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RfC: Should Tesla's birthplace be changed?

Moved from Talk:Nikola Tesla

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Should the text describing Tesla's place of birth be changed from "Smiljan, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia)" to "Smiljan, Croatia, Austrian Empire"? - MrX 15:28, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• Yes. I also think that the quote "I was born in Croatia", from his letter to The New York Times Oct. 19, 1934, should be explicitly added, as part of the ref, or as a footnote, in support of this. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:41, 8 June 2014 (UTC)
• No. Speaking as a Croatian, and one familiar with the history of period, it would be inaccurate to refer to the Croatian Military Frontier as "Croatia". The Croatian Military Frontier was a segment of the Military Frontier, an area under military administration answerable directly to the Imperial government in Vienna. The proposed wording suggests Tesla was born in the Kingdom of Croatia, an Austrian crown land significantly to the north.

I suggest "Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia)". -- Director (talk) 16:08, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

So, do you think Tesla's own 1934 view counts for nothing here? Or is it just that the political situation was different in 1934 than in 1856 when he was born? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:42, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

The situation was different indeed, but there was still no "Croatia" there in any administrative sense. In 1934 the area was long a part of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia, a unitary and independent post-WWI nation state. But the thing to keep in mind is that the area of Smiljan is and was traditionally regarded as part of the region of Croatia (hence the name "Croatian Military Frontier"), but was nevertheless not technically part of any "Croatia" in the administrative sense, neither at the time of Tesla's birth, nor in 1934. That's why Tesla said he was "born in Croatia". He was referring to the "unofficial" region, which was present in the minds of contemporaries all throughout his lifetime.

So in a sense, its sort of like him saying "my Southern homeland", if he was born in the American South. You wouldn't describe his birthplace as "Charleston, the South, United States" would you? -- Director (talk) 00:57, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Your opinion on Tesla's statement is just that, an opinion. He meant what he said. He was born in Croatia. Ok, I see you argumentation, we can't simply rely on his statement. I agree, that is why we are discussing so long. However, that statement clearly shows that Tesla considered Croatia to be his homeland. The article should mention that explicitly, since Croatia is somehow diminished.

Asdisis (talk) 01:21, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Not changed. This isn't a change of Tesla's birthplace. It's a better clarification. The suggestion is more consistent with Tesla's own statement, and the sources i presented above.

It is not in any way in conflict with the present construct. It's just more intelligible. Also it does not have dual interpretations, as i explained in previous comments.

In my opinion, Tesla's own opinion that Croatia is his homeland should be explicitly written in the article, since Croatia is somehow diminished as Tesla's homeland in the whole context, which is the opposite of Tesla's opinion.

Here is another of Tesla's quotes: "I see it as my duty, as a son of my homeland, to help the City of Zagreb in every way by advice and deed" , May, 24, 1892. , Zagreb [1]

The picture is the memorial plaque in Croatia that contains Tesla's quote. Asdisis (talk) 16:11, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• No . Smiljan at time of Tesla birth was part of the Military Frontier (more preciselly, in the so called Croatian section). The Military Frontier was under direct rule from Vienna (not Zagreb). Speculating land rights, what happend later and so on is just OR. Tesla was also known for his Yugoslavism, so later in life he obviously potentiated the fact that he was born in Croatia, forcing the ideia of a separate Croatian land, so it could be united with Serbia and thus forming a united South-Slavic land which would include his birthplace. We can include everything which is found in RS´s but not changing the correct place of his birthplace. Changing Croatian Military Frontier to Croatia is just incorrect. Having "Croatian" Military Frontier instead of Military Frontier in between Smiljan and Austria is already enough for precition. FkpCascais (talk) 16:08, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Even though you may feel disinclined, the article should nevertheless make it clear where his birthplace is today. No one in the US knows what part of the the Austrian Empire became which nation state. I think "Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia)" is both precise and informative in every respect. It may have a bit too many "Croat"s in there for Serbian tastes, but we should get past that: this is about merely the location of birth. -- Director (talk) 16:15, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I do not agree with negative opinions. I gave several valid sources. I doubt your understanding of complex history of the Military zone can overweight those sources. As MrX told, note that Wikipedia forbids the use of original research and articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible.

Bottom line is that your explanations can't overweight those sources I presented.

However i agree that the suggestion of "Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia)" if better than the present construct.

However, Croatia was divided at that time to civil Croatia, and Military frontier. That does not negate the claim that Tesla was born in Croatia. As i said earlier, Military frontier was made from Croatian land, and Croatia had never renounced that territories, although it permitted Empire's administration.

It would not be inaccurate to refer to the Croatian Military Frontier as "Croatia". Croatia ( Croatian parliament) had done so, and that was not disputed.

And what should "It may have a bit too many "Croat"s in there for Serbian tastes" mean??? Should we also hide Tesla's statements where he clearly stated Croatia as his homeland?? Is that why Croatia is diminished in this whole article?

Asdisis (talk) 16:30, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• No. It wasn't called Croatia at the time, so the present wording or Asdisis's amendment make more sense. --Bermicourt (talk) 16:28, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I gave four valid sources, while the ones who are opposing this request gave only their opinion which is limited to their knowledge about political history of that time. They need valid sources to confirm their claims, otherwise we can't know if those claims are correct.

We can't take their personal opinions over as much as four valid sources i presented.

Asdisis (talk)

• As it happens, Tesla was born during the nine years of Bach's absolutism, at a time when all of Croatia, both the civil-government-controlled part and the Military Frontier part, was under a rather harsh Austrian regime. Using "Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire" seems like a sensible compromise, because it's specific as well as immediately descriptive. Didn't we have this variant in there before at some point? --Joy [shallot] (talk) 19:45, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Do countries cease to exist when they are governed by other countries, whether benign or otherwise, and whether temporarily or not? e.g. England and Great Britain. I guess this has all been debated here before. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:54, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

It's not that simple. At the time Tesla was born, the Military Frontier had been separated from the rest of Croatia for over two and a half centuries (since 1578). It was known that it was the Croatian Military Frontier, but it was still primarily the Military Frontier, not simply Croatia (a fact much protested by Croatians at the time, obviously). This was also reflected in Tesla's life - the article mentions at some point that he was on a Frontier scholarship. And when the Frontier was finally abolished in 1881, Tesla did not live there any more. Again, using the term "Croatian Military Frontier" seems like an appropriate compromise. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 21:46, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, sources before your opinion which is no more relevant than ours. If my sources had no problem with stating Croatia, what is the reason to keep the present formulation based on less relevant source? Looking administratively it is not simply Croatia. Looking politically it is Croatian land under military control of the Empire's high command. And looking culturally it is all Croatia. People associate culturally. That is why Tesla said that Croatia is his homeland, and that is why for someone born in Vichy France today we say he was born in France, not The Third Reich.

Asdisis (talk) 01:39, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Sure, and the specific phrasing accommodates that. It doesn't omit the fact that Lika was in Croatia, and it doesn't omit the fact that it was MF at the time. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 07:03, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

Military zone is not a political entity. It's wrong to make a distinction between Croatia and Military zone. Military zone is Croatian land under the military administration of the Empire. I repeat, military administration. It has never been disputed that Military frontier belongs to Croatia. Bach absolutism brought Austrian control to Croatia. That does not mean Croatia seized to exist. According to your logic, someone born in Zagreb at that time was not born in Croatia because Croatia was under Austrian control. People who lived in Military zone had no connection to any other entity within Austrian Empire apart from Croatia. Military administration does not dispute that Military zone is Croatia. We can see that in 1868. all of that i have been talking about was confirmed, and in 1881. Military zone was abolished. Croatian right based on continuity was recognized. That is important, right based on continuity. For conclusion I again must repeat what MrX told, note that Wikipedia forbids the use of original research and articles should rely on secondary sources whenever possible. Only I have presented valid sources. So please, instead of your opinion about the geo-political history, present valid sources. MrX presented the quote from Brittanica. I have presented 4 sources with more understandable construction, as Brittanica's quote is somehow less understandable. It can be (not necessarily) interpreted in the wrong way, opposite to Tesla's statement, and opposite to my valid sources.

Asdisis (talk) 20:28, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I'd tend to agree that more specialist sources are to be given more weight here than Encyclopedia Brittanica. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:40, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

There are no doubts that the region Tesla was born is a historical Croatian region. However, what matters here is the situation at time of his birth. Kingdom of Croatia was not independent, and even as a sub-unit didn´t even had authority over Smiljan at time of Tesla´s birth. Croatian Military Frontier for the missfortune of some here, is not the same as Croatia, so we can´t misslead readers on that subject.

Also, arguments such as "someone born in Zagreb at that time was not born in Croatia because Croatia was under Austrian control" are really the great deal of the issue here. Exactly, a person born in Zagreb at that time was born in Austro-Hungary, and not Croatia. Just as a person born in Sofia was born in Ottoman Empire, not Bulgaria. FkpCascais (talk) 21:24, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Tesla didn't begin his letter to the New York Times by saying "I was born in the Croatian Military Frontier." Why was that, do you think? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:21, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

That is far from being a valid argument regarding the geo-historical political precition. Tesla may have said that because at time he gave that interview the region was part of Croatia, just as a person born in Istria during the 1930s (at time belonging to Italy) would say nowadays that he was born in Croatia. FkpCascais (talk) 21:28, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

No, no, just the opposite. We wouldn't mislead readers, we would follow our valid sources. Now you are accusing 4 persons who wrote whole books about Tesla that they are misleading readers. In fact, the present construction is misleading. That much is clear because we are arguing here with as much as four sources present, and Tesla's own statement that he was born in Croatia, on the other hand we have only Brittanica with unclear formulation that can be interpreted in both ways. The present construction is very much misleading. That is why it needs to be changed according to valid sources. Again I repeat, post valid sources so we do not discuss someone's opinion. Your opinion can not overweight presented sources. Unless, someone posts other sources that clearly say different, suggestion should be accepted.

Asdisis (talk) 21:37, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

There is nothing missleading or unclear when someone says Smiljan, Austro-Hungary. I beleave no one here is disputing Smiljan was part of Austro-Hungary, am I right? Now, if we want to add further further information, we cannot go into OR claiming he was born in a subdivision (Croatia in this case) which had no authority over Smiljan at time of his birth. You arguments how Croatia "allowed" that territory to become part of the Military Frontier as if they "borrowed" that territory is quite unique. Yes, Kingdom of Croatia did existed as a subdivision, but lets not forget it was a subdivision subordinate to the Empire. Also, the fact that the area was later reincorporated to K. of Croatia doesn´t justify ignoring the period Military Frontier was separated and under direct control from Vienna. You are basically proposing we ignore Military Frontier. I would even say that Croatian Military Frontier, if we want to go that way, would more easily be placed under Military Frontier teritory, rather that Kingdom of Croatia.

Regarding sources, just Google "Tesla Military Frontier" and choose whichever you want from the millions of results defending my point. FkpCascais (talk) 21:52, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Sources i presented are very clear. I can understand that you do not agree with my explanation, I, with the same relevance, do not have to agree with yours. That i why accepted MrX's argument and found valid sources. You can notice i gave a link to one of the sources which dealt with the history of that area, so you can see why that source mentioned Croatia explicitly. I can not accept your invitation to "just google".

Asdisis (talk) 22:43, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Just a note to both of you: there was no "Austria-Hungary" in 1856. Its the Austrian Empire you're talking about. To be perfectly blunt, you should stop quibbling and agree on what I'm proposing: "Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia)".

@Asidis, Tesla was referring to the region of Croatia, not any state or administrative entity, and it would be inappropriate to suggest otherwise with the formulation you propose. Presented in that way ",Croatia" suggests he was in fact born in a state called "Croatia".

@Fkp, it would be inappropriate, and clear POV, to omit his subdivision of the massive and complex Austrian Empire. An unnecessary omission, just like the omission of where Smiljan is today. -- Director (talk) 01:38, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think i said Austro-Hungary... As I said it in my previous post. People associate with culture. I'm not using Tesla's statement as a prof of geo-political situation at that time. However this is his statement and it reflects his opinion. For Tesla, his homeland is Croatia. My formulation is based on presented sources. I tend to somehow agree with your suggestion, but it still somehow can be interpreted that Military frontier had nothing to do with Croatia. If people have problem with omitting Military zone, why then not "Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Croatia, Austrian Empire". I have seen the term "modern day Croatia" misused too many times and i do not think its appropriate because it can be interpreted that those areas had nothing to do with Croatia. That isn't the case, because culturally those areas were Croatia, and cultural association is the most important for the people living there, not some complicated administration.

Asdisis (talk) 02:16, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

What you fail to realize, as I said, is that the formulation you propose suggests the man was born in a state called "Croatia". And since there actually was one state by that name at the time, it makes it all the more confusing. It would not be inaccurate to say "Tesla's homeland was Croatia", that's true, just as he says - but to state he was born in "Croatia, Austrian Empire" suggests he was born in the Kingdom of Croatia..

I do nevertheless acknowledge your point of view.. A proper formulation for the point of view you espouse would go something like "Tesla was born in the region of Croatia, part of the Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire". That might be a good compromise? -- Director (talk) 03:14, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

User:Director, you are the only reasonable here to discuss with. As i said, Croatia is a political entity within Austrian Empire. Military zone is part of Croatia that is militarized and under military command. I already suggested "Smiljan, Croatian military zone, Croatia, Austrian Empire". It stated that Military frontier is within Croatia which is within Austrian Empire. What is your opinion on that? You compromise is also somewhat acceptable, it just needs to be a little understandable, but I basically agree with your suggestion. What is your opinion on "Nikola Tesla was born in militarized region of Croatia, Croatain Military frontier, Austrian Empire". Maybe a mix between those two suggestions presented right now. Or a similar construct consistent with your suggestion.Asdisis (talk) 22:06, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

@"Croatia is a political entity within Austrian Empire. Military zone is part of Croatia that is militarized and under military command." No. You are confusing the Kingdom of Croatia, with the wider, unofficial region of Croatia. The Kingdom of Croatia was a political entity within the Austrian Empire, and the Croatian Military Frontier was NOT part of that entity. Both the Kingdom of Croatia and the Croatian Military Frontier were within the unofficial region of Croatia. But they were completely separate: the Croatian Military frontier was not in any way a part of the Kingdom of Croatia. Savvy? -- Director (talk) 11:13, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Director please look at the sources provided at the bottom of this discussion. Asdisis (talk) 11:28, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• In order to avoid further unecessary discussions such as this one, I am proposing that we should follow something some other Wiki Projects did, which is to addopt a simple formula of city+country for birthplace in infoboxes excluding the intermediate subdivisions. That would simplify things to Smiljan, Austro-Hungary. Then in the text we can expand by saying that Smiljan is nowadays in Croatia, and that at time of his birth it was part of the Croatian Military Frontier and that the area he was born in shortly afterwords was reincorporated to the Kingdom of Croatia which was a subdivision of the Austro-Hungarian Empire all the way until 1918, when it became part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes. How about that? I beleave not a single fact is disputed in my proposal. FkpCascais (talk) 21:39, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

• This is an ongoing RfC, not an "unnecessary discussion". Please don't disrupt alter this RfC with tangential discussion. Please create a new RfC or threaded discussion if you want to solicit comments on an alternate proposal.- MrX 21:52, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

I am free to consider a discussion unecessary when it was debated already so many times in the past. If you wasn´t present at that time it is not my fault. I will open a new thread with a new proposal. FkpCascais (talk) 21:57, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

The discussion is really unnecessary since one side have 4 sources, and the other side presented no sources apart from Brittanica which has unclear formulation, and can not have the same relevance to any of the specialized sources. We should accept a formulation from the sources. Austrian Empire is divided into distinct cultural and political entities. That is why it is necessary to write from which entity Tesla came. All of the sources state Croatia and i do not see the reason to oppose those sources.

Asdisis (talk) 22:07, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Oh, please Asdisis, I just told you above to Google "Tesla Military Frontier" and see 51 million results... But OK, here are some:

• "He was born to a Serbian family in Smiljan near Gospić, Lika, (the Military Frontier of Austria-Hungary, now in Croatia)" at teslauniverse.com
• "Nikola Tesla's birthplace house and his Serbian Orthodox Church in Smiljan, Lika, "Military Frontier" of Austro-Hungarian Border against Turkish invasion..." at teslasociety.com
• "As Serbs living in the Austrian Military Frontier, his grandparents on both..." at "Tesla: Inventor of the Electrical Age", Page 32, by W. Bernard Carlson.
• "During his first year he had a fellowship from the Military Frontier Authority and hence had no financial..." at "Tesla: Man Out of Time", Page 39, by Margaret Cheney.
• "Tesla was a scientific genius born 1856 of Serbian parents in the village of Smiljan, in what was then the Military Frontier." at teslaplay.com

I have to take a break now, but I will later follow directly into Google Books ad see more results there. I also found this: Talk:Nikola Tesla/Nationality and ethnicity. FkpCascais (talk) 22:39, 8 June 2014 (UTC)

Don't list webpages as your sources. I'll study other valid sources. Also, Croatia is a broader term than Military frontier, so when mentioned Military frontier does not negate Croatia. Croatian military frontier, civil Croatia, Slavonian military frontier are all parts of Croatia, also Dalmatia.

Apart from websites which can't be viewed as valid sources, you mentioned 2 books. Second one ( "Tesla: Man Out of Time", Page 39, by Margaret Cheney.) does not tell anything useful to this discussion. First source is more interesting. I haven't fount the direct quote in the book. Maybe you can assist. But apart from that the book elaborates on the question of our discussion. To quote directly: "At that time, Croatia was the military frontier distinct of the Austro-Hungaryan Empire and the area was sometimes referred to as the Krajina[(Military border, Military frontier)]" (Tesla: Inventor of the Electrical Age By W. Bernard Carlson).

So even your sources confirm the claim that Tesla was born in Croatia. I must, however, say that I have some reserves to this statement and I won't add that quote to my list of 4 sources since it has some incorrectness. Firstly, not all Croatia was called Military zone as stated. There was also "civil" Croatia. Also note that some sources can omit to mention Croatia since Military zone is a part of Croatia (although that isn't fully correct because Military zone is not a political entity). My sources explicitly said Croatia, and we already know that on those areas military zone was established. So to say, my sources have a broader definition. They clearly define Military zone as a part of Croatia. If you find a source that only mentions Military zone (as you did), that can't overturn a broader definition set by my sources. I agree Tesla was born in Military frontier, i just claim that Military frontier is not a political entity, but a part of Croatia, a somewhat strange , but nevertheless a part of Croatia.

Military zone is just a form of defensive organization. It does not carry any political relevance. Of course the Empire had direct control over Military zone, since Military zone is just what the name says, military form of organisation. Maybe it confuses you when i say that Empire had direct control so somehow that is not Croatia. The control over those areas had the high military command. This isn't ordinary land, its militarized defensive area. Of course that military command had control over defensive zone, who else should have control than military command?That does not make the Military zone a separate entity. That does not negate that Military zone is Croatia, but for defensive purposes the high military command had control over those areas. Maybe i was not quite clear when i said that Croatian parliament claimed right to that land. It had not claimed right, it requested that those areas are returned to civil administration, since there was no danger of Ottoman invasion. To be returned, not politically but administratively. It was never disputed that Military zone was Croatia. I do not understand what more i can say. Why won't you accept valid sources. Even your sources are confirming my claim. To sum it up. Military zone is a part of Croatia which is for defensive purposes under military control of the Empire's high military command. Tesla was not born in organisational unit, but in Croatia.

Asdisis (talk) 01:11, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• No I consider his birthplace should reflect the name of the formal administrative subdivision that existed at the time, ie "Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire". The Croatian Military Frontier was a subdivision of the Military Frontier which was administered directly from Vienna. Peacemaker67 (send... over) 03:17, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• No, per Peacemaker67 and Director. 23 editor (talk) 11:43, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. As there have been no outright objections, and regardless of the outcome of this RfC, I have added a suggested note in the article, in the form of a reference, to clarify Tesla's own clear view on the matter. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:24, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• I object to mentioning this. It's parenthetical, casts doubt on the preceding sentence, and would confuse readers. I also think that a detailed analysis of where Tesla was born does not belong in this article.- MrX 13:22, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• Oh dear... doubt, eh? As if apparently cast-iron geographical facts could ever be open to political interpretation, you mean? You're saying that a direct quote from a letter he presonally wrote to The New York Times has no place in this article about him? I'm a little surprised by that. I fail to see what could be a more robust source of Tesla's own views on this subject. There is no doubt over where he was born of course. It was Smiljan. We just have a disagreement over which country it belonged to at the time. Thanks, anyway, for the courtesy of leaving an explanatory note. Apologies for mis-spelling the word "born". Martinevans123 (talk) 13:35, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• I think it's important to convey this information clearly. To state that he was born in the Austrian Empire, and then to almost apologetically state that he said he was born in Croatia is confusing. The only way I would support such content is if it were made clear that Croatia was a territory within the Austrian Empire, and that it later became an independent country. The problem with that is that it is not really of central importance to Tesla himself, or his contributions to science and engineering. I read some historical newspaper articles yesterday, and they alternately say he was from The Austrian Empire, Croatian Austria, Austria-Hungary, Serbian Austria, Serbia/Servia, Yugoslavia, etc. I don't think this article should be used to give a geography lesson to readers looking for biographic information about Tesla.- MrX 14:18, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• I quite agree with you that this article is no place for a geography lesson. Some of the solutions proposed above suggested to me that it might become one. As for the importance to Tesla himself of his birthplace - I think you need to read that 1934 letter of his again. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:23, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• No. The place wasn't called Croatia at the time. We do not tell readers what to think, we simply describe the situation on the ground at the time of his birth. Tesla's 1934 letter has no relevance, it does not change the description of the place where he was born (i.e. an opinion of a subject won't changes his own biographical history). Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 13:58, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I can see the validity of your argument. And that is a general rule across Wikipedia, as I understand it. But do you think Tesla's own views on this subject simply don't matter? Or are we over-interpreting what he said in his letter? As I thought I had made clear, I believe this is a separate question to the RfC question. Sorry if this is muddying the waters. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:08, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Per this question per WP:V Tesla's own views on this subject simply don't matter. Content on Wikipedia for such a statement is derived from reliable, third-party sources. Tesla is neither. It could all be stated in another section covering Tesla's comments on events in his lifetime, could be looked into. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 14:30, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
      • Well, I defer to your much greater familiarity with the subject matter here. I still fail to see, however, how the views of the person concerned simply "don't matter", when they are expressed so publicly, and are about something as fundamental as birthplace. In fact, I think that letter (and its motivations) may be notable in its own right. I do hope it can be looked into. I don't think I can add anything more to the debate here. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:41, 9 June 2014 (UTC)

• I just want to sum up some conclusions we established so far. We have a number of opinions for and against the suggestion. However all of presented sources support the suggestion. Not only that, but none of the sources does not explicitly mention Military frontier. As MrX told, we should follow our sources. Although none of sources mention Military frontier explicitly as a distinction from Croatia, however i agree that Military zone should be mentioned, but it should be clearly stated that Military zone was a part of Croatia and it should be clear from the context that Croatia is Tesla's homeland. That is what presented valid sources tell us. The fact that more people stated their opinion against can't overturn valid sources, since that are only their opinions which are not confirmed by any source. So either the other side present sources to support their claims or we accept the suggestion confirmed by present sources. I repeat, I agree that Military zone should be mentioned, but the context should tell that this was part of Croatia. I suggested "Smiljan, Croatian Military zone, Croatia, Austrian Empire", this is similar to Director's last suggestion (this can extend to explain what military zone is - militarized part of Croatia under military administration of the Empires high command) Other suggestion can be purposed one "Smiljan, Croatia, Austrian Empire", which is consistent with sources. This can then expand to explain the Military zone. I just want to say that this discussion has gone too far with personal opinions, so i won't answer to personal opinions any more, I already explained my opinion. So, please post sources to confirm your opinions. Also Tesla's opinion about Croatia should be explicitly written, not necessary connected to his place of birth. So, phrase similar to: "Tesla considered Croatia to be his homeland". This must be reflected in the article with or without the result of this discussion. I also shoewhat could accept "Smiljan, Croatian military frontier, Austrian Empire", but then,in the extension it must be clearly explained that Croatian military frontier is a part of Croatia. That it belong to Croatian cultural area and that it has only temporal military administration. So something like "Croatian military frontier belongs both culturally and politically to Croatia although that area was separated from civil administration and put under military command. It remained under military command until it was officially abolished in 1881. and returned to civil administration". As for Tesla's opinion that Croatia was his homeland, we should find appropriate place to state this. Asdisis (talk) 15:36, 9 June 2014 (UTC)
• No. Croatia did not exist at the time of Tesla's birth. Binksternet (talk) 17:55, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

No, Croatia did in fact exist as the Kingdom of Croatia as well as a conventional geographical entity known as such, but Smiljan was separated from it into a substantially different political entity called the Croatian Military Frontier. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:08, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Croatian Military frontier isn't a political entity. Please focus of finding sources that confirm your claim. We have valid sources that will be accepted unless more reliable sources do not overturn them. I think that this discussion is over. We only need to form a construct that will enter the article. I suggest that User:Director and I form a final construction, since nobody else is willing to compromise. We can not asses geo-political situation. We must follow valid sources that dealt with Nikola Tesla.Asdisis (talk) 18:28, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Err, I'm sorry, but any administrative subdivision of a state is necessarily a political entity. Indeed, that you would claim that something so often discussed in Croatian politics of the time is not a political construct - is downright absurd. I do agree that this discussion should end, yes. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:45, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Military zone is a very unique case in history. I do not agree with you. Please, post valid sources that dealt with Tesla. Otherwise i do not think there's anything to discuss more. Asdisis (talk) 18:54, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• I would like to add there sourced to the discussion. I thank Tom Hulse for providing them.12345 Asdisis (talk) 23:59, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

• Another source:

Quote: Tesla was born, is in the province of Lika, and at the time of his birth this was a dependent province held by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as part of Croatia and Slovenia.

Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla by John J. O'Neil Asdisis (talk) 17:03, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

• No – If Croatia didn't exist at the time, then Tesla could not have been born in Croatia. The current wording is correct, while the revised wording is wrong. Epicgenius (talk) 17:55, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
  • Didn't exist? So what was this guy doing? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:00, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Living in the place where Croatia would be. This little detail, about how Croatia didn't exist yet, is important to the Josip Jelačić article. If Croatia existed as a country when Tesla was born, I apologize. —Epicgenius (talk) 18:08, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
      • And sorry also for being so obtuse. I'm sure we'd all agree there was a "geographical entity" called Croatia all this time, but it's debatable as to when it was and when it was not a "real country". It's all getting a bit circular, isn't it. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:13, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

• Please, restrict yourself from posting your own personal opinions or personal research conclusions. We have reached a certain point in this discussion. The construct from the article is going to be modified according to the sources, unless someone finds more convincing sources. Asdisis (talk) 20:52, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

• More sources:

Quote:

"By the 18th century, Croatia was largely a military state under Habsburg control amounting to 15,500 square miles, of which only 3,700 square miles were outside Military Frontier."

Source:

Culture and Customs of Croatia By Marilyn Cvitanic

This quote directly shows my claim that Croatia includes both Military frontier and civil Croatia.

Quote:

"The historical statehood narrative recalls that the Vojna Krajina[Military frontier] galvanised Croatian national sentiment by providing a focus for political mobilisation. From its establishment until its reincorporation with so-called Civil Croatia in the nineteenth century, the Sabor constantly demanded that Zagreb be allowed to exert its authority over Vojna Krajina and effectively reunite the lands of today's northern Croatia"

The Formation of Croatian National Identity: A Centuries-old Dream By Alex J. Bellamy

This source further confirms that Military zone was a part of Croatia, although under military administration of the Empire

Quote:

"The nineteenth century found Croatia divided into ‘civil’ and ‘military’ parts. The military part of Croatia, the so-called Vojna krajina..."

Source:

Supreme Court of the Republic of Croatia, [2], the further sources upon this article is written are listed on the pages of the Supreme court

Asdisis (talk) 00:37, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

You are utterly confused regarding the Kingdom of Croatia, the Croatian Military Frontier, and the region of Croatia. In 1854, the region of Croatia was divided into the Kingdom of Croatia, and the Croatian Military Frontier.

The Croatian Military Frontier was a "part of Croatia", yes, but ONLY in the sense that it was part of the (unofficial) region of Croatia. Beyond that, it was NOT, in any official or administrative sense, a part of the Kingdom of Croatia. Do you understand that? None of your sources contradict this, nor you will you find any that do.

You can NOT state without qualification that "Tesla was born in Croatia". That statement is true - but only in the sense of the unofficial region. And you can not bring your confusion about these things into the article. You can not suggest that Tesla was born in the Kingdom of Croatia. -- Director (talk) 11:40, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I did not purpose that you claim. My suggestion is "Smiljan, Croatian military zone, Croatia, Austrian Empire". Further a sentence explaining Military zone can be added. Also, I'm sorry but the sources support my claim, while you state your personal opinion. Note that the last source, from the Supreme Court of the Republic of Croatia directly dismisses your claim. The Supreme Court of the Republic of Croatia dealt directly with legislative question of that area. Please visit the source I provided. It explicitly noted that. It has not called Military frontier an unofficial part of the region of Croatia.Asdisis (talk) 11:46, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

And your proposal is still misleading, even more than before. You see, when you list entities like that, with commas - you suggest that those are official entities, official, administrative subdivisions. And the Croatian Military Frontier (not "military zone"), was NOT a part of any official entity called "Croatia". It was a part of the unofficial "region" of Croatia (sort of), but the way you say that suggests that this region was official in some way.

So let me say this again: the Croatian Military Frontier was NOT a part of the Kingdom of Croatia. You can not suggest that it was. -- Director (talk) 11:56, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, your claim contradicts the presented sources. Asdisis (talk) 12:04, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

No, it does not. You only think it does because you have inextricably conflated the Kingdom of Croatia with the general region of Croatia. Though you can be forgiven considering how deliberately confusing and unforgivably biased Croatian sources are on this and similar issues, just as the Croatian public school history classes as a whole. -- Director (talk) 12:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

[[:File:Map of the Kingdom of Croatia (1868).png|thumb|right|220px|The three areas marked Croatian Military Frontier (C.M.F), plus the red bit, are generally what was regarded as the region of "Croatia" at that time. However, only the red part was an autonomous state, the Kingdom of Croatia. The C.M.F (where Tesla was born) was just one small part of a large Military Frontier that was under direct Imperial control, and had no administrative/official connections with the Kingdom of Croatia (in red).]]

Croatian sources can not be classified as biased only because they are Croatian. Calling The Supreme Court of the Republic of Croatia which directly dealt with legislative question biased is out of the question. That source is the most reliable because it's the only source that directly dealt with legislative question and it's the only one that possesses extensive knowledge on the legislative questions. You on the other hand presented no sources. Your claim goes towards de facto control instead de jure control. I do not negate that the Empire had de facto control over Military zone. However i presented sources that confirm my claim that those territories were de jure Croatian. Asdisis (talk) 12:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• Alternate proposal: So I've been wracking my brains to compose a sentence that might be brief, politically correct, and still accurate. The best I came up with is "Tesla was born in the Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire, in the region of Croatia (part of today's Republic of Croatia)." Comments? -- Director (talk) 12:01, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I already told that I find this consensus somewhat acceptable. We should further discuss it. Asdisis (talk) 12:04, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

You could not have told me that, because this is the first time I've proposed it in this formulation. -- Director (talk) 12:07, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

That is true, I also found your previous suggestion: "Tesla was born in the region of Croatia, part of the Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire" acceptable for further discussion. Asdisis (talk) 12:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• Just an update on this discussion. All presented sources are in support of my suggestion. However I an open for a consensus. Of course, since all sources support my claim, I take the last word right. If no consensus can be reached, I will make the edit myself, based on the presented sources. Therefore I invite you to find relevant sources, and make a consensus suggestion. Best regards. Asdisis (talk) 14:04, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

The sources are not in support of your position - you are simply confused regarding the historical conditions, and do not understand what the sources mean by "Croatia". The formulation you propose can only do one thing, and that is transfer your confusion to the unfortunate reader. Repeating yourself will not make your position any stronger: it'll just annoy others. -- Director (talk) 14:36, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Here are some additional sources worth considering.- MrX 16:36, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

"The electrical world is just now experiencing a thrill of delight becuase of the remarkable experiments of Nikola Tesla, a young Austro-Hungarian, who has made this city his home and who promises to become famous in his profession." "Nikola Tesla is a native of Servia." "He [Tesla] is Serbian by birth" Tesla: "My mother was the greatest woman Serbia ever produced." Tesla: "When I was in the polytechnic college in Serbia, I became an inveterate gambler." "Tesla was born in Serbia and is the son of a priest of the Greek church." "Professor Tesla was born in Serbia in 1857." "Born of a Greek clergyman, in Smilijan in Serbia, it was intended that the young Tesla follow theology as a profession, but the inventive genius, inherited from his mother, took him into the realm of science. "Nikola Tesla of New York, famed electrical engineer and inventor, born in Serbia 77 years ago. "Dwelling in honored retirement in New York is 84 year old Nikola Tesla who came to this country after working in his native Serbia." "Nikola Tesla was born at Smiljan, a small place on the Austrian border, and is now 35 years of age." "Tesla, on the other hand, is the product of the best polytechnic schools of his native country, Austria. He is from the province of Croatia,..." "At such time, in an obscure village in Croatia, Austria's poorest province, close by the River Like, with its ominous disappearance underground, was born a child to whom was given the name Nikola Tesla." "Where was Nikola Tesla born? At Smiljan, Croatia, Austria-Hungary." "Nikola Tesla was born in Lika, the border country of Austria-Hungary, in 1857." "It is singular that this remarkable man should have come to us from one of the smallest and least known nations of Europe, Montenegro;" "Tesla: I was born in a little place called Smiljan, on the border country of Austria-Hungary, this special section of territory being known as Lika." "He is a native of Montenegro, a small province in the mountains of European Turkey;" "His boyhood home was in the borderland of eastern Austria, where Slav and Turk have so often struggled for the mastery." "A Serb born in Croatia in 1856, Tesla is honored as a Benjamin Franklin-type figure in the Balkans - despite his immigration to the United States." " Tesla was born in Serbia in 1856, and his life followed a rags-to-riches-to-rags trajectory that would sound melodramatic if it weren't so tragic and true -- or told with such surprising charm in The Invention of Everything Else." Interplanetary theories aside, the electrical engineer was actually from a small village in Serbia, where at age 7, he created an engine that was powered by June bugs." "Serbia and Croatia have sought to claim Tesla as their own, although the scientist spent most of his life in the United States." "Born on the Balkan Peninsula when the region was under the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1856, Nicola Tesla grew up under the tutelage of a highly intellectual lather who wished his son to follow in his footsteps as a priest." " He was of Serbian extraction, born in present-day Croatia as a citizen of Austria-Hungary a and later became a U.S. citizen." "Born July 10 in Smiljan, Austrian Croatia" References

• MrX than you for this sources. I will study them in detail to determine their validity. However i see that many of them speak of Serbia, or Montenegro as his birthplace. That sources will be probably dismissed because we all agree that Tesla was born in Austrian Empire. We also agree that he was born in Croatian military zone. The only disagreement is weather Military zone is a part of Croatia. Some of the sources mention Austro-Hungary, that is also incorrect, however it is not a big mistake. You also posted some sources that reflect on his nationality. That sources do not belong to this discussion. Asdisis (talk) 17:36, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• No - Sources are all over the map on this. The only somewhat consistent facts are that Tesla was born in the Austrian Empire; that he was born in Smiljan; and that Smiljan is now in the country of Croatia. Everything else is unnecessary detail which will only further nationalistic disputes and unnecessary disruption.- MrX 20:39, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Apart from rejected sources, all presented sources are very clear regarding the discussed question. Asdisis (talk) 20:51, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Refined sources provided by MrX.

"Nikola Tesla was born at Smiljan, a small place on the Austrian border, and is now 35 years of age." "Tesla, on the other hand, is the product of the best polytechnic schools of his native country, Austria. He is from the province of Croatia,..." "At such time, in an obscure village in Croatia, Austria's poorest province, close by the River Like, with its ominous disappearance underground, was born a child to whom was given the name Nikola Tesla." "Where was Nikola Tesla born? At Smiljan, Croatia, Austria-Hungary." "Nikola Tesla was born in Lika, the border country of Austria-Hungary, in 1857." "Tesla: I was born in a little place called Smiljan, on the border country of Austria-Hungary, this special section of territory being known as Lika." "His boyhood home was in the borderland of eastern Austria, where Slav and Turk have so often struggled for the mastery." "A Serb born in Croatia in 1856, Tesla is honored as a Benjamin Franklin-type figure in the Balkans - despite his immigration to the United States." "Born on the Balkan Peninsula when the region was under the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1856, Nicola Tesla grew up under the tutelage of a highly intellectual lather who wished his son to follow in his footsteps as a priest." " He was of Serbian extraction, born in present-day Croatia as a citizen of Austria-Hungary a and later became a U.S. citizen." "Born July 10 in Smiljan, Austrian Croatia" References

I removed sources that tell of Tesla's nationality because they do not belong to this discussion. Also I removed sources that determine Serbia or Montenegro as Tesla's place of birth because we have already established that he was born in Austrian Empire. Also, one source doesn't belong to this discussion. This are the refined sources the conclusion of this discussion will be based upon. I think that enough sources have been presented. I think that Croatia should be mentioned explicitly, also Croatian military zone should be mentioned. I think Director has made some goon consensus suggestions and the final construct should be similar to that suggestions. However, I think that the final construct should be a little more understandable. Than you all for posting so much sources. I think we can now move this discussion towards making the final construct. Asdisis (talk) 00:34, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

• If no one else wishes to make a suggestions, then Director and I will make a consensus based on presented sources, since he is the only one that contributes to this discussion. I will leave some time for others to make their suggestions.Asdisis (talk) 14:11, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Here is how the major biographies of Tesla have characterized his place of origin.

Tesla biographies

Tesla: Inventor of the Electrical Age W. Bernard Carlson Princeton University Press, May 7, 2013 p.13 Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia. At that time, Croatia was the military frontier district of Austro-Hungarian Empire and the area sometimes referred to as Krajina. Smiljan, Austrian Empire (Modern Day Croatia) Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia) Tesla: Man Out of Time Margaret Cheney Simon and Schuster, Oct 2, 2001 p. 25 Nikola Tesla was born at precisely midnight between July 9 and 10, 1856, in the village of Smiljan, province of Lika, Croatia, between Yugoslavia’s Velebit Mountains and the eastern shore of the Adriatic Sea. Smiljan, Croatian Wizard: The Life And Times Of Nikola Tesla Marc J. Seifer Citadel Press, May 1, 1998 p. 1 It was during a crackling summer storm in Smiljan, a small hamlet at the back edge of a plateau set high in the mountains, when Nikola Tesla was born. The Serbian family resided in the province of Lika, a plateau and gentle river valley in Croatia where wild boar and deer still dwell…. … In the early 1800s, having been briefly part of Napoleon’s Illyrian provinces, Croatia was now a domain of Austria-Hungary. With its neighboring Slavic countries of Bosnia, Herzegovina, Montenegro, Serbia, an Slovenia, Croatia was sandwiched between the ruling Hapsburg dynasty to the north and the Ottoman Empire to the south. Smiljan, Croatian Smiljan, Austrian Empire (Modern Day Croatia) Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia) Nikola Tesla: A Spark of Genius Carol Dommermuth-Costa Twenty-First Century Books, 1994 p.11 Nikola Tesla was born at midnight between July 9 and 10, 1856, in Smiljan, a small village in Croatia. Smiljan, Croatian Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla James O’Neill Ives Washburn, 1944 p. 11 There was no evidence whatever that a superman was being born when the stroke of midnight between July 9 and 10 in the year 1856, brought a son, Nikola, to the home of the Rev. Milutin Teslan and Djouka, his wife, in the hamlet of Smiljan, I the Austro-Hungarian border province of Lika, now a part of Yugoslavia. Smiljan, Austrian Empire (Modern Day Croatia) Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia) The Inventions, Researches and Writings of Nikola Tesla The inventions, researches, and writings of Nikola Tesla Thomas C. Martin, Nikola Tesla Health Research Books, Nov 1, 1894 p. 3 Nikola Tesla was born in 1857 at Smiljan, Lika, a borderland region of Austro-Hungary, of the Serbian race, which has maintained against Turkey and all comers so unceasing a struggle for freedom Smiljan, Austrian Empire (Modern Day Croatia) Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia)

There just isn't consensus among Tesla's biographers for this, and I strongly suggest that no one split hairs and try to argue oh yes there is. This is a case where Wikipedia convention and consensus ought to be respected, since it it really is a matter of style and convention rather than absolute historical fact.--Atlantictire (talk) 20:03, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Please, join the above discussion with this sources. They do not belong to this discussion. Best regards. Asdisis (talk) 20:25, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Atlantictire: That's a good analysis and a good summary. I think it supports the retaining the current wording, or something very similar. I'm not convinced that adding further geographic information would be beneficial to our readers. If readers want more geopolitical information, they can simply follow the wikilinks.- MrX 20:28, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I always try to remember that the goal is to create something people can and want to, well, read. Lots of concessions and appeasing embellishments, sadly, increase the likelihood that your readers will stop at the lead (or won't get very far past it).

Personally, I think the current wording is fine. The person who is desperate to know everything about Tesla’s place of origin will, as MrX pointed out, follow the wikilinks and find out. The person who isn’t and just wants a biographical overview they can read in under 10 minutes will thank you for keeping to the essentials. Let’s not forget that most visitors are probably the latter!--Atlantictire (talk) 23:31, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I also thing that Tesla's connection to Croatia is not adequately reflected in the article. I will make a request when the above discussion finishes. Asdisis (talk) 00:17, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Asdinsis, this subject has been present since the begining of the article, and there is a reason why everything regarding Tesla birthplace and ethnicity has been simplified: because most readers of this article here on en.wiki simply want to read about what Tesla was notable for, a scientist, and not about Tesla the Great Serb, or Tesla Croatia´s homeland hero. You fail to see the can of worms you are opening here, because if you try to reflect more on Tesla´s connection with Croatia, you will have then a response from editors interested in reflecting Tesla´s connection with Serbs and Serbia, and it will be a never ending story. FkpCascais (talk) 01:31, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it's kind of chock full of oddball, fetishistic minutia as is. An alternate explanation for his younger brother's death, in-depth accounts of childhood illnesses, the fact that he liked to explore mountains "in hunter's garb." And this is just the first section. Maybe get the article stable enough to bring in a copy editor?--Atlantictire (talk) 02:44, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I already said that I agree. The edit will be simple and understandable. Asdisis (talk) 13:59, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. I always detect a bit of chauvinism and condescension when this topic comes up. Why in the world should this article not explain in detail where the devil Tesla was born? Trying to push a "connection to Croatia" is one thing, but I'm surprised to hear editors so often express a dismissive attitude towards Tesla's origins as a whole. As if, you know, "who cares". This article should state that Tesla was born in a part of the Austrian Empire's Military Frontier, the Croatian Military Frontier. That this area is traditionally part of the region of Lika, which in turn is part of Croatia proper, and is today a part of the Republic of Croatia. The word "Croatia" may repeat three times, but frankly I don't think that should matter, as its necessary to accurately explain where the man was from, and to dispel any confusion caused from all these superficial, and therefore mutually-contradicting accounts in various sources. A couple sentences could clear this up, and provide a proper context for Tesla's early years:

"Nikola Tesla was born on 10 July (O.S. 28 June) 1856 to Serbian parents in the village of Smiljan, then part of the Croatian Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia). The Croatian Military Frontier, itself merely one segment of the Austrian Military Frontier, was a military-administered region bordering the Ottoman Empire. In traditional perception, Tesla's home village belongs in Lika, a part of the region of Croatia proper." -- Director (talk) 06:43, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Merely being bold. But I do not think it can be argued that a slightly more detailed coverage of the geopolitical circumstances of Tesla's youth would be detrimental to the article. Expanding one sentence and adding another, with completely WP:BLUE and unchallenged info, is not only justified imo, but necessary given the confusion caused by the superficial coverage in many other sources. -- Director (talk) 13:23, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I may be alone in my view on this, but I think the extra detail would tend to lose a reader's attention, and offer very little informational benefit. I don't want to repeat my reasoning already stated upthread, but if you can rally consensus for adding this content, I certainly won't stand in the way of it.- MrX 13:47, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree with MrX. current wording is fine. If people want more detail they can read up on geography, political history. etc. This is only of interest to people with an ethnic or political axe to grind. Fountains of Bryn Mawr (talk) 15:44, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Present construct is not understandable enough. It has several interpretations, and I have met a lot of people which interpreted it in a wrong why. It has to be more understandable, I do not think more details will be added. One sentence will be changed with the other one, maybe two. Asdisis (talk) 20:16, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

• Consensus suggestion: "Nikola Tesla was born on 10 July (O.S. 28 June) 1856 in Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire. At the time of his birth this was a dependent province held by Austrian Empire as part of Croatia."

This comes directly from conclusions we made so far. First sentence is a suggestion made by Director. I think that has been established so far. Second sentence comes from Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla By James O'Neill.[3], page 12. Maybe it would be better to omit Austian Empire from the first sentence because it is repeated twice. The first sentence can be written in infobox. Comments? Director?Asdisis (talk) 01:16, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

No. You are making up how CMF was part of Croatia, and then you play dirty and suggest us to exclude Austrian Empire. There is a consensus not to change absolutelly anything from current article and people are moving on to other subjects. FkpCascais (talk) 15:20, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

As I said, the second sentence comes directly from one of presented sources. I just suggested an option to omit Austrian Empire from the first sentence because the second sentence directly follows the first one and in the second sentence Austrian Empire is mentioned explicitly. There is no need to mention it twice. Also second sentence would become more understandable. Anyway, the first sentence would be written in infobox. Thus, I have not been playing dirty. I think this is a good consensus and it comes directly from one of presented sources. As I said, edit will be made by me if no consensus can be reached because all sources support my claim. I also take the last word right concerning the consensus. Please make a consensus suggestion, or find sources that support your objections. Otherwise, I reject you objection as unfounded. Asdisis (talk) 16:08, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

You don´t have sources that claim that CMF was part of Croatia, and I do have sources for the current wording simply stating Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire. So no, you will not make any unilateral changes and no, it is not you who will consider objections founded or unfounded. I sincerelly suggest you to dropp the subject and move on. Your nationalistic agenda did not got any support around here. I wan´t be loosing any more time with this, and the ammount of "no´s" you receved says it all. FkpCascais (talk) 16:28, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

I said that the second sentence comes from one of the sources presented. I added a link, so your first claim isn't correct. Furthermore,read the suggestion. The first sentence does indeed say "Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire". The second sentence comes directly from one of the sources. The decision will be founded on presented sources and not the amount of "no´s". I agree with the first sentence, and I think we all agree. However majority of the sources mention Croatia explicitly and Croatia should be mentioned explicitly. Note that Croatia is a broader definition and sources that mention only Croatian military frontier do not negate Croatia as a broader definition. Also read the topic again, you will find sources that claim that CMF is a part of Croatia. However, i must state that we can't discuss geo-political situation in that time. We can only follow sources that dealt with Tesla explicitly. I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with you. If no consensus can be reached, I will seek dispute resolution. Your contempt towards my suggestions because you think i have "nationalistic agenda" can not be considered as a valid objection. You have contributed nothing to this discussion. You presented no sources and made no consensus suggestion. You only expressed personal contempt and unfounded objections. I only await director's opinion because it seems he is the only one who is willing to work on a consensus. This is my last answer to anyone who have not presented any sources and isn't willing to work on consensus. If consensus is not reached we will seek dispute resolution. Unfounded objections will be dismissed from the final decision. Not any amount of unfounded objections and unconfirmed claims can overturn presented valid sources. Asdisis (talk) 17:33, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

How unfortunate this man was to have been born into my disturbed people. Decades after his death, they hinder the improvement of the article by pointlessly debating whether he belonged to one tribe or another, while articles about his peers and contemporaries (such as Niels Bohr and even less famous Louis Slotin) appear on the main page as featured articles. Does anyone really believe that his tribal affiliation is relevant to his accomplishments? As if that made him the man he was. Nationalistic "pride" is a 19th-century absurdity that somehow survives and apparently thrives here. Both the current and the suggested wording are accurate, though "Croatia" mentioned in the former is not the "Croatia" mentioned in the latter. An average reader couldn't care less about which of the "two Croatias" we mention. Surtsicna (talk) 17:06, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

• No I know this will always be contentious, but I think the current wording is already a pretty good comprise.--Atlantictire (talk) 17:25, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Although I'm happy with my previous suggestion this is another one. "Nikola Tesla was born in Smiljan, Croatia (then part of Croatian Military Frontier of Austrian Empire)." I must stress that this is a present view on his birthplace. It is supported by many presented sources and it described the situation at the time of his birth. Another, maybe better suggestion would be: "Nikola Tesla was born in Croatian village of Smiljan (then part of Croatian Military Frontier of Austrian Empire)". Apart from geopolitical situation at that time I think that there is no dispute that the area Tesla was born culturally belonged to Croatia. Readers are more interested on present views which do not deal with geopolitical situation. Present views associate territories culturally because people themselves do it that way. That is why, today we say that someone born in Vichy France was born in France, and so on. I think that this is a very good suggestion. Asdisis (talk) 18:16, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Now you talk how the region Tesla was born was culturally Croat. Tesla was culturally a Serb, don´t digg yourself a grave even further. And your wording about Croatian village of Smiljan is beyond ridiculous. FkpCascais (talk) 23:06, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, exactly, this is a new suggestion and i think a very good one. Tesla's birthplace should be described from present point of view because of complicated history. Director, I would like to hear your opinion about this. Military zone lost its function a long time before Tesla was born. People living there were connected to Croatia. I think that will become my main claim. I know I give you some credit by answering your unfounded objections. However, your objections will be neglected if you do not find valid sources that support your claims. Best regards. Asdisis (talk) 23:38, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

• I remind you that we are working on a consensus regarding this request. It seems Director is on vacation. This discussion will be open some time, at least while Director rejoins it. Please make your suggestions. If no consensus can be reached, I will make an edit based on presented sources, so please find sources if you do not agree with my suggestions. In case of any dispute then we will do according to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution (WP:DR). I thank you for your cooperation. Asdisis (talk) 17:49, 18 June 2014 (UTC)
• Yes. This issue definitely needs clarification. If Nikola Tesla himself said that he was born in Croatia, then he was born in Croatia. Tesla being the genius that he was knew exactly where he came from and where he was born, this cannot be contradicted. I would even go so far as to say that it should be mentioned in the lead as such- "Nikola Tesla was a Croatian-born Serbian-American inventor..." This is being fair to Tesla's own sentiments on the matter rather than the personal opinions of others. When Tesla says "I was born in Croatia", that tells me that he was Croatian-born. Whether he was referring to the 'region' of Croatia or the 'Kingdom of Croatia' or the 'Croatian Military Frontier' it does not really matter as his birth place today belongs to what is now formerly known as 'The Republic of Croatia' anyway. Asdisis has provided many reliable sources on the subject. I like Director's suggestion for the description of Tesla's birth place- "Tesla was born in the region of Croatia, part of the Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire". Although perhaps with this added extra- "Nikola Tesla was born in the village of Smiljan in the region of Croatia, province of Lika which was part of the Military Frontier of the Austrian Empire." Or something to that effect. Or "Nikola Tesla was born in the village of Smiljan in the Military Frontier region of Croatia in the province of Lika which was part of the Austrian Empire." We don't have to include Lika but Tesla often wrote that he was from Lika in his patents, and as we know Lika is a province in Croatia.Michael Cambridge 15:19, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

I also think Director's suggestions are acceptable. However they seem a bit complicated. I think we can all agree that geopolitical situation of Croatia at Tesla's time is complicated. This is why I think that a present view on the situation is maybe the best choice. As I explained, at Tesla's time Military frontier was perceived by its residents as a part of Croatia. They associated themselves with Croatia. Not long after Tesla's birth, in 1868, Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia was established. Thank you for joining this discussion. I would like to hear your opinion on my suggestions. My main suggestion is : "Nikola Tesla was born on 10 July (O.S. 28 June) 1856 in Smiljan, Croatian Military Frontier, Austrian Empire. At the time of his birth this was a dependent province held by Austrian Empire as part of Croatia.". The first sentence is generally accepted and the second sentence comes directly form one of the presented sources. My other suggestion is the present view. Its logic is not to follow strict geopolitical situation at that time, but rather to follow the situation on the ground. As I described earlier, the situation on the ground was the following: Military frontier had lost its function a long time before Tesla's time. People living there has been unhappy with additional obligations than the rest of the Empire. They associated themselves with Croatia. The simplified view would be followed by description of the geopolitical situation. I saw that approach used many times, and I think it is the best solution to this discussion. It is also supported by Tesla's own opinion. For that see the below discussion. Also, your suggestion about adding Croatia to the lead was already been suggested by my. Look below for the discussion about that. I will make more requests after this discussion is finished. I think that i have reliable sources that support my suggestions and I have no doubt that this discussion will be resolved according to that sources. If not by consensus, then by WP:DR. Asdisis (talk) 16:45, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Your assertion that "at Tesla's time Military frontier was perceived by its residents as a part of Croatia" cannot be true: almost half of the people in that area identified as Serbs. Your attempt to push a Croatian POV is not needed at the Tesla article, especially since Tesla was culturally Serbian. Tesla himself said he was in favor of unification rather than separatism. Let's keep nationalistic pride out of this biography, please. Binksternet (talk) 17:56, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

The assertion is unreferenced, but not untenable - it simply makes no sense to strictly infer toponymy from any portion of the inhabiting population. Are the two of you actively trying to demonstrate how two wrongs don't make a right? :) --Joy [shallot] (talk) 18:27, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree. Also, there's a discussion going on at the bottom of this talk page concerning whether Tesla truly deserves credit for having designed and built the first AC induction motor. You know, the innovation that is the reason why a Serb from Croatia gets credit for having made mass electrification possible and not an American from Ohio or an Italian from Sardinia. If you really care about Tesla, your efforts would probably be much better spent developing an informed opinion on that issue rather than rehashing this for the millionth zillionth time.--Atlantictire (talk) 18:48, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Please, understand that your opinion about the relevance of this discussion does not have to be generally shared. Asdisis (talk) 19:07, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Please read the discussion. To repeat "The historical statehood narrative recalls that the Vojna Krajina[Military frontier] galvanised Croatian national sentiment by providing a focus for political mobilisation". Also, I dismiss your ad hominem attack.Asdisis (talk) 19:00, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

• No. We should state his birthplace according to how it was called at the time of his birth. For example, we wouldn't switch Stalin's birth country from the Russian Empire to Georgia, just because his birthplace is now in the latter country in modern times. Canuck^{89 (talk to me)} 20:26, June 26, 2014 (UTC)

There seems to be a lot of anti-Croatian sentiment for reasons I can't entirely fathom. Some people are shouting from the rooftops that Croatia didn't exist at the time of Tesla's birth when it is quite obvious that it did. We need to take Nikola Tesla's word for it. Tesla said that he was born in Croatia. Could he have known that Croatia would become its own republic over a hundred years after his birth? Even if Croatia was just a region within the Military Frontier it held enough geographical importance for Tesla to say that he was born in Croatia. For those that don't know, Nikola Tesla wrote- "I was born in Croatia." He wrote this in a letter to the editor of The New York Times entitled 'Tribute to King Alexander.' October 19, 1934. This Wikipedia article on Nikola Tesla should clearly state in the lead that Nikola Tesla was Croatian-born, referencing his letter to the New York Times. Remember, these are Tesla's own words, not ours. We should do the right thing by him and state in the lead of the article "Nikola Tesla was a Croatian-born Serbian-American inventor..." It is the right thing to do.Michael Cambridge 14:05, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Please, join the below discussion named "Tesla's ethnicity in lead". Tesla's statement is a primary source. It can show Tesla's personal opinion. We can't base any conclusions without secondary sources. That is why i presented numerous sources. Tesla's statement is supported by many sources and I agree with you. If you read the discussion about Tesla's personal opinion regarding his homeland, you will find more of Tesla's statements. All those is supported by secondary sources presented in this discussion. I will also try to find more secondary sources for those discussions. I'm just giving enough time for this discussion to finish in a proper way. I will make further requests based on below discussions. It would be helpful if some else than me and a few more people present valid sources. I thank you for participating in this discussion. Asdisis (talk) 17:16, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Your analogy is wrong. Tesla's situation is different. The area Tesla was born was de jure Croatian under military administration. The area had Croatian national sentiment. There was no national sentiment of Military border. There is also no Austro-Hungarian national sentiment. Austrian Empire was strictly culturally divided. People living in Military border were culturally connected to Croatia. That is my suggestion stands. Not to mention that my suggestion is supported with many valid sources that dealt specially with Tesla. The sources explicitly mention Croatia as a place of his birth. Also, note that is only one suggestion. The main claim is that the area Tesla was born was de jure Croatia, although it wasn't under Croatian administration. Today we also have military zones under UN administration. However the land belongs de jure to some other country. This would be a far better comparison. To someone born today in UN military zone we most certainly would not call that birthplace by that UN protected zones name. And lastly, if all those books written about Tesla had explicitly written Croatia as his birthplace I see no reason how unfounded objections can overweight them. Asdisis (talk) 17:16, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

First of all, Tesla was born in the Military Frontier which had nothing to do with K. of Croatia as both were separate administrative units within the Austrian Empire. Second, the Military Frontier was divided into sections, and the Croatian Military Frontier was just one of the sections of the Military Frontier. None of these were under Croatian control, despite the name of one of the sections of the Military Frontier being named "Croatian". So the area was neither de jure neither de facto part of K. of Croatia at time Tesla was born. Also, talking about national sentiment in the area which besides being OR is completelly irrelevant for the historically correct definition of a birthplace. FkpCascais (talk) 21:58, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Military frontier de jure belonged to Kingdom of Croatia. I presented sources which support my claim. Please do the same if you want your words to be taken in consideration. My suggestion about the present view on the situation is guided by Tesla's own words and sources that showed that those area had Croatian national sentiment. Military frontier was not a political entity, and it had no national sentiment of its own. It is a military controlled area. I will just briefly repeat my stand. Military frontier de jure belongs to Croatia. That is why Tesla was born in Croatia. Other suggestion is just a simplified view from today's point of view which would be followed by historically correct explanation: "Nikola Tesla was born in Smiljan, Croatia (then part of Croatian Military Frontier of Austrian Empire).". This suggestion isn't just based on national sentiment of that area, and Tesla's own opinion. It is supported by presented sources. I think this is a very good suggestion, and as I said it will become my main suggestion. Nothing is incorrect with this formulation, and your objections are unfounded, and will be rejected if you do not find valid sources which supports your claim. Please do so. Since you have strong objections, and no sources to support your claim, would you answer one question. If Military frontier indeed de jure belonged to Croatia, would you have any other objection to my suggestion? In another words, are we just have a dispute about de jure control over that area? Remember that we also have Tesla's own opinion that he was born in Croatia. Asdisis (talk) 12:56, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

• I have found something interesting. I won't include it in my sources since the source is very questionable. The author is a historian Vasilije Krestic. He is (or was) a member of Serbian academy of science and arts. However he is characterized as a nationalist and a propagandist and he has strong anti-Croatian stands. Just to show a brief example of that: He is a coauthor of Memorandum of the Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts which is a key moment in the breakup of Yugoslavia and a contributor to the Yugoslav wars. I will now quote a paragraph from his article: "Regarding the place and area Tesla was born the facts are following: he was born in 1856. in Smiljan, Lika, which were a part of Military frontier. Military frontier in administratively had not belonged to Croatia nor Austria nor Hungary, but was a special area under the direct control of the emperor and supreme military authorities in Vienna. However, in formal and legal terms Military frontier belonged to Croatia. These and such affiliation was formally avowed by the central government in Vienna, but in practice was realized only at the time of the revolution in 1848 and after the collapse of Bach absolutism in 1861, when Military frontier with its deputies was represented in the Croatian Parliament.". What is more interesting is that the article is named "Nikola Tesla was not born in Croatia but in Military Frontier". In my opinion, his strong anti-Croatian stand gives some validity to any information he tells in favour of Croatia. I do not want to include this in my sources since the author is a propagandist, but I think this is an interesting opinion, specially to those who do not want to accept those facts. If a hard-core nationalist and anti-Croatian propagandist can accept those facts I think that those people have to reconsider their objections not backed up by any source. Asdisis (talk) 22:12, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

In addition to my above posts, even the Wikipedia article on the 'Republic of Serbian Krajina' states- "The name Krajina was adopted from the Military Frontier that was carved out of parts of the crown lands of Croatia and Slavonia by Austria between 1553–1578..." So it is clear that the Military frontier was carved out of Croatian and Slavonian territory. Nikola Tesla was born in the Military Frontier, region of Lika, on Croatian territory. Therefore Tesla was born in Croatia, as he himself said, "I was born in Croatia" - Nikola Tesla.Michael Cambridge 06:37, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Well, a long time had passed from the creation of Military frontier to its abolishment. The fact that it was created from Croatian land can't by itself mean that centuries after it remained to be Croatia. Regardless of the happenings in earlier years, Military zone had been de jure Croatian land in the time Tesla was born. In 1848. it was de jure and de facto under Croatian control, until Bach absolutism. After that de jure right to that land was avowed by the central government in Vienna. National sentiment on that area was Croatian and land was de jure Croatian. That, with Tesla's own statements is enough to call his birthplace Croatia. Asdisis (talk) 13:44, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

No, we should be precise and use the name of the region at the time of the birth. We can add the modern name, like Direktor's suggestions above. I prefer "(modern Croatia)", but you can also use "(today's Croatia) "(today's Republic of Croatia)", etc.

Absolutely yes. We should be precise, and your suggestion is just the opposite. Because of that I started this discussion. The present construct is misleading. I have seen many people who claim that Tesla "had nothing to do with Croatia because Croatia had not existed at that time" and that we can only say "that he was born on the area of present day Croatia (or today's Croatia) but it wasn't Croatia back then". Read the discussion and you will find those claims. Read the discussion about Tesla's own opinion and you will see that he explicitly states Croatia as his birthplace, and calls Croatia his homeland. Asdisis (talk) 13:33, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

• I have to repeat that this discussion had reached a certain level. The edit will be made and i ask of you to work on consensus suggestions, or to present sources in favor of your claims. All unfounded objections will be dismissed from establishing a conclusion. I try to answer every comment, however, by that I do not give any credit to those comments. In a little while i will initialize WP:DR. I'm not yet sure if I need to initialize WP:DR because all presented sources are in favor of my claim. I do not see the reason to accept unfounded objections into consideration, and without them, there is only one conclusion to this discussion. Is someone more experience is willing to help this discussion and lead the process of dispute resolution (or explain if it is even needed since the other side presented no sources) that would be great. If not, I will personally lead the process. I'm hoping to hear Director's opinion on my consensus suggestions because i think those are good suggestions and he is the only one willing to work on a consensus. If he does not agree with my suggestions, I was hoping he would be willing to lead the process of WP:DR. Please restrict your posts to consensus suggestions, or claims supported with valid sources. Asdisis (talk) 14:10, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

• By now there are 13 no´s and 2 yes´s. The proponent seems completely unable to understand what the Military Frontier was, and that it was not part of Croatia. Would anyone oppose closing this thread? FkpCascais (talk) 14:21, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not function by vote. I asked you a question in the above comment, I don't know if you saw it, so I will repeat. If we assume my claims are right, and Military zone was de jure Croatia, was Tesla born in Croatia? It would be helpful if we clearly establish the dispute. Asdisis (talk) 14:49, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Military Frontier was not neither de jure nor de facto Croatia. FkpCascais (talk) 15:42, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Please, read the question again and try to answer it. Thanks. Asdisis (talk) 15:49, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

No. Tesla was not born in Croatia. Tesla was born in Smiljan, Military Frontier, Austrian Empire (by now I am not even convinced using (Croatian Military Frontier any more, as the CMF was just a name of a section of the MF). Please read the article about Military Frontier. He even gor scholarship from the Military Frontier (yes, MF was so real that even gave scholarships, and it was MF, not CMF). Kingdom of Croatia, which was not an independent sovereign kingdom but a crown land of Austrian Empire, claimed parts of the MF. Later Austria gave parts of the MF to K. of Croatia, but that was not the situation at time of Tesla´s birth, but afterwords. So, regarding the place of birth, no, it would be absolutelly wrong to ignore the MF and replace it with Croatia. FkpCascais (talk) 18:46, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Again, please, focus on my question. You clearly answered no, but the explanation of that answer again goes against my assumption, thus you had not answered my question. I will again answer the rest of the comment, but please do not give a reply. Focus only on my question. No one claimed Croatia was an independent kingdom. Austrian Empire returned MF under Croatian administration which was de jure Croatian. No one suggested Croatian Military frontier to be left out of the article. However it should be stated that MF was Croatian land. Asdisis (talk) 19:31, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Please inform yourself about Military Frontier. Was Banat Military Frontier Croatian land? No. It was just another section of the Military Frontier which had nothing to do with Croatia. Please lern some history first. FkpCascais (talk) 19:43, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Also, you know something? All you did with this insistence of yours was to convince me that the correct birthplace of Tesla was: Smiljan, Military Frontier, Austrian Empire. CMF was just a compromise with nationalist-POV pushers like you, but that was just one section (actually named Banska Krajina only colloquially named CMF), so CMF should be replace with a real administrative unit, Military Frontier (no Croatian MF, as that was just a name of the section). FkpCascais (talk) 19:48, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

I tried to reason with you, but you refuse to give a simple answer to a simple question. I give up. I suggest you find sources to support your claims if you want them be taken in consideration. To answer your question: Kingdom of Croatia-Slavonia. There was no dispute regarding Croatian Military frontier so far. I tried to have a reasonable discussion with you, but it seems that's impossible since you refuse to give a simple answer. Instead you repeat your claims that are not supported with any sources. There is no point in further discussion between us, because we won't reach an agreement. I dismiss your allegations. I see them as attempt of ad-hominem attack. I could use the same allegations, and accuse you of same things since your strong objections are not supported by any sources. I do not want to lower myself to that level because I would only discredit myself and my claims, as you have done to yourself. Often someone without arguments reaches towards allegations and ad-hominem attacks. Best regards. Asdisis (talk) 20:11, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

You simply miss a couple of basic facts. At time Tesla was born:

1 - Military Frontier was not part of Croatia neither Croatia-Slavonia.

2 - Military Frontier was divided into sections. Croatian Military Frontier was just one section, and even that section was not neither de facto neither de jure part of K. of Croatia or later K. of Croatia-Slavonia. The entire MF was administred completelly separatelly directly by the Austrian Empire.

3 - Tesla was born in the administrative unit named Military Frontier. Smiljan was in the section of the MF called Banska Krajina which was colloquially named Croatian Military Frontier.

4 - You leave me with the the impression that you are not familiarised with the Military Frontier neither you know the difference between the MF and the Croatian Military Frontier (seems you think that all MF was CMF and because part belonged to Croatia at time of the formation of the MF that the territory somehow belonged to Croatia). But Military Frontier is the administrative unit, and Croatian Military Frontier was just one section of it. Then, the Croatian parliament asked for the return of the part that earlier belonged to Ctoatia so, if they asked for its return, it is because it didn´t belonged to Croatia, simple logic.

5 - There is absolutelly no way that we are going to forge historical accuracy and ignore MF and pretend Smiljan was part of Croatia at time of Tesla birth. If a person for instance was born in Habsburg Serbia, we are not going to put "Serbia". If a person was born in Kingdom of Croatia we will not put him as born in Croatia. If a person was born in the Serbian section of the Banat Military Frontier we are going to put Military Frontier and not Serbia. That is quite clear.

6 - I don´t know what sources you want, since you are basically missing the obvious administrative divisions and reality of the region at time Tesla was born. Of course you may find sources simplifiying things to Croatia, as the part of the MF where Tesla was born was passed to Croatia later. But this is an encyclopedia, and we should carefully be precise about historical accuracy, so the few sources you find end up not having any weight.

7 - You are waiting for Director hopping he will support you, however you ignore Director explained this same thing to you right on the top of the discussion. FkpCascais (talk) 00:21, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

Military frontier at Tesla's time de jure belonged to Croatia. I presented sources in support of that claim. MF was created of Croatian land, however that was centuries before. I do not claim that MF belonged to Croatia because it was created from Croatian land centuries before. Over its history, MF had changed. Both administratively and culturally. By Tesla's time it lost its function. By Tesla's time that area had strong Croatian national sentiment. Especially after the revolutionary 1848. when Jelacic united Croatia an waged a war over Hungary. At that time MF was both de jure and de facto in Croatian control. Bach's absolutism had again put MF under military control, however Croatian de jure right had been avowed and Croatian national sentiment had remained on that land. I do not claim that was the situation throughout the whole history of MF. Your "simple logic" is flawed. Croatian parliament had requested Croatian land to be returned under Croatian administration because it de jure belonged to Croatia. I'm waiting for appropriate time to pass before I start the process of WP:DR. Director was involved in this discussion, and was the only one who disagreed with me, but was prepared to discuss, and not object to every proposal. I think it's common courtesy not to make an edit behind his back. If he disagrees, we will initialize WP:DR. Your whole post is again unsupported with any sources. That doesn't surprises since your claims are incorrect. You haven't contributed to this discussion in any way. When the summary of this discussion is made, every singe of your posts will be dismissed because you had not presented any source to support your claims. Asdisis (talk) 01:17, 30 June 2014 (UTC)

• It seems we have gone too deep into geo-political situation of Tesla's time. I would like just to repeat that the decision will not be based on geopolitical analysis. The decision should be made on presented sources that dealt with Tesla. Geo-political analysis is beyond the scope of this discussion. I do not say we should ignore it completely, however the main sources, upon which the conclusion will be made, are the ones which dealt with Tesla. Also i want to say that this discussion had been a long one. I myself haven't been consistent throughout it, since I was (and still am) in process of investigating the sources. It would be helpful to make a summary of the discussion which will be more understandable. I will try to do it. Also, i would like to state that I do not understand strong objections from some people, alongside all the presented sources, especially minding the fact that those people with strong objections have not presented any sources or contributed to this discussion in any way. Asdisis (talk) 02:33, 1 July 2014 (UTC)

• I would like to bring your attention to some sources that already entered the article. I was focused on the books referenced on the article page. I went trough all the listed books. I also mentioned what the sources from the lead tell.

Sources listed in the lead. I will also add these sourced in the below discussion:

Quote: "Nikola Tesla lived in a small mountain village in Austrian Croatia"

Burgan, Michael (2009). Nikola Tesla: Inventor, Electrical Engineer

Quote from the article: ""I am happy that we are here today to celebrate Tesla, a Serb, a son of Croatia and a citizen of the world," President Mesic "

"Electrical pioneer Tesla honoured". BBC News. 10 July 2006. Retrieved 20 May 2013.

Quote: "Nikola Tesla was born in 1856 in Smiljan, Croatia, then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire."

"Nikola Tesla". History Channel. Retrieved June 15, 2014.

Books:

Quote: "It was during a crackling summer storm in Smiljan, a small hamlet at the back edge of a plateau set high in the mountains, when Nikola Tesla was born. The Serbian family resided in the province of Lika, a plateau and a gentle river valley in Croatia..."

Seifer, Marc J (2001). Wizard: the life and times of Nikola Tesla: biography of a genius

Quote: "Tesla was born, is in the province of Lika, and at the time of his birth this was a dependent province held by the Austro-Hungarian Empire as part of Croatia and Slovenia."

Prodigal Genius: The Life of Nikola Tesla by John J. O'Neil

Quote: "Nikola Tesla was born at precisely midnight between July 9 and 10, 1856, in the village of Smiljan, province of Lika, Croatia..."

Cheney, Margaret (2001) [1981]. Tesla: Man Out of Time.

Quote: "Born of Serbian parents who lived near the western edge of Austro-Hungarian empire. The area, known as Lika, eventually became a part of Yugoslavia, and is today located in Yugoslavia."

Cheney, Margaret; Uth, Robert; Glenn, Jim (1999). Tesla, Master of Lightning

Quote: "Born in Lika, Croatia- then part of Austro-Hungarian Empire"

Van Riper, A. Bowdoin (2011). A Biographical Encyclopedia of Scientists and Inventors in American Film and TV since 1930

Quote: "Nikola Tesla was born in 1856, at Smiljan, Lika, a borderland region of Austro-Hungary... "

Martin, Thomas C., The Inventions, Researches, and Writings of Nikola Tesla

Quote: "It was in this interesting border region...that Nikola Tesla was born"

Childress, David H., The Fantastic Inventions of Nikola Tesla

Quote: "Tesla, born in Croatia..."

Valone, Thomas, Harnessing the Wheelwork of Nature: Tesla's Science of Energy

Quote: "...in Smiljan, a small mountain village on the military frontier of the Austro-Hungarian Empire (in what is now Croatia)"

Carlson, W. Bernard, Tesla: Inventor of the Electrical Age

Missing (i gave explanations, it would be helpful if someone finds out what these sources tell):

Pickover, Clifford A. (1999). Strange Brains and Genius: The Secret Lives Of Eccentric Scientists And Madmen

Explanation: I can't find online version, assistance much appreciated

Childress, David (1993). The fantastic inventions of Nikola Tesla

Explanation: Quote:"Tesla's native place is Smiljan, Lika..." , only Lika is mentioned. I have put this source to the missing group, however several other sources have explicitly said that Lika is in Croatia (look Cheney, Margaret (2001) [1981]. Tesla: Man Out of Time)

Jonnes, Jill (2004). Empires of Light: Edison, Tesla, Westinghouse, and the Race to Electrify the World

Explanation: I can't find online version, assistance much appreciated

Bock-Luna, Birgit (2007). The past in exile: Serbian long-distance nationalism and identity in the wake of the Third Balkan War

Explanation: I can't find whether birthplace is mentioned

Tesla, Nikola, "My Inventions"

Explanation: birthplace not named, or I can't find it

Auster, Paul, Moon Palace, 1989. Tells Tesla's story within the history of the United States.

Explanation: can't find online version

Lomas, Robert, The Man Who Invented the Twentieth Century: Nikola Tesla, forgotten genius of electricity

Explanation: can't find online version

Glenn, Jim, The Complete Patents of Nikola Tesla, 1994

Explanation: no online version

Trinkaus, George TESLA: The Lost Inventions, High Voltage Press, 2002

Explanation: no online version

McNichol, Tom, AC/DC The Savage Tale of the First Standards War

Explanation: I can't find whether birthplace is mentioned

My comment of the sources: I think that sources are pretty clear regarding Tesla's birthplace. Some sources do not explicitly mention Croatia. However they mention either Lika or Military frontier. I must state that those sources do not contradict other sources that explicitly mention Croatia. That is because some of other sources do mention both Lika or Military frontier and explicitly mention Croatia. Asdisis (talk) 01:40, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Asdisis, you have provided overwhelming evidence to prove that Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia. It cannot be disputed anymore that Nikola Tesla was born in Croatia given the solid evidence you have presented. I urge you to go ahead with the edit in both the 'lead' and the 'early years' section. The lead needs to read 'Nikola Tesla was a Croatian-born Serbian-American inventor...' referencing Tesla's quote where he said that he was born in Croatia and other sources you have provided.Michael Cambridge 05:40, 4 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Michael Cambridge (talk • contribs)

I agree with everything you said. Tesla's statement is now backed up with many secondary sources and along with them it makes this discussion closed. Absolutely no sources that contradict Croatia have been presented. As I said sources that do not explicitly mention Croatia are not contradicting the sources that explicitly mention Croatia. Those sources either mention Military frontier, or Lika. Sources that mention Croatia also mention Lika or Military frontier. I'm not yet experience editor, so help would be appreciated from an experienced editor. Should I initialize WP:DR or should I make the edit, since the sources are quite clear. I do not see any reasonable objection to do so. However, there are many unfounded objections. I regarded them, since they contradict the presented sources.Asdisis (talk) 13:17, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

There are many books saying that he was born in the "Military Frontier"[4]. You seem to have forgotten all these books in your list.

However, I believe in quality over quantity. There are too many non-rigorous books copying inaccurate stuff from each other. I prefer using only the best quality books.

Let's pick what looks like the best book of the bunch: Published by Princeton University Press, and the author won in 1997-2000 a Alfred P. Sloan Foundation grant for writing a biography of Tesla [5]. It says: Tesla and his parents lived in the "Austrian Military Frontier". Tesla won a scholarship in 1875 from the "Military Frontier Administration Authority (Grenzlandsverwaltungsbehoerde)". Upon finishing his studies he would be eight years in the military of the Military Frontier. He lost his scholarship when the Military Frontier was abolished.

As a side note, the Tesla Memorial Society of New York says that Tesla house was in the Military Frontier. It even includes a map! --Enric Naval (talk) 15:01, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I disagree. The last post contains only sources from the article. And I also brought attention that many sources do mention Military frontier or Lika and explicitly mention Croatia. I also prefer quality, that is why I made the last comment which show what the sources listed in the article state. I thank you validating one source. I agree that is an important source. It was already listed in this discussion. I regard the source in the favor of my claim. I will briefly repeat what the source tells us.

Quote: "Nikola Tesla was born in 1856. in Smiljan in the province of Lika in what is today Croatia..

Seemingly it supports the present construct. However the clarification is given in the next sentence.

Quote: "At that time, Croatia was the military frontier district of the Austro-Hungarian empire".

It also states that the area Tesla was born was in Croatia with the sentence: "How was it that the Tesla family was living in Croatia in the mid-nineteenth century... "

I started this discussion because I wanted to make a more understandable construct of Tesla's birthplace, since I have seem many inaccurate interpretations of the present construct. I had no idea that the present construct had been put there deliberately to negate Croatia. We have seen how much opposition to mention Croatia had been in this discussion. I want to clearly state that there's nothing wrong with the present construct when interpreted the right way. However, as i have seen from the discussion, the preferred way to interpret it is to negate Croatia as Tesla's birthplace. That is absolutely wrong and this source clearly states that. It includes this construct (...what is today Croatia), however it made sure not to interpret it the wrong way with the following sentences, as I showed. I again thanl you for this source. We should note that this source had explicitly mention Croatia, and also mentioned Lika and Military frontier as a part of Croatia. So, this source is in the favor of my claim to explicitly mention Croatia. And also this source is valuable because it includes both Lika and Military frontier, and clearly states Croatia. It supports my claim that other sources which do not explicitly mention Croatia but mention only Lika or Military frontier, do not contradict the sources that explicitly mention Croatia. Asdisis (talk) 18:47, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

A quick look at the article as it appears today shows us the following text: "Nikola Tesla was born on 10 July (O.S. 28 June) 1856 to Serbian parents in the village of Smiljan, Austrian Empire (modern-day Croatia)." That is sufficient mention of Croatia as Tesla's birthplace. No more is needed. This RfC ought to be closed against your suggested wording, as consensus is clear. Binksternet (talk) 19:04, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I already explained the reasoning for clarification of the present construct. This whole discussion shows that the edit is needed. Also, I won't have a discussion if the edit is needed. I initialized the discussion and the present construct can be discussed along other suggestions. I dismiss the premise that the present construct is given some credit on the fact that it is written in the article. The edit will be made, and the present construct is equal to other suggestions. If you want it to stay written in the article, I suggest you support it with more credible sources than presented up to now. That way we will avoid the discussion if the edit is needed. I do not think we can have that discussion because it would be based on subjective opinions. I suggested the edit and presented numerous valid sources to support my claim. We can not dismiss those sources on the subjective opinions whether the edit is needed. If you need a sufficient reason to join the discussion about Tesla's birthplace, just read the discussion and you will see a bunch of inaccurate interpretations of the present construct. Also note the previous comment by Enric Naval. He mentioned the source that was already added to the discussion. However he gave some credit to the quality of the source, since it was published by Princeton University Press, and the author won in 1997-2000 a Alfred P. Sloan Foundation grant for writing a biography of Tesla. I regard that source as extremely important, since it contains the present construct, and also contains a clarification of that construct so the inaccurate interpretation is avoided. That source, along with inaccurate interpretations based on the present construct directly shows why the edit is needed. I again have to thank Enric Naval for providing a quality source. I think we can regard that source as the most important in this discussion. It's quality is indisputable, it contains the present construct, and also mentions both Lika and Military frontier, and explicitly mention Croatia. It shows why the edit is needed, and it directly shows that Tesla was born in Croatia. It does not omit Military frontier and thus shows that other sources that omit to mention Croatia and mention only Military frontier do not negate Croatia.Asdisis (talk) 22:12, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

• I think this discussion reached its end. I will now write my conclusion. According to ALL sources, Croatia should be explicitly mentioned in the article. There are sources that do not explicitly mention Croatia, but mention either Lika or Military frontier. However, many sources mention both Croatia and Military frontier or/and Lika. Sources that only mention Lika or Military frontier thus do not dispute Croatia as a broader term since other sources define Lika and Military frontier as parts of Croatia. There had been no sources to dispute that conclusion. There had been no valid objections. I dismissed unfounded objections. Also, sources that do not regard Austrian Empire(Austro-Hungary), but mention Serbia, Montenegro, or some other country as Tesla's birthplace are disregarded because of obvious reasons. Is there anyone that does not agree with that conclusion? If that is the case, please write your arguments based on presented sources and point to the sources which are in dispute with my conclusion. If there is no objection I will make the edit. Please restrict your answer to the presented sources or present reliable source in support of your objection. Asdisis (talk) 02:12, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

• I want to state clearly that unfounded objections can not an will not be regarded as a consensus. No amount of unfounded objections can overweight the presented sources. Asdisis (talk) 11:04, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

• The discussion here has seen a little support for your proposal, but not enough to change the wording. If, as you say, you intend to "make the edit" regardless, your action will be seen as disruptive. Per Wikipedia:Blocking policy, disruptive editors may be blocked. Binksternet (talk) 15:10, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.