Talk:Peruvian Primera División Femenina

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Merger proposal

Formal request has been received to merge: Liga Femenina (Peru) into Peruvian Primera División Femenina; dated: October 2022. Proposer's Rationale: The Premier division of women's football in Peru is only one. Over time the tournaments have changed their format and name, but they are still the official women's football tournament Discuss here. Elelch (talk) 21:35, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Editor's Note: See also: Copa Perú Femenino –GenQuest ^"scribble" 13:39, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As with the men's tournament Peruvian Primera División, the name and format have been changing but it is still the same football category and that is why there is only one article. For the same reason, in the case of the women's tournament there is no sense to have two separate articles when it comes to the same tournament.--Elelch (talk) 21:41, 27 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

No es correcto. La Liga Femenina es un nuevo torneo completamente distinto al Campeonato Metropolitano (1996-2007) y Campeonato Nacional de Fútbol Femenino (2008-2019). Por lo cual, en todo caso el artículo Peruvian Primera División Femenina debería fusionarse con Copa Perú Femenino. Ericbaudouin (talk) 13:10, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[Translation: That is not correct. The woman's league is a new tournament different of Campeonato Metropolitano (1996-2007) and Campeonato Nacional de Fútbol Femenino (2008-2019). So, in such a case the article Peruvian Primera División Femenina should be merged with Copa Perú Femenino. ]

No es así. Esto es igual que el torneo de varones. Los formatos y nombres han ido cambiando, pero se considera que es el mismo torneo de primera división. Incluso en el caso de varones existen torneos que se llevaron a cabo cuando la Federación Peruana de Futbol ni siquiera existía. En el caso del torneo de mujeres, todos han sido organizados desde un inicio por la FPF y lo que es más, la Resolución N° 014-2020-FPF es sumamente clara en considerar que se trata del mismo torneo cuando dispone «fortalecer el tradicional Sistema Nacional de Campeonatos de Futbol Femenino, denominado en adelante, Copa Femenina 2020». Es decir, simplemente le cambia de nombre y modifica el formato, pero sigue siendo el mismo torneo. Eso está explicado en el artículo, lo cual invito a que sea leído. Por eso no tiene sentido tener dos artículos cuando uno contiene totalmente al otro.--Elelch (talk) 13:27, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[Translation: It is not like this. This is like the men's tournament. Its formats and names have been changing, but it is considered the same premier division tournament. Even in the male's competitions case, there were tournaments that took place when the Peruvian Football Federation didn't even exist. Instead, in the woman's competitions case, all tournaments have been organized by the Peruvian Football Federation and what is more, the Resolution N° 014-2020-FPF is clear in considering that those tournaments are the same when it states "strengthening the traditional National System of Women's football Championships, hereinafter referred to as FPF Liga Femenina". That is, it simply changed its name and modified the format, but it is still the same tournament. That is explained in the article, which I invite you to read. That's why it doesn't make sense to have two articles when one totally contains the other. ]

No puede considerarse del mismo historial o linaje debido que el Campeonato Metropolitano y el Campeonato Nacional se sigue desarrollando bajo el esquema de Copa Peru, valga decir el Campeonato Metropolitano se sigue desarrollando en el nivel de Interligas. Ericbaudouin (talk) 22:15, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Adicionalmente, es un error indicar que es el mismo torneo ya que la Resolución N° 014-2020-FPF claramente indica: "la Comisi6n de Futbol Femenino es el Organo de la Federaci6n encargada de organizar y dirigir la promoci6n del Futbol Femenino, la cual ha propuesto determinadas normas tendientes a mejorar el Sistema. de Competiciones de Fútbol Femenino, CREANDO EL NUEVO TORNEO denominado Liga Femenina 2020. Ericbaudouin (talk) 22:21, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[Translation: It cannot be considered of the same history or lineage because the Metropolitan Championship and the National Championship continue to be developed under the Copa Peru scheme, it is worth saying the Metropolitan Championship continues to be developed at the Interleague level.

Additionally, it is an error to indicate that it is the same tournament since Resolution No. 014-2020-FPF clearly indicates: "the Women's Soccer Commission is the Body of the Federation in charge of organizing and directing the promotion of Women's Soccer, which has proposed certain rules aimed at improving the Women's Soccer Competition System, CREATING THE NEW TOURNAMENT called the 2020 Women's League.]

Por supuesto que es el mismo torneo de Primera División. La Federación simplemente dispuso que los formatos antiguos (Campeonato Metropolitano y el Campeonato Nacional) se reacomodaran dentro del esquema Copa Perú, para que su sucesor fuera la Liga Femenina, pero hasta antes de eso en su momento fueron cada uno el máximo torneo de primera división femenina. Por eso la FPF indica en su Resolución N° 014-2020-FPF que «el tradicional Sistema Nacional de Campeonatos de Futbol Femenino, denominado en adelante, Copa Femenina 2020» (al decir "denominado en adelante" implica que el nuevo torneo creado es el sucesor del anterior) y por eso es que cuando menciona que la Comisión de Futbol Femenino «ha propuesto determinadas normas tendientes a mejorar el Sistema de Competiciones de fútbol Femenino, creando el nuevo torneo denominado Liga Femenina 2020», simplemente está ratificando lo antes dicho, pues sólo se "mejora" lo que ya existe y se "crea" el nuevo torneo porque se cambió de nombre y de formato. Esto es exactamente igual a lo ocurrido con el torneo de varones, en que existió primero la Liga Peruana de Fútbol, luego se creó el Campeonato de Selección y Competencia y luego se creó el actual Torneo Descentralizado. Cada torneo nuevo fue "creado", claro está, pero resultó ser el sucesor del anterior, y es por eso que el palmarés reconoce los títulos de cada uno de esos torneos como las competiciones máximas de la Primera División de Varones. Por lo tanto, al margen de los cambios de nombres y de formatos, cada torneo femenino que fue creado fue el sucesor del anterior, y todos han sido también las máximas competiciones de la Primera División Femenina. Y esto no sólo se desprende de la resolución de la FPF antes citada, existe otro documento también de la FPF (Memoria 1992-2022, citado como referencia del artículo) el cual sostiene que «Mención aparte merece el futbol femenino que ha recibido el impulso necesario y viene desarrollándose con éxito desde 1996. (...) gracias al trabajo coordinado entre la Federación y los clubes, nuestro país se ha convertido en uno de los mejores en esta parte del continente», lo cual ratifica la continuidad de torneos oficiales femeninos. Existen además en el artículo otras fuentes que dan sustento a lo mismo: la primera división femenina es una sola y empezó en 1996.--Elelch (talk) 23:17, 4 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

[Translation: Of course it's the same First Division tournament. The Federation simply ordered that the old formats (Metropolitan Championship and the National Championship) be rearranged within the Copa Perú scheme, so that its successor would be the Women's League (Liga Femenina), but before that, at the time they were each the top women's first division tournament. For this reason, the Peruvian Football Federation (FPF) indicates in its Resolution No. 014-2020-FPF that "the traditional National System of Women's Soccer Championships, hereinafter called the 2020 Women's Cup" (by saying "hereinafter" implies that the new tournament created is the successor of the previous one) and that is why when it mentions that the Women's Soccer Commission "has proposed certain regulations aimed at improving the Women's Soccer Competition System, creating the new tournament called the 2020 Women's League", it is simply ratifying what was said above, because only what already exists is "improved" and the new tournament is "created" because it changed its name and format. This is exactly the same as what happened with the men's tournament, in which the "Peruvian Soccer League" first existed, then the "Selection and Competition Championship" was created, and then the current "Decentralized Tournament" was created. Each new tournament was "created", of course, but it turned out to be the successor to the previous one, and that is why the list of winners recognizes the titles of each of those tournaments as the highest competitions in the Men's First Division. Therefore, regardless of the changes in names and formats, each women's tournament that was created was the successor to the previous one, and all have also been the highest competitions in the Women's First Division. And this is not only inferred from the aforementioned FPF resolution, there is another document also from the FPF (Memory 1992-2022, cited as a reference to the article) which maintains that "Women's soccer, which has received the impetus, deserves a separate mention necessary and has been developing successfully since 1996. (...) thanks to the coordinated work between the Federation and the clubs, our country has become one of the best in this part of the continent", which confirms the continuity of official women's tournaments. There are also others sources in the article that support the same: the first women's division is only one and it began in 1996]

I believe that the only objection that there was has been duly clarified and resolved, and if there are no others, the articles should be merged.--Elelch (talk) 15:59, 17 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments following relist of 16 December 2022

Comment - If it is the same, the newer article should always be merged into the older article. That's pretty much the standard wikipedia rule. It looks like per the logo, the article should be named after the current league name, Liga Femenina. Why is there a (peru) as a disambugator? There is no other article with the title of Liga Femenina. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:09, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support, merge newer article into the older. It seems like spiritually it's the same competition, and that's it's a little pedantic to have separate articles.--Ortizesp (talk) 22:45, 16 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I lean towards oppose, because it seems a bit like a Scottish Premiership, which is basically the same thing as its forerunners the Scottish Premier League and Premier Division but has its own article. I admire the passion of the users above in their debate, but I don't think it's really all that important whether it's separate article or separate sections in the same article, so long as the info is there? Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 10:20, 17 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support, merge older article into the newer, because the the latter totally contains the former. Like in the case of peruvian men's tournament, the article of Peruvian Primera División contains all the first division tournaments, regardless of whether the name has been changing over time.--Elelch (talk) 16:27, 19 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't matter, at wikipedia we merge the newer into the older to maintain the longer history. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:28, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, so as the majority seems agree, please help us with the merge.--Elelch (talk) 12:31, 21 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.