Talk:Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences

Nationality - New Proposal

I propose reinstating the multiple nationality flags, otherwise we're just going to end up with stupid edit wars with parochial POV editors who feel the need to acquire some personal status through their indirect relationship with Laureates such as Mr Modigliani, much like we're about to be subjected to with the Olympics, ugh. Per Wikipedia:Citizenship and nationality, there is currently no consensus on Wikipedia on whether citizenship or nationality is preferred. Nonetheless, the information is factual and I can't think of any good reason why both pieces of factual information can't be included (ie Citizenship and Nationality). Personally, I don't find multiple flags next to one individual confusing, and for those that need it clarified one can always click-through to the Laureates 's main article. Debate 木 00:18, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

My reasoning in trimming down the nationalities was this: There can be arguments about nationality. Just a for-instance, I came to it when I noticed that Vickrey was updated to be Canadian. He was born in Canada, and I have no knowledge of how much he considered himself of Canadian nationality. So, it's arguable. But there's a ready source which is the official web site, and that (to me) makes it clean and easy. My assumption is that the laureates or their proxies would object to a mis-record of their nationality by the official organization. Anyway, I might be wrong, but that's my reasoning. Cretog8 (talk) 22:57, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You reasoning is sound, and an approach I broadly support in theory, which is why I didn't object to the earlier suggestion. Having seen the consequences in action, however, it seems to me the nationality of laureates is not an issue of exclusive interest to the subject and their preferences are not the only consideration for including nationality information. Like our mate Mr Modigliani, Italy is going to continue to claim him as its own regardless of his personal preferences and I'm not sure that we can strictly say that they are incorrect in doing this. In any case, I'm no longer so sure that we can truly infer his preferences one way or another from the Nobel website, which will have its own policies on the matter - if it is exclusively based on citizenship then we do know that people take on US citizenship for many reasons, sometimes related to funding and career opportunities or international politics rather than any specific statement of loyalty. Loyalties can also be mixed, especially for immigrant communities. Ideally we would have separate columns for birth and citizenship, nationality being a relatively problematic term to define (see Wikipedia:Citizenship and nationality as above), however that would just make the table unnecessarily complicated. P.S. nice to see you back working hard after your break. :) Debate 木 23:28, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

biased toward neoclassical/mainstream

The bit about the prize award being biased towards "neoclassical" or "mainstream" is cited by two bits. Regardless of whether "neocleassical" is more accurate, both articles use the term "mainstream", and I think that's a better description of what the referenced articles mean. (For instance, in regards to Nash the issue wasn't his scholarship but whether he'd be embarrassing.) CRETOG8(t/c) 20:32, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

article moved again

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

User:Hapsala has just moved this article from "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" (NMPES) to "Nobel Prize in Economics" (NPE). The move log referred to a two year old discussion favoring NPE. The much shorter discussion which was one year old favored NMPES, which name the article has had since.

I think a move like this deserves discussion, so here it is.

For my preferences, I favor NPE as the name to use in other articles because it's pithy and well-known. I favor NMPES as the title for this article because it's more detailed and accurate. CRETOG8(t/c) 19:54, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

I think this is a good compromised and it basically what has been done for awhile. --Patrick (talk) 20:27, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Favor the user of the (more) correct name to mimimize confusion about what price it refers to. // Liftarn (talk) 20:28, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

The current name, NMPES, is more accurate than NPE and preferable to it. Ultimately, for what it's worth, I'd personally prefer some variation on "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" but NMPES is a good compromise. I would strongly object to the misleading title NPE. What people want to call this article when linking to it from elsewhere is really a matter for the editors of those other articles. Debate 木 23:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

An even better name would disclaim association with the Nobel Foundation, but at the very least, acknowledge its backing by the Swedish central bank. 68.115.152.250 (talk) 15:48, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Image at top of article

In addition to moving the page without discussing it first, user Hapsala keeps replacing the image of the Nobel committee at the top of the article with a picture of Robert Merton or one of Milton Friedman for unexplained reasons. Closest s/he came to offering an explanation was on my talk page; because s/he "doesn't care what you "think"". Other Nobel prize articles usually have the picture of the FIRST person to get the prize, which following that convention would mean that we'd have a pic of Ragnar Frisch and Jan Tinbergen. This would be 1) messy and 2) not really possible since a pic of Tinbergen is unavailable. So I don't see anything wrong with keeping the current committee photo. User Hapsala is at this point essentially engaging in vandalism, having been asked to provide a reason for the change and having refused to do so.radek (talk)

Besides its practical dimension, the 1997 award is the only where an other scientist is mentioned by the Academy as a "contributor" to the research leading to the prize, yet uneligable to be awarded. The image of the 2008 press briefing was never "removed", so please consult the article before making more accusations. --Hapsala (talk) 22:13, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

So? What is "practical dimension"? Why are you the one deciding this? I don't see how the fact that they couldn't give one to Black in 97 is at all relevant to what the image should be. And that doesn't address why you originally put Friedman there. It basically just seems like you're insisting on putting "your favorite" in there.The image of the 2008 press briefing WAS removed from top of the article. If it's going to be an economist then it should be either the first persons (Tinbergen and Frisch) or the most recent recipient, Krugman. radek (talk) 22:17, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Practical, indeed, to millions of derivate traders around the world.... At the time of the award, the term "practial" was actually mentioned by the Academy, as the prize had been critisized for being too theoretical, elitistic, etc. --Hapsala (talk) 22:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Again, so what? Why is this supposed to be a criteria to include the picture at the top? And other prizes had "practical" implications for other people. Someone else can come along that in fact it should be, say, Harsanyi that deserves to be displayed so preeminently because his contributions are the most significant. And so on. It'd all be POV and it'd lead to unnecessary edit warring (as yours already has). First to get it, most recent one, or a general picture of the committee make way more sense.radek (talk) 22:51, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Please, stop trolling and behave yourself. --Hapsala (talk) 23:32, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Please don't insult people. If you wish to try to justify your changes then please state some valid reasons.radek (talk) 00:20, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you prove to be a dishonest editor, making requests for third party opinions, yet continuing your bad faith edit warring and spreading accusations about others. You have done very little to improve the quality of the article - which mostly deals with "critisizm" of the award. And from that perspective, your systematic vandalism certainly makes sense. --Hapsala (talk) 06:23, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Radek's reasoning makes sense. I think a picture not specific to a particular winner is best. If it is going to be a particular winner, then the first or most recent makes sense. I don't think there's anything wrong with leaving Tinbergen out for practical reason of lacking a photo if Frisch should be the picture. The committee announcement picture is a bit dull, though, so hopefully there's something more interesting which can take its place. CRETOG8(t/c) 00:26, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Hapsala, one more revert and you're in violation of 3RR. You were before in fact but I led it slide and instead asked for 3O. Which agreed with me. If you want to discuss this change here you're welcome to do so, but please keep it civil and stop reverting against consensus.radek (talk) 06:41, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest that the heat gets turned down. Neither of you is vandalizing, as far as I can see, so accusations of such don't help. Both of you are edit warring, and it would be best to stop. CRETOG8(t/c) 14:35, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

If a third opinion was desired, a third opinion (mine) was given. If the third opinion is judged to be not constructive by one of the editors, then you're looking for something other than a third opinion. CRETOG8(t/c) 16:27, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Further Criticism of Association with The Nobel Prize

The original Nobel prize categories (Physic, Chemistry, Physiology and Medicine, Literature, and Peace) were selected by Alfred Nobel based on his opinion about there objective worth to society. The first three prizes are the hard sciences (physics, chemistry, and biology) and the last two prizes are, essentially, sociological in nature. Because economics is not a hard science (in that it is not predictive, rigorous, or finitely defined) it can not be eligible for any of the sciences prizes. However, it is possible that people who contribute to the field of economics could be eligible for the Nobel prize in peace or literature, if their contribution resulted in an achievement in peace, or was in the form of a great work of literature. Thus, the criticism with the economics prize association with the Nobel institute is not that economics is not a worthy field for an award, but that it appears economists who could not win a Nobel prize in any of the five fields, simply created a prize for themselves and associated the prize with the Nobel institute. Thus while the awarding of (and even the categories of) the Nobel prize are highly subjective, they are as the foundation of the prize intended. The Nobel foundation made no stipulation about introducing a new category, therefore introducing a new category is antithetical to the Nobel prize. For example, if the Nobel Prize could be amended to include new categories, astronomy and mathematics would have a much stronger argument for inclusion than economics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.135.235.188 (talk) 14:56, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Slight disagreement on the reason for the additional controversy. The controversy stems from the prize stems from the recognition gained in the economic sciences downplays research done on economic phenomena in other social sciences such as psychology, sociology and history. This is particularly interesting in the context of the delay of behavioral psychology taking almost half a century to enter the field of economics from the field of psychology and animal behavior. I have heard quoted and read from two sources, Fredrick Hayek (A laureate of the prize) and Alternet respectively voice the opinion that the prize is harmful to the field of economics. The reasoning stems from the resulting lack of communication between different social sciences. This problem would be reduced substantially if there were similar prizes offered to the other social sciences. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.181.210.62 (talk) 08:35, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

As the Sveriges Riksbank awards the prize the winner should be described as a Sveriges Riksbank Laureate, not a Nobel Laureate. Bebofpenge (talk) 00:55, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Image at top of the article 2

Since this has become a bone of contention I would very much like the input of other editors on what the picture at the top of this article should be. Currently the image is that of "Announcement of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences 2008" which, admittedly, is fairly bland. Hapsala keeps removing this image and insists on replacing it with that of Robert Merton. My problem with this is that the choice of Merton to represent the prize is arbitrary and can be construed as POV (as in 'he was more important than others'). Since Hapsala was not forthcoming with his reasons (and uncivil to boot) I reverted his edits and asked for a third party opinion. Cretog8 gave that opinion which was basically in agreement with mine. But to settle this once and for all it would be nice to get input of other editors to get a consensus. I think the three reasonable options for the picture are as follows: 1) The picture of the Announcement of the prize, 2008. The only problem with this is that the picture's a bit bland and none of the members of the committee are as recognizable as some of the laurates. 2) Following the practice at other Nobel prize articles we could use the picture of the first recipient to ever get the prize. The problem here is that there were actually two (Frisch and Tinbergen) and in fact one of them does not currently have a photo. We could put Frisch in and wait to see if someone can locate Tinbergen. Even then we'd have to cram two photos in there which can end up looking messy. 3) A photo of the most current recipient, updated each year. Personally I think this would be the best option since it would avoid the problems with 1) and 2), however, I expect that given who the most recent recipient is someone somewhere is going to complain. So taking this tack may cause some revert trouble in the future. Still, I think 3) is the best option - it's based on an objective, non-arbitrary criteria and avoids the limited-recognizability problem. However, I'd be fine with 1) (status quo) or 2) (Frisch only). What I do object to is one person choosing his 'favorite' and insisting that this must be the photo at the top of this article.radek (talk) 16:40, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I mostly agree with radek. I think a picture of Frisch would be fine, and the fact that Tinbergen is missing may turn out to be convenient since we don't have to figure out how to format both of them. If Tinbergen turns up, we can deal with it then. Alternatively, the most recent winner makes sense, but I don't want to deal with the political ramifications since the current winner is considerably more controversial than, say James Heckman. It's hard to justify any specific winner in-between without playing favorites, and I don't think we'll reach consensus on favorites. As near as I can figure, Hapsala, your choice of Merton appears above to be simply that, he's a favorite for you. Other possibilities are to use something more abstract than an individual's photo, or possibly to find a photo of several winners from different years together? Anyway, without finding a new picture, my preference is radek's (2) above and put in Frisch. CRETOG8(t/c) 20:16, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Hapsala. Studying the revision history, the conflict seems made up by Radeksz who was very quick to delete Hapsala's original contribution with a picture of Milton Friedman from the very beginning. Radeksz was also pushing hard for his suggestions in the midst of asking for a third party opinion which I believe is pretty dishonest. Later, Cretog8 kind of blew his chance of becoming a serious mediator, as his got involved in the edit war only minutes after replying to Radeksz request. As Friedman is probably the best known winner of the prize, a picture of him is fully appropriate. So is also the founder of the Black/Scholes, where Hapsala was adding an interesting comment about the prize committee's recognition of late Fischer Black. Maybe, Hapsala's caption is a bit lenghy, but, in view of the state of the article, the story might be hard to include in the body text. Anyway, the picture of the recent press conference should not be used as the lead image. Best regards, Polipopo (talk) 22:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Ah, well. Sorry if I blew my chance. Trying to look forward, rather than back, it's clear we don't have consensus yet. I still think that picking a favorite is problematic. If we go for the most famous, then Nash might be the best choice, since I don't think anyone's going to make a movie starring the (former) sexiest man alive about Milton Friedman. CRETOG8(t/c) 00:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Polipopo, you seem to agree with Hapsala based solely on the fact that you think I behaved inappropriately. But that should not be a criteria for how the article should be organized. The criteria should be what makes this a better article. In fact I think Friedman would be better than Merton since he's more recognizable but that's my own POV. Again, who is the most "popular" or "best known" or whatever is essentially POV. In fact I think the most best known winner right now is probably the most recent one, Paul Krugman. Which brings us to the other problem with having Friedman up there - same as with Krugman it would only fuel new edit wars. The information on Black most properly belongs in the page on those particular laureates (Merton, Scholes, etc.). But it could be mentioned within the body of this article if the committee did indeed express that they wish they could've given it to him.

And if I did behave inappropriately in the past, I apologize, but please note the uncivil remarks Hapsala made, in his edit summaries, in the comments above and on my talk page. Additionally the edit I made after asking for 3O was what I thought was a compromise - the most recent winner instead of the committee - which Hapsala reverted within seconds. Furthermore, I was not unaware that if one editor asks for 3O, that leaves the other editor free to edit war and revert at will while the person actually making a constructive effort to resolve the situation is forced to sit by until someone finally offers that 3O. Finally I don't see how Cretog8 disqualified himself. If he got involved only minutes after my request, then I didn't really edit-war while waiting for 3O did I? But even if so, the fact that Hapsala kept editing warring despite having obtained a contrary 3O says something about his behavior and also does not make Cregto8's third opinion any less relevant.radek (talk) 00:37, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

If I did behave inappropriately in the past, I'd also apologize. I never intended to promote a "personal fovorite", rather a leaurate that is, for better or worse, especially related to the prize. I thougt Friedman would be a decent candidate (promtly deleted by Radeksz for "obvious reasons") as he represents so much of the controvercy of the prize; the solemn award cermony was, for the very first time, interupted by a protestor; and as the protestor was carried away, the chairman of the prize committee turned towards Friedman, saying the memorable "It could have been worse". Merton/Scholes appeared less controversial to me. In this case, the committe aknowledged Black, implying that he would indeed also be included in the award, but was ineligeble because of his death two years earlier. Anyway, Nash might be the compromise we are looking for - controversial indeed, but immortalized in Holywood popular culture... --Hapsala (talk) 13:30, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Would you be alright with Frisch then, as the first recipient? I don't think we should push 'controversy' with the picture, whether it's Friedman, Krugman, Nash, or anyone else. It ends up looking like pushing some POV. BTW, some people consider the Merton/Scholes (wrongly IMO) controversial as well because of the LTCM thing. Information and anecdotes like the stuff you mention above (both with regard to interruption of the ceremony and the acknowledgment of Black can be included in the body of the text or, more properly, in the article on the particular prize/laurate. radek (talk) 14:33, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Additionally, if it ends up being Frisch then we could mention in the caption that he coined the terms "Econometrics" and "Macroeconomics". As another aside, I'm not sure I like having the list of laureates in a separate article. A lot of people (myself included) access this particular article to quickly look up the list or some particular winner and having to go to another article just means extra mouse clicks. From what I can tell the articles for other Nobels go either way, with those which include the winners in a separate article having been changed that way fairly recently.radek (talk) 14:49, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Any more thoughts? As for me, looking at and thinking about the pictures of Frisch and Nash, I get somewhat biased against using them. They're so portraity that I think they give that specific winner undue weight. If there's a good picture of the award ceremony for any economist, that might be preferable. Can we use an image of the medal under fair use, or is that off limits? CRETOG8(t/c) 00:29, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

It's not a terrific photo, but it could be zoomed and cropped, of 3 MIT laureates: List of Massachusetts Institute of Technology faculty. I like that it's three winners, with different focuses of study. Someone could still complain that it's MIT-biased. CRETOG8(t/c) 00:41, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Since there appears to be no further discussion, I say let's go either with Frisch or the 3 MIT folks.radek (talk) 18:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

OK, I put in the picture of the 3 MIT folks. I want to zoom in, but had trouble navigating Wikimedia Commons and licensing rigamarole. I'll get to it later, unless someone else does. CRETOG8(t/c) 18:53, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Only picture that deserves to be in the lead is a picture of the medal. Picture of any of the laureates would give undue weight to that person. -- Vision Thing -- 12:49, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Suggest move to Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The title is incorrect and misleading, there is no prize called the "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences". There is a prize called the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel. I suggest the article is moved to either Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel or simply Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences.

The Sveriges Riksbank Prize isn't a Nobel prize (one of Alfred Nobel's prizes), it's a Sveriges Riksbank prize and is completely unrelated to the Nobel Prizes, in the same way as the prize commonly known as the Alternative Nobel Prize (the Right Livelihood Award). GVU (talk) 21:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

This has been argued previously, many, many times. Check the archives. The consensus/compromise was the current name.radek (talk) 21:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not interested in the archives. If you don't want to participate in the current discussion of the name of the article, then don't. The current title is the title of a nonexistent prize which does not belong in an encyclopedia. If the article is not moved, it has to be deleted. GVU (talk) 21:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

If you're not interested in the archives then please don't participate in the discussion as an uninformed person. The archives are there for a reason.radek (talk) 21:45, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

There is no consensus whatsoever, and even an alleged "consensus" can't change the fact that a prize called the "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" doesn't exist. A recent discussion is more relevant than old discussions. GVU (talk) 21:52, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

This was a good compromise between the official title, which English sources hardly use (see WP:UE), and "Nobel Prize" which is quite misleading. Cool Hand Luke 21:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Except it's an invention of a new prize, as there is no prize called the "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences". GVU (talk) 21:56, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

This dispute has consumed far too much time, and you're not saying anything remotely new. See WP:LAME, where this dispute is listed. Read the archives. If you have some new insight about the title, come back, but this is old ground. Cool Hand Luke 21:55, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

If you're not interested in taking part in the discussion, don't. Meanwhile this article will have to be moved or deleted. GVU (talk) 22:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I really would like to see this put to a vote again. There is legitimate concern with continuing the claim it is a "Nobel Prize", as the usage of "Nobel Memorial Prize" suggests. It's controversial in academic circles and the prestige of a prize is key in it's importance. The Nobel holds a special place in people's hearts. There is a reason all the official correspondence from the Committee is clear to ALWAYS refer to it as a Bank of Sweden prize. Even the English-language website is called the "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel." Because it's a controversial topic, because it changes the fundamental name of the prize, I'd like to see this page moved from NMPES to "Sveriges Riksbank Prize" or "Bank of Sweden Prize". The nobelprize.org website is very clear, all the "Nobel Prizes" are listed as "Nobel Prize in X" while the "Economics Prize" is never listed as a "Nobel..Prize". WP:CN clearly says NPOV should be a consideration and there is contention over the name, one need look no further than the "Controversies" section in this article. And there's more of course, there's quite a few angry PhDs (Google: "Nobel by association") and even people like Peter Nobel who take offense to it being called a Nobel Prize. I'd like to see Wikipedia use the official name, as a point of neutrality. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 03:13, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

As an extra little point.. website clearly says very clearly "The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize." And I'm sorry but the statement "Nobel Memorial Prize" indicates that it IS a Nobel Prize. Clearly, there is pride, prestige in the title and the officials awarding the prize clearly think that it's not correct to call it a "Nobel Prize." For these reasons, I think that for NPOV reasons, this page should be renamed. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 03:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

<-- No, because you are simply repeating things which have been said before and which led to this article being called "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" rather than "Nobel Prize in Economics". As such it is unreasonable for editors to restate all the previous arguments that have been made a dozen+ times. Read the archives, for starters. The name of this article is a result of a long process and lots of discussion. You would really have to come up with some really really new and convincing evidence for there to be a reason to change.radek (talk) 21:59, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, excuse me but we seem to have Template:Sveriges Riksbank laureates in economics 2001–2025 but Template:Nobel laureates in economics, Template:Nobel laureates in economics 1969-1975, and Template:Nobel laureates in economics 1976-2000? Shouldn't all the templates be changed to reflect the new name change? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, or at least something consistent. Cool Hand Luke 00:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move (May 2009)

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was No consensus to move. Note: The WP:COMMONNAME argument seems stronger. I looked up newspaper references as a sanity check and they uniformly refer to it as the nobel prize in economics. (c.f.[1] and [2]). --RegentsPark (My narrowboat) 15:57, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

It has been proposed below that Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences be renamed and moved to Bank of Sweden Prize in Economic Sciences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.66.202.139 (talk) 11:31, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

• Strong support As opposed to the above, I prefer to use the English title. "Bank of Sweden Prize" is comparable in Google hits to "Nobel Memorial Prize" while "Sveriges Riksbank Prize" is only a distant third. I wold be okay with either, as both are highly preferred over the current, inaccurate and not NPOV name. The common policy of WP:NC is clear that not only should we consider WP:NPOV but that we should take some consideration to common usage, and "Nobel Memorial Prize" gives me 36K hits, 31K with "in Economic Sciences" and 22K if I have "in Economics". "Bank of Sweden Prize" yields 24K, with about 22K if we include "in Economic Sciences." Usage of the proper name, "Sveriges Riksbank Prize" yields only ~10K. As such, both the current, and suggested terms are fairly close in usage. The primary problem, as I explained in the above subheading, is that the current title is not NPOV, as (per even the article's Controversy section) the status of this Prize as a "Nobel" is subject to debate. As such, I think Wikipedia should prefer something closer to the official usage. Even the official website is clear that, while all the other prizes are a "Nobel Prize", it never associates the Economics prize with the name "Nobel", being explicitly clear that "The Prize in Economics is not a Nobel Prize." The usage of "Nobel Memorial Prize" implies that it IS a Nobel prize. There are plenty of examples of why the current association with Nobel's name is not NPOV and is avoided by the Award Committee. Its clearly a point of dispute and I'd like to see Wikipedia take the NPOV perspective by adopting the more accurate name. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 20:49, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • • This google hits result is due to the fact that actually the most commonly used name in the media is "Nobel Prize in Economics" without qualifiers. If you're gonna bring up Google hits, then that name - Nobel Prize in Economics - should be considered as well.radek (talk) 04:34, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
      • Sure, lets consider that then! Go ahead! --kittyKAY4 (talk) 00:59, 27 April 2009 (UTC)
        • Surely you're joking? Any who cares to read reliable sources will find out that there is no such thing as a Nobel Prize in economics, and that this prize is not a Nobel Prize. Tomas e (talk) 11:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Weak support. This is not one of the Nobel Prizes, and clarity and usage both point in the same direction. My response was nearly What? Again?, but it is probably best to settle this. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:19, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose I fail to see how this article title isn't neutral, and it is by far the most common name. TJ Spyke 23:09, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
  • I thought the neutrality point is obvious from the "Controversies" section, people clearly take offense to this being referred to as a "Nobel...Prize". For common usage, I think you're mistaking the actual titles. The current article name is "Nobel Memorial Prize" (NMP) and that is nowhere near the most common name. "Nobel Prize in Economics" (NPE) is BY FAR the most common name at 500K hits on Google. But it has the problem of being WRONG in a way the officials take notice to point out.. it is NOT a Nobel Prize. I believe thats EXACTLY why the previous discussion decided to NOT move the page to NPE. However, I'd like to point out that NMP and BSP have fairly similar usage numbers(20-30K) but NMP still ends up calling it, inaccurately, a Nobel Prize of sorts. The question isn't between "Nobel Prize in Economics" (500K) & "Bank of Sweden Prize" (20K) but between "Nobel Memorial Prize" (30K) & "Bank of Sweden Prize" (20K). For usage, NPM is about as weak as BSP, but BSP is more accurate and, with respect to the Nobel Committee, doesn't claim the Prize in Economics is a "Nobel Prize." The controversy of the current title? It's referred to as a "Nobel...Prize" when it isn't a "Nobel Prize". For a prize, prestige is important, and the prestige of the "Nobel" is without debate, but the connection of the Prize in Economics to the Nobel is clearly up for debate (again, look @ "Controversies" in the article). --kittyKAY4 (talk) 05:46, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose Having fought this battle before--and remembering how long and pointless it was--I can't believe that anybody intelligent would wish to start this all over again. Maybe, just for fun, we should insist that the name should be Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne. It's the real name, after all. If we don't consider the real name, but simply the name most commonly used in English, then the article title should be Nobel Prize in Economics. This is the name that I personally prefer.--Anthon.Eff (talk) 01:30, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • No one is insisting we use an archaic or difficult to understand name. Nor is anyone even remotely suggesting that we call it a "Nobel Prize" when it (very important) is NOT a Nobel prize. And prestige, reputation, and respect are key for an award. Your reasons are nothing but straw manning the point. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 03:46, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

No, but you are suggesting we use a name which most readers are unfamiliar with or that most media outlets do not use. For a parallel, consider that The Heisman Trophy is actually the "Heisman Trophy Memorial Award" but since everybody calls it the Heisman Trophy, that's what the article title is.radek (talk) 21:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

• • Calling other editor's intelligence into question isn't the best way of being taken seriously. May I recommend a careful reading of WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF and then a posting of an apology before you make any more edits. Tomas e (talk) 11:12, 28 April 2009 (UTC)
• Very Strong Oppose per comments above, per the fact that this discussion and related votes have been done like ten times before and the current name is about as close to consensus as we're likely to get, per the fact that this is just a waste of editor's time, and per the fact that almost all media outlets use the term "Nobel prize in economics". Additionally, once this is resolved I suggest a template is made and placed at the top of this page, indicating that this discussion took place so we won't have to go through this nonsense in a few months again.radek (talk) 04:37, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
  • Then why not move the article to "Nobel Prize in Economics"? --kittyKAY4 (talk) 20:44, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I'd be fine with that, but that's a different move proposal.radek (talk) 21:36, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose per previous discussions. -- Vision Thing -- 16:06, 26 April 2009 (UTC)
• Support. The instigator - the Bank of Sweden/Sveriges Riksbank - and the prize selecting body - the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences - both call it the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences (in Memory of Alfred Nobel) in all their communications in English. While I can live with the name of the Bank of Sweden being translated in the title, the present name is plain wrong, as it is a Wikipedia-contructed hybrid between the correct name and the misunderstanding that it is a Nobel prize, which it isn't. Not having the first part of the prize's actual name in the title, the name of the instigator, makes this hybrid look especially ridiculous. I'm aware that this issue has been discussed before, but it makes it no less wrong. I see no point whatsoever in taking any notice of erroneous media reporting in choosing a name for an encyclopedic article; if you check you will notice that all organisations officially involved with the Nobel prize always make a clear distiction between this prize and the Nobel prizes using carefully chosen terminology. Which is then mangled into complete incoherence by Wikipedians. Time to get it right, folks. Tomas e (talk) 11:06, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

The thing is, it is NOT a Wiki constructed hybrid, rather it reflects the usage of the MEDIA (and other sources) constructed hybrid (besides the plain old "Nobel Prize in Economics"). And Wiki should use what the sources use. The fact remains that generally this prize is commonly known as "Nobel Prize in Economics" or "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics" NOT the "Sveriges Riksbank...". It's enough if the official name is made clear in the article.radek (talk) 17:20, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose ask the man in the street if it's a Nobel Prize or if it's the Bank of Sweden prize, or see if they even recognize the existence of a Bank of Sweden prize. 76.66.202.139 (talk) 06:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The title "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" is POV and inaccurate

The above discussion clearly demonstrates that the current title is strongly disputed, and is considered POV and inaccurate, and as such as not encyclopedic, by several editors. This needs to be indicated in the article until the situation can be solved. It seems that it is only a minority that support the Wikipedia-invented title "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences". The only NPOV solution, and solution appropriate for an encyclopedia, would be to move this article to the actual and official name of the prize, instead of "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" which is a prize that doesn't exist. GVU (talk) 18:43, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

No, the above discussion clearly demonstrates that the consensus of editors Opposes or Strongly Opposes the proposed move. The only solution, other than the status quo, would be to move this article to Nobel Prize in Economics which what most sources, from the New York Times to scholarly articles, call this prize. Also. This is like the 17th time this discussion has come up in the last five minutes. It's probably best to just let go.radek (talk) 19:01, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Untrue, the above discussion demonstrates that the consensus of editors is that the current title is POV and inaccurate, and that the title is only enforced by a very few POV pushers. I'm not going to let you have it your way just because you are persistent. GVU (talk) 19:32, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Aside from the nominator I count 1 (one) "Weak Support" and 1 (one) "Support". On the other hand there is 5 (five) "Opposes" including some strong ones. So basically you got 2, maybe 3, editors who want to change and 5 who don't. I believe 5>2 and even 5>3. So the proper way to put it is that "the title is perennially challenged by a very few POV pushers" (If we're gonna be uncivil about this and start name calling people). Now, 5 out of 8 or 7 may not be an overwhelming majority but it is enough to be considered consensus.radek (talk) 20:53, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I count at least 5 editors in the recent discussion on this talk page (including myself) who wish to change the title. So at the very best, the situation is 50/50 and there is no consensus whatsoever. So the current title is not a consensus version, it's proven to be factually inaccurate and several users have voiced concern over it's neutrality. GVU (talk) 21:53, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

LOOK. This has been brought up a dozen times. Most recently it was brought up in March, then, after somebody somewhere didn't get their way, it was brought up again in April. After a certain point, bringing up an article for a rename time after time after time again becomes simply disruptive. Each of these many times at the very least there was no consensus to move. Since there was no consensus to move it stays where it is. Since it stays where it is and since there is no consensus to move you cannot add a POV template simply because you do not like the article title. That's just trying to get one way what you couldn't get another. Again, it is disruptive. And if you're gonna count supporters from the previous discussions, then honesty demands that you count the opposers from those as well.radek (talk) 21:58, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

I second this. Give it a rest. A lot of us would prefer Nobel prize in economics, but we don't want to start another fight. So we let it be. And by the way, you are being a bit disingenuous about the naming on the Scandinavian WPs: until March 19, 2009, the Danish WP article was titled Nobelprisen i økonomi--YOU then changed it to Sveriges Riksbanks pris i økonomi (see here). One has to wonder why you are making such a big deal about this. Could it be because far-left-wing Swedes have made it a priority to trash the Nobel prize in economics, thus implicitly trashing mainstream economics?--Anthon.Eff (talk) 01:12, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

GVU may count 5 editors in recent discussions who want to move the page, but do they want to move the page to the same name? Although imperfect, the current title is a compromise which seems to address all except the most fanatical. According to common usage, the title should be simply Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences. That is unacceptable. The various names suggested including the bank of Sweden are similarly unacceptable due to unfamiliarity to most readers. If you really think some other consensus compromise is possible, you might try raising a WP:Request for comment, although personally I doubt the outcome will be any different than previous discussions. older ≠ wiser 22:05, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The German, French, Dutch and all the Scandinavian Wikipedias including the Swedish one use the correct name. So why is it not possible in English when it's even used in Swedish and the other major European languages?

The claim that "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" is a "compromise" is hilarious. The fact remains that a prize called the "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" simply doesn't exist. It can't be argued that the prize is widely known as the "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" either, as already pointed out. So the argument for that title is very weak, it's not official, it doesn't even resemble the correct name and it's less used than other names, and mostly used by low quality sources.

Also: Even if the Right Livelihood Award is much better known as the Alternative Nobel Prize, the prize isn't moved to that title. When it comes to accuracy and neutrality, which are both core Wikipedia policies, we really only have one option. In the long run, I'm sure this article will eventually be moved to its correct title, as has been done in several other languages mentioned above. GVU (talk) 22:36, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

At some point in the future, this may be worth bringing up again. I missed the most recent discussion on renaming, and may have supported the move, but that's in the past. It should be given a pretty long rest before it comes up again. Editors who might engage in careful discussion of the merits are simply exhausted from having done so so many times in the past. CRETOG8(t/c) 22:22, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

Per Cretog, this seems to have been exhausted into pointlessness. IMO, I'd simply move to Nobel Prize in Economics as the best "common name" over the rather funky title we currently have. — sephiroth bcr ^(converse) 09:01, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

The title connotates that the award is not properly a "Nobel Prize," but evokes the most common English term for the award, the (incorrect, but popular) "Nobel Prize in Economics." It's also been used by a broad array of reliable sources as a short form. It's therefore a good compromise and has been stable for a relatively long time. I would strongly oppose a move in either direction. Cool Hand Luke 19:11, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Personally I think it should be "Nobel Prize in Economics", the most common name used by sources. But I prefer a stable compromise, such as the current name, to an unstable NPiE. However, actions by GVU are basically attempts to destabilize this compromise. If this is brought up for a move vote AGAIN in the near future I am going to propose a move to NPiE which has a lot better chance of passing than the SBPiES (or whatever it is) proposal.radek (talk) 19:26, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

The current name is only claimed to be a "compromise" by those why insist it's a "Nobel Prize", so it's not a real compromise, just a sneaky way to include Nobel's name in the title without directly claiming it to be a Nobel Prize. Personally, I think the current title is even worse than "Nobel Prize in Economics". The latter is, although incorrect and misleading, at least in unofficial use (much like the "Alternative Nobel Prize"), while the current title is both inaccurate and, if not completely unused, not extensively used compared to other names. It's hardly used by quality sources. GVU (talk) 14:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Give. It. Up. This. Is. Becoming. Disruptive.radek (talk) 14:55, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

There is serious political right-wing bias in this sentence too: "It is commonly referred to as the Nobel Prize in Economics[3] and it is identified with the Nobel Prizes, although it is not one of the five Nobel Prizes (in Physics, Chemistry, Physiology or Medicine, Literature, and Peace) which were established by the will of Alfred Nobel in 1895.". The part that makes this statement unncessarily fuzzy is the last part " which were established by the will of Alfred Nobel ". As if a noble prize can be anything else than those that were established by Alfred Nobel in 1895. What is the intention of this sentence? It only adds bias and uncertainty and makes the article in general difficult to interpret. The simplest form is to state "There is no nobel prize in economics. There is however a different prize constructed after his will by a different group of people against his descendants will which is called Sveriges riksbanks pris i ekonomisk vetenskap till Alfred Nobels minne." The "the new york times quotes it as".. has no importance. The only authoritve source is Alfred Nobel and he is dead. And if you really were to allow popular magazines to define this, can I choose which magazine I want to use as authoritive title too? Let's make everyone pick their paper's favourite nickname for the price. How are you going to pick which paper's favourite nickname is the correct one? No, this is sensless. Name it by its real name, not by something that "many westerners" (or something similiar) sloppily (and biased) like to think. And then will you also add to the stats all the people who consciously stay silent and say nothing because it is not a nobel prize in all of those possible different context which that is possible? Of course not. Such a study would be impossible and retarded to its purpose. As for the "this argument is getting boring"-argument, I do not see how it is really productive. Are we really to stop discussions just because they are boring? And if it really is, why enter the dialogue? In general, the idea of accepting this title is proof of Wikipedia's demographic and political bias. There is no nobel prize in economics. Claiming there is one, is exactly wrong. Unofficial use, "common" referencial name, fantasies, trolls, goblins, etc are not relevant to the article. The prize which is refererred to in the article is an after-construction which was made up long after Nobel against the will of his descedants. There is only one authoritive source for the prizes and that is Alfred Nobel and to some extent the commitee. If 5000 market gorillas claim that it is a nobel prize, it still is not. This title/article lowers Wikipedia's standing in my eyes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.254.65.77 (talk) 02:03, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Opinions of right-wing economist editors notwithstanding, it is by no means "disruptive" to point out the achingly obvious fact that the official name of this prize is, currently, "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" and that it is not a "Nobel Prize" -- and that colloquial names for the prize are not what should dictate the terms used by encyclopedias. It should certainly be mentioned that "Nobel Prize in Economics" is one of several commonly used shorthand terms for the prize, but that fact does not alter those other facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.241.218.107 (talk) 08:34, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

As other editors have pointed out, the prize is most commonly referred to as the "Nobel Prize in Economics." Winners of the prize are commonly referred to as "Nobel Laureates." A title that emphasizes the "fact" that it is not "really" a Nobel Prize is a highly POV attempt to reduce the prestige associated with the prize (and the legitimacy of mainstream economic theory generally) by disassociating it from the official Nobel Prizes. The current compromise is also unacceptable because virtually nobody refers to it as the "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences." The article should either be titled by an English translation of the official prize name or (preferably) as the "Nobel Prize in Economics." Per WP:COMMONNAME, common names are to be used even though they are not the "real" name, as with "Bill Clinton" rather than his legal name, "William Jefferson Clinton." Elliotreed (talk) 19:04, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

"The prestige associated with the prize" you refer to is purely "Nobel by association". In his will A. N. was very clear about the "for the benefit of mankind"-aspect. Who other than a selected elite will benefit from the ideas awarded with the Sveriges Riksbanks Pris i Ekonomisk Vetenskap till Alfred Nobels Minne. I could call a prize "the XXX's Price in Plumbing in Memory of Alfred Nobel" any day, and award it to whoever promoted clean drinking water to the thirsty in the third world. Soon it would gain prestige by its "benefit of mankind"-content, and it would be a Nobel Prize. Right? Laelele (talk) 23:20, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Infoboxes of economists

This prize is named differently in the infoboxes of different economists. For consistency name should be same in all of them, and in my opinion that name should be same as of this page. -- Vision Thing -- 18:47, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree on the first point (the name should be the same for the various economists). I'm not sure if the name should be the same as the name of this page--I lean toward thinking that this page can afford a longer, "more correct" title, and that articles should simply use the most-recognized "Nobel prize in economics" nickname. I've thought that the best way to standardize the name is to make a template just for the name. The only problem with that is that the periodic naming wars would then take place via template editing. CRETOG8(t/c) 19:15, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't have strong stance on what name should be used, so your proposal is fine by me. What kind of template did you plan to create? -- Vision Thing -- 19:23, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Lead section cleanup

I wanted to clean up the lead section by making a few small grammar changes (5 to be accurate), but people keep reverting because they seem to confused about the consensus on the talk page. So I'm going to elaborate them here and any objections can revert, but please explain here as to why.

• Added a comma for the "also known as" clause.
• Removed the repeated mention of the double names. We don't need 2 back-to-back sentences making the same point. It only needs to be said once in the lead.
• Removed the full listing of the Nobel Prizes, seemed unnecessary and wordy, those interested can just click the wikified link for Nobel Prize.
• Removed the full Swedish name, it doesn't help anyone. nobelprize.org uses the English name and we elaborate on the full Swedish name further down.
• Added a qualifying, cited inaccurately for the "Nobel Prize in Economics". The citation clearly states that it is "Not a Noble Prize". This isn't about the article name, it's about the accuracy. The talk page consensus is that WP:NCON is clear, even if common name is inaccurate, use the common name. Quoting the consensus on from Oct 07: "[The argument is that] the common name is incorrect or misleading, and thus should be disqualified. That's not consistent with my reading of what the WP:NCON guideline says should be considered, however. It says that for proper noun article names, 'If the common name conflicts with the official name, use the common name'.". However, there is a consensus that the common name is inaccurate, the citation clearly shows why. It seems that the consensus reached on this page is "yes, the common name is inaccurate, but articles are named by common name", and that is fully in line with this edit. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 22:48, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

You just violated 3RR on this article. Please self-revert your last edit.radek (talk) 22:51, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

kittyKAY4 reverted 3 times, which is pushing it, but given they commented here to explain and promised not to make more reverts, I'd give it to them as on the OK side of WP:3RR. I also think that their explanation above is pretty good. I think the changes they made are mostly OK, could probably use a little tweaking, but aren't really disagreeing with the pre-existing consensus. CRETOG8(t/c) 23:27, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Wait, how was that WP:3RR? I thought I'd need to do MORE THAN 3 Reverts for 3RR. My first edit was completely original, and in my honest opinion, didn't change any content, it simply reorganized things. Then I reverted thrice, twice to Anthon.Eff and once to Radeksz. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 00:22, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

It was 4 actually but I'm not reporting him/her because I believe the user is acting in good faith. As to the nature of the changes, some of them are obviously ok - like the grammar fix. But the other aspects of it, like putting "inaccurately" in there seem like just an attempt to mess up the tenuous consensus on this article. How about just saying "known by its common name".radek (talk) 23:53, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, can I get some feedback here? Of course, one of the other editors would have to make these changes. Can we agree to

1. Remove the comma between NMP and NPE and add one after NPE, to separate the "often referred to as the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences or Nobel Prize in Economics" as a clause
2. Remove the "It is commonly referred to as the Nobel Prize in Economics" clause. The previous sentence already says it's "often referred to as the...Nobel Prize in Economics". I'm sorry but it's redundant and unnecessary. I think the cleaned up version with "While" conveys the same information, but more clearly.
3. Remove the full listing of the other Nobel Prizes. It says the five Nobel Prizes, if anyone wanted to know what five, they could just click the wikilink.
4. Remove the full Swedish name from lead. The long name of the prize, along with two "often known as" is already hard enough to read, without a long title in another language. We talk about the full name in Swedish later in the article, it's not needed in the lead. NobelPrize.org uses the English and we have no real need to include the Swedish, I don't think it adds anything.
5. Add the citations for the name "Nobel Memorial Prize". They were only included in my most recent revision but they seemed appropriate.
6. The controversial one, I guess: Add inaccurately or misleadingly in front of the Nobel Prize in Economics designation. The consensus seemed to indicate that "Nobel Prize in Economics" is inaccurate. There was no disagreement to that during the archived debates. The quote from the website is ..is not a Noble Prize. The Committee is always clear to distinguish the prize as "associated" but never actually a Nobel. There is no such thing as a "Nobel Prize in Economics" and that makes the designation inaccurate at best and misleading at worst. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 00:43, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

1-3 are fine (you can do it yourself - at least I'm not going to report you - as they're fairly close to being minor edits). 4, I think the full Swedish name does belong in the lead should be in there but we can discuss this one. 5 is also fine. 6 is the hard one. "Inaccurately" just smacks of POV. It is not the "exact" name but it is the name the prize is known under and it is the common name. It sort of depends by what you mean by inaccurately. Lots of prizes are known by shortened or more descriptive names and the inclusion of that name is non-controversial because there isn't this ideological baggage associated with it.radek (talk) 01:17, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I'd appreciate if you'd do it (1-3,5). For 4, WP:LEAD says When the subject is best known by an English title, its alternative names may be included; however, the editor needs to balance the desire to maximize the information available to the reader with the need to maintain readability. I'm sorry but the long Swedish name hampers readability and doesn't contribute much information to the reader. We do talk about the full Swedish name later, but I don't think it contributes anything important. WP:LEAD's justification for the Swedish name in Sweden is based in Relevant foreign language names, such as in an article on a person who does not herself write her name in English, are encouraged., but that doesn't apply here. The Nobel Foundation announcements generally stick with just the English, and their website is only in English (as far as I can tell). For 6, the hard one, I really would like to use the softest wording possible, but when it says "Nobel Prize in XXX" and isn't a "Nobel Prize", I think it is inaccurate. I don't like the POV though. We could reword it in the way of Fields Medal or Abel Prize, and say "The Prize in Economics is often described as the Nobel Prize in Economics because of it's association with the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences and imitation of the rules governing the Nobel Prize." I'd like to find a more neutral word than imitate but I can't think of one. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 02:58, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind on you doing 1-3,5, I did those changes while trying to mesh it with the recent rewording by another editor. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 03:14, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay sorry about all that. Point 6 I think is unimportant now, the new restructuring words it fine without the POV word. Although, I still might like to see it phrased more like Abel Prize or Fields Medal. Point 4 is the only one left and I've left you with the above explanation. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 03:36, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Strongly disagree about the Abel Prize or Fields Medal wording. A Google search for "Nobel Prize in Mathematics" doesn't principally bring up hits about the Fields Medal or Abel Prize, it mostly brings up hits about "why is there no Nobel Prize in mathematics?" By contrast, it's been well-documented that "Nobel Prize in Economics" is by far the most common name for the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences Memory of Alfred Nobel. (I am not even convinced "Nobel Prize in Economics" is any more inaccurate than "Bill Clinton" or "Microsoft," whose official legal names are "William Jefferson Clinton" and "Microsoft Corporation.") Elliotreed (talk) 19:33, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Names in the lead.

This is getting crazy. The inclusion of NPE in the first sentence and the second sentence goes against the consensus against repetition we talked about yesterday (see above). We shouldn't have 4 names in the lead, it's terribly confusing, and against WP:LEAD. To summarize the four:

1. Nobel Memorial Prize (NMPES)
2. Nobel Prize (NPE)
3. Sveriges Riksbank Prize (SRP)
4. Swedish version of SRP (SSRP)

I think the 1st and 3rd are obviously needed, the title of the article for 1, and the official name for 3. The 4th I don't think is necessary, as I outlined above. But I don't think the 2nd one belongs either, we deal with that sufficiently name in the second sentence, and it's bolded and clear; it doesn't need to be repeated. The reason given by the editor isn't convincing, redirects from NPE would see the redirect notification and the NPE is clearly stated in the second sentence, it's already VERY clear and this repetitive nonsense is hampering readability. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 18:45, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Please see my effort at accommodation. In the first sentence, we start with the article name, then the common name (it's the one everyone is looking for, so it belongs at the beginning). Then, in the next sentence, we introduce the official name. No repetition. Article name first. Common name second. Official name third. Seems the right order to me.--Anthon.Eff (talk) 19:06, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I really don't like your edit and I'd appreciate if you'd self-revert it. I was under the impression that we talk, THEN CHANGE. So lets start with the points of agreement. Yes, NMP should be the first mention. However, we shouldn't split the names onto various sentences, WP:LEAD asks us to list synonyms at the start. Since we're only allowed 1 or 2 alternatives, I think the previous version was fine: include the official as an alternative and have the brief section dealing with the inaccurate common name second, as that is a summary of what is later included in the article. To include the common name we'd need to qualify it with an "inaccurately", the previous version avoided that problem. By removing the , which were, your revision is misleading in suggesting that it might be a Nobel Prize. So please, I'd prefer we settled on a content-neutral version here and then changed the page. I'd like to have someone else weigh in on the debate instead of you-and-I reverting back and forth. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 19:36, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Must have missed that part where WP:LEAD limits us to "1 or 2 alternatives"--you could speed things up if you provide a precise link. As for your suggestion that we put SRPESMAN as the first synonym--it's a name no one's heard, just like the name of the article (NMPES), and it doesn't clear up anything for the reader. Clarity requires the common name.--Anthon.Eff (talk) 21:05, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I thought I provided the links in my revert comments, sorry. Two things about common names. First, it's terribly tied into the debate about the article name. WP:COMMONNAME suggests the article name should be the common one, and WP:NCON says "[if]...one or more English-language equivalents exists, use the most common English-language name", but then goes back and lists 3 objective standards: commonality, official title, and self-identification. The main problem is the current article name fails all 3, and it leaves us confused in picking alternatives. For commonality, Google English results give Sveriges Riksbank Prize 640K, Bank of Sweden Prize 900K, Nobel Memorial Prize 1600K, Nobel Prize in Economics 7200K (with an extra 1400K for Economic Sciences), so NPE wins. But official title is SRP and it is self-identified as SRP (or Bank of Sweden Prize in older announcements) or a shorter "Prize in Economics", with the assumption always being SRPrize, they never prefix it with Nobel. Second, I don't think we have a choice when it comes to synonyms, when we use an unofficial common name, such as Germany or Russia, we always go with official names as the alternative, when we go with official names like UK or Sodium Chloride we pick common names as the alternatives. I don't like relegating the common name to the second sentence, but it seems like the appropriate action in this case. With the current consensus on article title, we're forced to move it down, like in the other "Nobel Prize in XXXX" references such as in Abel Prize or Turing Award. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 22:31, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

First, you invoke WP:LEAD to buttress whatever edit you want to do, but when one scans WP:LEAD, your assertions simply aren't in there. Please prove me wrong. Second issue: you request that I "self-revert", you request that I discuss on the talk page before doing anything on the article, but these are rules that you apparently believe do not apply to your exalted self. Third issue: your username has what?--170 some edits??--but you certainly have more experience than those edits indicate. Who exactly are you? Fourth issue: you are not listening. The common name is the name that is known. Put it right after the compromise article name, a name that nobody knows, so that the reader knows that she is in the right place. Argue against that, please, rather than picking straw dogs and red herrings.--Anthon.Eff (talk) 01:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

What assertions from WP:LEAD? I didn't reference LEAD at all in my previous post. The last time I mentioned it was on listing synonyms and the quote is, under First sentence it says it should answer What (or who) is the subject? and then goes on to say When the page title is used as the subject of the first sentence, it may appear in a slightly different form, and it may include variations, including synonyms. The footnote then shows a listing of the common synonyms in the first sentence. Further down, under Alternate names it says either to include them in the first sentence per the title can be followed in the first line by one or two alternative names in parentheses or the alternate names should be moved out of the first line and into a separate section. It seems we're in a world of 1) official name, 2) common name, not a situation that demands a separate discussion of names per Czech_Republic#Name or Palestine#Origin_of_Name or Iran#Name. That means we read the section under Alternate Names, Use in first sentence, along with the general advice on First sentence, which suggests minimal use of alternate names in the first sentence. On your second point, what? I didn't make any changes, a third user came in, I just corrected his grammar. Third, I am me; I'm not sockpuppetting, I sometimes forget to login, but when I do any non-minor edit, I make sure to login. Fourth, what strawman or red herring? I pointed out that this whole mess is complicated by the consensus choice of NMP as article name. If we had NPE, it'd be easy and if we had SRP it'd be easy. I don't think "user might be confused" is convincing at all. The common name is right there and bolded and explained properly. Are you seriously expecting me to believe we should trash readability, clarity conventions, and accuracy just because someone going to Nobel Prize in Economics would be confused by a redirect to Nobel Memorial Prize in Econ and then forgo reading 2 sentences of the lead section or going to the section called Relation to the Nobel Prize? No, I don't seriously believe that. The problem here is that NPE isn't just a "common name", but a one with some dispute behind it; that's the whole point of the second sentence. There are only 5 Nobel Prizes and this isn't one of them, that's a part of the article that we should (and do) summarize in the lead. That's the first thing this article jumps into, so lets let it do that. We don't need to hamper the first sentence with an extra name when we talk about it immediately afterwords. Also, your revision still persists with that misleading removal I mentioned prior. I'm going to edit to a version of User:Liftarn's version and revert it, so another third opinion can compare the versions. --kittyKAY4 (talk) 03:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

For whoever contributes a 3O here, this is the text from the original 3O request:

Cleanup of lead section has caused some dispute as to the positioning of a common, but inaccurate, name for the prize. One editor wants the additional common name in first sentence, another wants to leave the disputed name in the second sentence in the lead, which deals with the dispute. Problem is exacerbated by already having 2 alternate names in the lead. Basically we just need someone to pick between Rev A and Rev B.

The comment was neutralized per 3O guidelines. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 13:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Third opinion

While I think the summation above is very good, I am going to take the risk of proposing a third solution as a form of compromise:

The Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, officially called the Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel, and commonly referred to as the Nobel Prize in Economics even though it is not one of the five Nobel prizes established in Nobel's will, is awarded for outstanding contributions in the field of economics and considered one of the most prestigious awards in economics.

That sentence is a little long but it gets all the alternative names into the first sentence without being misleading. I hope this helps.Rusty Cashman (talk) 21:58, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps there should be a citation or two for the claim "one of the most prestigious awards in economics" --- just a suggestion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.121.113.151 (talk) 17:29, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

There is one. It is in the lead as it currently stands. When I proposed my compromise wording I didn't bother copying over the citations from the current lead, but I wasn't proposing to delete them.Rusty Cashman (talk) 18:22, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Names

It can be that at this official page (given in the article as a source) the prize is called "the prize in economic sciences in memory of Alfred Nobel" for 1973, but that same page links to this page, where the prize is titled "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel 1973", as it is at the top of the first page. Possibly, some of the different variants are just due to the use of different translators (assuming the original text is Swedish).

All in all, the table given with different names looks like WP:Original research to me. Is there any source that discusses the different names? Classical geographer (talk) 08:49, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

It was called "The Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" in the 1973 press release-- the title at the tops of the pages is recent and irrelevant to anything other than the most current usage. Regarding the possibility that the use of different translators is responsible for some of the variation, this is only speculation and therefore unfit for inclusion unless a reliable source can be found to support it. As it is, I don't think it violates the OR policy, as policy allows for the use of primary sources, so long as only descriptive claims are made. This is the case here; no interpretive claim is made in the article as to the reasons behind or the implications of the use of different English translations over time.

RaveX (talk) 00:19, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm going to concur with Classical geographer to a certain extent about the long list of names. Not so much that it is OR, but that a list of whatever abbreviated name was off-handedly used by a laureate is truly trivial; the list of official translations over the years isn't much better, as the official Swedish name has never changed. I am going to thin out that section, removing the second chart. I hope that prompts discussion of the first one as well.oknazevad (talk) 13:44, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

”Oskar” redirects (via disambiguation) to the proper name ”Academy Award”. So let “Nobel Prize in Economics” redirect to the article with the proper name in the heading.

“Kungliga Vetenskapsakademien” themselves uses the proper name. So did Milton Friedman at the banquet.

This is interesting: recipients themselves read Wikipedia and the discussion pages. How else would you interpret the fact that the last two recipients (like M Friedman and E S Phelps) used the proper phrase “in memory of Alfred Nobel”? (OK Oliver Williamsson said “the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel” but I guess he was overly anxious to get it right.) Let’s see by this December (2011) what the latest recipient has to say.Laelele (talk) 14:10, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Which economist got a Nobel Prize according to himself? (Banquet speeches) And how were the prizes presented?

1969 Jan Tinbergen:” the Alfred Nobel Memorial Prize for Economics” Presentation: “….from the hand of His Majesty, the King, the 1969 Prize in Economic Science dedicated to the memory of Alfred Nobel.”

1970 Paul A Samuelson: “an Alfred Nobel Memorial Awards in Economics” Presentation: “….from the hands of His Majesty, the King, the 1970 Prize in Economic Science dedicated to the memory of Alfred Nobel.”

1971 Simon Kuznets: “a Nobel Memorial Prize” Presentation: “….the Prize in Economic Science, created by the Bank of Sweden in memory of Alfred Nobel, and ask you to step down to receive it from the hands of His Majesty, the King.”

1972 John R. Hicks: “a Prize of the hands of a Prince” Presentation: “….receive your prizes from the hands of His Royal Highness the Crown Prince.”

1973 Vassily Leontief: Presentation: “….from the hand of His Majesty The King the 1973 Prize in Economic Science in Honor of Alfred Nobel.”

1974 Friedrich August von Hayek: “the Nobel Memorial Prize for economic science….a Nobel Prize in economics” Presentation: “….from the hand of His Majesty the King the 1974 Prize in Economic Science dedicated to the memory of Alfred Nobel.”

1975 Tjalling C. Koopermans: “award for economics” Presentation: “….receive your prizes from the hands of His Majesty the King.”

1976 Milton Friedman: “the Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel”…”(I myself have been asked my opinion on everything from a cure for the common cold to the market value of a letter signed by John F. Kennedy. Needless to say, the attention is flattering, but also corrupting. Somehow, we badly need an antidote for both the inflated attention granted a Nobel Laureate in areas outside his competence and the inflated ego each of us is in so much danger of acquiring.”) Presentation: “….is awarded the 1976 Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics….receive your prize from the hands of His Majesty the King.” (Due to the controversy and by decorum M Friedman made sure to get it right, and the presenter didn’t rub it in that it wasn’t a Nobel Prize.)

1977 James E. Meade: “award” Presentation: “….from the hands of His Majesty the King the 1977 Prize in Economic Sciences, dedicated to the memory of Alfred Nobel.”

1978 Herbert A. Simon: ” honor” Presentation: “….the 1978 Alfred Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences ….. receive your prize from His Majesty the King.”

1979 Theodore W. Schutz: “the Nobel Prize in Economics” Presentation: “….the Nobel Memorial Prize in economic sciences from the hands of his Majesty the King.”

1980 Lawrence R. Klein: “the Prize in Economic Science” (“The tax code in US…” This is interesting: You don’t have to pay taxes on certain prizes such as the Nobel Prize. So by the US tax authorities the Prize in Economic Science is a Nobel Prize.) Presentation: “ the Nobel Memorial Prize in economic sciences from the hands of his Majesty the King.”

1981 James Tobin: “the Prize in Economic Science in Memory of Alfred Nobel” Presentation: “….from the hands of His Majesty the King the 1981 Prize in Economic Science dedicated to the memory of Alfred Nobel.”

1982 George J. Stiegler: “the award” Presentation: “this year's Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences…..your Prize from the hands of His Majesty the King.”

1983 Gerard Debreu: “the dazzling recognition” Presentation: “….your Prize from the hands of His Majesty the King.”

1984 Richard Stone: “Prize in Economics” ( “… I want to thank BoS for adding to the other Nobel Prizes this one.”) Presentation: “….this year's Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences….your prize from the hands of His Majesty the King.”

1985 Franco Modigliani: “award” Presentation:

1986 James M. Buchanan Jr.: Presentation:

1987 Robert M. Solow: “this Prize” (...asked to solve the economical problems of US, Norway, Sweden….”) Presentation: “….your Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Science from the hands of His Majesty the King.”

1988 Maurice Allais: “le Prix Nobel d'Economie” Presentation:

1989 Tryggve Haavelmo: “this particular Prize” Presentation: “….from the hand of His Majesty the King, the 1989 Alfred Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences.”

1990 Harry M. Markowitz: “this award” Presentation: “….from the hands of His Majesty the King the 1990 Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel.”

1991 Ronald H. Coase: “the honour the recognition” Presentation: “….from the hands of His Majesty the King, this year's Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel.”

1992 Gary S. Becker: “the superb honor This Prize” Presentation: “….from the hands of His Majesty the King, the 1992 Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel.”

1993 DouglassC. North: “This prize” Presentation: “….the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences from the hands of His Majesty the King.”

1994 John C. Harsanyi: “the Nobel memorial Prize” Presentation: “….your Prizes from the hands of his Majesty the King.”

1995 Robert E. Lucas Jr.: “Nobel Prize in Economics” Presentation: “….the Prize from His Majesty the King.”

1996 James A. Mirrlees: “The Nobel Prizes a prize” Presentation: “….the Prize from his Majesty the King.”

1997 Robert C. Merton: “this ultimate honour” Presentation: “….the Prize from his Majesty the King.”

1998 Amartya Sen:--- Presentation: ”…. the Prize from His Majesty the King.”

1999 Robert A. Mundell:--- Presentation: ” ”…. the Prize from the hands of His Majesty the King.”

2000 Daniel McFadden:--- Presentation: ”…. your Prizes from the hands of His Majesty the King.”

2001 Geogg A. Akerlof: ”the prize” Presentation: “….the Prize from the hands of His Majesty the King.”

2002 Vernon L. Smith: “the economics award” Presentation: “….your Prizes from His Majesty, the King.”

2003 Clive W. J. Granger: Presentation: “….the Prize from His Majesty the King.”

2004 Edward C. Prescott: “this award” Presentation: “….your Prizes from His Majesty the King.”

2005 Robert J. Aumann: “this recognition” Presentation: “….your Prize from His Majesty the King.”

2006 Edmund S. Phelps: “the Prize in Economics in Memory of Alfred Nobel” Presentation: “….your Prize from his Majesty the King.”

2007 Eric S. Maskin: “Economics Prize” Presentation: “….your Prizes from His Majesty the King.”

2008 Paul Krugman: “the Prize in Economic Sciences” Presentation: “….your Prize from His Majesty the King.”

2009 Oliver E. Williamson: “the Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences in memory of Alfred Nobel” (sic) Presentation: “….the Prize from the hands of His Majesty the King.”

2010 Dale T. Mortensen: “Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel” Presentation: “….your Prize from the hands of His Majesty the King.”

2011 Thomas J. Sargent, Christopher A. Sims: “My good and dear friend Chris Sims and I thank you for recognizing… Presentation:“…your Prize from his Majesty the King.”

And finally the one economist to actually receive a Nobel Prize for his work in the field of economics (Nobel Lecture, Oslo City Hall) 2006 Muhammad Yunus: “the Nobel Peace Prize” Presentation: ---

To sum up: three (3) recipients themselves claimed they got a Nobel Prize.

source: nobelprize.org — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laelele (talk • contribs) 09:22, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

The creation of the prize

The part of the creation of the prize misses the fact that the statue of the foundation was changed by the swedish goverment at the same time. The will is specific on the point that only one person can recive the price. During the 60ies the Nobel commities started to notice that most discoveries where made by several persons. Somebody with a good library in Sweden should research the topic and add a section to the article about it. 81.170.188.5 (talk) 19:23, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Ethnic backgrounds?

This edit: [3] reverted a change that I made in an effort to neutralize the presentation on ethnic backgrounds. Specifically, I considered the adding of "only" and the italic "not" to be MOS:OPED. The numbers (60% US; 2 non-European-American; and 4 non-N. American/West Europe) speak for themselves, and the added descriptions to the comparisons (along with the edit summary) seek to assert a point. With WP:BRD in mind, I open the topic for discussion. – S. Rich (talk) 01:04, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

This naming makes Wikipedia commited politically.

The current naming of the article is a political choice, even if it is not desired, and has thus to me changed. All wikipedia articles about countries and states follow their official names, even if these states are known by most known words.. It is only needed to redirect and notice the other names known to refer to them (in this case "Nobel prize of economy", even if it is a wrong naming..). I cannot see why it should be different with this article, more over, in the other languages wikipedia articles, the given name is the official one "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". WE HAVE TO CHANGE THAT, IT IS REALLY A SHAME. Likemonkeys (talk) 15:59, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

Nonsense. We follow WP:COMMONNAME. You're analogy to countries is blatantly incorrect; the article is at Germany, not Federal Republic of Germany (or Bundesrepublik Deutschland for that matter). You start with an incorrect basis. oknazevad (talk) 18:22, 13 May 2013 (UTC)

OK maybe I did not express myself properly. The wikipedia article about Germany is about the country and the society in general, not about the state. The article about the state is indeed well named Federal Republic of Germany (and even if it was not the case, I think it would be a mistake). Anyway, I should not have used this example to argue for the renaming of this article, so nevermind. But I persist, we have to change the name of this article! We follow WP:COMMONNAME so let's apply it: "Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section. When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." Likemonkeys (talk) 11:11, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Actually, Federal Republic of Germany is a redirect to Germany, because the article is about the modern country, and covers its political structures, as well as its history and culture. It's just that the common name of the modern country is "Germany", just as that was the common name of the predecessor states. That follows our policy on common names and primary topics. Seems you don't really know the policies as well as you think, so don't shout how we must do something (which is what writing in all capitals is). It's rude. oknazevad (talk) 15:41, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Google search shows that people usually use the term "Nobel Prize in Economics". We should follow WP:COMMONNAME, so this article should be called Nobel Prize in Economics, which is what it is called by people most of the time. More relevant is what does the scholarly community call it? We can look at google scholar: "nobel prize in economics" vs "nobel memorial prize in economic sciences" Scholars overwhelmingly call it the "Nobel Prize in Economics". So we should follow the majority of scholars and call it the "Nobel Prize in Economics". FurrySings (talk) 14:48, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for having being rude maybe. I hear what you say: ths subject is much more reffered as to "Nobel Prize in Economics". But in WP:COMMONNAME that we follow, this is also written: "Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section. When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.". As the current name is not neutral, according to many people (people having already asked for renaming, different articles on the internet..), I insist that we should change it, and use redirections for the more known other names.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Likemonkeys (talk • contribs) 19:04, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

Ronald Coase

Ronald Coase is described in the article as a heterodox economist. I don't think anyone can reasonably call Coase or New Institutional Economics generally heterodox. This should be removed.86.183.247.6 (talk) 05:31, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

It's quite commonly called heterodox. You can also look at Oliver Williamson's various publications where he takes issue with Chicago School "orthodoxy". ~ trialsanderrors (talk) 14:33, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

@Trialsanderrors: I just added a dubious tag because the article for New institutional economics does not describe it as heterodox. Benjamin (talk) 01:06, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Bizarre article name

The prize in question is unquestionably a political prize free riding on the good reputation of the actual Nobel prizes. Wikipedia has been coerced into taking a political standpoint by using the current name. I don't believe anyone in good faith can claim that this title is NPOV.

Those who have created this prize and those who support its politics have deliberately confused the issue in the media. This confusion is supposedly the reason it must be named something other than what it's actually called, furthering the confusion.

The official English name of this prize is "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel". Unquestionably (talk) 17:57, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

What a joke this name is. It is so simple to undo this. Who is the founder of the prize? The name of the price itself calls it in it so why the autors of Wikipedia insist any more? The prize calls "The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences". Nobel has nothing to do with it (he didnt liked economic scienes, so why do abusing his name then?). Wikipedia is made by people. And all economic scientist should know about how stubborn people can be. So, who does the people follow? Economic scientist or Alfred Nobel? I follow Alfred Nobel, even if i dont accept anything he had in mind. What is your opinion? [12.11.2017 CEST] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:810A:8400:6C20:21C6:5877:F5F6:ADC2 (talk) 04:55, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

WP:PRESERVE compliance on a questionable citation

Here it is: Guerrien, Bernard (15 March 2004). "A science too human? Economics". Post-autistic economics review (4). commonly called the "Nobel prize for economics" although from this it does not follow that it is one

This article contains utter nonsense like "Yet for a long time some economists have, in spite of everything, undertaken “experiments”. It was not, however, until 2003 that the profession took a little interest in this kind of approach (Nobel Prize awarded jointly to Daniel Kahneman and Vernon Smith)."

The Nobel is awarded largely for work that has withstood the test of time. Interest in experimental economics was widespread before 2003. We've got a "journal" here called "Post-autistic economics." I have to wonder if this is much better than a Galileo Gambit group blog that happens to feature a more formal, scholarly style. Yakushima (talk) 17:34, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

The Nobel Foundation obviously approves of calling the econ Nobel a Nobel Prize(®)

Read the section, "Spreading information about the Nobel Prize." [4] The Foundation is clearly vested in protecting the use of the term. Yet it has not moved legally against the Bank of Sweden for its use of what is clearly a trademark of the Foundation[5], in all the years since the econ Nobel was established. Surely, the legal owner of the trademark "Nobel Prize" is the final arbiter of improper use? Yet on their own website, they treat the econ Nobel as close to equally as they can under the limiting terms of Alfred Nobel's will. If they don't have a "correctness" issue with "Nobel Prize in Economics", why should anyone else? Yakushima (talk) 07:00, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Further to that point: the prize was established with a donation from the Bank of Sweden to the Nobel Foundation.[6] So it's not as if the bank went off and created a Nobel Prize without consulting with the Foundation. Yakushima (talk) 08:08, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

WP:BOLD edits since made in accordance. Yakushima (talk) 08:58, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

It is erroneous that this prize is referred to as a Nobel Prize, even though it is commonly designated as such in print and in conversation. Analogous to this is the way people use the term light-year colloquially as a measure of time, as in "I haven't seen her in light-years!," when in actuality it is a measure of distance. Just because something is stated incorrectly by large numbers of people does not make it correct. Just because the Nobel Foundation has not sued does not make the statement of the Economics Memorial Prize as being a Nobel Prize correct, unless of course you believe that the litmus test of what is and is not the truth is whether or not a lawsuit is involved, and just because the Bank of Sweden bought its way into a "Nobel Prize" with a generous donation does not make the designation accurate, either. PJtP (talk) 15:43, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

The Nobel Foundation, owner of the the tradename "Nobel Prize", refers to the economics prize as a "category of the Nobel Prize" on its own website. See the citations I added. You are welcome to go argue with the owner of the term, who must certainly understand its legal definition better than any of us here. Yakushima (talk) 15:48, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting points that you made. Now, the Nobel Foundation states on their website "The prize in economic sciences is not a Nobel Prize." If today you still think that the Nobel Foundation is an important authority as to whether something is to be called a Nobel Prize or not, this is an argument against calling it one. --2A02:8071:195:2C00:0:0:0:FAF3 (talk) 12:01, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Rename the article

I would like to revisit the matter of the title of this article.

Likemonkeys gave a perfect policy interpretation of the balance to find between common name and neutrality. Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel is commonly used in every official publication or specialized article and assuch qualifies as a common name.

"But in WP:COMMONNAME that we follow, this is also written: "Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section. When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.". As the current name is not neutral, according to many people (people having already asked for renaming, different articles on the internet..), I insist that we should change it, and use redirections for the more known other names.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Likemonkeys (talk • contribs) 19:04, 17 May 2013 (UTC)"

This rename will allow to avoid any confusion for the status of the price. The introduction clarifies righteously the relationship between the price and the Nobel Foundation. Oh, and this title contains every word allowing to identify the subject of the article : Nobel, Prize, Economic. --Dereckson (talk) 10:31, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

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"other" Nobel Prizes

If we are going to follow the Nobel Foundation's lead that this prize is not a Nobel Prize, then we cannot refer to the "other Nobel Prizes" as that is logically inconsistent. If the prizes in literature, physics, etc are the "other" Nobels, that means (by the nature of the English language) that this prize is also a Nobel Prize. --Khajidha (talk) 09:46, 18 October 2018 (UTC)

"same ceremony"

The lede says "Laureates are announced with the Nobel Prize laureates, and receive the award at the same ceremony". That is clearly not true, because the Peace prize has a different ceremony (in Oslo not Stockholm) and is misleading (evidence: one of my friends reading it was misled). The source (Britannica) doesn't say quite this, it refers to a ceremony which, I assume the other Nobel Prizes are awarded at. I can't think of how to work the lede better to make this clear. Also, Britannica does not seem like the best of sources here surely? Francis Davey (talk) 21:30, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 19 April 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved buidhe 00:15, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

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Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences → Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences – Title of this article need an update. Many things have changed since 2009 (last time we discussed as WP:RM). The Nobel Foundation doesn't use the current name and doesn't call it a Nobel. Danish WP, Dutch WP, Swedish WP, and many other use Sveriges Riksbank Prize as a name. The title which Wikipedia uses becomes a common title and this what currently is happening. See search results: "Nobel+Memorial+Prize+in+Economic+Sciences"&client=opera&hs=Y8w&source=lnms&tbm=nws&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi30bfsi_XoAhVdVRUIHRoUA8wQ_AUoAnoECDwQBA&biw=1326&bih=627 5,560 v "Sveriges+Riksbank+Prize"&client=opera&hs=zwH&tbm=nws&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwilmP33jfXoAhUgTxUIHYPeCWsQ_AUICigB&biw=1326&bih=627&dpr=1 4700 so clearly gap is narrow and we should prefer later results.

Also, read Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Economic_Sciences#Controversies_and_criticisms section. Störm (talk) 18:41, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. And also see Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2020_February_22#Category:Nobel_laureates_in_Economics. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:53, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose. Narrowed, but still not the common name. oknazevad (talk) 13:06, 22 April 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose for several reasons:

1. The proposed "official" name is not the common name. WP:COMMONNAME reads: "Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title." The proposed name is also not even the "official" name, which is "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel."
2. What other language wikis do is not relevant to the English-language Wikipedia. WP:COMMONNAME goes on to say: "it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources)"
3. The proposer's statement that "The title which Wikipedia uses becomes a common title and this what currently is happening" is ahistorical and unsupported. The proposer's most recent edits refer to the current title as "your own made name," suggesting that the proposer is not aware that the use of "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences," including in award speeches at the Nobel ceremony, predate the existence of Wikipedia by decades, as documented earlier on this talk page. The fact is that in English, patterns like "John Doe Memorial Golf Outing" is far more common than the pattern that results from the direct translation from Swedish, "Golf Outing in Memory of John Doe."
4. Per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY, "The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." The current title is much more recognizable than the "official" name. Both "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" and "Nobel Prize in Economics" are more common in English than "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences"
5. Per WP:NATURALNESS, "The title is one that readers are likely to look or search for and that editors would naturally use to link to the article from other articles. Such a title usually conveys what the subject is actually called in English." "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" is used almost twice as often as "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences," and the only related term that is used more often (by a lot) is "Nobel Prize in Economics."
6. The title "Nobel Prize in Economics," though the most common name in English, is already avoided due to the "controversy" noted by the proposer, but the use of an even less common name (and the proposer's repeated edits removing the note that the title is in fact commonly referred to as the "Nobel Prize in Economics" elevate the proposer's concern with making sure no one ever calls a prize awarded by the Nobel Foundation a "Nobel Prize" over the needs and interests of average Wikipedia users and is thus non-NPOV. Note that even the Nobel Foundation groups it in with the other prizes as a "Nobel Prize" when it is easier to do so. In their press release for the 2020 prizes, they use the official name of the prize but their announcement begins "This year’s Nobel Prize announcements will take place from 5-12 October." The prize that will be awarded on 12 October is this prize.

RaveX (talk) 19:19, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"Not a Nobel Prize"

The following assertion in the introduction:

"While it is not one of the original Nobel Prizes established by Alfred Nobel's will in 1895, it is generally regarded and often referred to as the Nobel award for Economics."

cites https://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/economic-sciences/ as evidence to back up its claim.

But "Nobel award for Economics" does not even appear on that page and actually says it is "Not a Nobel Prize":

"Not a Nobel Prize

The Prize in Economic Sciences is not a Nobel Prize. In 1968, Sveriges Riksbank (Sweden’s central bank) instituted “The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel”, and it has since been awarded by the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences according to the same principles as for the Nobel Prizes that have been awarded since 1901. The first Prize in Economic Sciences was awarded to Ragnar Frisch and Jan Tinbergen in 1969."

The actual names used are "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" and "Prize in Economic Sciences".

If there is a mistaken common name, it is Nobel Prize in Economics. The article should say something like: The Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel is not a Nobel Prize, although it is commonly mistakenly called Nobel Prize in Economics.

The current name of the article "Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences" seems to be made up by Wikipedia editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.67.60.240 (talk) 10:06, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Good point, good source. At the least, I would suggest changing the current phrase "Although not technically a Nobel Prize" to "Although explicitly not a Nobel Prize", with a reference to this webpage. The reason for this is that one should not make this distinction appear as a mere technicality, e.g. based on hair-splitting legal considerations, when the awarding institution itself makes that point explicit. --2A02:8071:195:2C00:0:0:0:FAF3 (talk) 12:07, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

"it is generally regarded and often referred to as the Nobel award for Economics"

This assertion "it is generally regarded and often referred to as the Nobel award for Economics" is not backed up by its source: https://www.nobelprize.org/nomination/economic-sciences/

The phrase "Nobel award for Economics" does not even appear on that web page.

Moreover it states "The Prize in Economic Sciences is not a Nobel Prize".

Controversies and criticisms

It says in this part that the socialist economist Joan Robinson was "snubbed" for a Nobel Prize, but I do not think she was ever even considered. In her Wikipedia page, it states she was a strong supporter of the North Korean dictatorship and even of Mao's Cultural Revolution. It would be a bad joke to award her a Nobel Prize in economics.

These edits have been reverted with any reason given except see talk page: https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Economic_Sciences&type=revision&diff=1007742305&oldid=1007741983 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.67.60.240 (talk) 22:34, 19 February 2021 (UTC)

There shouldn't even be a "criticism" section in this article, which reflects nothing but the political biases of the sources (and the editors who push to include them).

There is a serious problem on Wiki with editors attacking economics as if it's a wildly controversial subject. In fact it's a wildly recognized legitimate subject and science in academia, both in Europe and North America.

What purpose does the criticism section serve readers? Nothing except conveying the impression that the Prize in Economic Sciences is not a legitimate award, which by extension implies that the achievements of the recipients of the prize are not legitimate achievements.

Alfred Nobel would've had no reason to include an "economics" prize in his will in 1895. That was right in the middle of the marginal revolution, as economics was transforming from a branch of philosophy and literature into a mathematical science. It was only in the 20th Century that economics emerged as a unique branch of the social sciences. Nobel didn't consider a prize for philosophy in his will, and thus wouldn't have thought to include any particular branch of philosophy, and may have even considered his literature prize to encompass all the various philosophical schools of thought.Jonathan f1 (talk) 18:28, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Even though this is an older discussion, I feel compelled to reply to the points stated above, for they betray an ill-conceived and lacking understanding of history, bordering on distortion (and, ironically, reflect what you have called political biases).

Alfred Nobel intended the Nobel prize to go to those "who have during the previous year rendered the greatest service to mankind." – His chosen fields were physics, chemistry, physiology/medicine, literature and the pursuit of peace. I don't think we should engage in speculations about what his true intentions were, but if you were to press me, I would say that he probably excluded economics for the same reason that he excluded philosophy, other emerging scientific disciplines, as well as music, architecture and other art forms not suited to a literary format – he just didn't believe that these rendered such a great service to mankind that they were deserving of a prize in his name — remember, the prize didn't start out as the most prestigious award in its respective field. The disciplines were chosen according to his personal tastes, basically, and he obviously leaned towards fields related to engineering (physics & chemistry), humanitarian work (medicine / pursuit of peace) and high-spirited, uplifting endeavors in general (pursuit of peace / literature).

The Marginal Revolution did not, in fact, transform economics from a branch of philosophy and literature [??; is this supposed to be a reference to The Fable of the Bees?] into a mathematical science – rather, it was at most one part of that transformation, which started before the Marginal Revolution and included many more figures and thinkers (e.g. Vilfredo Pareto). Also, all academic disciplines started as a branch of philosophy and then specialized later on. Your assertion that It was only in the 20th Century that economics emerged as a unique branch of the social sciences. is incredibly incorrect; in fact, economics as a specialized discipline predates most other social sciences, and e.g. sociology emerged as economic thinkers branching out into social research more generally (Marx, Pareto, Weber, etc.).

To that point, something can be recognized as a legitimate subject and science and be a wildly controversial subject at the same time, that's not a contradiction. You have asked, rhetorically, What purpose does the criticism section serve readers?; the criticism section serves the same purpose as all other criticism sections, to inform the reader that the subject of the article is, in fact, controversial (see WP:CRITICISM). If there are reliable sources which document criticism and controversies, they shouldn't be excluded from the article, since that would violate WP:NPOV. Your answer, which said Nothing except conveying the impression that the Prize in Economic Sciences is not a legitimate award, which by extension implies that the achievements of the recipients of the prize are not legitimate achievements. is just your opinion, and is an over-interpretation of the article's content. The section conveys simply that this prize is controversial for a number of reasons. That is all. TucanHolmes (talk) 17:07, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

IP you provide a political argument as to why she deservedly wasn’t awarded the prize. This is an ex post facto argument, you base it on current conceptions of these regimes and equate her historical praise as unconditional praise. I agree these are horrible regimes, but if you wish to argue why she should not be mentioned, then please provide peer reviewed reliable sources that provide a coherent argument that supports your view. Wikipedia aims for neutrality, it’s not perfect but sources are the best resource we’ve got in attempting to distil the truth. TL;DR, please provide sources. Sadke4 (talk) 09:38, 7 March 2022 (UTC)