Talk:Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany

Citations Missing

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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"The death rate of these prisoners has been estimated at 60 percent, a higher rate than those of other prisoner groups" Citation needed for this section. Where are these estimates coming from? is it from an article? records? JBurris123 (talk) 20:07, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Since it's in the lead, no need to double cite and the source is included later in the article (MOS:LEADCITE) Ppt91 (talk) 20:11, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"The death rate of these prisoners has been estimated at 60 percent, a higher rate than those of other prisoner groups." I'm still not seeing the reference and I looked for it. There's gotta be a reference that would justify this figure either/or, maybe rephrase the wording because it reads like the article is trying to say that greater numbers of homosexuals died than Jewish people. Casualdejekyll — Preceding unsigned comment added by JBurris123 (talk • contribs) 17:10, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@JBurris123: are you saying you didn't find the part of the article that supports the lead summary, or that you don't think the cited source supports the content? Either way, I don't think readers will commonly interpret the line as suggesting that "greater numbers of homosexuals died than Jewish people", as it references "rate" twice. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:25, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, most Jews who died in the Holocaust were never registered in a concentration camp, so this sentence would not apply to them. I don't know the exact figure for the rate of Jewish concentration camp prisoner death. Zinn, Alexander (2020b). (the cited source, p. 12) only compares with Jehovah's witnesses and political prisoners. (t · c) buidhe 21:33, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Human experiment revert

Hi @Buidhe regarding your revert of my edit. I am seeking additional explanation as your reasoning is unclear. The content prior to my edit incorrectly claimed that Most of the victims, non-consenting prisoners at Buchenwald, died shortly thereafter following Carl Vaernet's implants. LeVay states that at least one died and de Leeuw states that two died. You reverted this and stated "the previous content is verifiable". Is it really? Because the pages for the citations provided were not even accessible, and did not go into any detail. Both LeVay and de Leeuw provide precise figures, meetings, dates and details. Further I am not sure what you mean by "added content imo is undue considering that it was a small amount of the total who were persecuted"? The content I added clarified that castration was more common (LeVay), while the implant experiment was run on 10-17 males according to his letters with Heinrich Himmler. This detail should be included, not sure how that violates anything to do with WP:WEIGHT. Zenomonoz (talk) 08:00, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

This is a note to say that I've converted the citations in the recently added material to match the existing article style and fix the error that was introduced – no comment on the content either way. Best, Wham2001 (talk) 08:16, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks and sorry! Had I realised I was removing other citations I would've fixed that before publishing. Zenomonoz (talk) 08:19, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

Castration is covered elsewhere in the article, but medical experimentation per se did not affect a very large number of the 100,000 people that this article covers, so I don't think giving it more space would be WP:DUE.

The current content is verifiable, meaning it is stated in the cited sources. There is no requirement for sources to be freely accessible as long as you can obtain them somehow. I don't think there is any reason to assume that the source you cite is better than Whisnant. (t · c) buidhe 14:02, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

So you think Wikipedia should be falsely claiming “most of the victims died shortly after”? I don’t. Based on my search in Google Books, Whisnant doesn’t even say that. Regarding figures: I can’t imagine an editor arguing we shouldn’t include figures on the number of twin experiments at Auschwitz because “their numbers are small out of the total million who died there”? As for castration, I can rework that part given it is a repeat. Zenomonoz (talk) 21:21, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

We could say "most of the known victims died shortly after" per Weindling. He says that "at least seventeen" were victims of the experiment and that one died post-op and eleven more "shortly thereafter". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 21:45, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

disproportionately covering the most disturbing or extreme forms of persecution is a form of bias. Most of the castrations took place outside the kz system and under legal guise rather than as a "scientific" experiment

As Fire states, there is no contradiction in the sources. (t · c) buidhe 00:01, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I have been able to compare the sources more thoroughly. The issue is Weindling is grouping in non-homosexual men into his work, stating some homosexual, some criminal, and some neither. LeVay appears to be relying on the cases of men who were homosexual, that is why he states "at least 10 homosexuals" out of the 12 in total who were operated on. In addition, the 17 figure refers to all men in the experiment (including urinary samples), but only 12 were operated on. In the book Hidden Holocaust (1995) by Gunter Grau (the first book to investigate Vaernet thoroughly via his letters and notes), it states on p290 in the footnotes: Shielausky's figure of 13 operations is contentious. The first was performed by Vaernet on 13.9.44 on five prisoners, the second on 8.12.44 on a further seven. One of these twelve, the prisoner P, died on 21 December 1944. Weindling's claim that "Eleven more prisoners died shortly thereafter" is confusing and it's not clear how he arrives at that figure. If true, this figure still includes heterosexual sex offenders, so it probably shouldn't be used on a page about persecution of homosexuals. Regardless, it's not in any of Vaernet's notes that Grau reported on. He states nothing further is known of the prisoners (footnotes, page 289) in one of the group operated on. In summary, Weindling is lumping in non-homosexual sex offenders in there too, whilst Levay appears to have gone through and concluded at least 10 were identifiably homosexual in the camp reports. Both LeVay and Grau only report one died from the operation. Because this is an article about persecution of homosexuals, I see no reason why we should use Weindling here. Zenomonoz (talk) 00:29, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

The point about the seventeen not all being homosexual is a good one. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 00:41, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I've now posted a shorter version that does not specify the exact number of victims or deaths. (t · c) buidhe 03:05, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

You do not have consensus to do that. This is an article about persecution of homosexuals. The version you restored refers to experimentation on non-homosexuals. The version you restored also claims "Homosexual prisoners were a preferred target of Nazi human experimentation during the last years of Nazi rule" – is that verifiable in these sources? There is little reason to hide the numbers as it turns out they really are not disputed: experiments clearly performed on homosexual men comes to "at least 10", per LeVay who read through the case reports in Grau. Simon LeVay's source is the only one with an estimate precise to homosexual men, and as this article is about persecution of homosexuals, it is the one to use. Zenomonoz (talk) 03:25, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that Homosexual prisoners were a preferred target of Nazi human experimentation during the last years of Nazi rule is at least true at Buchenwald, per the sources and this paper by Roll. Targeting by the Nazi regime is certainly true if you include castration (which also occurred outside of camps) in this same section, which Buidhe wants to remove from here (this subsection is about concentration camps, but the whole area could have a new subtitle 'medical experimentation' and encompass both experiments in camps and castration outside). Zenomonoz (talk) 03:41, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I think the double mention of castration is fine, given this subsection refers to concentration camps. Zenomonoz (talk) 03:54, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't feel strongly about "Homosexual prisoners were a preferred target of Nazi human experimentation".

Including most of the castration cases in this section is not something I could agree with since that would require that these are considered as medical experimentation, which I do not believe is the case based on my research

I think you are wrong about consensus. Even if this article had not been through FAC, per WP:ONUS the burden of seeking consensus is on the editor(s) who want to include content.

Your revert also restored incorrect content, such as the invention of Vaernet's device being in 1944. (t · c) buidhe 04:11, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Did some minor tiny up, removed preferred then I have no issues. Zenomonoz (talk) 00:38, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

It's in the Weindling source and there's no reason to remove it. (t · c) buidhe 00:54, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

You just stated "I don't feel strongly about" it. I think "Homosexual prisoners were a target of human experimentation during the last years of Nazi rule" still makes it clear they were singled out because they were homosexual. Zenomonoz (talk) 01:22, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

I don't like your phrasing because it adds no information to the article. Next time try reading the sources before claiming there is a verifiability issue. (t · c) buidhe 01:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 18 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – Hilst [talk] 13:08, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

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Persecution of homosexuals in Nazi Germany → Persecution of gay men in Nazi Germany – The title uses the term "homosexuals" which is not gender specific, whereas this article is specifically about homosexual men. We have a hatnote which says This article is about the persecution of homosexual men. For lesbians, see Lesbians in Nazi Germany. To prevent further confusion, I think we should change the title. I've also seen a lot of style guides discourage use of the term "homosexual" due to being outdated, but I'm unfamaliar with Wikipedia's stance on this.—Panamitsu (talk) 11:10, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose because the sources are more likely to use homosexual. I would not oppose "homosexual men" though. However, none of the titles are quite satisfactory because (unlike the Nazi persecution of Jews or various national /ethnic groups) this persecution attacked the behavior and not the identity and notably also included pedophiles that targeted underage boys, bisexual men, straight men and boys working as prostitutes, and some trans women. (t · c) buidhe 15:02, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, since "gay" is a bit anachronistic and carries additional cultural context that is inapplicable to the men described in this article. Some of the best sources use "gay", but most use "homosexual". I would support a move to Persecution of homosexual men in Nazi Germany, as I think the improvement in precision is worth the loss of concision. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 19:02, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose but, as above, would support a move to Persecution of homosexual men in Nazi Germany. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:12, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

• Opppose and also oppose move to "homosexual men" per WP:CONCISE. Adding "men" is over-precise and unnecessary. Even if the brunt of the persecutions fell mostly upon men in practice, it is their homosexuality that was the determining factor. It also implies the need for a more general parent article on "Nazi persecution of homosexuals", and I don't see why this shouldn't be the parent article. The article Lesbians in Nazi Germany is small, and can be referenced as a child article, rather than as a separate contrasting article. Walrasiad (talk) 14:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Buidhe and Fff. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose per Buidhe and Fff. - SchroCat (talk) 17:09, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.