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Talk:Liverpool F.C.–Manchester United F.C. rivalry/Archive 1

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Archive 1Archive 2Archive 3Archive 4

Beardsley

When did Peter Beardsley play for Manchester United?????????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.47.134.89 (talk) 10:15, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

According to his article, Beardsley was with Man Utd between 1982 and 1983. He made one appearance, in the League Cup against Bournemouth in 1982. – PeeJay 14:33, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
FA source confirms this (see under "about"). Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 19:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Removed from Hooliganism section

I removed the following since it's not supported by citations and is opinion based:

United's "Red Army" took huge numbers to Liverpool on match days and were particularly brutal. This was seen as a result of resentment due to United underperforming at this time while Liverpool were going through their most successful period in time.

I removed the following paragraph as the source article did not exist. "At the 1996 FA Cup Final, an unidentified Liverpool fan spat at Eric Cantona and threw a punch at Alex Ferguson as a victorious Manchester United team walked up the steps at Wembley Stadium to collect the trophy from the Royal Box.[15]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by BobSlayer91 (talk • contribs) 13:56, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Kasbee (talk) 13:05, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

UEFA Champions league cup

Man U won that one in 1999; why is that not mentioned in the table?98.176.12.43 (talk) 02:59, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

What table?, what do you mean?
  – HonorTheKing (talk) 17:16, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

The Daily Mail article cited makes no mention of Liverpool fans chanting Munich songs, although it does say that the travelling Manchester United support rehearsed chants about Hillborough and Heysel. Find a citation if you want to say these things. In the meantime I have amended the article to reflect the citation.89.211.250.155 (talk) 12:20, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Organising the article

I am trying to organise this article so that it makes sense and is worthy of being part of Wikipedia. There is huge scope for fans of both teams to take severe umbrage against what is included here, and as such it needs to be as concise and opinion free as possible.

I am trying to equalise the content and specific language used (including deliberately repeating certain NPOV phrases when listing trophy victories etc.) and seek to include but not downplay the record of success for each team. All the various terminology included (European trebles, domestic doubles etc.) makes large sections of the text unwieldy. I kept much of this language here at the moment and tried to make it opinion free and fair to both sides, but may I propose removing much of the text under the 'Football Rivalry' section and instead presenting the information on what has been won by each club in a table? The most recent changes by PeeJay2K3 have removed 700+ characters from the text but I think we need go further, it can now be read as a list of Manchester United boasts ('a record 12 titles' etc). Please do not think I am criticising you personally PeeJay2K3, this section is almost impossible to present from a NPOV while still being easily accessible.

The structure I propose is:

1. Roots

1.1 Inter city rivalry - Keep this section, and I will find a more acceptable reference stating why these games take place at lunchtime (or else we remove the text until someone can find such a quote). We all know that the police demand that any games not at a neutral venue start as early as possible, but actually finding it written down from a verifiable and NPOV source is another matter. I will keep looking.

1.2 Football Rivalry

Have an introductory paragraph stating that Liverpool won 11 league titles and 4 four European cups from 1973 to 1990 and that Man Utd have won 12 leage titles and two European cups from 1993 to present. I think it is also relevant to state that Man Utd won the Intercontinental Cup/Fifa World Club cup twice in this period here as it is the highest ranking tournament (officially if not truly heralded by all fans).

May I suggest:

Liverpool dominated English football from 1973 to 1990, winning eleven league championships and four European Cups, including several seasons in which they won multiple trophies in both domestic and in European competitions. Similarly, Manchester United have dominated English football since 1993, winning twelve league championships and two European Cups. This has also included several seasons in which they have won multiple trophies in both domestic and in European competitions.

Manchester United have also won the Intercontinental Cup/FIFA World Club Cup twice since 1993.

The two clubs are thus the most successful English sides in European and domestic competitions, with Liverpool having been European champions five times (securing 11 European trophies overall), while Manchester United have been European champions three times (securing 5 European trophies overall). Manchester United have won 19 English League Championship titles, while Liverpool have won 18. Manchester United currently have 34 domestic honours, and Liverpool have 33. These figures are correct to May 2012.

______

I appreciate that this is not wikified, but it removes all the posturing language about record numbers of premier league wins or highly complicated language about what constitutes a footballing 'treble' or 'double' and whether cups count or not.

We should then follow this by including the table of combined honours directly underneath.

1.3 Players Rivalry

This is another minefield. Could we simply state that both sets of players are known to have an intense rivalry on the pitch, and maybe include one quote from each team and a neutral one from another source to support this. Or delete the whole section and add it into the next section (currently 2.1 Player Transfers)?

Mwmonk (talk) 12:05, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

What is considered a major trophy?

The box for major trophies excluded the Charity Shield because it is not a major trophy, however it contained the Super Cup. They are about as equally important as eachother, the charity shield is a game between the two domestic cup winners, and the Super cup is a game between the two winners of the major European trophies (Champions' League and UEFA Cup). Therefore I took out the Super Cup for the same reason the Charity shield was taken out. If it is to be included, I think the Charity Shield should be also included. 81.153.39.254 11:56, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

All trophies should be included. Manchester United has won 60 and Liverpool 59. Stop counting in your own way. Stop vandalizing the page by substracting trophies. It's not 44-41 to Liverpool. Thank you Psyrras Panagiotis 13:58, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

There are references provided for how to determine which trophies are major trophies. Major trophies should be competed for by a significant number of the top clubs and should take place over multiple rounds across a significant part of the season.

It is clear that the Charity Shield and UEFA Super Cup are not equivalent to the Premier League or the UEFA Champions League.

Major Trophies

Premier League (and predecessors) - round-robin season-long tournament competed for by the top 20 clubs

FA Cup - knockout season-long competition competed for by top 92 clubs and hundreds of lower-ranked clubs

League Cup - knockout season-long competition competed for by top 92 clubs

UEFA Champions League (and predecessors) - knockout and round-robin season-long competition competed for by top clubs from European leagues

UEFA Europa League (and predecessors) - knockout and round-robin season-long competition competed for by top clubs from European leagues who did not qualify for Champions League


Minor trophies

Community Shield (and predecessors) - pre-season friendly single-match between FA Cup winners and Champions from previous season

UEFA Super Cup - single-match between Champions League winners and Europa League winners from previous season

Intercontinental cup - single-match between the winners of the European Champions' Cup and the South American Copa Libertadores.

Club World Cup - week-long knockout competition between 7 FIFA confederation championship winners — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.6.180.113 (talk) 17:35, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

How can you possibly say that any of those "minor" trophies are less important than the others when you have to win a so-called "major" trophy to even play in them? Some countries even consider the Club World Cup to be the biggest of the lot. Furthermore, the Community Shield is not a friendly, it's an official competition. You want to talk about friendlies, take a look at the International Champions Cup. I understand that the Community Shield doesn't get quite as much respect as the others, but it's still an important honour. Next you'll be telling me the League Cup shouldn't be considered a major competition because the big clubs play their reserves in the early rounds! – PeeJay 19:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Requested move

Liverpool F.C. and Manchester United football rivalry → Liverpool and Manchester United football rivalry — For continuity purposes, Liverpool contains the F.C. at the end of their name whilst Manchester United doesn't, we don't need their full club names just their common names. — --Jimbo[online] 12:51, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's naming conventions.

Discussion

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