Talk:Sea captain

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Requested move 20 December 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 18:37, 27 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sea captain → Captain (nautical) – Move over redirect. "Sea captain" is an uncommonly used title and is not appropriate for natural disambiguation, hence parenthetical disambiguation is used instead. —Madrenergic^talk 06:39, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a contested technical request (permalink). -- Alex^TW 08:33, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose — I think "Sea captain" is a better and more natural title.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:58, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support as nominator. I acknowledge "Sea captain" is an attempt at WP:NATURALDIS the title of "Captain", but it appears to force in an uncommon and awkward-sounding phrase in slavish attempt to fulfil the purpose. "Captain" is a more recognisable and natural title than "Sea captain", which is much less commonly used in English-language publications and everyday speech, where a shipmaster is almost always addressed and referred to simply as a "Captain" without further qualification, rather than a "Sea captain". This is similar to and WP:CONSISTENT with Captain (armed forces) and Captain (naval), both titles that have been accepted by the community over "Army captain" or "Naval captain". Secondly, this article addresses all forms of licensed shipmasters regardless of the waters they travel upon, whereas the title "Sea captain" excludes non-seagoing shipmasters such as those of lake freighters, which makes it WP:OVERPRECISION and hence inappropriate as an article title. —Madrenergic^talk 11:21, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support "sea captain" is gibberish In ictu oculi (talk) 14:47, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. "Sea captain" is a very commonly used term (and not gibberish in any way) and avoids the need for parenthetical disambiguation. I would also point out that Captain (nautical) could also refer to a Captain (naval), so is incomplete disambiguation. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:35, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That would be incorrect. "Nautical" means "relating to or involving ships or shipping or navigation or seamen", and a nautical captain is the occupation of the master of a ship regardless of rank or military/civilian status, and is not the same as a naval captain, which is simply a rank within a military force known as a navy regardless of duties, and may not be in charge of a ship or have the ability to command a ship, even. A naval captain can be a pilot, doctor, or engineer, amongst others. —Madrenergic^talk 16:20, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but by definition a naval captain may well also be the captain of a ship. The rank was named after the post. And someone who is a naval captain (as in, the captain of a naval ship) does not actually have to hold the rank of captain. As I said, incomplete disambiguation. We disambiguate so that readers can easily understand the difference between two articles, and this would be exceptionally unclear. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:42, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Given the context of the current discussion (choosing between" sea captain" or "captain (nautical)" as an article title), the phrase "sea captain" would also equally apply to the same situation above. The officer commanding a naval ship would also be a sea captain as much as a nautical captain, so I fail to see how choosing "sea captain" would reduce the potential for confusion. "Nautical" essentially suggests the sea, after all. Forgive me if I may appear obtuse. —Madrenergic^talk 17:42, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per WP:NATURAL – Natural disambiguation is preferable to parenthetical, and the present title is commonly used (not gibberish). RGloucester — ☎ 15:42, 20 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as perfect natural disambiguation Red Slash 16:51, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The current title is a good use of natural disambiguation. Rreagan007 (talk) 23:51, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose as per those who have gone before me. - wolf 01:09, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support Even though "captain" has many different meanings, Google Ngrams shows that "captain" has always been by far the dominant term – it is over 60 times more common in books published in 2000 than "sea captain", and there is no reason to believe that this usage accounts for less than 1/60 of those uses. Per WP:COMMONNAME, the current title is clearly inappropriate and thus the parenthetical disambiguation takes precedence per WP:PARENDIS. WP:NATURALDIS explicitly instructs not to use "obscure or made-up names". –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 04:39, 26 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.