Talk:Sengunthar

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Etymology discussion

The terms 'Kaik Kolar' refer to only people in the Chola regiment and not a caste. the word kaikkolar means one belonging to a regiment. People from various castes represented in the chola army. Therefore the current day Kaikolars are descendants of the commanders and soldiers of Chola army and they are not originated from a single caste

Really? A quick skim through the sources suggests to me that kaikkolar is actually the common name and that sengunthar is far less common. We may be looking at a move of this article before too long. - Sitush (talk) 01:40, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Historical Dictionary of the Tamils by Av Vijaya Ramaswamy, Jawaharlal Nehru University- Page 229 contradicts the claim entered in the wiki-The adoption of the Mudaliyar title, thus Sengunthar Mudaliyar, is probably aspirational. Below is the sentence given in the reference: The caste title Mudali or Mudaliyar is used by upper-caste non-Bahmins like Vellala agriculturists and Kaikola weavers... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elangots (talk • contribs) 13:00, 23 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Sitush, Could you check the above extract? Sengunthars and Vellalars were the first among the Tamil communities to be known as Mudaliars or the earliest castes using the Mudaliar title. Later chola inscriptions and literary works during the period provide the sufficient reference. Hence, the phrase "aspirational usage" of Mudaliar contradicts with the other native Tamil sources.--Elangots (talk) 04:58, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, the source continues "Like the sheikhs among the Muslim community of Uttar Pradesh, the title of Mudaliayar seems to have been used as a caste title by those social groups seeking upward mobility". So, yes, looks like I have it wrong, sorry. - Sitush (talk) 05:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: it is confusing, though. This whole business of Kaikkolar messes things up no end and I'm not convinced that the article properly explains what has gone on. I suspect that there has been some invention of tradition, which is very common for castes. - Sitush (talk) 05:21, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Fom the sources: The Mudaliar title has been used by Sengunthars for at least 900 years(Later Chola age starts from 9th century though). They have been engaged in weaving and related businesses througout the historical timelines. They were also army commanders, soldiers and chieftains for few hundred years. The occupation of weaving wasn't well received by few communities during the Modern period. Hence, it was considered as less prestigious by others for a brief period. Sengunthar's usage of Mudaliar title is a continuous usage though and it has to do with their Shaivite affliation in the Chola society and their positions in the Chola military--Elangots (talk) 05:37, 25 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Title used by sengunthar

Before 17th century Sengunthar used Mudaliar, Pillai, Devar, Rayar, Desigar as their title. After 17th century they used only Mudaliar as their Title

Chola sengunthar (talk) 13:01, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sengunthar and Senaithalivar

Sengunthar and Senaithalivar has same origin They split separately after later Cholas Chola sengunthar (talk) 13:03, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We need reliable sources that say so, as also for your previous comment above. See WP:V and WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 13:18, 2 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sengunda

Kathleen Gough uses the word Sengunda in this book. I suspect that is an alternate spelling. - Sitush (talk) 18:09, 15 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source

Why Edgar Thurston is not a reliable source ? Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 12:50, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

This has been discussed and agreed on multiple occasions, including at the reliable sources noticeboard. Both WP:HISTRS and User:Sitush/CasteSources give some reasons. - Sitush (talk) 12:57, 19 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is Fj Richards is reliable source Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 05:29, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Is this cite news is reliable source. http://www.island.lk/index.php?page_cat=article-details&page=article-details&code_title=32283 Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 05:34, 17 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Put privacy lock for edit in sengunthar page

Put privacy lock for edit in sengunthar page Vigneshvikifz (talk) 05:37, 12 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think it may need protecting but probably not for the reason you want. I have just reverted a massive series of poor contributions by several accounts around 9 February. A lot of it was gibberish and/or poorly sourced and I have concerns that there was a concert party of people flooding the article, reintroducing stuff previously removed for the same reasons.

Why not propose changes here in small chunks and get agreement for them before adding them to the article? And please try (a) not to edit while logged out of your account and (b), if it applies, just stick to using one account. Please also note WP:MEAT, just in case. - Sitush (talk) 16:14, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

gotra and hereditary head man of Sengunthar

why removing gotra of Sengunthar And hereditary headman of Sengunthar who called as Naattanmaikarar and Periyadhanakarar of Sengunthar Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 16:39, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

See the section above. If I could understand what you had written, and if it was reliably sourced, then there would be no need to remove it. Are you saying that there one one head of the entire caste, despite it being spread over a large area? If it was hereditary, did it pass from father to eldest son or what? And why does the headman seem to have two titles (Naattanmaikarar and Periyadhanakarar). You may understand it but I don't, and I've got a lot of experience in dealing with caste articles. - Sitush (talk) 16:43, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Or are you saying that the Sengunthar all belong to one gotra called the Naattanmaikarar and that the headman was (or still is?) called the Periyadhanakarar? - Sitush (talk) 16:44, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The source seems to suggest that there might be many "headmen" because it says that the titles of Naattanmaikarar and Periyadhanakarar are given to the head of a nadu council. There were many nadus. Do the councils still exist? - Sitush (talk) 16:48, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

There are 72 nadus for sengunthar.they are still existing in Tiruchengode,Tharamangalam,erode,etc Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 17:01, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Great, thanks. So each nadu might have a council and the council will include several people. Are those council members elected or are they hereditary as you say the heads are? Are these councils old things or a relatively new idea? I just think we are asking a lot of a single line in the glossary of the Mattison Mines book - we could do with more information. We will get there, though - it is much easier to work out the issues here and then add the information. - Sitush (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Red dagger kaikolar: Wouldn't we be better trying to summarise what is said here in the source? - Sitush (talk) 14:26, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The gotra of Navaveerargal is Upa Subramanya gotra who were ancestors of Sengunthar Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 17:05, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid this still makes no sense to me. I know what a gotra is and we do not usually bother mentioning them but is Navaveerargal the name of the gotra or Upa Subramanya? And which were the ancestors of the Sengunthar? - Sitush (talk) 17:10, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In this place Upa Subramanya gotra is representing the god Murugan. Sengunthars are linked to god Murugan so Sengunthar are Upa Subramanya gotra. Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 17:17, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

So Navaveerargal is a place? What about all the other places? - Sitush (talk) 17:21, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Forget that. I see we said "They believe that the original nine Kaikolars called Navaveerargal served in an army fighting on behalf of Murugan and that they descend from these nine people". That is fine. I've just got to find the gotra in there. - Sitush (talk) 17:23, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And the Upa Subramanya bit came from a book of poems whose date of publication I cannot work out. I'm not convinced that poetry is a great way to source it. - Sitush (talk) 17:26, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In Hinduism text Goddess Parvati created Navaveerargal to help God Murugan in war. The Navaveerargal (nine hero) who connected to Murugan were ancestors of today Sengunthar so they were called as Uba Subramanya gotra Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 17:27, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I understand the nine hero bit, thanks. I just do not see where the Uba Subramanya term comes from and the only source we had for that seemed to be a book of poetry, which is not great. Since we don't usually bother mentioning gotra (of which there can be 100s sometimes for one caste), can't we just leave it as it is now? What we say agrees with the source and with your explanation (which I am grateful for - thanks). - Sitush (talk) 17:32, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

why removing Naadu system Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 15:38, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

https://books.google.com/books?id=y089AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA73 Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 16:05, 16 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Adhi Diwakaram

Adhi Diwakaram is not comes under Chola period because the time line of medival Chola is 9th to 13th century. It comes under interregnum period of Tamil Nadu.^[1] Red dagger kaikolar (talk) 13:21, 24 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tamil_Nadu

Revertion

Mr. Scartiastic last version is best accepted, evidenced one. Why do you revert it??????? Kavin Mudaliar (talk) 08:42, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kavin Mudaliar:The version which i have reverted is so far the best stable one once reviewed by Sitush (talk). So its better to stick to that version for a while until he comes back, since he is active on these topics and is quite trusted by other editors. Thanks Mr.Sarcastic (talk) 04:54, 3 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Occupation

@Mr.Sarcastic: They not only weavers. They perusing many Textile related jobs like Sizing, [[Spinning], Dyeing. ^[1] Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 08:23, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah all is related to weaving only, why to mention it separately??? Look at other weaving castes all others do similar jobs only. Also see the page 11 of the source you added its clearly the same statement I wrote in the lead section. Mr.Sarcastic (talk) 09:47, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Mr.Sarcastic: these all are related to weaving but today Sizing, Spinning, Dyeing became seperate occupation. In olden days all these process were done by weavers but today these textile process became seperate seperate job Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 15:41, 7 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

. Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 06:11, 10 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Mines, Mattison (1984). The Warrior Merchants: Textiles, Trade and Territory in South India. Cambridge University Press. pp. 19 and 107. ISBN 978-0-521-26714-4.

Kula deva for this community.

@Mr.Sarcastic: Please add Murugan(Subramaniya swami) As kula deva for this community.

^[1] Tirukodimadachengunrur (talk) 08:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Mines, Mattison (1984). The Warrior Merchants: Textiles, Trade and Territory in South India. Cambridge University Press. p. 54. ISBN 978-0-521-26714-4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)

Mudaliar title used by sengunthar/kaikkolar is a historical title not an aspirational modern practice

^[1]vijaya ramawamys book -historical dictionary of tamils  has been misquoted quoted here.

its seen here that the kaikkolars are tradional users of the title "mudaliar", along with vellalars .

The caste title Mudali or Mudaliyar is used by upper-caste non brahmins like vellala agriculturists and kaikkola weavers .

It aslo mentions the castes which came to use the title mudaliar aspirationally.

the title of Mudaliyar seems to have been used as a caste title by those social groups seeking upword mobility. Thus, communities of Jains, Gadabas, Occhans, Pallis, and Vanniyans also used the title of Mudaliyar..

Hence i request the editors in charge @Mr.Sarcastic: @Sitush: and others to delete the "asipirational" wording and make changes accordingly . Thank you. --An asian peasant (talk) 10:17, 13 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ramaswamy, vijaya. Historical Dictionary of the Tamils (second edition ed.). p. 229. ISBN 9781538106853. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)

[1] ttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tamil_Nadu

[2] Mines, Mattison (1984). The Warrior Merchants: Textiles, Trade and Territory in South India. Cambridge University Press. pp. 19 and 107. ISBN 978-0-521-26714-4.

[3] Mines, Mattison (1984). The Warrior Merchants: Textiles, Trade and Territory in South India. Cambridge University Press. p. 54. ISBN 978-0-521-26714-4.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: date and year (link)

[4] ramaswamy, vijaya. Historical Dictionary of the Tamils (second edition ed.). p. 229. ISBN 9781538106853. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help)

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