Talk:Ramandu's daughter

Ramandu's daughter has been listed as one of the Language and literature good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
January 17, 2018	Good article nominee	Listed
April 21, 2018	Featured article candidate	Not promoted

Current status: Good article

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Emerald Witch?

The "Emerald Witch" is better known as the Lady of the Green Kirtle. Please see the discussion on the talk page there. Elphion (talk) 17:45, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image needed

Hey, could someone post an image of Lilliandil from the new movie on this page? She's one of the few characters to not have an image. I would do it, but I don't know how. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JDJ39 (talk • contribs) 17:42, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rename

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved, consensus against renaming to "Lilliandil". I'm going to boldly move the article to Ramandu's daughter as no one opposed my suggestion here, but if anyone disagrees with that they may revert and we'll start a full discussion about it. Jenks24 (talk) 10:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ramandu's Daughter → Lilliandil – The name of the article should be based on one thing: the most common form in public usage. In a Google search "Lilliandil" comes up almost twice as much as "Ramandu's Daughter". Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 09:22, 22 July 2014 (UTC) tahc ^chat 03:15, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose We're referring to two different things here: the character in the book and the character in the visual media. The primary subject of the article is the former. When people say "Lilliandil" it is clear that they are talking principally about the latter. The fact that the name does not even occur in the book means that the book character is not Lilliandil. Essentially all of the literary criticism uses "Ramandu's daughter". It's OK to refer to the name when discussing the adaptations, but the article's primary name should reflect the book. -- Elphion (talk) 04:16, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The article is clearly about both the literary character and the character in visual adaptations. Since more Wikipedia readers would know her from the movie than the book, claims of the literary character being the primary subject is POV at best. tahc

For example, the name "Longinus" does not appear in the NT, yet "Saint Longinus" is the article name in following Wikipedia policy. ^chat 11:54, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Neither of the examples you give (above and below) is really apropos to this case. Longinus is not about the two Romans mentioned in passing in the Gospels; it is about the legend that grew up around them. The article takes the right tone (I'm paraphrasing): "Longinus is a saint whose legend was cobbled together and freely elaborated from two Roman soldiers mentioned in the Gospels." The article is about the legend; the Gospel account of the soldiers is so minimal that they would not get their own article. Dr. Watson, on the other hand says "Dr. Watson is a character in the Sherlock Holmes stories of Arthur Conan Doyle," which is quite true -- and "Dr. Watson" is a handle Doyle himself frequently uses for him. But what does Lilliandil say: "Lilliandil is a character in C. S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia" -- but this is not true: the character in Lewis is Ramandu's daughter. OK then, revise to: "Lilliandil is a character in various adaptations of C. S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia -- but there's not much to say about her that's not already in Lewis." This makes it clear that "Lilliandil" (as opposed to "Ramandu's daughter") would never have gotten a separate article. The article is about Lewis's character, not the adaptation. -- Elphion (talk) 22:34, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose "Ramandu's Daughter" is the name for the character in the book and should be the name for the article. What if there is another adaptation and it is decided to give the character a different name? Are we then going to change all the articles again? KitHutch (talk) 12:42, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If for some reason someone gave the Roman soldier who pierced Jesus' side a different name, and it somehow became more common in public usage than "Longinus," then Wikipedia policy would be to use the most common name. tahc ^chat 15:49, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And if there is another adaptation, should we re-name the article again? Are we going to re-name the article on the Sherlock Holmes character from John Watson to Joan Watson simply because of the TV show "Elemenatry?" KitHutch (talk) 18:46, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You don't seem to be making any point in your questions. Your question does not even apply to a real Wikipedia article-- the article on the Sherlock Holmes character isn't even called "John Watson" now. tahc ^chat 21:04, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming the article Lilliandil is an example for recentism and may not pass the ten year test. See WP:Recent and WP:10YT. The character has been Ramandu's Daughter since the publication of the Voyage of the Dawn Treader in 1952. The name Lilliandil has only been around since 2010. The recent development may not last. KitHutch (talk) 14:54, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Giving it a relist to see if we get any more participation. Also, if the consensus id to leave it at the daughter title, it should be moved to Ramandu's daughter. Jenks24 (talk) 09:22, 22 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Plot summary of The Silver Chair

Under the heading "The Silver Chair", a plot summary of that book is included which really has little to do with the fictional character biography of Ramandu's daughter since it is mainly about the rescue of her son. I suggest that the summary be deleted. Nikolaj1905 (talk) 05:58, 17 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Some quick comments

I don't want to commit to reviewing the article right now, but some quick comments may be helpful:

"the daughter of the Duke" is ambiguous; do we have any links that could help?

I am expanded on this somewhat by adding the location and the link for it. Aoba47 (talk) 17:26, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Devin Brown or Elizabeth Baird Brown? Elizabeth Baird Hardy? And I wonder if something more precise than "author" is possible?

Hardy has the descriptive phrase "a scholar of mythology", but let me know if more is needed there. I have added a better descriptive phrase in front of Devin Brown. Aoba47 (talk) 17:26, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I mean there's a bit of confusion about who said what, people's names, and the source. Maybe it's my problem, but could you have a close look and make sure your citations/names are right? Josh Milburn (talk) 17:48, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think a brief introduction to Aslan (he's a lion, he's a religious allegory, he's the kind of saviour of Narnia) might be useful at first mention, as several of the things said about Ramandu's daughter seem to assume some familiarity with who Aslan is.

That is a very good point! I have added the information on a footnote on the first mention of the character. I used a footnote to avoid breaking up the flow of the article if that makes any sense. Aoba47 (talk) 17:46, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The rationale on File:Narnia01564890-1-.jpg could do with some work.

Thank you for catching this! I should have checked on this prior to putting it up for GAN. The image was already up prior to my expansion on the article, and I completely forgot to look into it further. I have hopefully addressed this. I have also chosen to upload a different image if that is okay with you. Let me know if you prefer the previous one. Aoba47 (talk) 17:54, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if it's worth digging out the initial introduction/description of the character from The Voyage of the Dawn Treader (which was always my favourite of the Narnia books, by the way!) to include as a blockquote?

Great idea! I have added the quote to the appropriate section. Aoba47 (talk) 18:06, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You currently cite the Hilder source as an edited collection, but it looks like a journal- should it not be cited as such?

Thank you for catching this. I was not certain on how to cite journal articles, but I believe that I have corrected this. Aoba47 (talk) 18:10, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Have you had a skim through the hits on Google Scholar? You may be able to eke out a little more analysis.

I had completely forgotten about Google Scholar so thank you for reminding me about it! Unfortunately, a lot of the sources have restricted access so I will try to see if I can access the journals and articles through my undergraduate and graduate alumni accounts. Aoba47 (talk) 18:14, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Great topic! Josh Milburn (talk) 10:54, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments! I will get to them later today if that is okay with you. Aoba47 (talk) 16:07, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@J Milburn: Thank you again for your comments. I believe that I have addressed a majority of them. I will definitely look around more in the near future to see if I can if find any further articles either through Google Scholar or through my alumni accounts from my undergraduate and graduate institutions to further expand the critical response and analysis portions of this. I really enjoyed working on this a lot, and it is actually inspiring me to work on more articles about literary characters in the future. The Voyage of the Dawn Treader is also one of my favorites, but I would have to say that The Magician's Nephew is my absolute favorite out of the entire series. Aoba47 (talk) 18:17, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]