Talk:Siena College/Archive 1

Archive 1

Old discussions

I question the NPOV status of the Siena College article. The qualification for software developer Michael Hoffman (in Notable Alumni) as "all around good guy" not only seems to be a betrayal of Wikipedia's NPOV status, but is subject to serious debate by other alumni.

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I have met Michael Hoffman and he is one of the finest software engineers in the business. Not only is he is light years ahead of the industry he is also a super terrific guy.

Even if he is an "all around good guy", this is not what should go in an encyclopedia. Limit the bio to his occupation and concrete verifiable accomplishments.

Also, the list should be alphabetized.

Well, I dont care if he is a super terrific guy or not (and can you sign your name to that statement, "whoever" wrote it?), never met him, but even if I do and think he is, WHO ELSE CARES?! This is an encyclopedia and it doesnt deserve to be there, about ANYONE. Also- I'm against alphabetizing lists of famous people because it can put local celeberities at the top and very world-wide well knowns burried at the bottom or inbetween unnoticed. The ranking of who's better than who is subjective, but together we can figure something out, its wikipedia.

On another note- Siena's mailing address is Loudonville, but it is actually in Newtonville!!!!!! There is no question or "but" about it, it is in the very heart of NewtonvilleCamelbinky 19:44, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I may haved jumped the gun and alphabetized the list. This gives a good place to start if the ordering gets reshuffled. If it's undesirable, then the change can be whatever. Siena doesn't have that many world-known celebrities, most are local-known. Thatsnotpossible 04:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Conflict of interest and cleanup

A PR rep for the College has been editing this article, and it's gotten appallingly spammy. I've started cleanup work, but will need help. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Orangemike This is the PR office for Siena College and we have not been editing this page, although someone with a Siena IP may be editing. We would like to help clean up this page to be fact-only. Please contact us at <redacted> —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sienacollegecommunications (talk • contribs) 16:56, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Somebody using the username User:Siena4, now blocked, claimed to be an official rep for Siena, and to have the right to waive copyright for Siena photos. --Orange Mike | Talk 17:26, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

undeleted

The page was apparently speedy deleted on the basis of being a copyvio from the college catalog. While parts of it are no doubt copied of closely adapted from various places on the college website and other publications, it seems that very little is actually from the catalog. It therefore does not meet the requirements for speedy deletion, and I have restored it, and am checking the various section; I intend to stubbify those which seem to be copies from elsewhere.

Some of the material removed in the immediately preceded edits seems correct & appropriate, & has been restored. I've made a first pass to remove the most obvious of the promotional material, but am deferring a further edit because many of the worst sections are probably copyvio and can be removed entirely. If it should happen that we get a license from them, some can be easily restored --and then given the drastic editing they need.

I urge the PR department to get a proper account, and comment here. For information about proper licensing, and general guidelines for dealing with conflict of interest, they should see our Business FAQ (which also applies to non-profit organisations and colleges). I would urge them not to actually edit the material at this point, but place material on the talk page here. The previous admin, OrangeMike, and I, will be glad to help it get done right. DGG (talk) 02:18, 23 January 2009 (UTC) DGG (talk) 02:18, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

It should be clarified that the PR department cannot have an account here. Individual human beings who happen to work for the PR department could get accounts here, as long as they agreed to follow our rules. --Orange Mike | Talk 04:07, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

External Sources for Siena Information

I found some site that provide information about Siena. I want to post them first and get approval before I write anything. I'm new to wikipedia editing, so I'm sorry if this isn't where I'm supposed to post this.

http://armyrotc.com/edu/siena/index.htm Proof Siena has the Mohawk Battalion from the Army's ROTC program http://www.catholiccollegesonline.org/cgi-bin/MemberDB2?MSQL_VIEW=/search/detail/view.txt&cid=hvwg Shows the majors of Siena and some more info http://www.fastweb.com/fastweb/colleges/view_siena_college_8635 A lot of information about the school. One thing that is different, though, is the Pepsi Arena in Albany is now called the Times Union Center. http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/college/items/2816 This site has general information about the college. http://www.petersons.com/ugchannel/code/IDD.asp?reprjid=12&inunid=8635&typeVC=instvc&sponsor=1 Information about Siena

I'll keep trying to find more sources. I hope we can give Siena College a proper article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sabres7414 (talk • contribs) 22:19, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

A lot of these are college guides for prospective students. That's nice, but trivial. What we need is evidence of notability in the general world: how has this school affected humankind or been affected by it? What do you find by searching GoogleNews, GoogleScholar, GoogleBooks? (I'd add that the ROTC chapter is not exactly a substantive element of encyclopedic information about Siena.) --Orange Mike | Talk 01:24, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Mike, I think you worded it just a little different than I would. All colleges are accepted as notable. There is no need to show that. What is needed is good sources of information about important aspects of the college, certainly including its interaction with the outside world, such as alumni who already have Wikipedia articles. Peterson's can be used as a source for rankings, which are, in moderation, considered acceptable content, but otherwise it's based on the information the college sends it. The website is an acceptable source for statistics and the like, as long as you completely rewrite any material you get from there. That they have a ROTC Battalion is suitable content, but unless it has won some really important awards, its just one line in a list of activities. ditto about sports. DGG (talk) 01:50, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I concur with every syllable of advice my distinguished colleague has just typed. --Orange Mike | Talk 03:04, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Alright, so this time I've looked into sources for the Siena Men's Basketball team. This team is really the basketball team of Albany (UAlbany is big, too). They play in the Times Union Center in Albany and bring in many fans, most of whom are not enrolled students. Last year, the team won the MAAC tournament and made it to the 2nd round in the NCAA Division I bracket. They were one of the four upsets in the first-round of the tournament. This year, they're doing very well, especially in the MAAC conference. Also, every year there is a game between University at Albany and Siena at the Times Union Center called the Albany Cup. This game is very large. The whole lower deck of the arena sells out and the top gets rather full as well. So, here are some links to sites I've found concerning the team: Times Union's Siena Basketball page http://timesunion.com/sports/siena/ Times Union: Albany Cup article from the 2008/2009 game http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=747653 ESPN News feed on the latest Siena Men's Basketball articles http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/local/team?id=2561 Yahoo Siena Men's Basketball page http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/teams/sas CBS Siena Men's Basketball page http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/teams/page/SIE NCAA article about attendance at Siena games (this has about the amount of people that attend the Albany Cup, 13,262 seats sold) http://www.ncaa.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/062708aaa.html USA Today article on the Tampa upset games that the Siena Saints were a part of, they dub the city Upset City http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/mensbasketball/2008-03-22-1790912279_x.htm

The Times Union is a newspaper which is based and distributed in Albany and the Capital Region of NY state. I also found the Official Siena Saints site, which is not part of siena.edu. I think it's independent of the college itself, but I'm not sure of that at all. http://sienasaints.cstv.com/ The Siena ROTC did place 2nd in a Rangers Challenge Competition at Fort Devens in Massachusetts sometime around October 2008, although this is interesting, it's probably not enough for a segment, the program also has students from other colleges and universities around Albany http://sienacollegeblog.blogspot.com/2008/10/siena-college-rotc-program-places.html

I just found a wikipedia article on Siena Alumni http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Category:Siena_College_alumni and one on the Siena Saints Men's Basketball team http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Siena_Saints_men%27s_basketball

On the show Law and Order: Special Victims Unit, the character Olivia Benson graduated from Siena College. I heard about this from a friend and started to look this up. It is in the Olivia Benson wikipedia article and is sourced there. This may not be too big, though especially a lot of colleges are referenced in the media, but the show is pretty popular and it's nice that a smaller school has a reference like this. They could have chosen something like NYU or Harvard instead. Sabres7414 (talk) 21:48, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Location

I have put on User talk:hippo43 the reasons as to why Siena College is in the hamlet of Newtonville. I do not understand his apparent disdain for the hamlet. The town hall of Colonie is DIRECTLY across the street from the college and the official town website lists it as being in Newtonville. I dont know how more direct you can get as to the college being within that hamlet. A ZIP code does not determine what city or town or hamlet or place-name a location is within, this is explained in the ZIP code wikipedia article under the subsection "ZIP codes only loosely tied to cities". Any further reversion/exclusion of Newtonville will be considered vandalism with the intent of an edit war and will be reported. If anyone disagrees with it the proper course of action is a discussion on this, the talk page. I also do not understand the qualification "this is not notable" on the edit summary. Newtonville, New York is an article of larger size than that of Loudonville, New York and the name of the hamlet in which a college is situated should be put in an article if its mailing address is considered "notable". How is the mailing address notable if the hamlet is not?Camelbinky (talk) 20:19, 22 March 2009 (UTC) addendum- the address given by hippo43 does not show up on mapquest using the name Loudonville. Only by putting Newtonville as the city does the address show up and it is the location of the college.

I have cleaned up the article. This really is trivial and not worthy of an encyclopedia. Nothing to do with disdain for any hamlet. --hippo43 (talk) 21:06, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Mapquest is a reliable source, it is used by FA articles on roads, highways, interstates. If it is good enough for Featured Articles it is good enough here. I will be adding two more references as well. Removing a legitimate source is VANDALISM.Camelbinky (talk) 21:08, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Calm down. I don't consider it a reliable source in terms of proving that a mailing address is not the actual location of an institution. I may be wrong. Can you refer me to the policy which states that it is a reliable source, in line with WP:RS? In any case, I have no idea why this is so important to you. --hippo43 (talk) 21:16, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I've cleaned this up again. The sources cited by Camelbinky do not state that the college is in Newtonville. The college's own website is clear on the matter - I've added it as a source. --hippo43 (talk) 21:26, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Why is it so important TO YOU that you keep removing it?! You have started an edit war and are vandalizing the article. You have now removed THREE sources and put as the summary "none of these sources say the college is in Newtonville". Did you bother to read the sources? Each source DOES mention Siena College and Newtonville. As for mapquest as a source- go to some of the FA articles on roads, I believe but not positive that NY Route 32 is a FA article and its uses things lcike Rand McNally and Google Maps. Unless you are saying mapquest is not as reliable as those two. I dont see a difference between google maps and mapquest. If a source is reliable for multiple FA articles, its good enough for this article which I would barely put at a B, most realistically a C. If this is not important, then leave it alone and move on. It is important to me because I am co-founder of the capital district wikiproject and specialize on the municipality/hamlet articles and to have inconsistancy between Newtonville article saying Siena is there and the college article saying otherwise can cause problems. That is why it matters to me. The college's website is about its mailing address, not its physical address. PLEASE GO TO Zip codes to read about why a ZIP code is not about where a place actually resides! PLEASE! You seem to be misinformed about what a ZIP code represents!Camelbinky (talk) 21:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC) Explain to me how the town of Colonie has its town hall (which is DIRECTLY across the road from the college) listed as Newtonville on ITS website but the college somehow is in a different hamlet?! It is not in the hamlet of Loudonville! A ZIP code is not a designation of what hamlet something is in! I have explained that on your talk page. Please see the ZIP code article here on wikipedia to learn more. Newtonville exists. The college is right there alongside other things that consider themselves to be in Newtonville.Camelbinky (talk) 21:33, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The 'sources' you inserted are garbage. One is a link to a map, which does not state that Siena is in Newtonville, and as far as I can tell is not a reliable source according to wikipedia policy - WP:RS. You haven't bothered to address this in your reply. Referring to what some other articles include is irrelevant. Please address the issue of policy.

The one-line advert which you cited is also not a reliable source, and does not state that Siena is in Newtonville, or address the issue of confusion. It simply lists an address, which according to your argument means nothing.

The blog that you cited (again, not a reliable source) is not an authority in this, and only says "odds are that most, if not all, of the campus actually sits in the Hamlet of Newtonville".

The college's own website is absolutely unequivocal - "Siena ... is an independent undergraduate liberal arts college located in Loudonville, New York", it makes no reference to the mailing address. If the Newtonville article says Siena is in Newtonville, it is wrong, according to the College itself. You, however, presume to know better. By removing that source, you are the editor actually vandalising the article. I have fixed the mistake in the Newtonville article. --hippo43 (talk) 21:46, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The USPS (which is a part of the federal government and therefore I hope we can say a reliable source) allows as a proper address format for the college- 515 Loudon Rd. Siena, NY 12211 Does that now mean that the college is ALSO in some hamlet named Siena? And believe me the USPS is very very very anal about what they consider to be a proper format. Have you read the ZIP code article yet on why ZIP codes are NOT where a place is in reality? ADDRESS THAT FIRST and I'll address your concernsCamelbinky (talk) 21:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't understand your apparent obsession with addresses. Please read the wikipedia policy on reliable sources before making statements about what is and isn't a reliable source. The college itself is very clear. If you disagree you will need to find a proper source which states that Siena is not in Loudonville. Please refrain from vandalising the article. --hippo43 (talk) 21:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

To be clear, my view, and the statement from Siena itself, have nothing to do with ZIP codes. --hippo43 (talk) 21:53, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Because the college is using the ZIP code and the fact that saying "Loudonville" has more panache than saying "Albany" or "Newtonville". It's a glory thing. It makes them seem higher class. I'm obssessed with addresses because that's how we determine wher something is! The college is in the hamlet of Newtonville! Explain to me why you are going by ZIP codes?! As I've tried to explain to you alot of places say they are in such and such a place but arent because they go by their ZIP code. The headquarters of Mr. Subb (if your not a local to Albany, its a sub chain like subway) is listed as Cohoes on their website, because that is their address and ZIP code, but the headquarters is in the town of Colonie not the city of Cohoes. Do you understand the difference?! I really encourage you to read the ZIP code article and LEARN SOMETHING!Camelbinky (talk) 21:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Again, the college itself is clear. It is in Loudonville. Your claims about their motives are worthless. Have you even read my replies above? I am not 'going by ZIP codes' - I am going by what the college says. The source I have provided makes no mention of ZIP codes. I have no interest in an article about ZIP codes - I am interested in reliable sources. Find a proper source if you want to change the article. In the mean time, please stop vandalising it. --hippo43 (talk)

I respect that you are trying to maintain the notability and validity of information added to articles. However, your citation about the college being in Loudonville hamlet is not substantiated, because the source does not say Loudonville hamlet specifically, merely Loudonville, which could refer to the ZIP code. There are many places that have a mailing address that doesn't match up with their physical location. Gansevoort NY, for example, is a hamlet in the town of Northumberland. But because there is a ZIP code that uses Gansevoort as a mailing address, people in the towns of Northumberland, Wilton, and Moreau have a Gansevoort mailing address. It would be factually inaccurate to say that someone in the town of Moreau lives in the hamlet of Gansevoort simply because they have a Gansevoort mailing address. Two more examples: West Mountain Ski Area says it is in Glens Falls NY. The Great Escape and Splashwater Kingdom says it is in Lake George. But that is by ZIP code. Actually both are in the town of Queensbury. I feel that there is insufficient evidence thus far to support either Loudonville or Newtonville as the hamlet containing Siena College. --JBC3 (talk) 22:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The source is clear. It doesn't mention ZIP codes or postal addresses or hamlets. To suggest it 'could refer to the ZIP code' has no basis - it just says the college is "located in Loudonville", which is what this article should say - I've amended it accordingly. --hippo43 (talk) 22:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that is a fair compromise until such time as better sources can be produced. I have also included in the infobox both the town location (Colonie) and the postal address (Loudonville 12211). --JBC3 (talk) 02:05, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Just throwing in my 2¢: I have always heard Siena being referenced as located in Loudonville, but the map Daniel Case presented is a very convincing source (realistically, the most respectable source offered, even more so than the the college itself, which could be seen as a COI source, but that's pushing it). While I'd agree with the map, reading a map as a source does constitute as original research. Hippo43's mention here of the google search hits is notable also. I think this will end up being one of those unfortunate examples when verifiability beats truth (read first paragraph), even though the verifiable fact is not truth. I'll agree that technically Siena is located in Newtonville, but it seems the vast majority of sources consider its home to be Loudonville (even if it may not be the most correct). Annoying, yes. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 07:18, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

When I originally edited this page (which is what started this whole thing), it said that Siena was in Loudonville. I noticed in previous revisions it had said Newtonville. Not having a source at the time to substantiate either one, I changed it to Colonie (the lowest of legally defined municipal levels), and created a section about the hamlet discrepancy. Having gone to Siena myself, I knew it to have a Loudonville ZIP code but knew also that it was closer to Newtonville, so I felt it warranted noting. Hamlets are not trivial, or there wouldn't be thousands of articles about them throughout Wikipedia.

I agree that a COI argument could be made for the college as a source. The Great Escape & Splashwater Kingdom claims on its website to be in Lake George, but on the same page has a Queensbury address. It is physically in the town of Queensbury. That much is verifiable. Rochester Institute of Technology on its website says it's in Rochester, New York, when clearly it is in the town of Henrietta (see northwest corner of white area near the "k" in York--Hello RIT!).

If the article Loudonville, New York were about "the ZIP code 12211", then to say that Siena is in Loudonville would be perfectly fine with me. But the article says Loudonville "is a hamlet in Colonie". We have established that the college claims to be in Loudonville, but I think I have more adequately demonstrated that the college cannot be considered a reliable source anymore than the Great Escape or RIT can. To say that Siena College is in Loudonville is to say that it is in the hamlet (by extension of the Loudonville, New York article), which has not been verifiably demonstrated. That said, I still do not think that any source thus far has sufficiently put to rest the Newtonville/Loudonville argument.

--JBC3 (talk) 16:18, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

What COI argument? I read the COI article and it does not preclude this type of source - it seems to be more about editors than sources. In any case, what conflict of interest? How is Siena served by claiming to be in Loudonville if it is actually in Newtonville? Since when do respected universities lie about where they are located? Furthermore, there are thousands of sources online which say that Siena is in Loudonville. I felt that linking to the college itself would be more convincing.

Introducing other examples which aren't relevant to this one doesn't help. In those cases that you mentioned, the wording of the articles should be dependent on the sources, like all Wikipedia articles. At first glance, your arguments about those cases, based on reading maps, seem to be original research.

This also has nothing to do with ZIP codes, or the Loudonville, New York article. Using Wikipedia articles as references for each other is not cool, and in the way you described amounts to synthesis. This article just says Siena is in Loudonville (not 'the hamlet of Loudonville' or 'the ZIP code of Loudonville' or anything else), and that wording is what is currently supported by the sources. --hippo43 (talk) 17:45, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, so I took a quick look at Administrative_divisions_of_New_York#Hamlet, looking for sources that might be useful. That article says that hamlets have no specific legal status in NY law, that their boundaries are not always explicitly defined, and that they are somewhat analogous to neighbourhoods. In that case, how can you possibly claim definitively that any location is within a specific hamlet, when that will always be open to interpretation?? If the info in that article is correct, your entire argument that 'Siena is in hamlet X, not hamlet Y' is unprovable and ridiculous. --hippo43 (talk) 01:13, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I guess we better write to the college and tell them that their assertion that they are in Loudonville is unprovable and ridiculous, so they should take it off their website. --JBC3 (talk) 03:34, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to do so, but until they do remove it, it's still a reliable source! In any case, the source (and this article) says Siena is "in Loudonville", not "in the hamlet of Loudonville". If you read Camelbinky's earlier rants, part of his objection was based on a supposed distinction between stating "in Loudonville/Newtonville" (which to him implied a postal address) and "in the hamlet of Loudonville/Newtonville" (which meant a geographical location).

"Siena is in Loudonville" is a verifiable statement, and is supported by numerous sources. Trying to prove that Siena is "in the hamlet of Newtonville" by referring to maps and nearby landmarks is clearly spurious, if hamlets have no official boundary. --hippo43 (talk) 03:50, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Like I said previously, verifiability trumps truth in this case. Though what would be just as verifiable as the college website is an email from their communications department stating such. Give it a try, then post it here. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 03:55, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Except it wouldn't, at least according to my reading of WP:RS. I may be wrong, but that's not how I understand the policy. --hippo43 (talk) 04:04, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

← I would call it a self-published source assuming the right person can be contacted. This would be one of those extraordinary circumstances, especially since the truth is known; it's the verifiability that is being contested. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 04:09, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Why do you assume that 'the truth' is known, and that it's not what the sources say? Thousands of sources concur, including the college itself - Siena is in Loudonville. If there were a lack of reliable sources, that might necessitate individual correspondence, but there isn't. A single email from a person stating their opinion would not compare to the overwhelming evidence of the published reliable sources. Fishing for an individual to contradict the clear consensus of sources, then claiming that their opinion is somehow the authoritative one, would not be a credible approach. --hippo43 (talk) 04:44, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Regarding, This article just says Siena is in Loudonville (not 'the hamlet of Loudonville' or 'the ZIP code of Loudonville' or anything else), and that wording is what is currently supported by the sources. → Hippo43, this article doesn't say Siena is in Loudonville, it says Siena is in [[Loudonville, New York|Loudonville]]. Anyone following that link would read "Loudonville is a hamlet...". By the logic you seem to present, one can change it to [[Bologna sandwich|Loudonville]] because what will show on Siena College article will still be the word Loudonville given by the source. --JBC3 (talk) 04:18, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

You make a good point, but the linking is the issue. (And I don't really follow your Bolgna sasndwich argument) Wikipedia can't be considered a reference for itself, and sometimes these inconsistencies crop up. We could change this article to say "The college is in Loudonville, [[New York]]" rather than "[[Loudonville, New York]]" (though the college source says "Loudonville, New York") but that wouldn't improve the article. We are clearly talking about the same place. The fact that hamlets (in the NY sense) may not have defined boundaries doesn't mean they don't exist at all. --hippo43 (talk) 04:44, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Also, looking at the article again, the reason for the piped link (to Loudonville, NY) is to avoid repeating 'New York' in the first sentence, while retaining the uncontentious Colonie. It also allows a reader to navigate to New York itself. If you have a better way of writing it and changing the wikilinks, it might be an improvement. --hippo43 (talk) 04:50, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Plus, if you guys ever decided not to link to Loudonville, somebody in the future definitely would. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 05:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Wow, just as I was going to just give up and not ever care about wikipedia ever again I get surprised! I would like to thank Wadester and JBC3 for their continued support on this issue. Personally I would like to state that I think the issue of verifiability over truth is a weakness of wikipedia, but there isnt really any other better alternative. To paraphrase Winston Churchill- "It has been said that wikipedia guidelines are the worst type of guidelines, except all the others that have been tried". Hope that got a chuckle or two. First off- Hippo43 how can you justify stating info about hit counts from google books or google as relevant or reliable or admissable to this discussion if you are going around and shooting down every piece of evidence anyone else uses for their opinions as being "unreliable" or not encyclopedic? Google uses a much different formula for searching the internet than ask.com and for ranking those searchs, and both formulas are more secret than Coca-cola's recipe so it's hard to say they are reliable if you dont know how they do their search. so You shot down an ad in New York (magazine) because it was an ad, but chances are it was placed by the college itself, so the college itself would have been saying its address is Newtonville. Also- I just dont see how the town hall of Colonie which is directly across the street from the college (and I have plenty of sources that state that) is in Newtonville (according to the town website itself) but somehow the college is in a different hamlet. Places have to end somewhere but with hamlets ive never heard of it going down the middle of the road, and you can actually look northwest from the grounds of the college and actually see the Newtonville Post Office, and I dont mean "in the distance", I mean I can run across the street to the PO and back in two minutes! Im willing to give a try at writing to the Historical Society of the Town of Colonie (which I hope we can all agree that the college is in that town right Hippo43? Or do I need a source that says so? Because all I have to base it being in the town is looking at a map). Perhaps the historical society can give us a reference source on the college (at least when it was first built) as being within one hamlet or another, as the college predates the introduction of ZIP codes therefore anything on the college being built and where prior to the ZIP codes introduction (for select cities as early as early 1940's, nationwide but non-mandatory in the early 60's, mandatory by the end of that decade or the early 70's) should put to a rest the issue that ZIP code names are influencing where the college is. But I dont know if that will pass Hipp43's criteria either. I know there is some hatred about mentioning ZIP codes and all that, but to be correct the ZIP code for Siena College is 12211, that much seems to be agreed on, BUT the USPS (which is a reliable source I would assume seeing as how they are the ones that decide what names go to what ZIP codes so if they arent a reliable source on this issue then I dont know who is) states that the ZIP code for 12211 is for the "acctual city name- Albany" and that the alternative names of Siena or Loudonville MAY be used but are not the prefered names, only Albany is. http://zip4.usps.com/zip4/zcl_3_results.jsp Given that then I would like to put that the college is in the city of Albany based on the reliable source of the United States government! Or better yet, I want the article changed to the college being in Siena, New York! It's not the truth but its a reliable verifiable source. If we are going to go around putting false information in an article based on the fact that you can find it on the web, we might as well make it funny. Since I'm known for my rants, I'll continue- Hippo43 talks about what COI would Siena College have and what would they have to gain by saying they are in Loudonville. Hmmm, those of us that live in the Capital District- can you think of why you would say "I'm in Loudonville" as opposed to the MORE CORRECT (according to the USPS) address of "I'm in Albany", or "I'm in Newtonville". Siena College I ASSUME draws mostly from the local area or Long Island (like most colleges in the CD, especially true of SUNYA where I went, and Skidmore in Saratoga Springs), and Loudonville is well known in the area and even on LI as being highclass and wealthy and prestigous. To advertise as Newtonville or Albany puts you as a nowhere location for the first name and for the second knocks you down as equal to St. Rose or SUNYA. For those outside the area reading this- Loudonville is the premier suburb of Albany, houses in the millions of dollars and a mystique of wealth and prestige associated with it. Siena College has a large PR department (one that has gotten in trouble for editing on this page, or at least someone claiming to be a part of the department, see comments in other sections above regarding this), just as with any company, presitge is important to a college. Need a source for this? Well, there is an old episode of Law & Order that mentions Loudonville and a character states that its a "posh" suburb of Albany, sorry I dont have a correct citation for that, please take my word for it or look it up yourself somehow. BTW- On Law & Order:SVU the character Olivia Benson mentioned she went to Siena College. Yes, yes, I can hear it already- its all "irrelevant" and "original research" and all that. But as I've said all along- at some point alot of circumstantial evidence and common sense should in the end trump even the "holiness" that has come to be associated with the verifiable reliable "rule". Here is an analogy that I hope helps, but seeing as how Hippo43 doesnt like analogies we'll see- the article "North River Steamboat" (about the first commercially viable steamboat, went from Albany to NYC) is titled as such even though many many many more sources use the name the "Clermont". Why? Because one source, that was the most definitive source on the boat, got the name wrong and put Clermont as the original name, all other sources copied that source because it was the "definitive" source. But here in wikipedia the truth got out and the article stays at North River Steamboat even though most people would look up the name Clermont. For the record- I was for keeping it at the Clermont name and against using the name North River, ironically for the same reason Hippo43 uses on this issue...kharma bites my ass hard. So going around and saying that "the vast majority of sources say Loudonville" is not legitimate, especially if they are all basing it on where the college promotes itself as being at. The college does have a COI in this instance. One whole quad (Dutch) and adjoining fields, parking lots, possibly even the sefcu arena and football field at SUNYA is actually in Guilderland and not in Albany but to my knowledge no one says you cant put that in the SUNYA article because the college says its official name is University at Albany, SUNY, and doesnt mention Guilderland in its name, its address is 1400 Washington Ave Albany, NY 12xxx. Though I'm sure some elected official in Guilderland has at some point thought about trying to get the name in there somehow. So Hippo43 go ahead and go to University at Albany and remove any references to Guilderland because in your logic nothing trumps the official website of a college as to its address and location.Camelbinky (talk) 22:44, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

The fact that you managed to write 1350 words on this one reply suggests you may not be looking at the issue with a very balanced view. I'm not sure if I've managed to understand all of your comment, as it's all in one long paragraph.

The difference between the sources you cited and some of the points I've made in this discussion is that you attempted to cite them in the article itself. Google search results are not a reliable source for the article, but it's legitimate to refer to them in a discussion – it illustrates the relative weight of the references. Google Books is simply a mechanism for searching actual books, most of which are reliable sources, per WP:RS. I like relevant analogies – the other cases you referred to obviously all have different details, so it's very difficult to make a direct comparison.

You seem to be assuming that 'in Loudonville' is false, yet you simply can't prove that. You may be correct that the college would like to say it is in Loudonville because it's a prestigious area, but unfortunately the sources don't support that. It's not just the college who says this – there are a huge number of sources, published over a wide timespan, which agree, and there's no reason to suspect they have all been duped by the college's PR department.

My understanding is that a 'hamlet' in the NY sense is an inherently subjective concept. In that case, it is not possible to prove, using official boundaries, that a place is within one hamlet or another. It is a matter of opinion, just as with city neighbourhoods. In that case, the consensus among the published sources are what is important here. Your opinion that hamlets never end in the middle of a road is classic OR. FWIW, “chances are it (the advert) was placed by the college itself, so the college itself would have been saying its address is Newtonville” is also original research.

Please stop banging on about ZIP codes. ZIP code names are not “influencing where the college is.” I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. The issue is where the college is located, nothing to do with its ZIP code or even its postal address. The college says it is (currently) in Loudonville, thousands of sources concur. Where it was when it was built or where you think it was in 1972 are not what this is about.

You need to understand that your position on this is a minority view, and to go against the weight of so many sources would need something extraordinary. Reading maps, finding an individual to agree with you, referring to your own beliefs about the area, or finding very poor sources which suggest (but do not state) that Siena is in Newtonville are not sufficient.

You wrote “in your logic nothing trumps the official website of a college as to its address and location.” I really don't believe you have read and understood my previous replies. I am not referring to the college's address at all. I am talking only about its location. I have not said that nothing trumps the college. I do, however, believe that Wikipedia's credibility depends on the primacy of sources, not the rambling conspiracy theories of someone who thinks “I can run there in two minutes” is a useful argument. --hippo43 (talk) 23:36, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, really...I'm in the minority view when it currently stands 4 against 1 that perhaps its legitimate that Siena really is in Newtonville.. has anyone come here to support your view on how things should be? I have gone to WP:Troll, which is a soft redirect to a meta-wiki essay (not a guideline) on what a troll is and does and how one should handle it. You, whether you admit it or not, fall within what is described. I will treat you as such. I will bring this to conflict resolution. I am not the only one here who has been using analogies and talking about ZIP codes to get the point across to you, yet you refer in your response that I am. I am sorry if you are not able to read a lengthy response or do not understand other people's arguments. It is mentioned in the essay on trolls that a common response of trolls is to not acknowledge others sources or arguments as legitimate. The consensus in this argument is against you. You are the minority. I am sorry if you feel the sources are overwhelmingly in your favor. As I see it there IS one thing that trumps verifiable reliable sources...and that is a consensus in favor of something else. I will go to conflict resolution and in the meantime will not discuss this with you anymore. In the meantime I will see if JBC3, Daniel Case, and Wadester will discuss with me and can come up with a compromise amongst ourselves that is reasonable for this article. If we do come up with a compromise and place it in this article your reverts then will be vandalism. You claim your position is only that you want to "preserve the integrity of the sources in article I contribute to", but you never contributed to this article before you stumbled upon it. You lied when you said it said Loudonville already when you came across it. It said Newtonville, I put it there. A "who?" tag was placed on it, and THEN you came along and changed it. After I labeled that as vandalism and undid your change you continued to change it back. Many compromises have been put forth including my suggestion to just mention the town of Colonie as the location as that is most definitely the location of the municipality it is in. You refused to consider any compromise stating you are only correct and we are wrong. Another aspect of a troll that is mentioned in the essay. I am not longer going to feed the troll. You dont show any knowledge of the subjects involved as to where the location of the college is, only that you take the college at its word. You dont understand the logic behind why the college may want to advertise that it is in Loudonville. I would be very understanding and accepting of you disagreeing with the whether the college is or isnt advertising in its own best interest therefore a CIO and having your reasons about that, but you dont disagree you simply dont understand the argument and refuse to consider the argument. You disavow our sources. I am disavowing and considering YOUR source to be against wikipedia guidelines on CIO sources. Since you take it upon yourself to remove sources out of bounds so will I. Your source is no longer valid. Thank you. This shouldve gone to conflict resolution long ago. Finally it will.Camelbinky (talk) 02:00, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

As an aside, when you add a reference, please be sure to put it in WP:CITE format. It's really not that difficult and is a wikipedia standard. If you need help using it, feel free to ask me, but WP:CITE is pretty informative. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 02:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

If you prefer a different style, I'm happy for you to clean these up. Obviously there are a lot of different styles of citation. AFAICT, all the relevant details are there in my references. --hippo43 (talk) 03:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually there's not many styles. Wikipedia has a style unto itself: CITE. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 03:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on this, so I may be looking in the wrong place. However, my reading of Wikipedia:CITE#Citation_styles and Wikipedia:Citing_sources/example_style ("There is currently no consensus on a preferred citation style or system for Wikipedia.") is that many styles are ok for Wikipedia and we should follow the citation style first used in an article. In this case, there were no other printed works cited when I added these, so no particular style to use, and my citations appear to have all the required info. As I said, I don't mind at all if another user prefers a different style. --hippo43 (talk) 05:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Camelwinky, from the essay you referred to - “Trolling is a deliberate, bad faith attempt to disrupt the editing of Wikipedia ... Genuine dissent is not trolling.” I'll try to answer some of your points below. If you aren't interested in reading them, perhaps it will help in 'conflict resolution'. FWIW, I'm very open to sources which oppose my view, I just don't believe the sources you have contributed are consistent with policy. As you have pointed out, I hadn't contributed to this article until recently, so I came at it with a very open mind on the issue. When I looked for sources, there was no disagreement among them.

“Ok, really...I'm in the minority view when it currently stands 4 against 1”

4 against 1?? So you aren't counting the thousands of sources stating that Siena is in Loudonville? There is already wide consensus among respected sources.

“I am not the only one here who has been using analogies and talking about ZIP codes to get the point across to you, yet you refer in your response that I am.”

I don't know if you are the only one or not, but you have been the most vocal and repetitive, and I have tried to stress to you repeatedly that my argument is not based on anything to do with ZIP codes. There is no evidence that sources mean “Siena has a Loudonville ZIP code” when they say “Siena is located in Loudonville.”

“If we do come up with a compromise and place it in this article your reverts then will be vandalism.”

So if a small group holding a fringe view agree on a 'compromise', while excluding those who hold the opposing majority view, then anyone who disagrees with them, citing multiple reputable sources, is a vandal? Please think about your statements.

“but you never contributed to this article before you stumbled upon it.”

So what? So you own the article and I'm not allowed to clean up your POV edits?

“You lied when you said it said Loudonville already when you came across it.”

Where did I say this?

“It said Newtonville, I put it there. A "who?" tag was placed on it, and THEN you came along and changed it.”

Yes, you added Newtonville, after several other editors had added Loudonville. Your addition was unsourced and clearly opposed by the consensus among reliable sources. At first I was only concerned with the quality of the writing. I felt the supposed dispute was trivial, so I cleaned up the unencyclopaedic language, leaving the 3 facts that were not contested – that Siena is in Colonie, that it has a Loudonville postcode, and its mailing address. (See diff here) Only then did I look into it further, to deal with the detail. I found relevant sources and amended the article.

“You dont understand the logic behind why the college may want to advertise that it is in Loudonville. I would be very understanding and accepting of you disagreeing with the whether the college is or isnt advertising in its own best interest therefore a CIO and having your reasons about that, but you dont disagree you simply dont understand the argument and refuse to consider the argument.”

I do understand this argument, as I said in my earlier reply. I just think it's speculation - there is no evidence for it. Also, my reading of WP:COI is that it concerns editors, not sources.

“Since you take it upon yourself to remove sources out of bounds so will I. Your source is no longer valid. Thank you.”

This sounds more like a petulant child than a serious editor.

I've added two more solid sources, which should end any debate over using the college alone. (There are plenty more if anyone really thinks they're necessary.) The relevant passages:

“Siena's 155-acre campus is located in Loudonville, a residential community 2 miles north of Albany...”

“Siena College has a quiet campus in Loudonville, a small town in upstate New York.”

Neither mentions ZIP codes, postal addresses or hamlets. --hippo43 (talk) 03:13, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Compromise solution

OK, guys, now that you're well on your way to making the "lame edit wars" page, may I suggest a compromise solution (noting that the map shows it just down Route 9 from Newtonville Park):

"Siena College is in the area shown on maps as Newtonville, New York, United States, though it has a Loudonville mailing address."

What we really need to see is the ZIP Code boundary map (probably in the Jimapco or MapWorks products). It may be that the Loudonville post office was better able to handle the college's voluminous mail, so they included its administrative buildings in the Loudonville ZIP (At Syracuse University, my alma mater, the administrative buildings have the separate ZIP Code of 13244, while all on- and off-campus housing uses 13210, the ZIP Code for that section of the city). It would be interesting to know what ZIP Code the houses nearby use.

Please don't continue to edit war here, or I will protect the page. Daniel Case (talk) 03:38, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Well put. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 03:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think we are really edit warring any more. We have managed to confine the lameness to the talk page over the last few days! I appreciate the proposal, but I can't agree at all with the suggested compromise. We don't need to find a map, or ZIP code boundaries, to produce some more OR, we need to go with what the sources say. This sounds like an attempt to shift the debate to postal addresses and ZIP codes, when that really isn't the issue. Wikipedia is written for a general audience - the mailing address or ZIP code is not notable to a general audience. The sources are clear that Siena is in Loudonville. They don't say "Siena has a Loudonville mailing address." I haven't been able to find a single good source which states that Siena is in Newtonville, so I'm opposed to including it as it's not a significantly held view. --hippo43 (talk) 03:52, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

One can hardly ignore a map from the USGS. Daniel Case's proposed solution really is a good compromise. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 04:09, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

How about:

"The overwhelming consensus among published third-party sources, and the college itself, is that Siena is located in Loudonville. In addition, Siena has a Loudonville mailing address. However, although Loudonville and Newtonville are hamlets without defined boundaries, a tiny number of Wikipedia editors have looked at a map, in an example of original research, and their opinion is that Siena is in the area shown as Newtonville."? --hippo43 (talk) 04:34, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Damn, that was helpful. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 04:46, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not trying to be a dick, but to me it's a better version than the Groupthink proposed by Daniel Case. WP:UNDUE states "articles should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and will generally not include tiny-minority views at all." --hippo43 (talk) 05:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Truce

Can I suggest a truce? Camelbinky and myself have both been guitly of taking this a little too seriously. Until now only a handful of editors have been involved here. Perhaps a request for comment would be useful in getting some wider attention? --hippo43 (talk) 06:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it would be. And I would advise you that disrespectful, sarcastic remarks like that above will get you blocked if repeated. Daniel Case (talk) 15:17, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Loudonville, Newtonville or both RFC

Review above discussion (if you can).

Summrizing as follows, if you can't:

Siena College is a small Catholic liberal-arts college located in the Town of Colonie, New York, USA, just north of the city of Albany. Like many towns in New York, not every location in Colonie is known locally as Colonie. There are several "hamlets", or unincorporated communities, in the town. While these areas have no legal status, they often have other community identifiers such as ZIP Codes or fire/fire protection districts, both of which are clearly delineated from each other and (in the latter case) are legal entities with the power to levy property taxes. Sometimes other toponyms are used as community identifiers, such as names of roads or other manmade additions to the landscape.

Siena uses the hamlet of Loudonville, which has its own ZIP Code (12211) as its mailing address. But maps show it as being in the middle of the hamlet of Newtonville, which also has a ZIP Code of its own.

So, the question is, how should this article (and the articles about the two hamlets) describe Siena's location?

Arguments for Loudonville (revised to include some more)

• Consensus among reliable sources that Siena is located in Loudonville, including those cited in the article (added)
• The college's website states "Siena is...located in Loudonville, New York, a suburban community just outside the state's capital."
• The college's mailing address is 'Loudonville'
• No evidence that anyone else describes it as being in Newtonville.

Counterarguments

• It's not uncommon for institutions or businesses in the US to claim a different mailing address from their physical location for whatever image they wish to project (the 08540 ZIP Code for Princeton, New Jersey, for instance, sprawls into a number of neighboring communities and two other counties). This does not mean their Wikipedia articles should not accurately describe their location
• Siena's website is promotional material for the college

Arguments for Newtonville

• The map, especially the USGS map linked above. On it, and many others that follow this US-government-compiled master map, the word "Newtonville" is right next to the college campus. Newtonville Park is just up US 9 from campus.
• Colonie's town hall, just across the road from the campus, uses Newtonville as its mailing address.

Counterarguments

• Maps aren't reliable sources for this sort of thing. No reliable sources have been supplied to support Newtonville.
• The maps do not state that Siena is in Newtonville, and do not show a boundary (for Newtonville) which encloses the college. The maps are being interpreted by editors. This is original research.
• If the college says it's in Loudonville, that's what matters.

Possible solutions

1. Siena is in Loudonville
2. Siena is in Newtonville
3. Siena is in (some acceptable combination)
4. Siena is in the Town of Colonie, with no greater detail than that.

Open for discussion. Daniel Case (talk) 15:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The statement above is not neutral at all. It doesn't mention that a wide range of reliable sources state that Siena is located in Loudonville. Not its mailing address, or its ZIP code, or 'the hamlet of Loudonville - just 'in Loudonville'. The current statement in the article is well-sourced. The users who believe that Siena is in Newtonville have not yet supplied a single reliable source to support this. I have also looked for such a source, and haven't found any.

Also, it is not correct to state "maps show it as being in the middle of the hamlet of Newtonville". These maps do not show a boundary for Newtonville. Some editors are essentially saying that 'Siena looks closer to the word "Newtonville" on the map'. This is clear original research. --hippo43 (talk) 16:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That's why you add to the "Arguments in favor of Loudonville" section. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 16:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

As I understand it, the summary statement for an RfC is supposed to be a neutral statement about the dispute. The statement by Daniel Case, an admin, was not neutral at all. He neglected to mention the clear consensus among reliable sources, instead focusing on mailing addresses and ZIP codes as being the basis of support for 'Loudonville', which is not the case. IMO this is not good practice by an administrator. --hippo43 (talk) 17:12, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

You seem to have this hatred of Zip Codes, but they are relevant here. I don't see much/any POV in this. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 17:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

To state that it's closer to the location of the community name on the map is an observation, not original research.

Granted, I will qualify some things about the USGS maps: they were mostly put together around 70 years ago with only sporadic updates since (looking over the ones for where I live, there are some names no one uses anymore, on the maps because there was more of a community there at whatever time the map was first made, which can sometimes go back to the early 20th century). The center of Newtonville might have been where the word was at whatever time the quad was first surveyed, and kept by later cartographers. But looking at the satellite photo one could argue that "Newtonville" is now more the area around the junction of Routes 9 and NY 155 ... the sort of shift that could have happened with the advent of the automobile (I'd love to see an older version of the map, from 1937. I would bet that both communities were more distinct in 1937). Daniel Case (talk) 19:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I have no hatred of ZIP codes at all, but they are not the basis of the pro-Loudonville argument. To characterise the Loudonville argument as being based on the college's mailing address and ZIP code is a distortion. The basic argument for Loudonville is that there is broad consensus among reliable sources that the college is "in Loudonville." To leave this out of an RfC statement is not neutral. --hippo43 (talk) 17:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I thought the crux of your argument was that "they use it as their mailing address". As you've noted, neither area has defined political boundaries. Without boundaries, there can be no in and out of anything, Not technically.

Now, I have asked to rely on the ZIP Codes because there are separate ZIP Codes for both hamlets, and the Postal Service delineates them, to the point they are included on many maps sold by commercial publishers. That would be an excellent way of settling it in an objective fashion. Daniel Case (talk) 19:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That would be OR, IMO. If a published reliable source states that 'Siena is in Newtonville', that would be useful. There are already plenty of reliable sources which say that Sienaa is in Loudonville. If some editors want to try to prove them wrong, they need to find published examples of their theories, not publish them here for the first time. --hippo43 (talk) 21:06, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Zip codes have specific commercial uses. If one went by Zip code, one would think that the Veteran's Hospital here in Milwaukee was a separate municipality, just because it has its own Zip. They are not geographical entities, but tools for handling flow of mail. Any further extension of their use is inappropriate, as well as original research. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Orangemike, and must also add that just because the USPS uses Loudonville and Newtonville as nominative identifiers for the areas covered by the their respective ZIP codes doesn't mean that the ZIP code coverage areas are directly associated with the hamlet boundaries. For example, ZIP code 12831 is called Gansevoort by USPS. It shares its name with a hamlet called Gansevoort, NY. But the ZIP code is much larger than the hamlet, as it covers parts of 3 towns and several other hamlets. In short, to use a ZIP code region as a hamlet identifier is simply inaccurate. --JBC3 (talk) 20:29, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

To be clear about the crux of my argument - it is not to do with ZIP codes or mailing addresses or hamlets. I think these distinctions are not really relevant. My argument is that numerous published sources, and the college itself, state that Siena is "in Loudonville" or "located in Loudonville". They are not talking about the mailing address etc. I have added quotations to the sources supplied in the article. --hippo43 (talk) 20:48, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm shifting the paragraph back to the left, its gotten a little out of hand shifting over so much! So, about ZIP codes, which I know some dont want to talk about, I just want to clarify something about the ZIP codes of Loudonville and Newtonville for everyone- they overlap. This might have gotten lost in one of my earlier rants on this subject, or was put on someone's talk page instead of the article's when this was a two-person argument. Anyways- Newtonville is one of the many post offices that does not deliver mail, they only have PO Boxes. If you live within the Newtonville ZIP code you have a PO BOX, but if you wish to have home delivery then you may get Latham or Loudonville (depending on where you live) to deliver your mail to your home. Siena gets "home" delivery therefore a Loudonville ZIP code. Secondly- according to the USPS (which is the sole decision-maker on names that go with ZIP codes) the 12211 ZIP code's official city name is Albany; with Loudonville or Siena as acceptable alternatives. Anyone in the 12211 ZIP code may refer to their address as xx blank street Siena, NY 12211 and it goes through the mail just as if it was Loudonville. And yes, putting the wrong city name with a ZIP code DOES slow the mail down on its route. More can be read at ZIP code and www.usps.com. Newtonville started off as, like most hamlets (including Loudonville) and villages, even some cities, as a four-corners name; the intersection of Maxwell and Loudon Road (US Route 9). Loudonville started as the four-corners name of Ireland's Corners (Menand Road/Osborne Road intersecting Loudon Road with Old Niskayuna Road bisecting as well). I hope this was somewhat educational, I think some were not totally clear on the meaning of Newtonville versus Loudonville in relation to ZIP codes.Camelbinky (talk) 20:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

As I understand it, Camelbinky, PO Box-exclusive ZIP codes don't have geographical locations, so there is no overlap. I could get a PO Box in Newtonville if I wanted to, and I don't even reside in the county.

As for using ZIP codes as an indicator of the hamlet, consider that one source, The Most Accurate Free USPS Zip Code Map Anywhere!, places Siena College is in 12110. According to USPS Zip Code lookup this area is known as Latham, with Newtonville an acceptable alternative. However, NYS GIS Clearinghouse (alternate link -- sorry, don't think either link is direct) shows Siena College in 12211, which would be Albany/Loudonville according to USPS. These hamlets existed before ZIP codes were created. --JBC3 (talk) 21:23, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure, but would like to know if you have more information on that concerning that the PO box only ZIP codes do not have geographical areas. I believe, but am not sure, that within a the ZIP code for Newtonville you can have a PO box, but just as with any other post office if you wanted a PO box you would need to pay extra if you are outside the ZIP code. This is just my understand. The Newtonville PO also predates the ZIP code, perhaps it was once a delivering post office? Perhaps even after the introduction of a ZIP code it was still delivering mail and later the PO box only situation came about due to constraints on building size and money crunches. All supposition that needs to be researched if it matters at all. But I understand your arguments. The USPS still considers 12211 to have Albany as its official city name with Loudonville and Siena as acceptable alternates. That should have some bearing on this discussion?Camelbinky (talk) 22:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Local Realtor's description of Newtonville and Loudonville

Newtonville is not an incorporated town, but rather a loosely defined area--a neighborhood really--beside the also nebulous Loudonville, both of which lie within the town of Colonie. Roughly speaking, Newtonville runs along Route 9 from Siena College to Hoffman's Playland, taking in part of Maxwell Road to the west and over to Fiddlers Lane to the east of Route 9. Loudonville lies to the south of Newtonville.[1]

Hmm. That seems like Siena is just outside Newtonville. Daniel Case (talk) 19:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That can be taken either way. It doesn't state whether it starts at Siena inclusively or exclusively. And no one would expect them to point that out either. I think this is another grey area source. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 19:59, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Agree - this is not clear, or a reliable source. --hippo43 (talk) 21:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

A Times-Union reporter blogs on the subject

While Siena College has a Loudonville address, odds are that most, if not all, of the campus actually sits in the Hamlet of Newtonville, which, according to U.S. Postal Service data, has a population of 0, unless you count Post Office Boxes.

(Deeplink to post because this wouldn't work with the quoting template) Somebody invite him to this party. Or at least let him know about it. Daniel Case (talk) 19:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Followup: I left a comment below the post, referring him here and inviting him to do some original research and blog about it (Any resulting post would be a reliable source). We'll see how this develops. Daniel Case (talk) 20:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Why would such a post be a reliable source? My understanding is that it might be a reliable source, if we can determine that the blog is subject to the same editorial control and fact-checking that the rest of the publication is. However, note that he also writes - "there’s no firm consensus as to where one (hamlet) ends and another begins." --hippo43 (talk) 20:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm assuming the suggestion isn't that it's a RS, but that the writer may have some. Won't know unless you ask. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 20:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

"Any resulting post would be a reliable source" sounded clear to me. --hippo43 (talk) 20:49, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see that post, I thought he meant the blog itself. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 21:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it looks like it wouldn't meet RS. He's not a reporter for the paper, and the page has this disclaimer:

The blog is written by a reader and is not edited by the Times Union. The blogger is solely responsible for content. If you want to add to the discussion, add a comment.

Still, though, you'd think the Times-Union doesn't just let any reader blog about things ... you know they'd hear about it if someone with their name on the page starting using their server space to rant about Jews and Freemasons, and such. Daniel Case (talk) 22:16, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm the one who wrote that blog, and I'm definitely not a Times Union reporter. For the record, my observation that "odds are most of Siena is in Newtonville" wasn't based on any empirical evidence, but rather with me having been sucked into a low-grade flame war on the topic with Camelbinky at some point in the past, that essentially led me to throw up my hands and decide that editing Wiki pages really wasn't worth the effort involved anymore. So citing me is a circular argument, as I was just passing on things I'd read here. My real point wasn't to serve as a reference point in what I consider to be a very, very, VERY silly argument, but rather to highlight the incongruities between Louisville (a well-defined metropolitan area with a major university in its midst) and Loudonville (an essentially meaningless construct from any political or geographical standpoint, other than the cache associated with having the L word in one's mailing address). I don't know if the water towers or power lines are the highest structures either. I was writing what I thought was a humorous article. All that said . . . if you want me to be an arbiter, I say Siena is in Loudonville.Gnhn (talk) 13:46, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I see in another section that Camelbinky noted "The blog by a native of this area in the Times Union website." Take a better look at the header of my blog, my friend . . . I am a native of South Carolina. That said, I do a LOT of exploring of local areas that most folks ignore (see the "Hidden in Suburbia" link at the bottom of the Latham, New York page for proof of that) and I'm something of a map and geography geek by temperment . . . but, still, I'm quite amused at being in any way, shape or form cited as a source in this argument, and I'm shaking my head at the time and energy that has been put into it here. What difference does it make, really? (Please don't feel obligated to answer that hypothetical question).Gnhn (talk) 14:02, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I had actually retired myself Gnhn, and our argument in almost 2 years ago had NOTHING to do with Siena, but obviously you have issues regarding it. Our argument had to do with you continuing to put "smallbany" in the Albany, New York article. Can everyone please stop talking about me as I just wish to read articles and learn new things instead of this drama of everyone talking about me. There have been over 5-7 other editors who have said on here that Newtonville should be mentioned at least in connection with being next to the college. But it apparently is easier for those who have issue with me personally to use the way I write as a reason for pushing their own agenda. I never argued with you about Newtonville, I think its hilarious you think I had and that you were thinking of me when you wrote that blog, there is no discussion on this talk page between you and me about Newtonville on Siena College or on Loudonville, New York, and Newtonville, New York was created by me after you stopped editing. So what flame-war did we have other than you putting smallbany on the albany, ny article? Why this grudge? Leave me alone.Camelbinky (talk) 14:13, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Since you've retired, Camelbinky, I guess there's no way for me to reply to you formally, but if you re-register under different name and read this, we did have conversations about Loudonville/Siena, and the Smallbany thing, and Neighborhoods in Albany . . . . though some of those edits I made from work computers under generic IPs, not under my currently logged-in identity. I'm sorry to have caused you to retire. That certainly wasn't the intention, I was just more amused at seeing some of those conversations from years ago continuing. I wish you all best, and did not view my post as an "attack," so I sincerely apologize to you that you read it that way.Gnhn (talk) 14:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry to the rest of you, too, actually . . . having now gone back and read a lot of the posts here, I can see how mine might have come across as pouring salt on an open wound. That wasn't the intention. I was more trying to make light of the subject (as I had originally intended to do in my blog post), but obviously failed stupendously in that regard. Oh well. Back to not posting on Wikipedia anymore, I guess.Gnhn (talk) 14:41, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I thought the blog was hilarious. :) I don't think anyone needs to stay retired permanently, or to withdraw now. doncram (talk) 16:23, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for apologising Gnhn and I apologize back for causing you to feel you had leave, I hope you decide to come back now that I'm gone, and you are not the one that caused me to decide to retire so there is no need to be sorry about that. I'm sorry I still dont recall ever having a conversation with ANYONE about Newtonville and can not find it on this page. I do still want to thank you again (a year and a half later) for creating Neighborhoods of Albany, New York, I was new and didnt know how to and you helped me out and taught me alot about how to put an article together, I never had anything personal against you, I think you were a great editor, I just did not agree with the smallbany comment in the albany article. If you decide to come back to editing after this year or so you have had off, I would be honored if you took up some of those articles I have since created, as many of them dont have much traffic.Camelbinky (talk) 21:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

About how to organize this discussion

It has become confusing to follow the discussion above about what Daniel Case wrote, because the summary that Daniel wrote is being edited by others. Perhaps it would be better to revise the summary back to being just what Daniel Case wrote, and to convert its sections into bolded or otherwise formatted outline form that does not create new Talk page discussion sections. And then we could considering his summary as his summary at one point in time, not to be further edited. Daniel, would you do that, or is it okay if i do? By the way, i think Daniel's original summary was fine: Note, it was his summary, and he started off by asking readers to review the longer Talk discussion further above. But, it is also confusing that it included sections, perhaps Daniel meant for editors' continuing discussion to be organized within such section headers. However, i think this RFC discussion has to be allowed to ramble on as editors say whatever they want to say. Could the editors who inserted other arguments for Loudonville or otherwise, please just restate their arguments, in a regular fashion of adding another discussion point below? I think that will be less confusing for the RFC than having many editors add and delete summary points into and out of Daniel's summary above. doncram (talk) 19:39, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't sure how people would respond to this, although I did sort of think the summary of the argument would be left as was. But if Hippo wants it to reflect what he feels are his arguments, that's fine if it helps keep the discussion harmonious. Daniel Case (talk) 19:50, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Hippo's response about the map was more than fair. I personally do feel it is a bit of OR, unfortunately. If an editor feels the summary is biased (which he apparently does), adding more info that is reasonable shouldn't be a problem. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 20:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I revised Daniel's summary to label one argument point as having been added later, and to replace Talk sections by bold formatting. If there were other argument points added later, perhaps those should be noted too. doncram (talk) 21:05, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Just say the college describes itself as being in Loudonville

Looking at the article, I think the solution is just to say in the article that "the college describes itself as being in Loudonville" with this one footnote.

Reference

The other references which someone has argued show a consensus that the college is in Loudonville are not independent or helpful on that fact, and they should just be deleted from the article, in my view. Those other references are:

1. ^ Franek, R., The Best 357 Colleges, Princeton Review, 2004, p.470; "Siena's 155-acre campus is located in Loudonville, a residential community 2 miles north of Albany..."
2. ^ Peterson's Four Year Colleges, Peterson's, 2006, p.2254; "Siena College has a quiet campus in Loudonville, a small town in upstate New York."

As guidebooks to colleges, those sources are just summarizing material from the colleges they cover. They just are accepting that Siena College is where Siena College is saying it is, they are not providing independent research on the location of the college. Leaving them in the article seems to suggest that there must be some issue which is better discussed at the Talk page of an article; it is usually not appropriate to have triple footnotes in an article about the location of a place. doncram (talk) 21:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Not a bad idea, except what would stop someone from coming by in the future and changing it to "Siena is located in Loudonville, New York [source]", like we did?

"Those sources are just summarizing material from the colleges they cover." This is speculation. These books are published third-party sources and are reliable sources, per WP:RS. Neither of them uses the same wording as the college's site. I agree the article looks like crap with three references, and I would support removing them - I obviously only added them because this is currently contentious. If you prefer different sources, there are loads out there which state that Siena is in Loudonville - I can supply others.

There is no need to qualify the statement by saying "the college describes itself..." The wide range of published sources is practically unanimous - it is not just the college. --hippo43 (talk) 21:32, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm sorry, please allow me to restate: Those sources all include some material about the colleges which is accepted at face value and is not independently checked. All or almost all of the sources you can find will clearly be repeating what Siena College asserts, not presenting independent research on the difficult question of defining Loudonville. Such research is not the purpose of guidebooks to colleges. If you can find a source that is seriously studying what are the historic and current boundaries of Loudonville, please present that. Note, by the way, the Peterson's guidebook is obviously inaccurate here: it states that Loudonville is a town, which is false. doncram (talk) 21:48, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I quite agree, Doncram. --JBC3 (talk) 21:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

That's a nitpick. I don't think they mean "town" in the minor civil subdivision sense. Daniel Case (talk) 22:20, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Doncram, "Those sources all include some material about the colleges which is accepted at face value and is not independently checked. All or almost all of the sources you can find will clearly be repeating what Siena College asserts" This is all pure speculation. These are respected sources, and you have presented no eviedence to discredit them or their research methods. They desrcibe the campus and the area in different ways, which further suggests they may have done their own research.

" not presenting independent research on the difficult question of defining Loudonville. Such research is not the purpose of guidebooks to colleges." You are right - and "the difficult question of defining Loudonville" is not the purpose of this article - perhaps it is a debate which would be of interest at the Loudonville article. The point here is to reflect the consensus view of reliable sources.

"If you can find a source that is seriously studying what are the historic and current boundaries of Loudonville, please present that." I don't need to find such a source - this article is not about the historic and current boundaries of Loudonville, it is about Siena College. I have already presented several good quality sources which state that Siena is in Loudonville. --hippo43 (talk) 23:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

What a load of crap! Sorry, you are beginning to get under my skin. "This is all pure speculation": What, you think the college guidebooks go in and pay for independent audits, to count the number of volumes in the college library, to run a census on how many students are at the school, etc.? Of course they accept a lot of what the colleges say at face value, as they should. "You have presented no eviedence to discredit them or their research methods": Actually, i pointed out that one of them has a technical error in its statement about the location of the college. Yes, it is nitpick to say that Peterson's reference to the town of Loudonville is an error. In fact, it is probably well-chosen language that conveys, succinctly and accurately, that the area has a town-like character, as opposed to having a rural character or an urban character. This is of interest to the readers of guidebooks, and I would not suggest to Peterson's that they change their wording. But, I would not choose to quote them in wikipedia on the specific point of the location of Siena College, given that there is a technical error in their statement. doncram (talk) 23:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

You are being ridiculous. There are numerous sources out there which state that Siena is in Loudonville. To imply that they are all influenced by the college's desire to talk itself up is pathetic. 'Town' has a very broad meaning and you are trying to restrict its usage to a very narrow definition. Using the widely-understood definition of 'town', Loudonville is a town. If it is "well-chosen language", that suggests they have some knowledge of the area. In any case, the point of verifiability is that Wikipedia has to accurately reflect what is published in reliable sources. Inevitably editors will disagree about various sources' accuracy, motives etc, but that is not grounds to leave them out. --hippo43 (talk) 23:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

from Hippo43: "the difficult question of defining Loudonville" is not the purpose of this article - perhaps it is a debate which would be of interest at the Loudonville article —We can debate it here or their, either way I sense it will be debated, and by the same editors. --JBC3 (talk) 00:45, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Hippo's comment that town has "widely-understood definition" and and Loudonville meets it...can you tell me what that widely-understood definition is? I have a political science degree so I'm biased from the fact that I know the technical definitions of townships and towns versus villages, cities, unincorporated villages and the difference each meaning has across the country; my technical knowledge may be insulating me from the everyday use, this is a real question I'm not being cute, I'm trying to know the layman's definition as you know are applying it. If you are saying a "town" in layman's terms is a built-up "town center" type of a central business district, then actually the nearest CBD would be that of Newtonville as by what I believe you would agree is in Newtonville (and its CBD) is adjacent to the college (I'm basing the CBD as the PO, town hall, Newtonville Park, the Newtonville Methodist Church, Newton Plaza I & II, centered on the four corners at Maxwell & Loudon Roads extending north and south in a strip along US 9, that being the built-up commercial area with buildings normally associated with a CBD), Loudonville has arguably two CBD's- the nearest one several miles to the south and separated from Siena college by woods and large houses with large setbacks on acre or more lots very rural for the town (legal definition) of Colonie. I would assume the editors chose a generic term like town to mean any place regardless of type of municipal charter, perhaps checking to see what it says for a college we know of to be within a city's borders, such as the College of St. Rose is most definitely in the city of Albany or RPI in Troy. Which is why I think a good compromise would be "Siena College is in the town of Colonie", we can all agree that it is (please?). Town can be wikilinked to Administrative divisions of New York#towns. I would really hate to get into an argument over whether the college is or isnt in the town of Colonie because that would really get this into the "stupidest argument ever" category because apparently we cant just look at a map and say "hey, it is in the town". (I know stupidest isnt a word btw.)Camelbinky (talk) 00:58, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Um, stupidest is a word. Some people don't consider it the correct word to use, but it is a word. --hippo43 (talk) 22:38, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

My arguments

Since some of my arguments were on other people's talk pages and in other places I will state them here. Feel free to ask me questions about my personal opinions and of what I consider to be facts. Since this whole discussion is partly my fault as I am the original one who put Newtonville in the article in the first place. I am now sorry about that, as it has caused the info about Siena to be removed from the Newtonville article and placed in the Loudonville article as well after being separated for quite some time with no problems. My views are circumstantial evidence for the most part but taken together I believe do present a convincing argument for the compromise of putting in the article something worded better but along the lines of- Siena College is sometimes refered to as being in the hamlet of Newtonville, though it uses Loudonville for its address and promotional material.

I personally believe that the college is in Newtonville because-

1. the town of Colonie states on its official website that the town hall is in Newtonville, and it is across the street from the college.
2. Along with the town hall the PO of Newtonville is about .8 miles from the main entrance to the campus. The Newtonville Methodist Church is about 1 mile away.
3. Loudonville is only one of three acceptable names for the same ZIP code, in fact the most correct way to label its mailing address as Albany, NY 12211 according to the USPS. There are parts of the city of Albany itself in that ZIP code.
4. Siena College has alot to gain by promoting itself as Loudonville over any other name.
5. Any other sources would be relying on Siena College's own promotion. No one would ever question it and if so, would simply for convenience-sake go along with it.
6. The "advertisement" in New York (magazine) I used as a source while it doesnt say it was placed by Siena College it only makes sense that the college would be the only one placing an ad in a magazine for mail to be delivered generically to the college. It uses Newtonville as the address.
7. There are multiple maps that while not a source, I believe common-sense looking at a map bolsters an argument. A map from 1866 town of Watervliet (the name of the town back then) that is on Colonie, New York, any Jimapco map that can be picked up at a local store (Jimapco does sell across all Upstate NY and throughout New England), the USGS maps, NYSDOT quadrangle maps. All place Newtonville on or in proximity to the college with Loudonville considerably farther south to the point that even if the word Newtonville didnt appear on a map one with no prior knowledge wouldnt consider Loudonville as the location of the college.
8. epodunk.com and other such sites, while they have been labeled as unreliable and un-encyclopedic I believe bolster arguments to the fact that "some people (sources)" consider the college to be in Newtonville, which is the very least I am aiming for in this article. The epodunk.com citation is on a previous edit version of the article.
9. a blog on the Times Union website. Bolsters the argument of "some people (sources)".
10. not enough research or time has elapsed to say that more definitive sources cant be found. It has already been suggested by opponents of Newtonville's inclusion that historical sources that say it is in Newtonville can not be accepted. The college predates the use of ZIP codes. If the farms and few residences on the land it was built on used the Newtonville name for delivery or for their address or whatever, I believe that should be included if there is a source for that. Same for what the college used as its address/location in promotional material prior to ZIP code introduction and prior to Loudonville being considered what it is today, a posh upscale hamlet of wealthy millionaires and corporate tycoons and lawyers and doctors (and the owner of Mr. Subb)

That's all I can think of for now, feel free to ask questions, comment, disagree, poke holes in my logic or sources.Camelbinky (talk) 21:43, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Without wanting to get bogged down in arguing over each of these, here is how I view each of them.

1. original research
2. original research
3. original research
4. original research, and ignores other published reliable sources
5. original research, and possibly libels respected publishers' research.
6. original research. No attribution to the college – it could have been placed by any single employee, and does not even state that Siena is in Loudonville Newtonville. As you have pointed out, mailing addresses are not straight-forward.
7. original research
8. haven't seen the material, so I can't comment
9. not a reliable source, and doesn't state unequivocally that Siena is in N'ville. ("odds are that most...")
10. of course reliable sources could be found in future, I have no problem with that. If a source is found that disagrees with the current references, then this will need to be revisited. However, per WP:UNDUE, it is important that sources are given appropriate prominence.

--hippo43 (talk) 21:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

1. Strange you claim you cant comment on number 8 because you didnt see the material because it was a source that you removed. So you are basically saying you removed a source that you didnt look at for its reliability or verifiability? Check the article history, you did an undo of my edit after I put in the citation. So were you just randomly undoing any edit that put in Newtonville?

1. "Possibly libels" is strong language, contact them and if they are worried I would be more than happy with giving them my phone number and address and that of my lawyer and we'll see what happens.
2. Of course the advertisement doesnt say the college is in Loudonville, that's kinda my point. If the employee has enough power or responsibility to place the ad for the "summer experience" at the college then it must through common-sense be accepted that it was sanctioned by the college. Your argument of it being by any individual or group of individuals can be used against the Siena College website. In fact the website was probably produced by a third-party, such as a webmaster or advertising company.
3. No one, as far as I know, is trying to remove Loudonville so Newtonville is exclusively in the article. So I dont get your "doesnt state unequivocally that Siena is in N'ville". That is our point as far as I can speak for the others. The college's location is unsure and the article should reflect the fact that there are those who believe the college is in Newtonville, or at least in a no-man's-land between the two hamlets.Camelbinky (talk) 22:11, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

8. Not sure on this - I'll look at the history. I may have mis-spoken.
:I've looked through the revision history and cacn't find the epodunk article you say I removed, though I may have missed it.
5. "Possibly libels" is fairly circumspect. You wrote "Any other sources would be relying on Siena College's own promotion. No one would ever question it and if so, would simply for convenience-sake go along with it." This is speculation, it is disrespectful and it is entirely self-serving. These are respected publishers, per WP:RS. To try to smear their research methods, without evidence of your own, because they disagree with your view, is pretty shabby.
6. Typo - corrected above. Your statement "If the employee..." is original research. If you are now saying that the college website is not produced by the college, then it would be a third-party source, and the COI argument would not apply!
9. The college's location is not unsure, according to a large number of reliable sources. The unsure-ness of a couple of editors here cannot be reported in the article - it is original research. --hippo43 (talk) 22:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Old fasioned way of research

Anyone want to go to the Colonie Library/Town Hall and look up old records with me? Like maybe a deed of sale to the college, or a tax record, or old newspaper archives? Maybe some history books? --JBC3 (talk) 21:46, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I suggested contacting the Town of Colonie Historical Society previously, I believe Hippo43's answer was that historical citations of where the college WAS in the past is not acceptable to him. If I am wrongly presenting his opinion I apologize in advance. The Historical Society is ironically in Newtonville, it is actually along the way on the most direct driving route from the town library (Albany-Shaker Road/Maxwell Road) to the college and town hall, two other places that may want to be visited should time allow you. The college library according to online sources has a large collection of old material from when the college began. It did not originally have the name Siena College this may be important in researching early clippings, I am unsure of what they refered to themselves other than as the College, the Siena College website has a history area where they give the full name of the college and when it was given by the Catholic Diocese but fails to mention what the original name was.Camelbinky (talk) 21:57, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

My only caveat on that would be that the sources cited are essentially saying that Siena is currently in Loudonville. Any historical documents would be really useful, but would only reflect how the area was known at the time. It is questionable that the info they reveal would be notable enough to include. That said, a good History section would be a useful addition to the article.

Besides, if the Historical Society is in Newtonville, there is an obvious conflict of interest - they would want to say that Siena is in Newtonville - it's a prestige thing. :) --hippo43 (talk) 22:10, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Gee, you seem to feel everybody has an agenda. What makes you think the historical society will want to say that? Maybe they might be interested in being neutral and impartial. Daniel Case (talk) 22:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought the :) would help. I thought I was being hilarious. --hippo43 (talk) 22:36, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I'll save my gas money and stay home then. --JBC3 (talk) 22:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The original name was St. Bernadine of Siena College, I believe (it changed its name in the 60s?). Ironically, I don't know how much help the historical society will be. When I contacted the town historian, who serves as the contact person for the historical society, he associated the hamlets with their zip codes, and then cited the phone book and college website as sources. --JBC3 (talk) 22:05, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, a search of Google books, filterd between 1930 & 1949 reveals lots of examples of Siena being considered in Loudonville. If you substitute N'ville for L'ville, not so much. --hippo43 (talk) 22:14, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

BYOB, I don't know what your short speak means. --JBC3 (talk) 22:19, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, means 'for what it's worth'. --hippo43 (talk) 22:36, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, now I know. --JBC3 (talk) 00:36, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I'm not liking the town historian right now. I would definitely say a phone book is not helpful or reliable or anything for a source! As for the conflict of interest, I do get it was a joke, but the town historical society is for the entire town, it would be like now saying we cant use anything from the town of Colonie itself because the town hall is located in Newtonville. If anyone can find an email for Jack McEneny and contact him he literally wrote the book on Albany history. He is a great researcher and has a huge resevoir of knowledge about the county. As for google books, one- who cares? because google books does not have all the books of the world or even close, google itself does not search the entire internet and uses a complicated secret formula for its searches and how it ranks them and since all search engines use a different patented formula for that no one knows which is most accurate; ask.com says there's is more accurate and searches more than googles, two- the fact that there is even ONE is enough for me as to putting a caveat on the article that there is a dispute as to the original location. Too many people editing right now, I will wait till tonight to answer any more comments that are posted, I am running into "edit conflict" and resubmiting all the timeCamelbinky (talk) 22:22, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Google Books is useful for searching books and sharing links with others to illustrate a point. Any of the sources it recovers might be a useful source. Would you be saying the same thing if the results were in your favour by a factor of hundreds?

Besides, Google Books was good enough for you when you cited that magazine ad.

One dissenting source is not necessarily sufficient to mention. Read WP:UNDUE and WP:OR. One example, from WP:OR, "If your viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, then — whether it's true or not, whether you can prove it or not — it doesn't belong in Wikipedia, except perhaps in some ancillary article. Wikipedia is not the place for original research." --hippo43 (talk) 22:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Second compromise

Came up with while at my yoga class between now and my last edits. Well, actually on the way to it, but there's nothing like downward dog to clear your mind.

"Siena College is located between the hamlets of Loudonville and Newtonville in the Town of Colonie, New York, United States"

This subtly allows for interpretive ambiguity and (possibly) the location originally being between two then-discrete communities. Daniel Case (talk) 23:40, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate the effort, but that statement is simply not supported by the sources. Siena is "in Loudonville" according to multiple reliable sources. The current sources don't support mentioning hamlets in the article at all. The idea of a hamlet, in the NY sense, will be lost on the majority of the 'general audience' that Wikipedia is written for. There still hasn't been a reliable source presented which supports mentioning Newtonville, or, worse, 'between Loudonville and Newtonville'. --hippo43 (talk) 00:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, then "unincorporated village" instead of hamlet, that is the term by the state of New York, at least that's what I learn in "State and Local Government" when I was a freshman in college and had to do a research paper on the town of Sand Lake. But that doesnt address your main issue of "its not supported". That same compromise has been tried in different wording from day one, I myself have offered variations. Please help us with some sort of compromise you are willing to live with. Or is it just a matter of your way and that's it?24.182.142.254 (talk) 00:28, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Me, didnt notice I wasnt signed in first.Camelbinky (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with "Siena is in Loudonville" without mentioning hamlets, unincorporated villages, or mailing addresses - the sources are clear enough. For me, and according to my understanding of policy, the compromises proposed so far have been a lot worse, by introducing language that is not supported at all by sources. As far as I can tell, there is no dispute or confusion or ambiguity among published sources. --hippo43 (talk) 00:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

So Siena is in Loudonville, but not necessarily the hamlet (unincorporated village) or mailing address (ZIP code). Is there another thing it could be? --JBC3 (talk) 00:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The sources I have cited call it "a suburban community", "a residential community" and "a small town". I think it could be called so many things, that it doesn't need further explanation here. There is a whole article devoted to Loudonville, and that level of detail is not relevant to Siena, IMO. --hippo43 (talk) 01:11, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

A hamlet by any other name... would still be a hamlet. And what's IMO? --JBC3 (talk) 01:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Again, sorry - IMO = in my opinion. You're right, it would still be a hamlet, but the sources don't say 'hamlet'. There's just no need for this article to explain that Loudonville is a hamlet, or a neighbourhood, or an area, or an unincorporated village, or a small town, or a suburban community, or a residential community. It seems to me to be all those things, and maybe more. If readers want to learn about the status of Loudonville, the Loudonville, NY article is the place to go, surely. --hippo43 (talk) 01:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

New default language proposal

I revised the first 2 sentences in the article to read:

Siena College is an independent Catholic Liberal Arts College in the town of Colonie in Albany County, New York, United States. The college describes itself as being in Loudenville, a hamlet in the town.

with one footnote:

Hippo reverted to Hippo's previous version that included 3 footnotes about the location, and I reverted it back to this. This is indeed ridiculous. I'll stick around a bit to discuss this. I think it is factual: the college is in Colonie and it describes itself as being in Loudonville, which is a hamlet. Otherwise, I'm going to walk away from this article for a while. But I suggest that anyone else here should please revert Hippo's further reversions until Hippo has spent his 3 reversions for the day, and then Hippo should be reported for wp:3rr and blocked for a day or two. Or at least I hope this is how it plays out. doncram (talk) 00:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, Hippo reverted a 2nd time. Would someone else please revert Hippo? Actually we need to get him to revert 4 times for it to be a clear 3RR violation. doncram (talk)

While I very much like your language proposal and appreciate your contributions to this discussion, I fear the only thing edit warring/reverting will do is cause an admin to protected the page and block editors. Hippo's right, in that a concensus hasn't been reached, so edits to that aspect of the article should probably be avoided until this is resolved. --JBC3 (talk) 01:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of crap: Hippo states above: "I agree the article looks like crap with three references, and I would support removing them". But, when I removed the extra 2 references, including one that has a technical inaccuracy on the very point of location that it is being quoted to describe, he reverted, last edit summary being "rv. already being discussed at talk page. there is no consensus for your version. please do not remove legitimate sources." I see no consensus for Hippo's last version either, reflecting some development of those very sources earlier today. I offer to discuss here, and do discuss here. So, in the absence of any other discussion here on which is the better default version, I am reverting again. doncram (talk) 01:07, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I mean that I would be happy to see no references for this at all, if the article is a stable, agreed version. You didn't just remove these, you did so as a justification for inserting your preferred wording, without consensus. You removed the sources having stated that they were not valid. There was no consensus for removing them, or for their validity. Can you explain why they should be removed with reference to policy? --hippo43 (talk) 01:18, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Doncram but am hesitant to do so, for I have threatened this type of violation on hippo before but I have never brought anything like this against someone ever. I do hope someone else has the expertise and hutzpah to carry it out. I hate to see a fine debater like Doncram (some of you know from first hand experience how good he is) fall to the side because of this. I have gone up against Doncram on two occasions and got my patootie handed to me in a sling, and I know if he gives up there may not be hope for the rest of us. I personally would like to state that when I saw Doncram enter the fray and agree with some of the same logic I did I thought "well, if it convinced him to enter then we're on the right side". Well enough with kissing his butt, anyone please carrying out Doncram's plan?Camelbinky (talk) 01:09, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

To Camelbinky: Thanks, i guess! It happens that both Hippo43 and I have now been warned by an administrator on our Talk pages. Another revert by one of us should probably cause a 24 hour block from wikipedia, or something like that. Actually I was counting and thought that we have each reverted twice, so technically he could revert once more, then i could revert, and this his next reversion would be a violation of the 3RR rule. Actually, administrators can block sooner, they don't have to wait until the 4th revert occurs, when it is clear that edit warring is going on. So i am not going to push it further! :) However, any other editor here could revert the article to whichever version they prefer now, without fear of being blocked.

To Hippo43: I don't have any stake in any particular wording. What i tried to do was to implement the consensus of this page (including your statements) that 3 footnotes on the location is excessive, and consensus here that Siena is in Colonie, and consensus that Siena describes itself as being in Loudonville. Then, to avoid suggesting to readers that there is a contradiction, i find it necessary to explain that Loudonville is a hamlet. I believe this language is factual and neutral. You are free to suggest a different wording that you feel is more neutral. This discussion section, hopefully, should be about what is a neutral wording that should be the default until a consensus for any majorly changed version emerges. Note, you do not need to revert to preserve record of the references you like. I did not merely delete them; I deliberately stated them here in this Talk page so they are reflected as part of this record. Your references did accomplish something, they do document well enough your point that many references can be found that report Siena being in Loudonville. doncram (talk) 01:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I also thought we were at 2 reverts each. The reason I reverted, keeping the references was because I felt they were useful while the discussion was ongoing. We have been ranting about this for so long on this talk page that I doubt anyone will want to trawl through the whole thing to get up to speed. The objection that I have to this 'neutral' wording is that, while less contentious, it is also less reflective of the sources. I will give it some more thought and see if I can come up with a compromise way of phrasing it. --hippo43 (talk) 01:48, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Doncram's 3RR proposal sounds like a clear example of tag-teaming - "editors .. coordinating their actions to sidestep policies and guidelines (such as 3RR and NPOV)". At the very least it is not the action of someone with a strong argument. --hippo43 (talk) 01:39, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Regarding concensus- how many do you need for that? It currently, if I am correct on everyone's position, stands at 4(at least)-1. I have seen votes on AfD close out at similar margins (Latham Circle), so is there a threshold for concensus that I don't know about? At what point does someone just say- look the majority thinks its wise to keep the article in a certain way regardless of the exact wording of wikipedia policy. Kinda like using court cases as precedent and common law as reasoning for going against the letter of the law in a court battle. Alot of the reasoning and logic that has been used for the inclusion of Siena as being in Newtonville has been used elsewhere in wikipedia and has not been challenged. I see google earth maps routinely used as sources on articles about highways and roads in the route description section, perhaps Daniel Case can shed more light on that as that is one of his specialities. Sites such as epodunk.com are often used on articles about places in which there just isnt very much out there about them or to supplement the article and fill it out (from what I understand hamlets, CDP's, villages, etc are exempt from the notability requirement for articles to exist, or are by definition notable and therefore the tiniest one cant be AfD based on notability, I could be wrong about that). At what point does reverting the actions of the majority of editors on an article be considered vandalism? Do we need 20 editors to agree with us?Camelbinky (talk) 01:49, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

@Hippo43 You are correct in citing WP:TAGTEAM. What was discussed above was unfair to you. Keep it civil, guys. An admin has the right to use judgement and block even if someone doesn't hit 3RR if it's severe enough. And openly discussing tag teaming is pretty severe.
@Doncram I completely agree with the proposed wording above. It is factual, neutral, and seems to settle the debate well. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 02:25, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, i guess it was a bit creepy or provocateuresque or something for me to be proposing it so explicitly. Although really i just blowing off steam. Like i said before, i let him get under my skin a bit. And it wasn't actually tag-teaming, since no one picked up on my proposal. It was definitely a bit rude on my part though.

To Hippo43: I'm sorry that came across as my wanting others to gang up on you. Although that is what i wanted, so I'm not really that sorry. :( Anyhow, I hope there are no hard feelings, sense that is the case. :) Hey, did you appreciate User:Dayewalker's notice on your Talk page? I liked his phrasing, and how it suggested he was on my side. But i felt less encouraged when i saw he wrote exactly the same thing on your page, suggesting he was on your side, too. I think it is a canned message from a template, which also explains why it was off on its suggestion about our being at the 3RR violation point. Also, I wonder how did Dayewalker and User:Mbisanz notice what was going on? I don't see any alerts on their Talk pages or any mentions at wp:ani or the 3RR reporting page. Perhaps there is some alert system that was triggered by my edit summaries stating "edit war". If this happens again i'll have to try to avoid tipping them off that way. :) And I am sorry, to everyone, that the page got protected, as that makes it a bit more inconvenient for putting in consensus changes or uncontroversial changes like spelling corrections. But Daniel Case is an admin and can put implement anything necessary.

To Camelbinky: dude, you can't dither like that. If I'm getting in trouble in a bar in The Pinebush, i need to know u got my back, bro', you can't be hesitating about whether the hamlet's municipal code forbids you from dropping the guy coming at mbe with a broken pool stick! doncram (talk) 03:37, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I felt Camelbinky showed good restraint considering the tempting prospective benefits. Good using your noodle, Camelbinky. --JBC3 (talk) 03:44, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

No hard feelings on my part. Also thought Dayewalker's notice was diplomatic, compared to the way some admins conduct themselves. I also rooted through Dayewalker and MBisanz's talk page and contributions, but couldn't see anything that tipped them off - probably your 'edit war' reference. --hippo43 (talk) 04:08, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Maybe they have bot accounts that pick that stuff up? There's even a website dedicated to detecting this kinda stuff: WikiRage.com. Then again, maybe they've been watching the page but not saying anything. --JBC3 (talk) 04:14, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi Mom! ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 04:24, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

We're not even in the top 30 on wikirage. That is really disappointing. --hippo43 (talk) 04:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Where we stand now

Well, the page has been protected, so we've got that ... we've got multiple editors, reverts that covered three articles. I'd say, Wikirage or not, we are going to make LEW when this is all over. Or when we just get bored and move on to something else.

I tried to call the college's News Service yesterday, but couldn't get to a real person. Perhaps someone has a firmer grasp of the school's history than we do, and can help us find sources to clear this up. Daniel Case (talk) 16:27, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I dont know about anyone else, everyone will have to make their own decision, but I started this and wont be continuing to fight anymore. As I've mentioned it is sad that not one of the five of us cared enough about the article to expand it or make it better but we have found the energy to research arcane sources from 70 years of history all over where the college is located. When the protection lapses and hippo wants to go back and revert it again, whatever, he's made it clear his position on compromise- basically he said he doesnt need to compromise because there hasnt been a compromise that is as good as his opinion. I think he needs to look up the definition of compromise. If we keep this up all it will do is get the article protected again, and this time one of us may get in more trouble. I for one will keep an eye on the talk page and after this discussion gets closed out and archived I will make sure that there is always a mention on the talk page about the disagreement on Newtonville/Loudonville and hope other editors who come across the page are willing to do research or people who live in Newtonville decide to take it upon themselves to claim what is theirs. The fact that in July of 2007 I first brought up the Siena College is in Newtonville not Loudonville issue on the talk pages of Siena College and Loudonville. No one for almost 2 years until now ever called me out on it and said "according to who?" "your full of shit" "no" or said anything on the talk pages. Even now it is one individual. I'm not going to continue to debate this issue with someone who has constantly shown they were and continue to be ignorant regarding any issue associated with determining where a location in New York resides. Hippo, I still contend that you clearly stated you are invested in this discussion because you want to "protect the integrity" of sources in articles "I contribute to", when I called you out on this your response was that you came to this article looking for a specific piece of information that then didnt find. Why have you not since then found the information and add it to the article? You have never mentioned if you have any knowledge regarding this college or have even ever been to Loudonville, Newtonville, the town of Colonie, Albany County, the Capital District, or New York. I'm not saying that anyone needs to have been to these places physically to understand them or contribute, Doncram doesnt live in the CD but he has contributed and learned and researched about ALOT of places and subjects within the CD and even started articles about places in them. The others too are integrally involved in multiple articles and aspects of CD articles and I believe are all members of that wikiproject. Is there a single wikiproject that covers this article that you have been an integral member of, any pattern of editing similar articles? Just what brought you here and why does it matter to you? I have stated what brought me here, my work on Loudonville, New York, Newtonville, New York, Colonie, New York, Capital District, Albany County, New York, and various other articles that have a direct relationship regarding Siena College. We know the nuances of hamlets in the CD area and how people associate with place names. We can bring our experiences to the table for a discussion. You dismiss this as original research. I can not argue with or convince a person who wont acknowledge the legitimacy of anything other than their own sources. I will no longer try. Though I am truly considering starting a grass-roots campaign to raise awareness among those in Newtonville of their identity and see how it goes, perhaps if enough people agree and care passionately about it first the USPS may decide to make Newtonville an "acceptable alternative" name for the ZIP code 12211 and then pressure Siena College to give at least partial credit to Newtonville. If people think its unlikely to work I'd like to point out that the town of Malta (which does not have a post office at all) is split between many ZIP codes with the names of the various surrounding communities, some Malta residents had to use Stillwater, Mechanicville, Ballston Lake, Ballston Spa and so on. But due to pressure from the town the USPS this year has made Malta an acceptable alternative name for those ZIP codes that cover Malta for the residents of the town. The residents of the town of Halfmoon have had less success in doing the same but have been petioning and such, they still have to use Clifton Park. Times Union articles on these developments can be found. I cant change wikipedia, then I will change the world that wikipedia describes. Everyone else do what you think is best for the article.Camelbinky (talk) 17:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC) addendum- it is starting April 15 that the USPS will start recognizing Malta as an alternative name for the various ZIP codes covering that town. Individuals (and business') keep their ZIP codes but have the option of using the alternative name Malta or leaving it the official name. So in practice you can switch to using and having your address in the phone book and elsewhere as Malta but your neighbors on either side and across the street adjacent to your back yard all continuing to use Ballston Spa. This is similar to how the Albany Intl Airport and Siena both use the same ZIP code but the airport uses the name Albany and the college chooses to use Loudonville.Camelbinky (talk) 17:46, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Just when things had become somewhat cordial in this discussion...

Ignorant? I look in reliable published sources - they say that Siena is in Loudonville and have been consistent in this since the 1930s. Your own prejudice is not relevant and doesn't belong in the article. Wikipedia determines things using sources, not the unpublished opinions of a tiny minority. If you're not prepared to accept the primacy of published sources, why do you edit Wikipedia? Do you think readers come here to read your thoughts about ZIP codes and interpretations of maps? The sources are clear, and you are showing real arrogance by still assuming that you know better.

You can't even quote from my talk page accurately. I said “I do have an interest in making the articles I contribute to as verifiable as possible.” I found the info I wanted somewhere else. It's not notable enough for Wikipedia.

If you propose a compromise that is consistent with sources and policies, it would be worth considering. If you had a strong argument you wouldn't need to attack my credentials. I suggest you read ad hominem. (As well as WP:V, WP:OR, WP:RS, which you don't appear to have understood.)

If you are serious about starting some kind of campaign to get the college to acknowledge Newtonville, I'd suggest you have some kind of attachment to Newtonville and have a conflict of interest here – you do not seem to be interested in producing an article that accurately reflects reliable sources. --hippo43 (talk) 21:46, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

New way of looking at it?

So I was thinking deeply, what is a hamlet again? A hamlet is a community that generally identifies itself by a particular name and as a separate ambiguously defined place from what is outside the community. What if Siena College, by saying it's in Loudonville and getting all of its students to think it's in Loudonville, has by definition become a part of Loudonville? In the absense of a resolute and authoritative voice from the Loudonville community expressing dissent about Siena's claim to belonging to the hamlet, must we not then accept the claim of the Siena community? Perhaps, it could be argued, Siena College is the hamlet of Siena College, and part of the hamlet of Loudonville, as no doubt the Siena students, constituting a community, think of themselves as being in Loudonville. Perhaps 100 years ago the area residents felt they were a part of the Newtonville community or maybe they didn't, but maybe hippo43 is right, maybe that's irrelevant now. So far, our discussion hasn't turned up many new facts. There hasn't been much compromise. What if the compromise is simply accepting the idea that by definition, the hamlet of Loudonville isn't about boundaries or history, but about present-day community? Is this what you've been working toward all along Hippo? Thoughts everyone? --JBC3 (talk) 02:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

When thinking about hamlets in my home town, I only think of them in terms of what they were in history and that today, they are historical artifacts of past society. Therefore, I don't see them as living, breathing groups of citizens, but as historical place markers. Just my 2¢. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 02:21, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me, though I don't consider myself an expert, that Loudonville is not only a hamlet. As well as a hamlet, it could be described as an area, a suburb, a community, a small town, a neighbourhood, probably more, especially as it is not an area with a firm boundary. I'm not sure how many people who live there would say that they live in "the hamlet of Loudonville", I guess they would likely say they live "in Loudonville." Noone really asks "in which hamlet do you live?", they ask "where do you live?" If the question the intro seeks to answer is "In which hamlet is Siena?" then I can see that some will find it contentious, between Newtonville and Loudonville. However, if the question the article needs to answer is "Where is Siena?" (and I think it is) then surely the answer, according to just about every source I've found, is 'in Loudonville'. --hippo43 (talk) 02:33, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

The more I think about it, though, what seems to be a strong determinant as to where a hamlet is and what it includes, is that "Residents of a hamlet often identify themselves more closely with the hamlet than with the town." (from Administrative divisions of New York#Hamlet --not intended as sourcing, just so you know where the quote is from). I agree with that statement, and that most residents of Siena College identify themselves more closely with the hamlet of Loudonville than with the town of Colonie, irrespective of the fact that they may or may not technically be considered within the historical understanding of the hamlet. --JBC3 (talk) 02:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

That could be because "Colonie" makes many locals think of Wolf Road. Colonie is just so big, you kind of have to differentiate. When locals ask me where I'm from, I tell them my town, but that's because it doesn't have the population of Colonie. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 03:06, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I think there hasnt been much compromise because hippo is just wearing us down and being stuborn. JBC3, you have personally come up with compromises, so has wadester, daniel case, me, doncram; that's five. The only one in this discussion who hasnt is hippo. The one person on the opposing side. If everyone else just wants to give up, fine, I will too. But I would want it kept on the record on this talk page after the rest of all this gets archived and frozen as a closed discussion- that we gave up, not that we were proven wrong. As for the jist of your current compromise (which is not much of a compromise, its a white flag)- most likely, but in the words of hippo- Original research, and we cant have that. I do agree that the ability of Loudonville to market itself as the wealth capital of the Capital District and of Albany in particular (even though the census data shows that there are other CDP's in the Capital District with a greater median income) has caused people and places to expand the idea of what Loudonville is. Does someone saying they live in Loudonville make it true though? Your argument is yes. Valid argument. I see the world as black/white I dont like gray, therefore I say no it doesnt. Taking just the town of Colonie- Latham has eroded the identities of the hamlets of Verdoy and Dunsbach Ferry and Boght and the Shaker settlement. The hamlet signs put up by NYSDOT clearly mark the hamlet define an area much much smaller than one considers to be "Latham" and barely doesnt even cover things like Latham Crossing, most of Latham Farms, and barely Latham Circle Mall. It is one of the few hamlets that DO have clearly marked borders thanks to the DOT signs (Newtonville has one DOT sign for its borders, unfortunately only for the northern border with Latham and not for the south with Loudonville). The articles on those communities still stand. Roessleville simply is forgotten by most today and called generically Colonie, few people outside that community even know where that is let alone how to pronounce it, even though 99% of all Albany County residents have passed through it at some point (contact me if anyone needs to know where it is) and despite the fact that the town has put up a sign at the border with the city of Albany telling you have entered the town and Roessleville specifically. Loudonville has swallowed up the identity of an "un-named neighborhood" (quote from the Times Union, because did not want to label it as Loudonville even though that is the ZIP code, again ask me on talk page for location). The airport is commonly refered to as being in Latham, even though it doesnt have a Latham ZIP code (but uses the name Albany with the same 12211 that Siena College uses the name Loudonville for) and it was built directly on the Shaker settlement with the northern end in Verdoy. Yes, Newtonville is getting gobbled up by Loudonville AND Latham, due to the greater name recognition of the two and the lack of a proper ZIP code post office delivery. Basically its the USPS's fault. I dont know if that means let the evolution of hamlets continue or stand up and say "not here". Lansingburg was annexed by Troy one hundred years ago, they said "no" to losing their identity, but they are a part of the city of Troy regardless of having their own school system, identity, even ZIP code (could be wrong on last part). In ending this long diatribe, I would like to say it looks like we are slowly giving up. I dont see that anyone has been swayed by the arguments given by hippo, though everyone can speak for themselves and say they have if they have. I have not been swayed. As I stated- if everyone else gives up, fine let him have it his way. The Newtonville article will be less without mentioning Siena, a fine piece of its history and what should be its proudest achievement as a community. All for the aggrandizement of Loudonville.Camelbinky (talk) 02:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I think communities that allow themselves to lose/change their identity do unfortunately get absorbed. (Probably comes from having a town historian that cites the phonebook.) If my deduction, through logic, of considering Siena to be in Loudonville because the student community thinks it to be so constitutes original research, then clearly it cannot be used as a source, but it never the less depreciates my enthusiasm for objecting to Siena being considered a part of the Loudonville community (and by extension, hamlet). I DO still think there is a viable, historical document that could let us know where Siena was as they broke ground. Even before ZIP codes, St. Benedictine (or whatever) of Siena College claimed to be in Loudonville, New York, but that doesn't mean it was. Back in the day, I don't know that anyone would have cared where Siena said it was as long as it brought jobs and tax revenue. White flag or open-mind, I feel I defended my points well and remained relatively concise and cordial. Let the chips fall where they may, lest further evidence come to light. --JBC3 (talk) 03:12, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

PS - I blame the USPS too. --JBC3 (talk) 03:13, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Camelbinky, you're right, I have been unwilling to compromise, because I've not seen a compromise suggested yet that I thought was better than my preferred version. This has been a lengthy discussion with just a few editors taking part, and none of us have moved very far. I hoped the RfC that I suggested would open things up and get a wider variety of views.

It seems that a concern for you is the status of the Newtonville article - a suggestion for that article could be to say something like "Notable landmarks are Colonie Town Hall and nearby Siena College." This is kind of deliberately ambiguous but it might help? --hippo43 (talk) 03:16, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

JBC3, I have also been looking for sources early in the college's history which might shed some light on where it was considered to be when it was founded. I haven't been able to find any kind of official history which would help - the college's website doesn't help at all. The sources I have found at Google Books all say Loudonville as far back as the 1930s - it may be an affectation on the college's part to say Loudonville, but it doesn't appear to be a recent one. --hippo43 (talk) 03:35, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, another thought on this. Most early sources seem to just say "Siena College, Loudonville", however at least one refers to "Siena College at Loudonville." It seems to be a convention in naming American universities to have "University of Texas/North Carolina/Maine at Austin/Charlotte/Augusta", perhaps because campuses were generally built adjacent to settlements, rather than within them, because of the space needed. In that case, when Siena was built, it may have been between Newtonville and Loudonville, built on the edge of Loudonville, and not in either. Over time, it would come to be considered part of Loudonville, hence now in Loudonville, as the meaning of Loudonville has evolved. I'm not suggesting any of this goes in the article, but it might go some way to explaining why the College never seems to be referred to as "in Newtonville." --hippo43 (talk) 03:59, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Hippo43, I am curious, you say you have found references to Siena as being in Loudonville (or at) as far back as the 1930's, may I see the sources? In my own searches I was unable to get that far back or at least I didnt pay attention to the dates and as that predates the ZIP codes I am curious to see them.

You may not be a fan of Google Books, but to me it's a good way to find stuff then look in hard copies - try this search. ---hippo43 (talk) 05:47, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Um, I actually am a fan of google books and use it all the time on History of Albany, New York and Port of Albany-Rensselaer and in fact used to find the sources I used in support of Newtonville. Never said I wasnt a fan. I said I dont like using hit counts from google or google books as that is misleading due to how they search and the fact that google books doesnt even come close to the number of books in the world or even in the LoC and alot of the "hits" are of copyright protected books that you then cant read right at google books and therefore have to rely on the snipet that the google books give you and believe its not given out of context and that the info you want is there. But anways, thank you for showing me that, normally I put google books on "full view only" mode and dont see the hits that are only previews and summaries. Most likely why I never saw any that you are talking about.Camelbinky (talk) 05:53, 27 March 2009 (UTC)addendum- did you notice that, not counting the books that say "content restricted", three of the books on that google books list predate the founding of the college (1937 according to the Siena website). How is it possible books from the early 1930's (1931 I believe is the earliest) are referring to a college that didnt exist...this possibly puts the Siena College website in a bind as to its reliability if it cant even get when it was founded correct. Or it shows that you cant take for granted everything put on google books.Camelbinky (talk) 06:07, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I noticed that too. Maybe because the college had been established (on paper) but not built and opened yet? It can't have been built in a day. --hippo43 (talk) 06:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Anyways, on a more introspective note- I find it sad and somewhat disturbing that in this discussion we have what I would consider five the best editors on wikipedia (Daniel Case, Wadester, Doncram, JBC3, and Hippo, not ego on my part or sucking up simply I believe to be the truth, I've seen the edits and articles the four of you have worked on and I hope my work on the Port of Albany-Rensselaer somewhat lifts me up to at least close to your levels). And yet during this entire discussion on one tiny aspect of- where the hell is the college; not a single edit, as far as I noticed could be wrong, was done on any other aspect of the college. We all had plenty time and energy to find obscure sources, maps, tidbits on ZIP codes, debating on end the nuances of "what is the definition of a hamlet?" "what is the difference between in and at?" But yet did anyone think of adding to the article what bach degrees it confers, the fact that the Siena basketball team plays at the Times Union Center in downtown Albany and not at the campus in (whereever), the fact that the team made it to the NCAA playoffs and won their game in the first round, knocked out in the second (I think), that the team won the MAAC tournament this year, the college radio station (um, is it 88.3 right?) unusually for a college station is one of the most popular stations in the Capital District, any history or current info on the college's relationship with the Catholic Church. This discussion is winding down and with that we'll go our separate way; Doncram back to his NHRP's (did i get the acronym right?), Wadester back to his schools, Daniel Case back to his admin duties and roads, JBC3 back to the North Country, Hippo back to making sure wikipedia keeps its high standards on sources. The article will sit here, lesser editors will come and go (no offence future people) and contribute here and there, vandals will come and go and some will get caught faster than others, some reading this who live in Newtonville/Loudonville/wherever may even get motivated to be more proud of Newtonville and start a movement to promote and revive the name and pride of the hamlet. But in the end what will this discussion be known for? If we are remembered at all it will be for this- at a time long ago, for a brief span of time this article got more attention from five editors than the attention 99% of articles get in the same span of time, yet so little was accomplished. If we all had each taken an aspect or section title of the article and researched it and wrote it up and sourced it, well we'd have five sections that didnt agree on where the college was located but we'd also have five damn good sections written and with the exception of the location of the college we'd probably have at least a GA article on our hands all in done in the week or so we've been arguing over this. Now this retrospection doesnt mean I agree that Siena is in Loudonville. I am content knowing that I know at least what I believe is the truth and perhaps someone will stumble on this and start that movement to say "no more Loudonville in Newtonville" and perhaps 20 years from now the argument will go the other way because the college was pressured by the community to change its promotional material.Camelbinky (talk) 05:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I hardly believe I can be considered one of the greatest editors on Wikipedia, I just do what I can to help where I can. I don't care about Siena College personally. But I do care about geography and municipalities, which is what got me into this in the first place. I did improve the article a little bit... I added the school colors to the infobox. The article was once filled with all kinds of information, but it was all removed because it was considered promotional and its contributor was considered a COI editor. --JBC3 (talk) 22:43, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I didnt realize you had done that, that's pretty cool thanks I had actually invested some effort prior to the whole COI editor fiasco and gave up hope after that. JBC3 those subjects are the same ones I work on as well and what brought me here too. If there are any articles that you work on that could use an extra hand or articles you think need someone but you are too busy to get to right now let me know and I'd be happy to help out. I've started a list on the Capital District wikiproject talk page of CD related articles (mostly geographic and municipal) that dont have anyone currently working on them and they've stalled out at stubs or c-class.Camelbinky (talk) 00:23, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

COI tag in article

I am removing the COI tag on the article, which states "A major contributor to this article appears to have a conflict of interest with its subject. It may require cleanup to comply with Wikipedia's content policies, particularly neutral point of view. Please discuss further on the talk page. (December 2008)"

Could the original placement of that tag be explained. If that is just about the fact that there is disagreement about whether Siena should be described as being in Colonie, or Loudonville, or somewhere else, the COI tag is not appropriate. It suggests to readers that there are major problems with accuracy of all information in the article. Also, that would give too much credit to the persons quibbling about hamlets; I would want to see evidence that any one of them is a "major contributor". doncram (talk) 23:51, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe this was regarding the previous version of the article. See history of the article from a couple weeks ago and note the extreme difference in size. Most was cleared due to an assumed COI. I had nothing to do with it, so I can't offer any more detail. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 23:58, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Looks to me like the COI is no longer an issue. --hippo43 (talk) 00:00, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

(ec, twice) Thanks. Yes I didn't at first see the previous Talk above about someone possibly associated with the university. From the Talk page discussion alone, i was just now evaluating that it looks like this was cleared up. Further with your view that the article has been revised, I will proceed to remove the tag. If someone has more knowledge about the details of this article and thinks it is appropriate to restore it, go ahead. It would be nice if you could explain, and please provide evidence of major contributions by any COI editor remaining in the article. Also, by the way, COI policy does not mean that someone from the university cannot edit this article. They are welcome to edit here, but they should follow wp:COI guidelines (to disclose their connection, to defer to non-COI editors, to discuss rather than get into edit wars). BTW, relating to sources in the ridiculous debate about location, it was noted in the previous COI discussion that Peterson's largely reports what it is provided from the university. doncram (talk) 00:04, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I was "around" for this problem of the COI and though I didnt get involved this is basically what I "saw" though mostly its covered in the discussion way above- an editor with the name siena in his/her user name claimed to be a part of the PR department and said they could waive copyright for pictures and such. Information started piling onto the article (I never checked if it was from this user or not) that looked like a copyright violation and a copy/paste job from official Siena sources. The copy vio problem I believe is what led to the deletion of the article. You can read above about how another person claiming to truly represent the college then said that they hadnt been involved but would like to help clean up the article, and the resulting explanation to them that individuals of the PR department could but the department itself could not have an account. blah blah blah. I dont think that really adds anything new that isnt probably above, but it did cause alot of confusion with the article for awhile.24.182.142.254 (talk) 00:23, 27 March 2009 (UTC) Sorry, forgot to sign in first. This was meCamelbinky (talk) 00:32, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I noticed this discussion when someone pointed out the edit war that was going on. A "COI" tag should only be used in the most extreme of circumstances (notably when an article is being deleted and the only supporter for keeping it has a clear COI). I don't believe that the above explanation duly supports the need for a COI tag. Bastique ^demandez 01:34, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Noted, although just so it's clear, this topic is not the subject of the current edit war. --JBC3 (talk) 01:50, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

Mid-Hudson Valley hamlet names

Having lived in the Mid-Hudson Valley for about 15 years, and drawn a map book for the East Fishkill Fire District I can say a few things about so-called "hamlets".

• As previously mentioned, they are neighborhoods with no official boundaries.
• People in conversation seldom say the word "hamlet"; only during a discussion of local politics, when it is important to distinguish legally established towns and villages from unofficial neighborhoods and hamlets do the words come up.
• The area was long agricultural, with clusters of buildings here and there; the hamlet names originally applied to the clusters of buildings, and not to the farm land in between.
• Post offices and service areas of volunteer fire companies are not reliable guides to what local residents consider to be the rough boundaries of hamlets, because post office and fire company boundaries are determined in part by extraneous factors such as what pieces of land were available at a reasonable price when the facilities were built, or which bridges are not sturdy enough for a fire engine to cross. --Jc3s5h (talk) 03:35, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

This discussion has, as far as I'm aware, been declared over. But thank you for your contribution. I do however politely disagree with your interpretation as to what a hamlet is as you defined it as a "neighborhood" as some hamlets (such as Latham, New York have many many neighborhoods, as many as some cities. Many hamlets have become CDP's. The city of Albany started as a hamlet next to Fort Orange, Troy started as a hamlet, even the city of New York did. Though people dont often use the word hamlet in conversation they often do use the term "village" for an unincorporated village (ie-hamlet), its just semantics and nit-picking. A hamlet, rather than being described as a neighborhood it is better to simply describe them as they are more properly called- an unincorporated village; a village that has chosen to not have a government. No one would claim an incorporated village is in fact the same as a neighborhood of a city. Though incorporated villages have become neighborhoods of larger cities. Lansingburg in Troy and Arbor Hill in Albany both were incorporated villages first then annexed to larger cities and now treated as neighborhoods. As you are from downstate (from the Capital District's viewpoint though perhaps not by your own, I hope you take no offence, semantics again) hamlets may have gotten blurred due to the heavy development you experience so close to the City. Many, if not the majority, of neighborhoods in NYC were at one time hamlets (most famous would probably be Harlem) and now ARE neighborhoods. As I mentioned before Latham is one hamlet that has been given official boundaries thanks to signs put up by NYSDOT (even though one can argue that the signs arent at any official boundaries the fact that it is a state department putting signs and declaring them to be boundaries makes them official after the fact). Many towns, including the town of Colonie (which is the place we are talking about) does put signs mentioning what hamlet you are entering if the hamlet is at a town border with another municipality (ie- if you enter the town from Albany the town sign mentions what hamlet you are also entering, whether West Albany, Roessleville, or Loudonville), so in a way they are recognized and the word hamlet is used on the official town signs and on the official Colonie website, not the term neighborhood. I agree with your fire department statements but see no relevance here, as no one ever mentioned anything about fire departments. Most of us in the argument are locals (many of my friends went to Siena College) so we already know what the locals roughly consider Newtonville to be. The problem was that it was sooooo on the edge either way in local opinion along with the fact that officially it was in one hamlet that some did not agree with. Well anyway, if you want to discuss hamlets definition we can do that on our talk pages.Camelbinky (talk) 22:19, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Loudonville, or, are you guys high?

I can't claim to have read everything above, but what I've read makes this a candidate for WP:LEW. If the school's website says the school is in Loudonville, and other reliable sources agree, the article should say that the college is located in Loudonville. If it's only by doing your own sleuthing that you can claim the school is in Newtonville, that's WP:OR, and that should not go in the article. Seems pretty simple to me. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

What does being high have to do with anything? If you want people to take you seriously and consider what you contribute, try leaving off the unconstructive, inflamatory section headers. --JBC3 (talk) 21:12, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Yea! I was drunk, not high! Cheers! ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 22:00, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

JBC3, Instead of taking offence, you could address the point. 'Are you high?' is a fairly mild (and legitimate) expression of amazement at our discussion above. You haven't been swayed by references to reliable sources and policy so far, so who would assume that that approach might work on you now? --hippo43 (talk) 22:47, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Hippo43, are you blind or just have a problem with comprehension? Instead of taking offense, address the point. That's a fairly mild (and legitimate) expression of amazement at your lack of understanding that I already sided with you and the sources on this one. I'll repost this for you. The more I think about it, though, what seems to be a strong determinant as to where a hamlet is and what it includes, is that "Residents of a hamlet often identify themselves more closely with the hamlet than with the town." (from Administrative divisions of New York#Hamlet --not intended as sourcing, just so you know where the quote is from). I agree with that statement, and that most residents of Siena College identify themselves more closely with the hamlet of Loudonville than with the town of Colonie, irrespective of the fact that they may or may not technically be considered within the historical understanding of the hamlet. --JBC3 (talk) 02:40, 27 March 2009 (UTC) --JBC3 (talk) 15:50, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Apologies, JBC3, was frustrated and roped you in with others' points of view. My mistake. --hippo43 (talk) 16:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Feel free to change it to "willfully obtuse" if you like. The point being, some of the posters in the ridiculously long discussion above seem to be ignoring the basic points that reliable sources overwhelmingly say that the school is in Loudonville, and the ingenious arguments that it's actually in Newtonville are obvious WP:OR. And, you know, it is pretty amazing to see such a long discussion on one of the more trivial points of information in this article. --Akhilleus (talk) 23:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I believe the problem is that many of us dont believe as "reliable" some of the sources claimed as "reliable" such as college brochures and books that are lists of information about colleges (many of them admit in their fine print the information is taken straight from the college itself and not independently researched). Also some of us believe the college may have a COI as it is to their benefit to claim Loudonville as opposed to anything else, that bias is shown in that they use the name Loudonville with the same ZIP code that other places who use that ZIP code tend to use the name Albany and Albany is the OFFICIAL (according to the USPS, this isnt my opinion) city name for that ZIP code. We simply wanted the article to show there was debate or conflict or that it just wasnt 100% certain that the college truly was in Loudonville as opposed to Newtonville. Our sources proved that. To take a business' word for it that it truly is located where it is, is ridiculous. What used to be Mapinfo (now Pitney Bowles something or other division) always listed itself as being in Troy, New York, it even had a Troy address so did the RPI tech park it was located in. According to you it would then be in the Troy article, but it is really in the town of North Greenbush, New York, and there was a SHORT argument in the Troy article, luckily the editors there had no problem with actually looking at a map and saying "wow, it IS in the town" and no one said "oh no that's OR!" Looking at a map isnt OR its commonsense. Making a map is OR. Anyways, this discussion has been ended for a week now. I have removed the template asking for comments. Move along especially if you have nothing NEW to contribute. WE ARE DONE, YOU WON BY DEFAULT BECAUSE WE GAVE UP. The way it looks right now under the edit protection is the very least we were hoping for and would be happy with. What is wrong with its current version?Camelbinky (talk) 04:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC) also- yes, I'm normally high when I go on wikipedia because otherwise I wouldnt be able to laugh and deal with idiots who go to articles about things and places they dont know about and have never been to but think they know so much because a website told them something. I literally went by the college two days after I was born when I was brought home from Albany Med on Thanksgiving Day, and continued to go by the college most days of my life until I was 26 and needed to move to Missouri to start my masters degree at MU (which made it farther in the NCAA tournament than Siena did btw). And to the person in the section above this one who stated their credentials as to knowing about what hamlets are due to having drawn a map for a fire department and having lived in the mid-hudson valley for 15 years (which might mean something if where we are talking about was in the mid-hudson valley instead of being in the Capital District)- my credentials are that I have a degree from Univ at Albany in poli sci, minor in history, after that I continued to take courses in Urban Planning and Geography and got GIS certified and am now finishing up my masters in poli sci. So, I do know something about unincorporated villages and making maps. Oh, and I actually lived in the county we are talking about. Camelbinky (talk) 05:23, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

What's wrong with the current version? It should say that the college is located in Loudonville, just as every reliable source says. The wording "The college describes itself as being in Loudonville, a hamlet in the town" is designed to cast doubt upon whether it is located in Loudonville or not. --Akhilleus (talk) 13:57, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Agree. "...is in Loudonville" or "...is located in Loudonville" are the only reasonable options according to the sources. --hippo43 (talk) 16:20, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

If you're going to insist on having Loudonville listed as the site of the college then just use the Siena website and remove the Peterson citation since it cant be considered a reliable source when it says Siena College is a "quiet campus" located in the "small town" of Loudonville. We've been through this- Loudonville is not a town, the town that Loudonville is in (Colonie, New York) is not by any means small since its population-wise its larger than most cities (over 85,000; making it the second largest incorporated municipality in the Capital District); and the campus isnt quiet since it sits right on a major thoroughfare (US Route 9 in New York) and sits within an urbanized area. Do we have to have a freakin argument over what road the college sits on, how busy it is, what is an urbanized area and is the college in it, and is Loudonville a town and if not is it really in the town of Colonie or can we please just get rid of a silly reference that is not reliable?Camelbinky (talk) 14:58, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

It's a reliable source, per WP:RS. You aren't. It seems to be using a general definition of 'town', not the New York-specific, administrative, pedantic meaning that you have attached to the word. If you're not clear on what 'town' means in the real world, please look in a dictionary. --hippo43 (talk) 15:14, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

No, Camelbinky is right: a town and a hamlet are different. A town is incorporated and a hamlet is not. You shouldn't ignore New York State law just because of a general definition. If the college website says "...located in Loundonville...", go with it. The generality of the statement is on our side because a statement that it is located in "the town of Loudonville" is not factually correct. I know we're for V not truth, but this is well documented and adding factually incorrect sources is not in Wikipedia's best interest. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 15:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree with hippo43 that Peterson's is an RS, and that it's using the word "town" in an ordinary-language sense rather than some legalistic definition--the same way I can say that San Francisco is a cool town. However, the College's website is a sufficient reference for the fact that the campus is in Loudonville, so I've removed the Peterson's citation. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I understand that it may have been using town as a generic term, but if you were to find a source that says "San Francisco is a cool town" and then used that source to reference a sentence that says "San Francisco is a cool town" putting that in the SF article, I can guarentee you that it would be removed per NPOV so I dont see how that analogy works. But thank you for removing the reference.Camelbinky (talk) 01:02, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Loudonville and unreliable sources

(The following was posted by me but deleted by Hippo43. I am astounded, if Hippo43 means to edit war on the Talk page. Hippo, please clarify. doncram (talk) 15:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC))

I don't want to wade through or post in the section with "are you high" in its title. The article has been revised back to include an unreliable reference that has previously been discussed. I think it would be appropriate to revert to the previous version that was edit-protected for five days, and for edit-protection to be restored if edit warring continues. It is not debatable whether the college is in Colonie and that the college describes itself as being in Loudonville. The repeated insistence on including non-independent college guidebook references on Loudonville being a town, which it is NOT, or on other matters is not helpful. I am going to revert to the previous version. I suggest that dicussion happen here. If there was valid, on-topic discussion in the "are you high" section I apologize; if so please discuss here again. doncram (talk) 15:09, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

It's not debatable that reliable sources tell us that the college is in Loudonville, either. It's a bit silly to ignore talk page sections because you don't like their titles. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't know if it is silly or not to want to dissociate from potentially offensive section titles. It is indeed debatable about whether the college guidebook sources are reliable on this point, as proven by considerable debate already. As previously discussed, the guidebooks recapitulate what they are told by colleges, and sometimes they embellish or get it wrong, notably as the Peterson's guidebook does. There has been plenty and extensive discussion about this already. In discussion section about the most neutral default version, above, JBC3 and Wadester16 both agreed with the language that i recently restored, and which Akhilleus reverted away from. I think that it is fair to say the previously discussed version remains the consensus view as a fair and neutral version to restore and keep in the article. doncram (talk) 15:32, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Doncram - deleted by accident when I replied to Camelbinky above - you must have submitted your edit just as I hit 'edit this page.' Apologies.

The edit-protected version was your version, not some neutral version that everyone agreed on. It was not reached by consensus here or endorsed by the admin who protected the page. My most recent version, which was largely accepted by editors in the discussion above, was not edit-warring. Your revert was. Since the page was edit-protected, there has been more discussion here and here

If you truly consider that reference unreliable because of its use of the word 'town', I will remove it. There are any number of others to replace it. To call these sources non-independent is spurious. No source is independent to someone who wants to discredit it. These sources are reliable per WP:RS - your own opinion isn't. Perhaps you could save us some trouble by looking through the many reliable sources available online and let us know which ones you do cinsider independent? The sources are clear that Siena is in Loudonville - there is no need to be less specific by inserting Colonie - it is a false compromise. I am going to reinstate the version supported by sources. --hippo43 (talk) 15:41, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Do u mean to imply that the other version is not supported by sources? That would be false.

I note that Hippo43 asked at User talk:MBisanz#Siena College, again for an administrator to intervene in some way here. Surely that's a good step towards getting this page edit-protected again. I thought we were going to try to avoid that.

Anyhow, how about trying to resolve this, for a while, by a vote. I suggest we state two alternatives for the first sentence or two of the article, and run a vote for 48 hours, with rules that there be no canvassing outside, and that whichever version "wins" gets left in place for a month. It should only be obvious that a vote is going on to persons watchlisting this artice. After a month goes by, anyone can begin edit-warring or whatever. Hippo43, how about that? doncram (talk) 21:16, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Based on quick look at who has been saying what here, to even it up, i'm willing to give an extra 1.5 votes to Hippo43.  :) So if turnout was 3 votes for one version, 2 votes for Hippo43's version, then Hippo43 would get 2+1.5 =3.5, and win for 30 days. Willing to take a gamble on who is interested enough to vote here? Anyone new wandering in would likely get the power to swing it either way. doncram (talk) 21:24, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

What is your objection to resolving it using the sources and policy? Voting isn't going to solve anything, and Wikipedia is not a democracy.

The version you advocate is not supported by the sources, in that it is not an accurate reflection of the clear consensus among the sources - they say 'in Loudonville' not 'in Colonie'. It is a POV attempt to cast doubt on the college's version. 'In Loudonville' is the only reasonable solution according to the sources, the other proposed interpretations all fail WP:OR, WP:V and/or WP:NPOV. --hippo43 (talk) 22:35, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Please don't take my offer to have a vote here as an indication that I think wikipedia is a democracy, I do not. I was trying to give you a sporting chance, just trying to be nice. Let's discuss it some more simply on the merits, then. The version that I support is neutral and descriptive, and not POV, and it is supported by sources. The version in the article right now, which you prefer, actually indicates POV-ness: it includes an argumentative footnoote interrupting the first sentence. The footnote itself suggests that there must be some issue. The footnote is not just a source, it provides a quote, apparently to bolster an argument, suggesting there is something to argue about. If it were a simple fact that the place was in a town named Loudonville or whatever, then there would be no footnote at all in the first sentences. Simple factual matters don't need quotes or even sources. You have invested a huge amount of energy in defending having argumentative-style footnotes included into this article. Also, you seem to be invested in putting in argumentative-style footnotes in order to stake a position against mention of the other hamlet, whatever it is called. That is inappropriate to show in the article. You can stake whatever position you want about that here on the Talk page. I think the consensus previously was that the five-day frozen version was neutral and fair, and the consensus has not changed. I don't believe you have added any new arguments, you have just repeated yourself. I'll give u some time to respond, then probably restore the previous version. doncram (talk) 01:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Doncram- I actually put the vote as 5-2 (you, me, daniel case, wadester, and JBC3).

Hippo, or hippo junior (cant remember your friend's name, no insult) are you seriously saying that now you dont believe that the college is in the town of Colonie? I know you consider it to be original research (I dont though) but LOOK AT A MAP! If a location said on its website that it is in Harlem, Flushing, or Brooklyn Heights, does that mean that the article on that location cant say its in NYC even though (I hope!) we can all agree those locations are in the City? (and to tie it all together all three of those locations used to be hamlets!) I would use an analogy from wherever you are from, but I dont know that, even though I know where doncram, JBC3, wadester, and daniel case are all from...On a personal note- I'm still wondering just what info you said you were looking for when you came to this article and started this all...you asked me once my motives for being so involved, I answered. You told me that you didnt find the info but later found it elsewhere and didnt put it in the article after you found it because the info "was not notable" or encyclopedic whatever way you worded it. So...if the info wasnt encyclopedic or notable why did you think it would be in the article in the first place? (from your contributions it seems you think very highly of your ability to make that judgement on others info alot) I still havent seen any real editing of this article by your or your companion. So please tell me why you care so much about the difference between Loudonville and now Colonie and what the info you came here for. It really puts your credibility at issue. Those who got involved on this side of the issue are all from the Capital District wikiproject that covers this college and/or from the Capital District (except doncram, he's an honorary member of the project, he's been through the hazing ritual). We've been very forthcoming and open about any prejudice or inside knowledge we might have on the issue.Camelbinky (talk) 01:29, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Camelbinky - have you read this? The knowledge that matters here is what is in the sources. --hippo43 (talk) 01:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Doncram, there was no consensus for the version you wrote. It distorts the sources by qualifying the college's statement. I have no interest in having footnotes supporting Loudonville - they are only there because a handful of editors want to insert a wording that is not supported by sources, so I put the footnotes in to justify using the sourced version. I think it's patently obvious that there is something, however small, to be argued about.

Your version was not an accurate reflection of the obvious consensus among the sources - you didn't include a reference for the college being in Colonie, nor say that "Source X describes the college as being in Colonie", as you did with the college itself, and you did not say "The college describes itself, as do numerous other reliable sources, as being in Loudonville". There are plenty of sources available which state unequivocally that "Siena is in Loudonville." I haven't expended energy to defend keeping footnotes in the article - I have expended energy defending the wording that the sources support. I have repeated myself because my argument is very simple, and strong. I don't need complicated arguments. If you revert to a version that is not consistent with policy and the published reliable sources, I will respond predictably. --hippo43 (talk) 01:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh, well, I didnt count on everyone ever involved voting, esp. not Daniel as not nec. his style, and his role with the RFC included trying to open a discussion neutrally.

Further I have followed Hippo43's provided links to discussions opened by Hippo43 and Akhilleus at

• Wikipedia:RSN#Siena_College_sources and at
• Wikipedia:No_original_research/noticeboard#Siena_College.27s_location.2C_and_maps

It seems like Hippo43 was shopping around to try to get votes, already, before I proposed a vote. :) Since this is already an RFC discussion, I don't think it is necessarily appropriate to try to get the wikipedia community's attention in new forums, but the discussions are open, anyhow. I chimed in at one of them. I interpret the latter discussion to be supporting the idea that any assertion of the boundaries of Loudonville or Newtonville would be speculation or original research, since there seems to be no available good definition of those hamlets. What seems neutral and correct is to say that the college is located in Colonie, which does have known boundaries, and to say that the college describes itself as being in Loudonville. I don't believe it is acceptable to say simply that the college is in Loudonville, because there is no way to verify that, as there is no definition of Loudonville available. I suppose a there could be an alternative which stated the college describes itself as being in Loudonville, and that Loudonville is accepted by the U.S. Post office as a location name without defining what it is, and perhaps goes on to talk for several sentences about what Loudonville might have been in the past, etc., could conceivably be objective, but that would give undue weight to the issue of location in this article about the college. doncram (talk) 01:46, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

You seem to be saying that we get to decide here what the sources mean when they say "in Loudonville". You are trying to qualify their statements by introducing straw men - postal addresses, hamlet boundaries etc. The sources are clear enough - "in Loudonville". The obvious and easy way to verify the statement is by referencing reliable sources, per WP:V. --hippo43 (talk) 01:59, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Can I end this section by asking if Doncram is high? Seriously, that's an astonishing bit of Wikilawyering. Siena's website says the campus is in Loudonville, other sources say the campus is in Loudonville, and no one has presented a source that says clearly and unequivocally that Siena is not in Loudonville. Yet Doncram says that he doesn't think it's "acceptable to say simply that the college is in Loudonville, because there is no way to verify that, as there is no definition of Loudonville available." So, when Siena's website says that it's "located in Loudonville, New York," it is unacceptable to take this at face value. This is bizarre, to say the least. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:27, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Response to Hippo43: Where I am coming from, is from working on NRHP-listed places around the United States. It becomes clear to me that it is useful for the wikipedia to be really precisely factual, to provide really valid location information, which is not the purpose of the college guidebooks. The idea that the college is in Loudonville is a loose one. I am familiar with a building in NYC, i think called Park Avenue Plaza, whose management claims it to be on Park Avenue, when it is not, it is the 2nd parcel in along some street. A thousand copies of their printed notices, or repetitions elsewhere in directories, would not change what wikipedia should write: wikipedia should state where it is, factually, using the wikipedia-defined terms of towns, etc. For Siena College, the wikipedia article adds information, by being the factual source about where it is located. It is in the town of Colonie. Fluff about undefined hamlets can be mentioned, carefully, as in saying that the college describes itself as being in Loudonville, but the only location we have factually verifiable is that it is in Colonie. Hmm, for another type of example: there are many NRHP-listed places for which the National Register itself has an error in its spelling of the town name or another type of location error. If we find that out, and have a reliable source as to the correct location, we correct the wikipedia entry to state the correct name/location (and, by the way, we also report the error to the National Register). The wikipedia article is stating the truth. But, there exist multiple "reliable" sources which state the incorrect info: the NRIS database, plus many mirror sites of the NRIS database (including www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com, for one). The incorrect information may appear in more "reliable" sources than the correct information appears in. But we know it to be wrong, and we use simple judgment to choose to have the wikipedia report the correct information. In the Siena College case, the factual information to provide to the public, which adds value, is to give its true location in Colonie, and to share, further, that the college describes itself as being in Loudonville. The wikilink to Loudonville, New York should provide the location-interested reader with more information about how Loudonville is not exactly a well-defined area, that it can be asserted to include Siena College or not, etc, where it is described on old maps, etc. It is not truly verifiable to assert that Siena College is in Loudonville, because Loudonville is amorphous. The neutral wording doesn't go into all of that: it provides what is factual. You seem to be arguing for something not strictly factual. Doing a lot of that would tend to make wikipedia into a rumor-reporting mill, not a definitive source of factual information. doncram (talk) 02:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Response to Akhileous: No, wikipedia editors do not, should not, take non-factual information at face value. We have a systematic way of describing where places are located, and it provides value to the public to use it. doncram (talk) 02:48, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Doncram, there are any number of sources which state that Siena is in Loudonville. Some of the arguments in this discussion are trying to qualify, without evidence, what these sources mean - 'they have clearly copied the college's PR blurb', 'they must mean the postal address', 'they obviously mean the historic boundaries of the hamlet', 'perhaps they mean the fire district' etc. These are all spurious - we simply need to report what the sources say and leave it at that. Who are you to decide what is factual? If the sourced information is wrong, then there should be reliable sources which refute it, and they could be included. Your argument above was simply an argument for original research. From WP:NOR: "Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, or arguments." --hippo43 (talk) 03:00, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

You seem not to be reading what i write, or you seem to be just throwing up arguments for the sake of arguing. Argue all you want about what Loudonville is, in the Talk page to its article. What is factual or not can and should be discussed on Talk pages, and that should inform editorial decisions about to say in articles that is both true and supported by sources. The neutral wording that I prefer for this article about Siena College is to say it is in Colonie and that the college describes it as being in Loudonville. There is no original research, no opinions, no personal experience in that. You lose credibility in my view, when you suggest, falsely, that I am trying to put original research into this article. doncram (talk) 03:18, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Your opinion and personal expression come in when you wish to insert that "sources say..." - this is not necessary, and not NPOV - it is an obvious attempt to cast doubt on the sources, placing your own view as more important than the sources themselves. Wikipedia is based on verifiablitity, not truth, and that is a useful principle in exactly these situations. Qualifying the sources, when there is no real disagreement among them, to assert what you believe to be true is clearly original research. --hippo43 (talk) 03:37, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) What are you talking about? What I want this article to say is exactly as before:

Siena College is an independent Catholic Liberal Arts College in the town of Colonie in Albany County, New York, United States. The college describes itself as being in Loudenville, a hamlet in the town.

with one footnote:

Or, with more discussion now, I would actually prefer to drop the quote from the footnote. If you are referring to a recent edit by me at the Loudonville, New York article, let's discuss that its talk page. But in this conversation, here, it is nonsensical to assert that I am trying to insert original research, and it is further false to assert that I am trying to insert commentary about "sources say" anything, confusing the location for readers. To the contrary, I am trying both to avoid falsehoods and to avoid suggesting dispute to the readers. (It may be relevant to discuss some differences among sources in the article about Loudonville itself, due to the squishy nature of that hamlet, but that's a matter to discuss at its Talk page.) Please read what i have said and show me, precisely, what you think is original research in what i state, where personal opinion comes in. I suspect you are just arguing out of momentum: you had some success in arguing against mention of Newtonville, and you just continue arguing against anything and everything else. You are not making sense to me. doncram (talk) 04:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I realise you want it to say what it said before, and I disagree. I'm not referring to anything on the Loudonville page. By saying "the college describes itself as in Loudonville" rather than "Siena is in Loudonville", which is what numerous sources actually say, you are adding your own POV to the sources' words, and obviously suggesting there is a dispute over it. There is no dispute among the sources. According to multiple sources, the college is in Loudonville - it's really simple. You are trying to determine what is true/factual, rather than going with what is verified - that is OR. If you genuinely don't understand why qualifying this statement with "the college describes itself as.." is not appropriate, I don't think I can help you. Please stop claiming that your preferred version represents consensus here - it's getting tiresome. --hippo43 (talk) 05:11, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying that you are not referring to the Loudonville page. It would further help advance discussion here, if you would occasionally make concessions when you can, such as to say "Excuse me, I was wrong to assert that you were inserting the term 'sources say'...". I will look for opportunities to agree with you, or to concede when I have been shown to be wrong. But I don't think you are correct about it being OR to try to sort out, in the Talk page, what is true and factual, and then to use that to guide what is selected to put into the article. This same point came up in one or both of the other discussions you pointed me to, and which I went and read through. Others disagree with you about the usefulness of discussing what the truth is or not, elsewhere, and I disagree with you here, now. Please consider: if the rule was wikipedia had to state everything that was verifiable (reported somewhere), then what would you do about situations where sources that are generally reliable, disagree? Such as when NRIS and www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com report something erroneous, and you know from private correspondence which cannot be used as an explicit source that NRIS is being corrected, and there is or is not another source reports the correct information. We are not robots, compelled to report the incorrect information. We don't have to report that there are invalid sources out there, either. We can just report what is obviously true, perhaps with no reference if it is really obvious, or with a reference that is correct. Why don't you paste in, here, a different sentence or two that you propose, and show your preferred footnote, for explicit discussion and comparison.

Your comment over at Talk:Loudonville, New York, in which you seem to want to assert that Loudonville is now a town now, is really going backwards. It is rather depressing that there you have just edit warred to restore the Peterson reference which has been discussed here as being incorrect in its implication that Loudonville is a town. You challenge me there to find a reference saying Loudonville is not a town. That is getting absurd. You know it is not a town. If you want to assert that it is a town, then we are really done here. doncram (talk) 06:05, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

As I understand it, when sources that are generally reliable disagree, as they often do, we include all major points of view in proportion to the coverage they receive in reliable sources. I'm sorry that I wasn't clear - I didn't mean that you were looking to insert those exact words.

My suggestion is that we say "the college is located in Loudonville ..." followed by any combination of "in the town of Colonie / Albany County / New York / USA". My own preference is for less rather than more - I would go for "Loudonville, New York, USA", as it can start looking ridiculous, but if others prefer more detail I don't mind. To me, it is obvious that the sources are clear. It's not just the college, it's a raft of reliable sources all saying the same thing. We don't need to qualify it in any way. I would prefer no footnotes, because as you intimated, a detail like this should not really need a source. However, if it is to remain contentious, then I think we will need some. Perhaps one ref that cites a specific source, then more sources listed subsew=quently in the footnote only.

Trying to establish 'facts' on the talk page to avoid simply following the sources is OR to me. In this case, nobody has established that Siena is not in Loudonville using sources, or, for me, cast any real doubt on it. If this was blatantly inaccurate I would agree that we find an alternative, but I would want to use sources in that case too. I can't think of an acceptable change in wording that you would consider a compromise. I am, however, open to proposals. --hippo43 (talk) 07:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Voting vs. consensus

Figured this would be relevant to those involved in disputes here:
--from {{subst:uw-notvote}}
Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your comments. Please note that on Wikipedia, consensus is determined by discussion, not voting, and it is the quality of arguments that counts, not the number of people supporting a position. Consider reading about the deletion policy for a brief overview for the deletion process, and how we decide what to keep and what to delete. We hope you decide to stay and contribute even more. Thank you! --JBC3 (talk) 04:34, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! You understand, I hope, that my suggestion of voting was meant in a light-hearted way. If Hippo43 and others had agreed to abide by a vote, then i do think it would have been okay for us to let the article's appearance for one month to be set by that. But, if anyone objected (as Hippo43 did), the voting proposal was off. I wonder if we should try to learn what we can from this experience. I think several of us are stuck on what to do in wikipedia, when you feel that there is one person who is being obstinate, and edit warring. It seems that Hippo43 is thinking i am being obstinate, and vice versa. How is the quality of arguments supposed to be determined then? I guess i would like to get some benefit of learning from this experience, because the simple fact of how Siena's location is described in this article is really not that important. It must be some principle or something that is at stake. doncram (talk) 06:14, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I think you and I both like to play this game (arguing, voting, wikilawyering, tag teaming) - it might not exactly be trolling, but it's not far off. We both got involved in this argument after it started. We really had no stake in it originally, yet we have carried it on with gusto, and it has now spilled over onto several other pages. You're right that this is a trivial matter, and just look at the energy that has gone into it. Dr Phil would insist we are getting some sort of pay-off from it. My guess is you came across the argument and thought 'who the f>ck is hippo43 and why is he being so stubborn?' so you decided to took the opposite side. That's probably what I would have done.

Also, for me at least, I really dislike badly referenced articles on Wikipedia. When I came across this one there was a really trivial 'dispute' documented in the text. I wanted to find out what the sources said - they said Loudonville, not Newtonville, so of course I have been obstinate about it. The answer is so obvious, as Akhilleus has pointed out, that there's no really acceptable compromise. There have been all kinds of attempts to justify alternatives, and I really don't understand why. Wikipedia is meant to be based on reliable sources, not the unsupported opinions if editors, so I don't see any alternative here - it is a very small matter, and a very clear correct outcome. To be honest, I don't think you really disagree. --hippo43 (talk) 08:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I appreciate the tone of your last remarks here and above. I have to go now, and may not be able to comment tomorrow, but actually i have quite a bit to share about your concerns about wikipedia principles of synthesis and OR and obligation to report on conflict btwn sources, etc. I could share some stories about situations that that helped me to understand limitations of these important policies, and where actual practices differ, for good reasons, at high levels within wikipedia editing. Also i will go read up on whatever trolling is, per some side discussion at my Talk page, though it sounds like maybe no one is actually doing that after all. Anyhow, good night. doncram (talk) 09:04, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Moving forward?

This has been going on for at least 12 days now, and it is obviously very lame. Does anyone have a suggestion for how to move forward and reach some kind of agreement? I have updated the article with the actual wording of the college's source, though I'm sure some here won't like it. --hippo43 (talk) 09:08, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

How about leaving it at the town of Colonie?! That is the political subdivision in which the college sits. There is no dispute on that.Camelbinky (talk) 17:24, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

The objection to that is that it's not consistent with the sources. They say Loudonville - the only dispute is here. I really don't think anyone comes here wondering 'in which political subdivision does Siena sit?'--hippo43 (talk) 09:24, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe it's time to try Wikipedia:Requests for mediation, since the discussion here is bogged down and posts to WP:RSN and WP:NORN don't seem to have settled things. --Akhilleus (talk) 15:58, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

One problem with only mentioning Colonie is that mail addressed that way may have a hard time reaching the college, and most people reading the article will be students sending in applications. I did a zip code lookup for "515 Loudon Rd, Colonie NY" and it failed. The same address with Loudonville, Siena, and even Albany succeeded. It should say Loudonville, a village within the town of Colonie. The college and its neighbors on three sides have always used Loudonville. The confusion came because the tiny hamlet of Newtonville begins immediately after the campus, with Newtonville public buildings kitty-cornered vs. the college entrance. But every source says the college is in Loudonville. I put a new section up on RSN questioning the use of online maps for fine detail, and examining the address issues. Squidfryerchef (talk) 17:59, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I am 1000% sure that the U.S. Post Office would deliver mail to Siena College that is addressed to Colonie. But no one is saying not to mention Loudonville; I don't think any proposal has said we should not mention Loudonville. doncram (talk) 21:47, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

The official Siena website DOES say it is in the town of Colonie, you need to check the website more than just looking at the homepage. And please dont start using the word "village" or "town" or anything but HAMLET when referring to Loudonville! It is not a town, it is not a village. Those are distinct INCORPORATED terms in the state of NY, and NO it is not a "common-use term" to refer to it as such IN NEW YORK. Those of us in this area we are talking about know the difference and no one refers to Loudonville as a village. This is where the problem starts, people bringing in their own OR on what type a community is. Its not just the side that is pro-Colonie that is being OR in their point of view. Wikipedia is not a guidebook or a college brochure that helps students determine what college to go to or how to mail them, that is specifically in the official wikipedia guidelines on what "wikipedia is not"! As for ZIP code even hippo keeps saying ZIP codes have nothing to do with it. And if we are going to get technical about the name of the ZIP code is then we have to put the address of the college as ALBANY, NY; that is the only OFFICIAL CITY NAME according to the USPS and they are the ONLY ones that get to decide that, Loudonville and Siena are only "acceptable alternatives" that is not OR on my part, that is official word of a part of the US Federal Government the United States Postal Service, the same government service that has been around since day one of our country's existence and once run by Ben Franklin himself. If this source isnt legitimate than delete all of wikipedia because nothing else is. This bull of there being no sources that mention Newtonville or a controversy is stupid, I dont care if you consider them to not be reliable, fine dont mention them in the article but they show that there is a dispute and that Loudonville is not the definitive place the college is in. Epodunk.com, the "advertisement" in New York (the magazine) which is not OR to say it was placed by the college since who other than the college would be having people mail to the college for summer classes?! USE COMMONSENSE, commonsense is not OR; if we couldnt use commonsense in real life no one would get above a 70 on an IQ test. The blog by a native of this area in the Times Union website. You can say looking at multiple maps is OR but use it as commonsense with everything else. This is ridiculous, the northern 1/3 of the campus isnt even in the Loudonville/Albany/Siena ZIP code anyways, its in the Latham ZIP code (which btw has Newtonville as an acceptable alternative name). Camelbinky (talk) 20:48, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

It was fine to try, but the posts to WP:RSN and WP:NORN didn't help much because they did not set out the issues recently discussed here accurately, IMO (they were posed in terms of the previous Newtonville discussion). I think there's some room for progress here though. Hippo43 has shared his perspective a bit more constructively recently, and I think i can see that he really does feel it is obvious that emphasis should be on saying the college is in Loudonville, because that's what the college says and there are many sources that say that. I guess I can see he is honest in that. He did offer somewhere here that some other expanded wording, that it is in Loudonville, in Colonie, in whatever county, could be okay by him. Some other wording than the current article wording or the one version that has been written into this page and discussed explicitly is possible. We seem to put different weight on various concerns, but his concerns are legitimate and I hope that with some rational discussion he will acknowledge some other concerns. He also needs to AGF and try to see where some others of us here are coming from.

For example, i think Hippo43 is honestly grappling with some wikipedia editing policy issues that I also had trouble with once, like about avoiding synthesis (quick comment, out of context: the issue with synthesis argument is that it refers to synthesis which is interpretative and pushing a political or other perspective; the anti-synthesis policy does not apply as much to factual, non-political-type situations), and like about relying upon sources. What to do when there are multiple sources saying something actually wrong, for example? And then what if they are just not being precise in the terms of the town location terminology that has become one of wikipedia's hallmarks. There is some judgement involved in where wikipedia editors go beyond the explicit policy statements, and use common sense as Camelbinky put it just now. On Hippo43's side, it is fair that we should discuss what is said in the exact policies and discuss where and how it is appropriate to go a bit beyond, or to handle tradeoffs between various policies and guidelines.

Looking at Hippo43's history of 2,000 or so contributions, it appears to me he hasn't been much involved in location articles/discussions, and/or does not appreciate the system of town and other location articles that has been built up in wikipedia. I do recall seeing some good mediating by User:Ruhrfisch regarding some cases in Ohio i think, that would be instructive, but I don't have good links to relevant discussions to share, however, right now. Hippo43 is not on board yet with the idea that wikipedia articles add value by describing locations very accurately and in precise terms. Pointing out good readings in this area should help.

Anyhow I think Hippo43's perspective, where he is coming from, is honestly different from that of others involved. Edit warring to force one perspective seems very unhelpful. But there would be room for progress by bringing each other up to speed in the other persons' perspectives. Also, I think Hippo43 is over-confident in arguing and warring here, because of the original discussion about Newtonville in which there were invalid arguments (mostly expressed by Camelbinky) that did involve original research. I suspect that made Hippo43 more personally dismissive of others' perspectives on more subtle matters, but that is not irreversible.

I'm not saying the only progress to be made is by making Hippo43 back down; there are others at fault here, including me, for not identifying more clearly our own perspectives and interpretations of policy and why we think the way we do, more clearly. Anyhow, that's a lot to say, and i am done for a while on this. doncram (talk) 21:47, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

I would like to point out that other than a few edits BEFORE the discussion began, which I requested in the first place, I have not resorted to editwarring. I have tried to present my views here and reach consensus (apparently I've been spelling that word wrong for the last two weeks, only one "c"). I've been willing to compromise, I dont mind Loudonville being mentioned, I would like the town of Colonie and for Newtonville to be both mentioned however. I dont like being called on one of the other many discussions on this topic the- anything but Loudonville group. That isnt what I have been trying to get across. The fact that there is several sources, even though they arent good enough for an article, that says Newtonville or puts a doubt on Loudonville should be enough to warrent something MORE than just Siena College is in Loudonville.Camelbinky (talk) 21:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

(Much later) To clarify, I didn't mean to suggest Camelbinky was "invalid" in any way with respect to his participation here. My word choice may have been harsh. I had the impression that earlier Camelbinky made some arguments in favor of saying that Siena College was in Newtonville which did not carry the day, so by "invalid" arguments that was all i meant, they didn't carry the day. I did not mean to imply that it was inappropriate for him to raise the idea and discuss it, and I have the impression that his participation throughout the discussion here has been entirely valid, including his willingness to concede eventually that the apparently available sources don't adequately support a flat statement that Siena College is in Newtonville. I didn't go back and look at his comments here and everywhere else this may have been discussed, before I joined in response to the RFC that was posted (which I saw mention of at Daniel Case's talk page). doncram (talk) 01:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Doncram, a fairly patronising contribution, IMO. So the crux of it is 'the sources say one thing, but we know better'? From WP:V - "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth—that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." Seems very clear to me. I also disagree with the premise that 'we know that 'in Loudonville' is false'.

Also, my reading of WP:SYNTH is more straight-forward, summed up by the first sentence "Do not put together information from multiple sources to reach a conclusion that is not stated explicitly by any of the sources." --hippo43 (talk) 22:44, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry you judge my comments and potential comments as patronizing. It makes it harder to talk with you.

Anyhow, the title of the section for wp:synth is "Synthesis of published material that advances a position". The current version written there does not much elaborate upon that, but the problem with synthesizing in wikipedia writing is if it advances a position. Meaning something that is an opinion and not factual. There does not need to be a source given for every summary statement. For example, Source A says there are 2 historic properties in a county and lists them; source B says there are 2 others and lists them. A wikipedian editor can fairly "synthesize" to list them explicitly and say there are at least 4 historic properties in the county. By listing them, you make it obvious. A key aspect is that there is no political controversy, no motivation to slant something one way or another, but you can just make an obvious statement and you do not need another source saying there are 4 historic properties in the county. It would be wrong to synthesize to come up with some statement that is in fact false. It would be wrong to synthesize to advance a political position. By the way, if you found some source to use for a footnote, then I would want not to use it anyhow, because it is only necessary to support with footnotes any facts which are unusual, unclear, controversial (paraphrasing from guidelines for use of sources in Featured articles). If the article was being reviewed for FA, an unnecessary footnote would get deleted. You're just getting your knickers in a twist, about seeking sources for every mere summary of obvious, factual information.

Also, the language of writing about places in wikipedia utilizes a big web of verified information that has been built up. I'll say this in a patronizing-type of tone. You don't seem to get that. It's okay, I don't believe you are creating articles about hamlets, towns, etc.; you just happen to have landed on this one issue here. In the U.S., every state, every county, probably every town (in the common and legal sense of the term) has an article. It provides a built-up vocabulary for saying where places are located. In the available vocabulary, it is clear that Siena College is in the town of Colonie, and that should be said. No one can contradict that. It is usual in articles about colleges to say what town and state they are in. Your preference is to say, instead, that it is Loudonville (something other than a town in the wikipedia vocabulary) because the college says it is in Loudonville and there are other sources which say the same, doesn't work within this framework. Loudonville is not a town in the wikipedia vocabulary, and it cannot be said that it is a town unless you go into qualifications to define what nonstandard sense it can be understood as being a town. Writing for wikpedia is different than writing for a college guidebook. One of the things we can do here is be very clear on the location of a place. The reasonable thing to do is to state simply that the college is in Colonie, New York, plus state the fact that the college describes itself as being in Loudonville, which is a hamlet. Your opposition to that is, after a while, unfathomable. I may watch for any quick response, but I'll probably be taking this and related articles off my watchlist shortly. It seems not worth the effort to try to have a real conversation here. doncram (talk) 01:08, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Your analysis of WP:SYNTH is strange, for someone so patronising about how things work here; to not state "Siena is in Loudonville" in this article would clearly be to advance a position that is not in the sources. WP:SYNTH does not exclude advancing positions which are fairly trivial or outlandish ("I'm a local and I know better than the sources", for example, or "Siena is lying about its location to appear more prestigious"), and does not specify a "political position" or "political controversy". Another one of the things we can do here is accurately reflect what reliable sources say - any variation of 'Siena is not in Loudonville' or 'Siena might not be in Loudonville' is a position that is not consistent with the sources.

I'm not "seeking sources for every mere summary of obvious, factual information." The sources don't need to be sought. The obvious factual (and, more importantly, verifiable) information is that Siena is in Loudonville.

As for your view on footnotes, I don't see how Featured Article guidelines are relevant here - if this is to become a FA, footnotes are the least of our worries. WP:Verifiability seems more critical in this case. Clearly this statement is contentious, given the 30,000+ words written about it, and the page has not been stable recently, so supporting footnote(s) are to be expected. The article is "very clear on the location of a place" - Siena is in Loudonville, and to not state as much would be less clear.

You don't seem to get it that comments like "You're just getting your knickers in a twist..." are patronising - that's okay. Your condescension just makes it harder to talk with you. It seems not worth the effort to try to have a real conversation. --hippo43 (talk) 06:05, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

• A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong gives it a superficial appearance of being right. Thomas Paine, just because sources say it's in L. does not make it true.Camelbinky (talk) 16:04, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

It certainly makes it verifiable, which is what matters. That quote could equally apply to your on belief on this. Given that you haven't found a source which states that Siena isn't in Loudonville, have you considered that your own understanding may be wrong? Are you honestly suggesting that all the reliable sources are wrong, including the college itself, but that you, a non-expert, unpublished Wikipedia editor are correct?

Aside from this conceit, if you disagree so strongly with the idea of verifiability, why do you even bother with Wikipedia? --hippo43 (talk) 20:49, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry but I no longer respond to off-topic questions or comments, this talk page is for discussing the article of Siena College not why I edit. As for finding sources that state Siena College is not in Loudonville I found plenty, you just didnt like them. Seeing as how this matter has been settled I dont see why you are continuing this discussion. I am taking this page off my watchlist. You won by default what is there to discuss? Rhetorical question.Camelbinky (talk) 22:59, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

So posting a quote from Thomas Paine was discussing this article's contents? --hippo43 (talk) 14:29, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Thoughts From a Local: As far as I've known, Siena College is in Newtonville, but uses a Loudonville address. Both of those hamlets are part of Colonie, NY. Now, I did some researc on the USPS website and found that by their map online, Siena College is in Loudonville: [2]. Is shows Newtonville going right over Siena College. You have to zoom in to see it say Siena College, but if you don't, Siena College's southern boundary is Spring Street. Loudonville is located near Menands Road, whereas Newtonville is the area from about Siena College up to the bottom of Latham, NY, or maybe Watervliet-Shaker Road/Route 155. The USPS website uses Microsoft Virtual Earth. I think the Loudonville Post Office is bigger, whereas the Newtonville one is just a small local one (I didn't even know Newtonville had one). Also, not too far up the road from Siena (about a 2-5 minute drive depending on the lights) is a place known as Newtownville Plaza (I'm not sure if it's exactly that, but I'm pretty sure Newtonville is in the name). But now, anybody reading the article will probably have no clue where Loudonville or Newtonville is. They probably won't even know Colonie. The important thing is to say it's about 10 minutes from the start of the Northway I-87 in Albany (I think Guilderland to be exact). So, instead of you guys arguing over the exact location of the place, why don't you guys try to get information on the school on the page (that's the more important info that this page lacks). Last time I contributed I think back in February, I was told I need reliable sources that did not give information sent in by the school. Is this still in effect? I remember it was under some sort of non-advertising policy. Is that still there? And is it reliable information if students or locals contribute information based on the fact they live on campus or near it? Also, would you need permission by the college to post pictures of it on wikipedia? (Sabres7414 (talk) 16:55, 2 May 2009 (UTC))

Pretty much all your arguments were used, but its nice to know another local agrees with the position I took. Without getting back into this argument, which has been pretty much dropped due to non-consensus. Info from the Siena College website is ok, but you should take it with a grain of salt and try to verify it from other reliable sources that dont take the word of the college for their own info. Photos taken by you of the campus with your own camera are your property and the college has no rights over them, you cant just download photos from their website and upload them here, those would be copyrighted by the either the college or the photographer. Students and administrators, teachers, etc can edit here but need to be careful of wikipedia policy and always make sure a Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) is always used and no flowery language like "its a beautiful campus with friendly professors!"Camelbinky (talk) 17:04, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Alright, then. Right now, I'm too tired to look up sources and all but I know some of the facilities on campus. There's Roger Bacon Hall, Siena Hall, Kiernan Hall, and Serra Hall (cafeteria). Also, there's a mistake on the page, townhomes are actually called townhouses. If I remember to, I'll get the proof for those things tomorrow. (Sabres7414 (talk) 23:31, 2 May 2009 (UTC))

Something like townhomes to townhouses I personally think you can change without proof (I put that info in myself so I dont mind if you change it, in my head they were the same things, I dont know what the Siena College website called them, I might have changed it from townhouses to townhomes). I'm less of a stickler over sources than some people but the best thing is even if you dont put a source for a fact make sure you're 90% sure its true and just keep in your head where you might find a source quickly enough to put it in if someone puts a tag on it or removes it, thats what I do because those long citation formats get in my way when I'm writing prose and I like to just go back and put in citations when I have more free time and I have the prose flowing. Good luck and I look forward to seeing this article become something really good! You may want to look at other colleges articles to get ideas on format and substance, what is notable enough to be put in and such. If you want go to the wikiproject dealing with this subject and they should have a list of FA college articles and look at least one in the US (I assume there must be at least one) and follow the format they have.Camelbinky (talk) 23:42, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Separate Athletics page

Would it make sense to create a new Wiki page on Siena Athletics? Numerous colleges and universities have their own pages, and their seems to be plenty of content already on Wikipedia to support a separate page. It's something I (or anyone who cares enough) could easily get started. Any comments or suggestions from others who have been active on the Siena (or other Capital Region) pages? Jasebasketball (talk) 04:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

If you're up for it, go for it. I'd suggest summarizing whatever the new article says and use that as the athletic section here. wadester16 04:55, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

If you're not aware of this already- there are separate pages for the Siena women's and men's basketball teams (and probably other Siena teams as well), if you havent already checked them out it might be good to read them over, correct any mistakes, and use those articles as a good jumping off point for your article on the Siena Athletics. I too support the idea of the new article and look forward to reading it in the future. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VanishedUser 23asdsalkaka (talk • contribs) 21:12, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely, I've been busy but I will get around to starting the new article in the near future.Jasebasketball (talk) 20:57, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

Incomplete history

Looks like someone started a paraphrase of the college's history from the official website but quit after one sentence; then they outlined further info. Obviously this needs expanding. A quick web search (including Worldcat) shows there is a "Greyfriar lecture series" dating from about 1958, now called the Greyfriar Living Literature Series, that brings notable authors to campus (including a period in residence?). The news that brought me to this article is about the college partnering with the New York Times regarding polling of 2018 midterm congressional races. The college's press release is here. We need to avoid WP:Recentism in describing that however. — ℜob C. alias ALAROB 15:16, 19 September 2018 (UTC)