Talk:Movement for Democracy (Greece)

Wrong title movement

User:Greek Rebel the english speaking sources mention the party as Movement for Democracy : https://hellasjournal.com/2024/11/kasselakis-reveals-name-of-new-party-movement-for-democracy/

https://www.newsbomb.gr/en/story/1604632/kasselakis-reveals-name-of-new-party-movement-for-democracy 193.92.155.183 (talk) 18:30, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I saw it. You are right. You can keep the «Movement of Democracy» as redirection, and move the content to the «Movement for Democracy». But you should know, that this translation is incorrect, and probably one site translated as «Movement for Democracy» and then all the others copied it. The meaning of «Κίνημα Δημοκρατίας» is «Movement of Democracy», while actually the accurate translation is «Democracy Movement». Greek Rebel (talk) 18:37, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I know that is incorrect. Let's wait for the English version of party's website. 193.92.155.183 (talk) 18:43, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps you should create a redirection to Kinima Dimokratias also ? Ip's can't create titles. 193.92.155.183 (talk) 18:45, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I will make both Kinima Dimokratias and Democracy Movement (Greece). Greek Rebel (talk) 21:26, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

I am for renaming it Democracy Movement.

Movement of Democracy hardly makes any sense in English. Weatherextremes (talk) 07:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

The party title is given by the sources, not by us. Which English-language source supports your chosen title? 193.92.155.183 (talk) 17:50, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia:CRITERIA "Article titles are based on how reliable English-language sources refer to the article's subject." 193.92.155.183 (talk) 18:06, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

I understand this, but those are actually english-versions of hellenic sites, that probably one of them translated the party incorrect and then all the others copied it. I think we should call it by its normal translation (Democracy Movement) until the party itself provide the english version somehow. Greek Rebel (talk) 21:40, 29 November 2024 (UTC)

Τhe English-speaking sources have shown the way on how to write the party title. 188.4.247.216 (talk) 17:35, 30 November 2024 (UTC)

5/300

@CubicStar BILL1 (talk) 05:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

User:Quinnnnnby these Mps are still considered to be independent. See also the website of the Hellenic Parliament. If you want it to be written that 5 independent MPs support the party write it down. In the infobox it just confuses the reader. 193.92.155.183 (talk) 17:53, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

If we wait a few days there will be a new parliamentary group, according to the newspapers, and we can bring it in. 193.92.155.183 (talk) 18:03, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

Spartans and Course of Freedom show their MPs despite having fewer than 10, it is more confusing to leave Kasselakis's party out. Quinby (talk) 18:21, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

The Spartans and Course of Freedom have a parliamentary group!!!! It's not the same, please, if you don't understand the Greek parliamentary system don't make changes. 193.92.155.183 (talk) 18:27, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

where is Movement of Democracy? 193.92.155.183 (talk) 18:29, 25 November 2024 (UTC)

No, this is pretty open and shut. The literal parliament website does not cite display them as having MPs. Therefore it must be removed immediately per policies. Rambling Rambler (talk) 14:05, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler could you point me to former discussion on that point? I'm not aware of any, and don't see problem in having it with a note attached as all 5 MPs are in the party. Quinby (talk) 14:48, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

Literally just a basic violation of Wikipedia core policies of WP:V and WP:OR.

The website for the parliament itself explicitly does not list this group as having any MPs and the article you cite, using machine-translation, merely states "the first to sign the founding declaration were the MPs who left SYRIZA and became independent. That is, it was K. Malama, R. Christidou, A. Avlonitis, G. Poulos and Theodora Tzakri". The only other source on the page discussing the founding also only states "It is noted that the independent MPs Kyriaki Malama, Theodora Tzakri, Alexandros Avlonitis, Rallia Christidou and Iota Poulos attended the event" which again is not saying they sit as MPs of that party.

So no source as presented actually lists them as MPs of the party. That is an assumption you have made and introduced without a source to back it up. Rambling Rambler (talk) 14:57, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

thank you very much for your edits!!! since yesterday I try to say the obvious!!! 193.92.155.183 (my ip change automatically, sorry) 77.49.201.141 (talk) 18:00, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

can you please give your opinion on the title issue as well? No english speaking source mentions it as "Democracy Movement" 77.49.201.141 (talk) 18:02, 26 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler and anonmous user: In Hellas, we have parliamentary groups (κοινοβουλευτικές ομάδες, Κ.Ο.). The website of the Hellenic Parliament, display only those groups, and not the parties that are represented in the parliament. That does not mean, that a party does not have representation, if it cannot build a parliamentary group. Democracy Movement have 5 parliamentary independent MPs in the Hellenic Parliament. Those MPs are attached, so it is actually 5/300. Greek Rebel (talk) 16:15, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Democracy Movement have 5 parliamentary independent MPs in the Hellenic Parliament.

You've literally just stated they sit as independents then. So they have 0/300. Rambling Rambler (talk) 16:26, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler My friend, being parliamentary independent in Hellas, means you don't belong in a parliamentary group. A parliamentary group and a political party is something different. A party could have MPs, but not a parliamentary group. This is exactly the case of Democracy Movement. Greek Rebel (talk) 19:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not. There is no source to support any claim they are sitting for that political party. The parliament's website doesn't show it, and from all those presented no sources show it. You're just claiming you know better which is WP:OR. Rambling Rambler (talk) 19:50, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler The parliament website is not responsible of displaying the political party of each MP. It is responsible of displayin the parliamentary groups. Those are two different things. Greek Rebel (talk) 01:01, 28 November 2024 (UTC)

Disruptive editing

User:Greek Rebel why do you insist on your pov, which is still sourced and contradicted by the Greek parliament page??? when it appears here then you can only add it... 130.43.66.82 (talk) 18:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

This is incorrect. This page is for the parliamentary groups. Not the power of each political party. Two different things, please see all the other parliaments. Greek Rebel (talk) 18:49, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't have to see nothing. I have told you before...bring sources to back up what you say. 130.43.66.82 (talk) 18:55, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Quite bluntly at this point, desist from adding this claim.

All you repeatedly do is add sources that say 5 Independent MPs have some form of connection to the party outside of parliament, which is absolutely not the same as your endless WP:OR assertions they sit as MPs for said party. Rambling Rambler (talk) 20:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

This claim has been refuted on the talk page by 1 IP and 1 user: that is nowhere near enough of a consensus to practically put the page into shutdown. I would suggest that an RfC is set up to determine whether they should not have 5 MPs or have 5 MPs with a note these do not form a parliamentary group. Personally I do think that the Parliament page does not enable the discussion of smaller groups and that the 5 MPs are clearly in KiDi, but I am happy to see a consensus built. (cc @Greek Rebel @Rambling Rambler) Regards, Quinby (talk) 08:47, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

The issue though @Quinnnnnby is that if they were so “clearly” representing Movement for Democracy then why has no one insisting on the change been capable of providing a single source that actually categorically states them as such?

Stating someone sits in a parliament as a representative of a party is likely also a BLP issue, needs a reliable source regardless, yet so far every source available still lists them as Independent MPs.

As for the parliamentary website, the argument of their size doesn’t really hold weight when it already documents equally small blocs. Rambling Rambler (talk) 10:20, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler my point on it was that we should turn to an RfC so many can opine on this rather than assertions by 1 or 2 editors. I would note however there are articles that call them both independents and members of KiDi, so the 5/300 and a note would be sufficient in my view (e.g. 1). Regardless, that is beside the RfC idea. Quinby (talk) 11:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Quinnnnnby and @Rambling Rambler I can't find any reason of discussion there. Is there any source that claims that KD has not MPs affiliated with the party? The answer is no. Also, I would like to visit the articles of +Eu and SSW parties from Italy and Germany respectively. Both of them have independent (called "mixed group" in Italy and Non-attached in Germany) MPs at the Parliament, like KD. But their articles present them at the composition bar. That's how WP works. I do not see a case of consensus or not consensus here. I see a case of one user and one anonymous IP that either they don't know how Wikipedia works or they simply want to support their personal opinion due to ego or lack of sympathy for the specific party. And for this reason, as soon as the article is unlocked, I will switch to the previous version. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 12:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Is there any source that claims that KD has not MPs affiliated with the party? The answer is no

Not how Wikipedia works. You want to claim they do have MPs, you have to provide a reliable source for that (WP:BURDEN).

Both of them have independent (called "mixed group" in Italy and Non-attached in Germany) MPs at the Parliament, like KD. But their articles present them at the composition bar.

Completely different instance there. Italian Parliament uses "mixed group" to avoid listing out every minor party but still recognises them. With SSW in Germany, reliable sources demonstrate why they have a singular MP despite it being outside the norm.

Those claims have good sources, you have provided none.

I see a case of one user and one anonymous IP that either they don't know how Wikipedia works or they simply want to support their personal opinion due to ego or lack of sympathy for the specific party.

Ad hominem

And for this reason, as soon as the article is unlocked, I will switch to the previous version.

You've quite literally been tagged by @Voorts that doing so will result in a block. Rambling Rambler (talk) 13:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Quinnnnnby demonstrate those articles then.

That is the ENTIRE problem here. The endless assertion of “articles say they have MPs” that no one is evidencing.

If you can show reliable sources definitively labelling them as such this entire issue is resolved. Rambling Rambler (talk) 13:24, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

The tone of this is why I wish to not engage and turn to a more conciliatory RfC. I also did provide an article link you did not comment on (here are others I've found that explicitly tie them to KIDI though some still call them independents as well, hence the need for a note: 1, 2, 3). Quinby (talk) 14:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for listing those. Looking at them it seems pretty clear then that for now the situation is as the article stands, that at present they are still sitting as Independents despite being aligned/affiliated with this new party outside of parliament. I do note the third of those new three states they intend to officially sit as MPs for this new party after Christmas at some point:

"Independent MP and founding member of the Democracy Movement, Alexandros Avlonitis, spoke about developments in the political scene and Stefanos Kasselakis' party to Nikos Hatzinikolaou, Katia Makri and Antonis Dellatolas on Realfm 97.8.

When asked why SYRIZA MPs who have become independent, such as Petros Pappas, have not joined Stefanos Kasselakis' party, Alexandros Avlonitis replied: "Because I have contact with all those you mentioned, I believe that after the Christmas holidays we will have formed a Parliamentary Group."

Looking at the others linked, while I can't get the Voria article to translate for some reason the three I can machine-translate have Halkidiki News labelling them as Independent MPs who are also members of said party, CorfuPress looks to be a copy and paste of a press release from the party's website (which looks to be the only place on their website that even makes the claim of them as their MPs), and the enikos source as quoted above has one of those MPs still talking about themselves as an Independent and not an MP of this new party.

This is probably a wait and see case at present, but until then given the lack of clarity as to their status it's best to not go beyond what sources detail which is that they are independents who are aligned with the party outside of parliament itself. Rambling Rambler (talk) 14:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

"In the clearest and most categorical way, Alexandros Avlonitis made it known that he now belongs to Stefanos Kasselakis' newly formed party, Democracy Movement." from the Voira article. Quinby (talk) 14:32, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

So we have the same MP stating they still sit as an Independent MP but saying they "belong" to the party. I think the current lead of the article is about as close to stating the current complexity as possible without straying into WP:OR territory, and that given the complexity it's still best to avoid the political composition bar being added until such a time they have a clearly established bloc in parliament. Rambling Rambler (talk) 14:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Quinnnnnby also forgot to mention, I have posted a link to this discussion in the Politics wikiproject in an attempt to get more views. Rambling Rambler (talk) 15:03, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler your persistence is infuriating. How can you refer to a lack of sources when I have two sources in my version that refer to the 5 MPs as affiliated with the party? I have also mentioned many times, as somebody that understand the Hellenic political scene, that the term "independent" in Greece, when referring to parliamentary issues, means what in Germany for example is called non-attached or in the EU "NI". Voorts issued a procedural warning and has not taken a position on the issue. Anyone who blocks and other such actions should see the discussion, in which I have mentioned arguments that are not answered. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 14:40, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

No we are not going to wait to establish a parliamentary group in the Parliament, because this is not how WP works in that issues, as I mentioned for other cases. The bar does not show the parliamentary group, it shows the MPs affiliated with the party. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 14:42, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Those "other cases" have reliable sourcing that explicitly recognises them as MPs for those parties, which we lack in this instance. The best we have is a singular MP from the group who've gone independent stating their intention to form an official group sitting as MPs for this new party at some point after Christmas. Rambling Rambler (talk) 14:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I have also mentioned many times, as somebody that understand the Hellenic political scene, that the term "independent" in Greece, when referring to parliamentary issues, means what in Germany for example is called non-attached or in the EU "NI". Voorts issued a procedural warning and has not taken a position on the issue.

This is quite literally Original Research. Wikipedia is built from sourcing details from reliable publications. It's not built from "editor declares they know best". Also Voorts explicitly stated that if anyone involved simply waits for protection to end and begins edit warring again it'll be a block.

How can you refer to a lack of sources when I have two sources in my version that refer to the 5 MPs as affiliated with the party?

Because those sources do not state what they want you to state. The sources state merely that 5 still recognised as Independent MPs are in some way affiliated with the party. That is not the same as formally detailing as sitting as MPs for that party.

The bar does not show the parliamentary group, it shows the MPs affiliated with the party.

No, the bar states the composition of MPs within a parliament. At present all five of those named as being associated with this new party are still formally recognised as Independent. Rambling Rambler (talk) 14:45, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler Those "other cases" have reliable sourcing that explicitly recognises them as MPs for those parties, which we lack in this instance. The best we have is a singular MP from the group who've gone independent stating their intention to form an official group sitting as MPs for this new party at some point after Christmas.

We have reliable sources. Please see at least the CNN source.

This is quite literally Original Research. Wikipedia is built from sourcing details from reliable publications. It's not built from "editor declares they know best". Also Voorts explicitly stated that if anyone involved simply waits for protection to end and begins edit warring again it'll be a block.

It is not original research. We know, from sources etc, that some MPs in the Hellenic Parliament that stands under the term "independent", are members or affiliated with other political parties. It is not original research to say, that in the country, an independent MP is something that may be different from independent politician. Is an effortless conclusion.

As for the block, Voorts and any other that wants to intervene or block someone, needs to see the discussion first, that's what I say.

Because those sources do not state what they want you to state. The sources state merely that 5 still recognised as Independent MPs are in some way affiliated with the party. That is not the same as formally detailing as sitting as MPs for that party.

Since your logic about only one case of "independent" is refuted, you move on to the logic of ... three? So here you are saying that there is a) the parliamentary independent who is also an independent politician, b) the parliamentary independent who is however an MP of a party and c) an intermediate situation in which the parliamentary independent can be "somehow" connected to a party but still be an independent politician? And if I understood correctly you think that because there is no website that says outright "the Democracy Movement has a group of 5 members in Parliament", then the case is c. This is the definition of original research and a far-fetched argument. Since the sources connect the 5 members to the party, who are in fact from the declaration to the party, then we are talking about case b (basically case c does not exist, it is your own creation). And the above is not original research, it is the logic of the wikipedia in all cases.

the bar states the composition of MPs within a parliament. At present all five of those named as being associated with this new party are still formally recognised as Independent.

These members are parliamentary independents, as in Greece you will either belong to a parliamentary group or be called parliamentary independent. This happens as mentioned above almost everywhere, the only difference is that other cases may have other names (see Germany, EU) and thus there is no confusion between parliamentary independent and political independent. "The bar states the composition of MPs within a parliament", I would say that it mainly refers to the parliament's infobox. The bar shows the parliamentary power that the party has, that is, the MPs who belong to it. Which are 5. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 15:13, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

We have reliable sources. Please see at least the CNN source.

I did read that source, nowhere does it state they sit as MPs for that party. Instead it has a ambiguous claim of being associated with them.

What does it mean "sit as MPs for the party". Is there any case of being part of the party but not sitting for it in the Parliament? KD outside the Parliament, independents inside the Parliament? This is ridiculous. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 16:35, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

It is not original research. We know, from sources etc, that some MPs in the Hellenic Parliament that stands under the term "independent", are members or affiliated with other political parties. It is not original research to say, that in the country, an independent MP is something that may be different from independent politician. Is an effortless conclusion.

It is Original Research because you aren't identifying or citing those sources, instead you keep making this claim to be a self-identified expert of some level and from that claiming to know a different aspect to this.

Firstly, do not refer to me ironically, that's ad-hominem, I did not say I am an expert, I said that I have knowledge (it's two different things), as I obviously am part of the Hellenic nation and citizen of the country. Secondly, you want sources for what? To explain you that an independent MP in the Hellenic Parliament can be a member of a political party so that an independent MP in the Hellenic Parliament could be a non-independent politician. Please... Hellenic Rebel (talk) 16:35, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I understood correctly you think that because there is no website that says outright "the Democracy Movement has a group of 5 members in Parliament", then the case is c. This is the definition of original research and a far-fetched argument.

No, that's literally how by wikipedia's own rules (again, actually read WP:OR and WP:ONUS) work. Unless you can show a reliable source that explicitly details them as sitting as MPs for a party you cannot make the claim. You tried to claim earlier "whataboutism" on two other parties where reliable sources to support those two parties came up immediately, something that has not happened here.

Please stop redirect to various Wikipedia rules and policies pages in order to propagate your personal opinion. That articles toy redirect, can be interpreted in different ways. Various websites provide information, such as in our case that 5 members of the Greek Parliament are part of the party. It's very irritating when users like you right now, try to push wikipedia policies to the limits of rigor in order to promote their personal opinion. Case c as I described it and as you are essentially claiming that it is true, is just something that don't exist. Politicians could be independents, and not-independents. 5 non-independents politicians that are part of KD, are standing within the Hellenic Parliament independently of any parliamentary group. That literally means that KD has 5 MPs in the Parliament, but not a parliamentary group. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 16:35, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

"The bar states the composition of MPs within a parliament", I would say that it mainly refers to the parliament's infobox. The bar shows the parliamentary power that the party has, that is, the MPs who belong to it. Which are 5.

So the problem then is you don't understand what the infobox bar represents. It is an explicit representation of how many MPs a party formally has in parliament, not those we see as aligned to a party outside of parliament itself. If you want a famous example of this, see Jeremy Corbyn who was explicitly counted as an Independent MP in parliament despite still being a member of the Labour Party until 2024 due to having the whip suspended which was reflected on Wikipedia. That's the same principle as we have here, until such a time they take their seats representing this new Democracy Movement, these 5 MPs are independents regardless of any outside political membership they may or may not hold. Rambling Rambler (talk) 15:34, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Jeremy Corbyn, of course. Yesterday, I saw that. Your argument is wrong, for the following reason: the former leader of the Labour Party, together with four other members of the House of Commons, have established a parliamentary function. Here we have the opposite case: the House of Commons, unlike the parliaments we are referring to, is used to recognizing parties even cases where a party has 1 MP). Independent Alliance is a parliamentary function. While, the page of this particular group on Wikipedia, normally presents its parliamentary power in the bar as it should. However, the example of the UK, is inappropriate, it is not a similar case. Similar cases are Germany's not-affiliated MPs and the European Union's NI. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 16:35, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

That's completely incorrect and ignoring everything I linked. Corbyn formed this "Independent Alliance" in 2024, but maybe actually note his seat has been marked as Independent since 2020 because he wasn't sitting as a Labour MP since them despite being a member of the Labour Party which is what I just evidenced with reliable sources.

This is the exact same circumstance. These 5 MPs, as far as we have available reliable sources to demonstrate, are still sitting as Independents despite having an affiliation to this new party/organisation. As a result they are not sitting as MPs for this new party and therefore should not be referred to as such. Rambling Rambler (talk) 17:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler The cases where party members have left their party's parliamentary group while it exists in parliament, is indeed a strange situation that should have been settled centrally by a decision of the community, regarding how this could be presented in the various information boxes. But here we have a much simpler case, why are you complicating things? Hellenic Rebel (talk) 17:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Because you're not citing reliable sources that actually state they are sitting in parliament as MPs for this new party.

It's that simple. You just keep making a plea that as a self-described expert that you know better than the parliament's website calling them Independents, multiple newspapers still labelling them as Independents, and as quoted in an interview one of the MPs themselves stating they're still an Independent at present.

You are actively going against all our core policies on verifiability and living persons but won't listen. Rambling Rambler (talk) 17:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Rambling Rambler First of all, above while I answered your arguments one-by-one I say "do not refer to me ironically, that's ad-hominem, I did not say I am an expert, I said that I have knowledge (it's two different things), as I obviously am part of the Hellenic nation and citizen of the country.". Seems you can't understand that... Secondly, please don't please don't play, we have sources saying the party has 5 MPs, do you want to contain the word "sit". Literally, don't you understand that your point is just a ridiculously strict interpretation of WP policies? Also, where exactly am I against WP policies? You just say stuff and you redirect at policies etc... You either just throw that stuff in the discussion or trying to interpret them in the strictest manner you could. This is not happening here. The discussion is much simpler and obvious than you try to make it: a) 5 MPs of the Hellenic Parliament are in KD, b) we have sources saying that, c) we have other similar cases where parliaments and their parliamentary groups do not present the parties that are not able to form a parliamentary group but have MPs in the parliaments. That's the facts, that's the policy. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 17:40, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

It's not ad hominem to point out that your repeated referring not to sources but your own claimed knowledge as though you know better is fundamentally a breach of our policies.

All you keep doing is finding sources that say that they have a personal affiliation with Movement for Democracy (something no one is disputing) but then using them to say instead that is proof they are sitting as MPs for that party when we literally have sources saying this is not the case including quotes from at least one of the five MPs stating they are still Independent.

And you can claim all you want about how "obvious" your claims are but if that were the cases you'd have been able to actually reliably source it at any point over the last month and this dispute wouldn't happen. But you can't. Rambling Rambler (talk) 17:53, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

The infobox is clearly about the party's parliamentary representation. The essentially reliable source is the website of the Greek parliament which you can see here. Τhe also prestigious NGO [Vouli Watch page https://vouliwatch.gr/parliament] agrees with the page of the Greek Parliament. The rest is original research. 130.43.76.152 (talk) 18:42, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, you don't understand: these are the parliamentary groups. Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Rambling Rambler I think it is very useful to keep in mind that this user has been blocked 17 times on the Greek Wikipedia for the same reason: disruptive editing — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.43.76.152 (talk) 18:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

ad-hominem... Hellenic Rebel (talk) 21:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Hello and Merry Christmas. @Quinby As I see no other users are interested, while in the discussion the two of us support the version 5/300 and one user (+ one anonymous which from its behavior I am not going to take it serious) support the current version. It seems there is no chance of unanimity. I believe that the arguments I have raised are in line with Wikipedia's policy and I think we should go back to the version with the 5 MPs. Do you agree? Hellenic Rebel (talk) 14:56, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Ip is as anonymous as you are, using a pseudonym! and of course, you can add the addition IF YOU CAN FIND A SOURCE that confirms that the democracy movement has a parliamentary group. 130.43.76.152 (talk) 18:06, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

I added a commenting request here https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Greece#Movement_for_Democracy_(Greece) 130.43.76.152 (talk) 18:16, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Not only is consensus not a vote but you have not met policy in the slightest. You have failed to provide any sources supporting your demanded changes, a basic violation of policy on requiring reliable sources, and are instead entirely basing your demands on claims of having superior knowledge you can't evidence.

All you are doing is demonstrating a refusal to change your behaviour which, as per your talk page, several people have warned you about regarding this article alone. Rambling Rambler (talk) 23:03, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 21 December 2024

Please add the category Category:Pro-European political parties in Greece as this is cited on the page. Helper201 (talk) 21:46, 21 December 2024 (UTC) Helper201 (talk) 21:46, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Done User:Someone-123-321 (I contribute, Talk page so SineBot will shut up) 07:10, 24 December 2024 (UTC)