Talk:Middle Eastern crisis (2023–present)/Archive 1

Archive 1

Moved to Draft

I've moved this article to draftspace as it's not ready for the mainspace and can't be worked on by the creator due to a contentious topics restriction. CoconutOctopus talk 22:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Title?

I am not enamored with the title of this article. Perhaps something a bit more encyclopedic like Middle East Crisis of 2023-2024? Suggestions welcome. -Ad Orientem (talk) 17:34, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Agree. Using the word Spillover would be an obvious propaganda, overtly politcal, OR, and bias magnet par excellence. It would open the article up to anyone's published opinions about cause and effect.

It reminds me of the name options when the China–United States trade war article was started. There were fewer non-tabloid stories that referred to it as a "war." In fact, most U.S. political leaders, including then President Trump, Peter Navarro, Jamie Dimon or China's President Xi Jinping, said it was not a war, but a dispute. For the same reason, I question the purpose of WP prematurely promoting it as a "Crisis," for the entire Middle East.

It's worth noting that soon after N. Korea started testing missiles in 2017, UK tabloids (i.e., Express, The Sun, Daily Star, Mirror, Independent, etc.) published multiple news stories about it with "World War 3" in their headlines. Light show (talk) 21:59, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Light show in saying that, if we consider "spillover" to be too presumptive or unsubstantiated, than we would reach that same conclusion for replacing spillover with "crisis". I might support something more along the lines of "Middle East conflicts of 2023-2024". 2G0o2De0l (talk) 02:56, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. This presents what's going on in the Middle East as if it is one singular issue rather then multiple interconnected ones. This article itself is problematic because what defines if something is "spillover" is highly debatable and diminishing a conflict (say, the Red Sea Crisis) to effectively an ancillary conflict related to the Israel Palestine war is dubious. DarkSide830 (talk) 04:18, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

  Hi DarkSide830. Could you clarify for me? I'm not sure what it is that you are opposing. 2G0o2De0l agrees that the current title is suboptimal. -Ad Orientem (talk) 04:57, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

  I don't think "crisis" as a title is appropriate because we aren't talking about one particular event. I get the desire to move from the "spillover" term on for the reason I listed above, but truth be told I'm not sure what purpose this article serves otherwise seeing as it more or less is currently written to connect related but clearly distinct conflicts in the Middle East. DarkSide830 (talk) 05:09, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

  I'm not over attached to the crisis title. That was just something I was tossing out off the top of my head. But I really think the current title is far too vague and frankly it sounds unencyclopedic. I'll ponder it and come back tomorrow. It's getting late here, and I need a little sleep. -Ad Orientem (talk) 05:21, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose: As the creator of the article, I dont believe that it should be changed at all, it is after all a spillover, no? Also the article is standard with other spillover titles so we shouldn’t break standard even if it is “propaganda”. 136.52.11.187 (talk) 02:51, 15 April 2024 (UTC)

Splitting proposal

Today I created the article 2023-2024 Middle Eastern Crisis. I WP:BOLDly moved the conflicts section of the body here to that article so that it could be used as a base for the article (that would be substantially changed later). There is concerns over this, since it would dramatically shrink the size of this article, so under that circumstance consensus over the matter seems to be needed. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 21:01, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

I strongly oppose a split. The article already isn't that long, and yes if this were split there would be almost nothing left here [1]. I just can't see any possible reason why a split would be warranted, it's not warranted based on the article's size and the content here versus in the proposed article are essentially the same. Any split would result in an inevitable WP:CFORK. estar8806 (talk) ★ 01:26, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Support a split. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 13:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Rather than a split, I believe a move may be a better idea since the draft page at Draft:2023–2024 Middle Eastern crisis is essentially a modified fork of this page with the scope expanded to include the Israel–Hamas war. Once the draft page is ready, moving that page to mainspace and redirecting this page there can be considered. VoicefulBread66 (talk) 12:52, 19 October 2024 (UTC)

Support this idea instead of a split. DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 04:45, 20 October 2024 (UTC)

@Fantastic Mr. Fox: @Estar8806: Do you support the new proposal? If so I believe the move can be done since there isn't much else I can add to the draft page. VoicefulBread66 (talk) 14:05, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

I'm comfortable with that being presented as an alternative, but I'd have to read a proper RM proposal before I could make a judgement. estar8806 (talk) ★ 21:56, 22 October 2024 (UTC)

It definitely could work. Support Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 14:40, 23 October 2024 (UTC)

Should this be considered a 'Fifth-Arab Israeli War'?

WP:ECR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:02, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Israel is at war with Hamas and Hezbollah, two Arab psuedo-state organizations, as well as in conflict with the Houthi's who are also Arab and various smaller groups. Prior to the recent mergers the conflict with Hezbollah and these other Arab militias was as of late was considered 'spill-over' of the Israel-Hamas war, a sub war of that. So if they're considered part of the same war, would that not be an Arab-Israeli war? Not proposing changing the title, none of the Arab-Israeli Wars outside the first one are titled that(Suez Crisis, Six Day War, Yom Kippur War), but It's usually included as an alternate title. This fits the pattern established by that, doesn't have to be the whole Arab world, two entities is more than enough(1956 was just Israel and Egypt in fact) and we already considered it part of the same broader war (Current Hezbollah conflict was listed as spillover of the Hamas war on that page prior to it's merger here) 2604:3D09:1F7F:8B00:DD60:853E:E305:8A11 (talk) 05:20, 26 October 2024 (UTC) (I will also note more Israeli's have died in this current war than in the Second or Third A-I wars, and we're rapidly approaching the numbers of the 4th one. More Arabs have died in this one then in any of the other 4. Scale isn't an issue here) 2604:3D09:1F7F:8B00:DD60:853E:E305:8A11 (talk) 05:23, 26 October 2024 (UTC) No source calls it that so no. 78.182.138.236 (talk) 06:20, 26 October 2024 (UTC) Iran isn't Arabic Sgnpkd (talk) 17:55, 27 October 2024 (UTC)

Another article already exists

WP:ECR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
This article discusses the same scope as 2024 Iran–Israel conflict, which i oppose its name since it’s not very widely used. Should we suggest a merge of both articles and rename to middle east crisis? 78.182.138.236 (talk) 06:21, 26 October 2024 (UTC) I don't have much to add but I do agree with your proposal: the article you linked is indeed redundant. AsyarSaronen (talk) 14:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC) @78.182.138.236 They are not the same scope. The 2024 Iran–Israel conflict covers the direct confrontation between Iran and Israel (the missile strikes), which is a part of what is covered in this article. I do agree that the Iran section of this article could use a rewrite, though. VoicefulBread66 (talk) 02:17, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Differences between the Gaza Strip War and the broader picture across the Middle East

Requested moves are not edit requests. WP:ECR. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:59, 28 October 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I'm a bit confused about the characterization of the events ocurring in the Middle East, and whether they should be characterized as simply a crisis or several fronts of the war surrounding the Gaza Strip. You see, I don't view the conflicts between the State of Israel and Hamas, and that of the S.o.I. and Hezbollah to be completely separate nor a spillover, but rather two fronts of the same war. I personally prefer those two fronts to be characterized as the Gaza Strip War (2023-Present), as although they have different actors fighting in different countries and territories, at the core is the social and political state of the Gaza Strip, as all paramilitary and/or terrorist groups fighting with Israel have all shared conditions explicitly related to the Gaza Strip as prerequisites for a ceasefire, kind of like in the Bosnian War, the heart of the conflict was the political status of ethnic groups within Bosnia and Herzegovina, the Congo Wars are named as such because the core reason was a change of regimes in the DRC, and the Algerian War, although it was primarily waged between France and the Algerian National Liberation Front, was at its core all about Algeria's future, with secondary but no less serious reasons like France's treatment of nationalists and its colonial empire also being present. Anyhow, what I have a problem with Wikipedia is that there is a bit of vagueness when covering the conflicts, in that each front is a war solely between Israel and an armed extremist paramilitary group, but when all conflicts are put together, it is simply referred to as a "crisis", and that they don't have enough of a correlation to be called different fronts of the same war. Now, some of the conflicts definitely are fronts of the same war between Israel and it's Arab paramilitary enemies, such as that in the Gaza Strip or Lebanon where there is hand-to-hand combat between Israeli forces and Arab terrorists and paramilitaries, but some others have a weak but still significant correlation to the conflict, such as the 'Islamic resistance in Iraq' attacking US military bases, or Iran striking ISIS-affiliated groups in Iraq and Syria, with actions like those of the Houthis against Israel sitting in the middle; all occurring in 2023-4 in this heightened and tense climate throughout the middle east. So what I propose is that the main page for the "Israel–Hamas war" be merged with that of the "Israel–Hezbollah conflict (2023–present)" and be renamed "Gaza Strip War (2023-Present)", so as to make this page more digestible for readers, and have a clear separation between conflicts that are direct fronts of the war over the Gaza Strip, like those of Hamas and Hezbollah vs Israel, and those who are more indirect, like the Red Sea Crisis and IRI attacks within Iraq, including their attempted attacks against Israeli soil. But what do you think? GabMen20 (talk) 20:19, 26 October 2024 (UTC) @GabMen20 One problem with merging the Israel–Hamas war and the Israel–Hezbollah conflict articles is that that may end up making the merged article far too long. And well, whether the Hezbollah conflict is considered part of a Gaza Strip War is... debatable, to say the least. I mean, yes, they are all part of a related conflict, but I don't think it's in the sense that it's part of a Gaza Strip War. Also, the appropriate forum to discuss a merger of those pages would be the talk page of either the Israel–Hamas war or the Israel–Hezbollah conflict. VoicefulBread66 (talk) 02:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)