Talk:Simon Ekpa/Archive 3

This is an archive of past discussions about Simon Ekpa. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Signature

I added a signature to the article page Infobox per talk with Gråbergs Gråa Sång User_talk:Gråbergs Gråa Sång#Signature

Editors may wish to modify things. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 23:17, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

@Fugabus, how did you get the information? Best, Reading Beans 23:29, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I am asking because the signature there does not seem to be gotten from those images. You may wish to disagree. Best, Reading Beans 23:33, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Since the source you give [1] is "own work" (compare [2]), that means you are Simon Ekpa. If that's a mistake, you should correct it. Per Commons philosophy, taking a picture of a picture/document does not make the new picture "own work." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:27, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

For the interested, the WP-essay on including signatures says "Generally, there is no consensus on the reproduction of signatures of living persons in Wikipedia. If inclusion is challenged discussion on the relevant article talkpage to decide the value of reproducing a signature would be appropriate."

If the upload is correctly done (which may not currently be the case per "own work") I'm not challenging it, to me it's "meh". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:09, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Off-topic, but last year an American politician got really upset finding her signature on WP:[3]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:17, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

@Yann, can you help us out? Is [4] Commons-good as is? If not, what is needed? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I fixed the author. The copyright of signatures depends very much of the country. Some countries do give a copyright to signatures, some don't. Yann (talk) 10:10, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that's resolved now by other editors. I will do little touch there but not now. Thanks «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 19:15, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

Ekpa and Ijaw Youth Council

Is it worth mentioning? [5][6] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:51, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

AU Court recognition

AU in a letter letter dated 23 May 2023 acknowledged BRGIE and Simon Ekpa as it's Prime Minister and head and President Bola Tinubu as the head of the federal Republic of Nigeria as they dragged the Nigerian government to African Court on Human and Peoples rights in Banjul Gambia. (Biafra VS Nigeria)

Now this is interesting and worthy of debate. How do we note this in the LEAD of the article?

Simon is reported to be the leader of "Biafra Liberation Army" in a report I found here. That is also interesting to note in the Lead.

Per comment of @Gråbergs Gråa Sång: on Talk:Simon_Ekpa#Calling Ekpa Prime Minister in wiki-voice where he pointed out AU recognition and now this is coming so soon. I will reform the Lead but I seek opinions from interested editors first. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The term "prime minister" does not appear in the article you linked. Please provide a reliable third-party (non-primary) source your claim. JFHJr (㊟) 18:24, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Your source says "Biafra Republic Government In Exile, BRGIE, has petitioned the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights, an organ of the African Union in Banjul, Gambia". Nothing about a letter from AU. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

It also says The Commission acknowledged the petition in a letter dated May 23, 2024, addressed to BRGIE by the African Commission on Human and Peoples’ Rights (the ACHPR) in Banjul, Gambia. But it does not state how the letter addressed or referred to the org's leader or in what context. Perhaps Fugabus received the letter, but we did not. In any event, this claim fails WP:V facially and WP:NOR extrinsically. JFHJr (㊟) 18:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

So that is from an organ of the African Union in Banjul, Gambia, not the AU itself. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The AU Court is indeed in Banjul. What comes from the AU Court comes from the AU. But no reliable source characterized this as an acknowledgement of a government or a prime minister. It's just a court filing response. "We got your filing. Regards, Primary Source." JFHJr (㊟) 18:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I must agree with you. The AU needs to clarify things here. This is what "acknowledgement" is. Does it translate to recognition? «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:40, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Surely you mean acknowledging a petition? Not acknowledging an unregistered organization in Finland as a government, right? If you refer to the second thing, you've misread the text of the link you provided. The petition alone was acknowledged. Cheers. JFHJr (㊟) 18:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Can we have at least have that in body? AU Court recognized or otherwise acknowledged them but not AU itself. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The AU Court acknowledged the filing. That's all. What you're claiming is simply untrue. JFHJr (㊟) 18:47, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

And again, @JFHJr, the BRGIE is not only registered in Finland. Its worldwide. Search them in the United States of America. They only have liason office in Finland. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 18:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The org sent a letter. It happens, doesn't make it worth mentioning in the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I migrated the overly-grand stand-alone section into the article prose. But if anyone removes it per WP:WEIGHT, I would not oppose it because it's a letter from a primary source in routine response to a court filing. Cheers! JFHJr (㊟) 21:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

It's not a subsection either. You've got a WP:POV problem and you're not dropping the stick. JFHJr (㊟) 21:51, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that isn't an issue. It doesn't suppose to be a section or subsection either per Wikipedia:Weight. I moved it to a separate paragraph and I hope that helps. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 22:17, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

You have a tendency to put Ekpa's/BRGIE's words in wiki-voice, don't do that. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, is there any useful info on this referendum BRGIE talks about? Beyond their own statements, I mean. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

This may be helpful. (southern Examiner) It was during the first phase though of the referendum. I personally haven't found any other in depth coverage yet.

Cheers. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 14:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

That's pretty much all "they say..." but something for the curious at least. So it's important people sit at home for three days to send in their photos. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Some new coverage

I just found this [7] which was quite interesting, it's about the May sit-at-home. I also found this [8] which fails for WP-purposes per "DN News Desk is the editorial wing of Digital Nod, an award-winning digital PR & marketing agency." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:49, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

This [9] may or may not have some use, I'm unfamiliar with factcheckhub.com. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:01, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

You may also find this interesting here I guess all these coverage are coming late. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 14:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

This may be helpful. (southern Examiner) It was during the first phase though of the referendum. I personally haven't found any other in depth coverage yet.

Cheers. «fjuːgəbʌs» (talk) 14:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Some of this YouTube stuff [10] may be potentially useful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:41, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

It's useful as an external link. I hope this doesn't tempt anyone to use any YouTube as a BLP reference. Otherwise, good find! JFHJr (㊟) 21:12, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with using YouTube per se, it's like the rest of the internet that way, WP:RSPYT etc. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:20, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The recent sit-at-home

We're going a bit WP:RECENTISM atm, but this happens. Hopefully things will improve with time, as sources get some perspective. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

BLA emblem

Is there any usable source that can confirm this is the BLA emblem? I think the actual Biafra military used that or something like that, and of course it's possible Ekpa thought it looked nice. If no decent source has noticed this is the BLA emblem, there is no reason WP should. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Yep [11], seems like a Military ranks of Biafra rip-off/whatever. So, decent source needed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:07, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

New WP:EDITWAR

Myself and War Term has started an edit war on this bit in the WP:LEAD: [12]. Comments, editors? My view is that "founded in" is more informative than "since". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:57, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

It predates 2023 according to sources. It suggest it existed prior to 2023. The first reportage was 2022.

Sahara Reporters carried it. 2022 and again 2022 (Chat With Term)talk 19:20, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Very good. So he announced it in 2022, and said "Biafra Republic Government In-Exile is registered, approved and legal. Agent of Nigeria, take note!" + announced himself PM of it the next year. I self-reverted. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:05, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

That's fine. What about this?

Feel free to revert (Chat With Term)talk 20:10, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

The infobox is for simple, undisputed info. Per discussions on this talkpage, calling Ekpa PM is not that, so we leave it out of the infobox. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:12, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes. That's right. It's too early. Till we have his successor in the future. (Chat With Term)talk 20:14, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Bola Tinubu or the UN calling him PM of Biafra will probably be quite satisfactory. As of now, sources are kinda mixed. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:17, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. (Chat With Term)talk 20:25, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

I looked at those sources again, since I intended to use them. I see now that they say BGIE, not BRGIE, so "It suggest it existed prior to 2023" doesn't really work for WP-purposes. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:28, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Typo? Wår (talk) 17:33, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

My guess: he was still shaping things in his mind. But possibly, the BGIE is still out there somewhere (splitters!) Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Maybe, the linked text directs to another unrelated stuff. Mistake or intentional? Wår (talk) 19:05, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Intentional. It was an attempt at humor based on separatist orgs fighting between themselves. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:13, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

I think he broke away from them. See the BGIE website. They are now defunct anyways. Wår (talk) 19:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

They also had their PM according to the information obtained there. Was it Ekpa? Wår (talk) 19:19, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

IMO, he entered into alliance with them in 2022 and in 2023, he broke out to BRGIE. The BGIE is not covered in sources. I find it difficult to see. Wår (talk) 19:32, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

There is (or was) also a Biafra Shadow Government (BSG). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:47, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

These are not notable except the BRGIE. I should have seen BSG on sources but I still struggles. I don't know they existed anyways. Nevertheless, they may also be related to the BRGIE just like the BGIE. Too many factions. Wår (talk) 19:53, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

They exist/existed:[13] Some media seems to be confused on BGIE/BRGIE too:[14]. Maybe it's on purpose (Ekpa's). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:59, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

My God! Now this is more complicated than ever. From my own view, he started with the name, BGIE but at the long run in 2023,it was transformed into the BRGIE. The BSG isn't connected but BGIE? Well, I think they are related. There were no reports he later broke out of the BGIE, so we assume that the BGIE and BRGIE are same and Ekpa joined them in 2022 and became it's leader in 2023. Wår (talk) 20:08, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Per sources, the best I can make out is that Ekpa made part of IPOB into Autopilot, then named that BGIE, possible then noticed there already was one, then made that BRGIE. But that's a guess, nothing that will go into the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Biafra Government in Exile mention from 2016: [15] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

That's it. My assertions may be right. The BGIE existed since 2016. It got defunct in 2018 according to their website (assumptions). Ekpa tried to revived them in 2022 by entering into the reported alliance. Probably, he failed and in 2023, he transformed them to BRGIE and ended the IPOB stuff he was into. Wår (talk) 20:29, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

A reliable source stating such a continuity is required to apply to this article. It is original research and synthesis unless continuity is reliably and actually stated. It's quite conceivable one group was inactive when another took the same name. I'll note no mention of Ekpa himself in these pre-2023 digs. And if someone else founded the Ekpa org, it doesn't belong as WP:WEIGHTily in detail in this BLP. JFHJr (㊟) 02:25, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps Yle will do it for us at some point. Or BBC, easier to read. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:07, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Ekpa leads Armed revolt

"Ekpa is known for leading an armed revolt against the Nigerian state" was added on the lede article.

Per sources, from Yle, Helsinki times and Premium times.

IMO, I thought that is worth mentioning on the Lead per body of Simon_Ekpa#Activism and separatism. I mean it's Wikipedia:Notability can't be ignored per Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: @JFHJr:. Objections? Wår (talk) 06:21, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes: your sources:

"The Biafra agitator, who is based in Finland, has been accused of fuelling insecurity in south-east Nigeria."[16]
"Ekpa's exact role in the separatist group was unclear, but he has called on millions of people in southeastern Nigeria to participate in anti-government protests during the past 18 months." "Armed revolt" is there, but it's WP:HEADLINES and per text "Nigeria says", the paper makes that clear. Not fit for Wiki-voice and WP:SUSPECT needs to be considered. [17]

You are greatly exaggerating your sources, I tweaked, may still not be ok per WP:LEAD. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:06, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, you should look into how to use WP:NAMEDREF. Once in place, they are easy to re-use with both source editor and visual editor, and it reduces clutter in the References section. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:12, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

The headline of the Premium Times says "Nigerian military chief accuses Finnish govt, EU of shielding Simon Ekpa" and not that he accuses him of leading an armed revolt. Ekpa is not being accused per your tweak. Ekpa agrees he is leading the armed revolt per Kuvalehti report when he said "After the creation of the defensive forces, government forces no longer encroach on our area, because we have manpower all over, that protect"

He has in different sources said that. Though, the fact that he's being accused by Nigeria remains. See Daily post Wår (talk) 09:12, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:SUSPECT, I consider the removal of the entire sentence if that's the case.

I found an article that says "The Nigerian government accuses Simon Ekpa of using social media to instigate violence in the South-east." here. Wår (talk) 09:31, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

What Ekpa says is what Ekpa says, nothing more for WP-purposes. WP:HEADLINES are not good sources. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:26, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:SUSPECT. I have removed the entire sentence. Let's wait till he's convicted Wår (talk) 19:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

That's fine, but WP:SUSPECT doesn't forbid mentioning accusations, just that the sources needs to be good and correctly used, and that it's about a "public figure" (like Ekpa). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 19:35, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

On mentioning the Abia-killings

@JFHJr I get the impression that from the Nigerian POV [18][19][20], there's no real difference between Ekpa and (the rest of) IPOB. Still, clearer sources would be better. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:21, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

They broke away but it seems the Nigerian media continues to confuse them with the BRGIE. Same with BLA and ESN. This is from my own observations. Wår (talk) 01:28, 29 June 2024 (UTC)