "Nat's entertainment but Bratz definitely ain't". The Visitor (UK). August 17, 2007. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) --Delirium 18:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Akira

The music video has some references to akira...I think those should be mentioned...more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.111.136.209 (talk) 02:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Radio Edit

Should the radio edit be posted with the album version? Merath 21:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Irony

I don't know whether the line "does anybody make real shit anymore?" is actually relevant enough to mention, because of irony - the song samples another song, quite heavily. 130.127.78.139 23:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Mistake

In the song there is a shot of the Japanese word Ganbare, but the katakana actually reads Gasobare. This should be noted in the article as this is a big mistake. 122.187.67.149 20:11, 04 January 2008 (UTC)

...not to mention "Sutosoga" instead of "Sutonga" which I guess is what they were going for to represent the word "Stronger" (me, I'd do "sutoronga-" similar to how strawberry is rendered in Japanese -- but I'm only a student guessing at it...). Both of these mistakes were the same, they mixed up ソ and ン...easy to do... and funny in a video :D. Definitely worth mentioning in the article if anyone can figure out a good way to word it. JorenCombs (talk) 17:50, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh hey, here's an external blog link about the mistakes: Kanye Fails at Japanese JorenCombs (talk) 17:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Producer ?

I know that Daft Punk's "Harder Better Faster Stronger" vocals are in this song. But did the duo Daft Punk help write the lyrics of "Stronger" or can Daft Punk also be counted as co-songwriter if they are just sampled ? I am confused. Sorry for my bad English. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nerd72 (talk • contribs) 20:04, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm almost 10 years late but yes, in most cases, the sampled artist does receive songwriting credits. PlayPus2 (talk) 03:26, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Stronger

this is what wikipedia says is the start of the song "stronger" but

This song appears in the 2003 "Interstella 5555" movie at about 45:00 I have not seen any information about this song coming from a movie or someone else. The credits of the film say that the music comes from.

Music 2001 : Daft Life Ltd under exclusive license to VIRGIN RECORDS Ltd.

A portion of "Stronger" was first released in May 2007 on West's Can't Tell Me Nothing mixtape.[3] Shortly afterwards, on May 31, 2007, Brendon Joshua played the full-length song on his podcast. On June 27, 2007, "Stronger" was put onto the BBC Radio 1 Up-Front playlist and was later upgraded to the A-List a month prior to its release. The single's cover art was released on West's website on June 28, 2007. It was designed by Japanese artist Takashi Murakami, who West collaborated with to produce the artwork for Graduation.[4] The cover features a cartoon version of West's mascot "Dropout Bear" wearing sunglasses similar to the those West wears in the music video, as well as the small, robotic heads of Thomas Bangalter and Guy-Manuel de Homem-Christo of Daft Punk. West performed a partial version of "Stronger" live at the Concert for Diana held at Wembley Stadium on July 1, 2007 to a crowd of 63,000 people. An estimated 500 million people watched the event in over 140 countries worldwide.[5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.161.66.85 (talk) 23:41, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Quote from 2007 Zane Lowe interview - verification needed

In trying to verify the claim "On July 3, 2007, West told Zane Lowe on BBC Radio 1 that although he believes "Stronger" is a great song, it does not compare to the sampled original" I have been unable to find any primary or secondary sources to back it up. Rather than wholly removing it I thought it best to present what I have and flag it as needing verification.

I have no reason to doubt that Kanye appeared on the stated program on the given date, as suggested by the current article. Reference to this interview first appeared within two days of the interview[1], added by a very trustworthy and still-active Wikipedian. The BBC radio archive does indicate that West was interviewed and "Stronger" was played, but does not elaborate or offer a transcript or recording.

Some older versions of the article place 'a great song' in quotes, but West's full statement has never been offered in the article. More concerning, I cannot find any further information about this interview or any direct quotes from West on his opinion comparing "Stronger" and "Harder Better Faster Stronger". Lowe's later interviews with West - in 2013, 2015, and 2019 - are far more well-documented and tend to muddy the search results. In addition, this Wikipedia article has been quoted and cited widely throughout the internet (typically with identical phrasing), further frustrating my search for a primary source.

If I may editorialize a bit, over the last decade-plus I've seen "Stronger" serve as the target of ire from misguided Daft Punk fans who call it 'stealing from' or 'ripping off' HBFS (just look at previous posts on this very talk page!). Including this quote seems to be a bit of a mea culpa to ease tensions - 'see, even Kanye thinks the Daft Punk song is better!' - hence why I'm loath to simply delete it even if it is unverified. With DP's recent breakup I suspect more eyes than usual may be on "Stronger", as well. Mashed Potate Jones (talk) 22:50, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm assuming the "still-active Wikipedian" is in reference to me. I should clarify that the contribution was not written by me, but was a botched cut-and-paste on my part of text contributed in the edit immediately prior, by an editor who ceased being active in 2007 according to their contributions history. jhsounds (talk) 23:21, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh, you're correct on both counts! Looks like I had tunnel vision on the "History" subsection and missed its presence in the header. That editor (albeit briefly) was active in Kanye pages but obviously that's not enough for verification of the quote. Mashed Potate Jones (talk) 20:05, 2 March 2021 (UTC)

References

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This review is transcluded from Talk:Stronger (Kanye West song)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Kyle Peake (talk · contribs) 14:00, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Jolielover (talk · contribs) 00:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Right, ready to review this one! I'll spend the next day reading and making notes for this nom :) it's about time! jolielover♥talk 00:00, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Infobox and lead

• Add the American English template
• Infobox looks great!
• Lead is too long, per MOS:LEADLENGTH, lead is over 600 words, far above the recommended maximum of 400. I would cut out & shorten:
  • "The song's production process was arduous, with various engineers and 75 different mixes, even having the drum programming redone with Timbaland after its release." - cut out entirely, is elaborated on in the "Writing and recording" section
  • Cut out "A maximalist hip hop song also based in electronica with varied elements of electronic music, it relies on a slowed vocal sample of Daft Punk's Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger" due to redundancy and reptition.
  • "The song received generally positive reviews from music critics, who mostly highlighted the sample of "Harder, Better, Faster, Stronger" → "The song received generally positive reviews from music critics, who praised the sample" (removing repetition)
  • "Focus was often placed on West's innovation through the sample and combination of genres, while critical assessments of his rapping were somewhat mixed." → "Focus was placed on West's innovation through the combination of electronica and hip hop, while critical assessments of his rapping were somewhat mixed."
  • Trim and condense information on the music video - I would reword "An accompanying music video was largely shot guerrilla-style in Tokyo and Los Angeles, going through reiterations from West's attention to detail. The video juxtaposes shots across Tokyo with scenes of him either rapping or being operated on in a laboratory and it was inspired by the Japanese anime film, Akira (1988). The visual was well received by most critics for the special effects, and it won Best Hip-Hop Video at the 2007 BET Hip Hop Awards." (76 words) to "The music video, inspired by anime film Akira (1988), juxtaposed shots of Tokyo with West rapping, and won Best Hip-Hop Video at the 2007 BET Hip Hop Awards." (28 words)
  • Similarly, shorten "West performed "Stronger" live throughout 2007 and 2008, including on his Glow in the Dark Tour and a rendition with Daft Punk at the Grammys. He later delivered performances at numerous festivals from Wireless in 2009, up to Glastonbury in 2015." to "West performed the song live on his Glow in the Dark Tour, with Daft Punk at the Grammys, and at several festivals, including Wireless and Glastonbury."
  • Cut out "The song has been used for numerous songs, sports games, and films, such as The Hangover Part II (2011). It was covered by Thirty Seconds to Mars in 2007, six years before Allison Williams performed the song in the series Girls."
• I think that's about it for the changes I would make for the lead; the rest of the content seems necessary to give the reader an adequate summary of the song's history.

Background and development

• The prose is generally clear and follows a logical flow of pattern.
• I like the image! Makes the article look appealing while providing background to the song and Daft Punk in hip-hop sampling.
• For the citation for the artwork, I'd suggest changing the name of the website from "Kanye West Blog" to something else; blog implies a fan site, while the website was his official site. Maybe change it to 'kanyewest.com'

Writing and recording

• This sentence: "West mentioned he worked his recent mistakes into the songwriting for the song, having swum "in wack juice" that he needed to escape, such as blogs making fun of him." sounds far too informal and may not be understandable. I'd change to "West reflected on his past mistakes, admitting he had become caught up in criticism and negativity; he channeled his frustration into the song's first verse to express his frustration."
• Cut "Marroquin and West got past the challenge of mixing the song through strong communication" out, does not seem necessary. Section is great otherwise!

Reception

• Some critics were less enthusiastic towards "Stronger". → The song also received mixed reviews from some critics. (more formal, neutral)
• In a mixed review for Cokemachineglow → In a review for Cokemachineglow (avoiding redundancy)

Music video

• Williams explained to SOHH that the decision to work with West again as a friend of his was natural after hearing "Stronger" and stated he thought he "could kind of dive in with him on it", feeling it made sense completely with how the song connected with him. → Williams explained to SOHH that after hearing 'Stronger,' working with West again felt natural, as he thought he could easily collaborate with him. (clarity)
• Despite West's attention to detail, he felt at ease without a strict setup when working with Williams and the collaborators mostly came up with the concept together. → West felt comfortable working without a strict setup, allowing him and Williams to collaborate on the concept freely. (clarity)
• West was not satisfied when going over the footage back in the United States and abandoned the storyline in favor of "the hottest shots possible", relocating to NYC for footage at the Jacob K. Javits Convention Center after struggling to find improvements following 10 weeks of filming that almost led to a "brain aneurysm". → After reviewing the footage in the U.S., West abandoned the initial storyline in favor of 'the hottest shots possible.' He moved filming to NYC, specifically at the Jacob K. Javits Convention Center, after struggling for 10 weeks to improve the footage. (brain aneurysm comment is too hyperbolic)
• ...it was boring due to the "pretty-lady-in-da-club" throughout. → it was boring due to the repetition of scenes throughout. (clarity)

Final comments

For the sections I haven't mentioned, I wasn't able to find any issues with them. Overall, great job! I particularly liked the images accompanying most sections, really great use of them. I hope these issues can be rectified soon; they are mostly just rewordings and cutting off excessively elaborate information. I can't tick the "focus" part yet because of this, however this article is really close to GA status with a slight changes. Great work, @Kyle Peake:!

@Jolielover: Thank you so much for this review and your very detailed notes these are as constructive as one can get, I highly appreciate you having taking such a long article on after I've waited too long and can be assured a lot of effort must have gone into looking through all of this one! I have implemented all of your improvements to the best of my knowledge, with the exception of the cropping out of the usage and cover versions sentences in the lead. My reasoning is these provide key context into the song's usage which is covered extensively in the body, although if the lead is still too long should I try to crop these down or would it be better if we looked harder at the rest to see if any sentences could be re-worded somewhat please? --K. Peake 13:03, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

No problem! I'm fine with your reasoning for keeping that sentence for context, but I'd change "The song has been used for numerous songs, sports games, and films," to "The song has been featured in several pieces of media, such as..." for clarity, and cut out "while it has appeared on various lists of the best workout songs." Though the lead is a bit long, ultimately there is no strict limit on the word count as long as everything is relevant and not needlessly elaborate, which I believe this article covers. Just work on these minor changes and the article should be good to go! jolielover♥talk 13:20, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

@Jolielover: Thanks for being so good to work with especially on these final comments, I have now implemented this change please let me know if the article is ready to go! --K. Peake 14:33, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

@Kyle Peake: No problem! Seeing as I can't find any other issues, the article is good to go! :) Congrats! jolielover♥talk 15:01, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Spot-check

@Jolielover: you need to add a spot-check- basically list which 5-10%+ of the references you checked to see if the ref verified the text. Also, wow, you read and reviewed all of the article, all 9000 words, this fast? DoctorWhoFan91 (talk) 17:10, 1 January 2025 (UTC)

Apologies, here it is:

• https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2007/aug/01/art.popandrock, verifies that the artwork was done by Japanese artist Murakami
• https://www.stereogum.com/2218062/the-number-ones-kanye-wests-stronger/columns/the-number-ones/, verifies Birdsong's writing credit
• https://web.archive.org/web/20070812005253/https://mtv.com/news/articles/1562919/20070620/west_kanye.jhtml, verifies much of the background and synopsis of the music video
• https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN06357865/, verifies the song being the highest debut of the week
• https://www.billboard.com/music/music-news/kanye-west-cites-nietzsche-while-fighting-claim-of-stealing-464988/, verifies the lawsuit section
• https://web.archive.org/web/20070915133440/http://www.rollingstone.com/reviews/album/16233118/review/16256602/graduation, verifies the track being considered disco (the genre)
• https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/11/AR2008051102001.html, verifies the genres, daft punk sample & the meaning of the song (west saying he is the greatest)
• https://themusic.com.au/news/daft-punk-write-another-song-for-kanye-west/wqvV1NfW2dg/07-06-13, verifies another daft punk & kanye collab through black skinhead
• https://web.archive.org/web/20181208173908/http://www.mtv.com/news/1575778/the-best-songs-of-2007-in-bigger-than-the-sound/, verifies statement saying MTV named it the 6th best song of the year
• https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/west-has-hot-100-chart-150639/, verifies song going number 1 and dethroning soulja boy's song
• https://web.archive.org/web/20240304160918/https://www.mtv.com/news/0aqhpt/kanye-west-loses-it-again-says-hell-never-return-to-mtv-report, verifies west being upset about britney opening an MTV show
• https://web.archive.org/web/20100103101210/http://www.nme.com/news/daft-punk/34231, verifies kanye performing with daft punk at the grammys
• https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/kanye-west-parody-video-starring-john-tory-withheld-over-copyright-1.3157389, verifies toronto mayor making a parody of the music video
• https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-lists/readers-poll-the-ten-best-kanye-west-songs-23790/8-stronger-229951/, verifies that the song is considered one of his most radio-friendly songs

Hope this works!

And yes, I did :) holidays with nothing much to do. Typically I make 100-200 edits per day on Wikipedia but as you can see from my contribs today I don't have many since I spent the day reviewing the article. jolielover♥talk 17:43, 1 January 2025 (UTC)