Talk:Maria of Alania

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Maria of Alania

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 01:16, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Empress Maria (Martha of Georgia) → Maria of Alania — Nickname or not and historical mistake or not, Maria of Alania was the name that history knows this women by.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 05:02, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The "history" of which you speak apparently does not include Georgian sources because in all of them she is not known as Maria of Alania, but as Princess Martha or Martha-Maria. She may have been a Byzantine Empress but she was still a royal princess of Georgia and this article does not belong to Byzantine historians. The present name is a good compromise, provided that "Maria of Alania" is explained in the footnote.--Andriabenia (talk) 09:07, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted the move made during discussion and included Maria of Alania as an alternative name.--Andriabenia (talk) 09:10, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment -- I know little of the subject, but it is appropriate that trhe alternative name should exist as a redirect. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:33, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It does exist.--Andriabenia (talk) 17:40, 25 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I get 69 relevant post-1980 English language Google Book hits for "Empress Maria," -Alania, 165 for "Maria of Alania", and 0 for "Martha of Georgia". Moreover, being "empress" and "of Alania" are not mutually exclusive. The issue is "Maria" vs "Martha". The overwhelming consensus in the RS is that the subject primarily notable as a Byzantine empress named Maria. Kauffner (talk) 10:36, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The reason I included Martha of Georgia in the main title is to distinguish her from other Empress Marias, kind of like Alexandra Feodorovna (Alix of Hesse). I can remove Martha of Georgia from the title if you find another way to distinguish her from other Marias but I am against inaccuracies like Maria of Alania; we could note it only in the text.

As for your search results, google books is not an exhaustive source of all published books, not to mention that such writings are not published exclusively in English, so I'm not sure what you are trying to prove with this.

Finally, yes, "empress" and "of Alania" are mutually exclusive because Maria never carried any Alan titles and this causes an unnecessary confusion. --Andriabenia (talk) 11:13, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One of the options is Empress Maria Doukaina, since she was Maria of the Doukas dynasty--Andriabenia (talk) 11:53, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The title is supposed to be the subject's name as it most commonly appears in the modern secondary sources. If disambiguation is required, it should be an elaboration of her common name or a parenthetical classifier, not an alternative name. I don't know that it matters whether she was actually from Alania or not. It's just a name. After all, Joan of Arc wasn't from Arc. I bet Adam Smith never did any metalwork either. Kauffner (talk) 12:05, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We do not know how it appears most commonly in modern secondary sources, we know how it appears in a fraction of modern secondary sources available through Google books, and in English. D'arc was her actual last name, even as it had nothing to do with title or origin, and I don't even know how this is relevant in this case. If you want to go by the last name, then Maria's last name was Bagrationi and still not "of Alania". Lastly, many wrongs don't make something right.--Andriabenia (talk) 13:02, 26 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 8 October 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 04:59, 22 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maria of Alania → Maria of Georgia – Consistency e.g. Irene of Hungary, Rita of Armenia, Keratsa of Bulgaria, Anna of Moscow etc. She was daughter of Bagrat IV of Georgia, and from the Kingdom of Georgia, so she should have title of Georgia. An emperor /// Ave 00:17, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. She is known as Maria of Alania. Srnec (talk) 23:06, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support George I of Georgia in some sources is similarly known as George of Abasgia but that doesn't change the fact that George I of Georgia is the most appropriate name for him -Ercwlff (talk) 14:32, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. George I of Georgia is a reigning title. She was not a ruler of Georgia. There's no reason to abandon her common name for that. There's no consistency with consorts, which varies greatly. They go by their common names, with disambiguation when necessary. Walrasiad (talk) 16:55, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. The subject was born as Martha of Georgia, and apparently had a sister called Maria, on whom we have an article, Mariam, daughter of Bagrat IV of Georgia. When Martha of Georgia went to Constantinople, the Byzantines had her name changed (as they typically did) to Maria, and always seem to have referred to her (for whatever reason, but they seem to have referred to her quite frequently) as "Maria of Alania" rather than "Maria of Georgia". We are far better sticking to her common name rather than changing to a name she apparently never used, and which would risk confusing her with her sister. PWilkinson (talk) 23:48, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. The corresponding Greek article is el:Μαρία Αλανή; and if the Byzantines called her "of Alania", that's good enough for me. Narky Blert (talk) 13:25, 21 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Maria of Alania/Mariam Bagrationi

What determined her to be known as Maria of Alania, whilst she was of Bagrationi dynasty and a princess of the Kingdom of Georgia? What do historical sources of that time or later times refer to as?

I think it would be better and would avoid a lot of confusion if we changed Maria of Alania into Maria Bagrationi. Lemabeta (talk) 15:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]