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Heavily Biased Edit

The most recent major edit of this article is ridiculous. It is full of unfactual informartion and convenient ignorance of the truth to heavily favor Liverpool. For starters, any other subsequent rivalry page on wiki uses total honours to count trophies as that is the least subjective form. For some reason, this one uses a highly subjective "major honours" system which puts Liverpool top of the trophy count when otherwise United would have won more. Conveniently such a trophy measure was NEVER used when Liverpool led United outright in honours in years past. The source is based off the unreliable and poorly maintained FIFA website, which despite not counting the English Super Cup (Community Shield) as a major trophy, it counts the Dutch and French Super Cups as such as well as REGIONAL tournaments for a few other clubs. This hypocrisy makes the source unreliable and not suitable for use per wikipedia's terms on source credibility.

The author then states that UEFA's website list 44 trophies for liverpool and 41 for United as they dont count the club world cup. This conveniently ignores that UEFA dont count that tournament as it is not in their jurisdiction but this is never stated. It also doesnt add the term "major" to the trophies as that changes the meaning entirely from overall trophies, which United have more of (the fact United have more honours is totally ignored throughout even though its a totally valid point in comparing historical success. It is then totally fabricated that United dont list the intercontinental cup on their website and list 40 major trophies. These statements are blatant nonsensical lies as the United website does show the aformentioned cup and merely lists 62 honours. The word 'major' isnt even used on the website!

Continueing on, the author uses sources from 2004 (which he doesnt quote properly and conveniently ignores the talk of total honours in the same source and only mentions the part about "major trophies") and quotes inaccurately from other sources (using the telegraph's major trophy article to reference the belief in the "major trophy" count when the article clearly shows lower division titles as major honours, making it unclear what their criteria is.

With such an illogical, unfactual and nonsensical piece of work currently submitted as the main edit for the article, I move for it's removal and a far more just and accurate portrayal of reality to replace it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Davefelmer (talk • contribs) 14:39, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

It might come as a surprise to you, but this is not some grand conspiracy against Manchester United (if it were, it would be a pretty pisspoor one). Manchester United's own website draws a distinction between major and "other" honours. It categorises the Club World Cup, Intercontinental Cup and Charity/Community Shield as "other honours". This then leaves the MUFC website as counting the 20 league titles, 11 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 3 European Cups, 1 Cup Winners' Cup and 1 Super Cup (total = 40) as major domestic or European honours. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 06:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
As I've explained before, there is no distinction between "major" and "other" honours on the Manchester United website. What there is, is two groups of honours that were easily categorisable into sets of three, leaving three left over. The honours under "Other" are just as valid as the other six, they're just of lesser value than the other six. But that's not to say they're of no value, or even that they should be categorised as "other". My point is, when you have a group of nine items to display in an aesthetically pleasing way on a web page, the best way to do that is clearly to split them into three groups of three. Just because three of them ended up in a group called "Other" does not make them "minor" honours, nor does it make the other six somehow "major" honours. – PeeJay 07:56, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Davefelmer (talk) 13:40, 29 August 2015 (UTC)The term "major" is never used at all anywhere on the site. It lists trophies and then "other HONOURS". It is simply listing all honours and this is corroborated by the "trophy room" section that lists all those trophies together. And it does also list the intercontinental cup......on page 2 if you bothered to have a look. Such blatantly unfactual and biased information cant be allowed to stand.

It's not on page 2 because there is no page 2. It's right there on the main page... – PeeJay 16:09, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Davefelmer (talk) 16:44, 29 August 2015 (UTC)more to the point then


Davefelmer (talk) 16:52, 29 August 2015 (UTC)The fact that United have more honours should be acknowledged in the intro; the major honour table can be kept but to present the neutral, unbiased all sides to the argument, it must be stated that while Liverpool have more "major trophies", United have more honours. Every other wiki rivalry page has honours tables instead of major trophy tables and ours should acknowledge this even if you persist on this "major honours" count. All agreed?

Davefelmer The sources used are FIFA, UEFA, the clubs and the media in that order (ie: order of prominence). You seem to want to include the "Other Honours" to make your favourite clubs seem better, but to do that you need to find sources that are more prominent than the ones used. This has all been discussed at length already. If you can bring yourself to read the Liverpool club website, you will see that including "Other Honours" for both clubs would still not achieve your goal. Chrisuae (talk) 17:38, 29 August 2015 (UTC) Chrisuae

Davefelmer (talk) 18:31, 29 August 2015 (UTC)are you for real? If you can "bring yourself" to read ANY similar wikipedia club rivalry page, you will take note of the fact that they all use HONOURS as the trophy system and not "major trophies" as that is extremely subjective and not clearly defined. It is you who is insistent upon using a trophy count not consistent with ANY other page of this type to make YOUR club look better. In any case, major honours are not the same as honours overall and the fact is that United have more honours and this should be duly noted at the intro in order to give a balanced view of all perspectives.

Davefelmer We've been through all this - you need to cite sources and do so accurately, not just assert made-up "facts". Other Wikipedia articles are not valid sources WP:CIRC and if you find some that are not sourced you should add "citation needed" or edit them to include a valid source. The websites both have lists of "other honours" and that still puts your team in second place. If you include the trophies on both "other honours" lists it's 90 - 62 and no other source does this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chrisuae (talk • contribs) 18:53, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Davefelmer (talk) 19:51, 29 August 2015 (UTC)no it is not because liverpool include youth and reserve honours. If you add the relevant trophies United have won from those competitions, United are ahead once more. Made up facts are like stating United list 40 major honours on their website. THAT is a made up fact.

Davefelmer, we are in agreement. Listing all of the honours on the "Other honours" part of the two clubs' websites does not belong in the article. That's why, after much discussion and mediation, it was done how it is - listing only the ones the clubs list on their main honours lists and not the "Other Honours" lists that include friendlies, reserve trophies, charity matches, testimonials, youth events, lower-tier competitions, etc. Chrisuae (talk) 01:54, 30 August 2015 (UTC) Chrisuae

Davefelmer (talk) 06:17, 30 August 2015 (UTC)no we are not in agreement. The United website does not use the word 'major' to differentiate the honours anywhere on the website, therefore the statement of them showing 40 major honours is a complete fabrication as that is not stated anywhere. It is only Liverpool that show friendlies and youth tournaments as honours just because the club knows that if they list the normal honours, people will see United have more. This honours system is corroborated by the BBC article referenced, the Guardian article from 2004 that you used as a reference and Sky Sports' official website [1] amongst others. To not include it in order to balance any argument is nothing but favoritism and wont be allowed to stand.

Furthermore, the rules of wikipedia clearly state that unless something is clearly defined with all views covered, it should not be published. This page is full of unfactual information and unreliable sources. The FIFA website is admittedly poorly maintained and this is shown by the inclusion of regional tournaments and foreign versions of the Charity Shield as major trophies for some clubs but not major trophies for others. The UEFA website excludes the CWC because it is not in their jurisdiction but this isnt mentioned. The telegraph article referenced for United and Liverpool's trophies contains information that doesnt corroborate what is written while the other telehraph source shows second division titles for Liverpool but not so for United when United have won several. It really is a case of very little to no reliability across the board for judging which club is more successful, however, you have blatantly swung the facts to clearly favor liverpool and have ignored every trophy count by which United are more successful. such rubbish wont be allowed to stand until a truly neutral and FACTUAL piece is submitted.

Personally, I believe any honours that are listed by at least two independent sources (i.e. not the clubs themselves, or their official stats sites, e.g. www.stretfordend.co.uk) should be listed here. You can talk about "major" and "minor" all you want, but it's all bullshit. If two independent sources list an honour, it's clearly worth mentioning here. As for all this rubbish about FIFA and UEFA considering different honours worthy/unworthy of inclusion, we don't have any outright statements about why they don't include certain honours; without those explicit statements, we have no indication of the reliability of those organisations as sources. After all, what gives FIFA and UEFA the authority to consider one honour more worthy than another? All that really matters, per WP:RS, is what any reliable, third party sources think, and FIFA and UEFA are not really third parties, as they are football governing bodies with a vested interest in particular points of view. – PeeJay 20:42, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Davefelmer (talk) 20:33, 2 September 2015 (UTC)Exactly, thus the content page should be removed altogether or reverted back to the original version that was here at the start of August. At the very least, something has to be done about the blatant lies on this page. Agreed?

Davefelmer, there's no conspiracy here. The sources are accurately represented. It was decided not to list the minor honours that appear on the club sites in the mediated discussion. I've added wording to reflect that the clubs list "Other Honours" in tables on their websites away from the main lists hopefully without distracting from the main information. Please stop accusing those of us who agreed to the previous wording as "liars" and read the mediated discussion so we don't have to keep repeating. Chrisuae (talk) 04:45, 7 September 2015 (UTC) Chrisuae

The sources are NOT accurately presented though. Liverpool do not have an "others" section on their website yet you claim they do. Furthermore, the United website cleary states that all trophies listed are "major" (http://www.manutd.com/en/Club.aspx) thus your assertion that "other" means "not major" is incorrect. This is corroborated by the club going on to say they are more successful, something they wouldnt be true had your assertion about what trophies they count as major been correct (http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Features/Club-News/2014/March/Manchester-United-Museum-free-access-in-March-2014.aspx). This must be changed to accurately reflect the reality. Davefelmer (talk) 17:51, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11668/9832843/roman-abramovich-title-triumph-is-15th-trophy-since-chelsea-takeover

Neutrality Issue

The telegraph sources provided at the end of the trophy count section should be removed as they fail to provide a neutral point of view as per wikipedia guidlines (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view). The one summarizing Liverpool's trophy haul includes second division titles to bolster the count while the United equivalent does not (when the club has indeed won 2). Furthermore, the Liverpool one acknowledges that the club won the Lancashire League in their first season and includes it (a regional cup no less) in the official count while the United one, despite acknowledging the Manchester Cup triumph in the club's first season (a similar regional competition), does NOT include it in the count. Hence, the sources blatantly favor Liverpool and cannot be used as reliable evidence. It would be like finding an article that lists all of United's trophies, then finding one that lists all of Liverpool's minus their FA Cup wins and then using them as a comparison. Its not fair and goes against wikipedia guidelines. Davefelmer (talk) 18:29, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the sentence about 65/62 should be removed, because the two articles appear to be inconsistent. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 18:49, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

Further source concern

The sources used to back up the claim of eliminating all super cups to count trophies making it 41-39 is NOT backed by the first source in that list (last time since each club won a major trophy) as it included lower division titles thus making it's criteria unclear.

Furthermore, the guardian source is extremely dated (2004) and refers to not only the major trophy count but also the total major honour count that favours United 62-59. Thus, at the very least, it can be used to back up the United sources as well. Otherwise it should be removed due to its internal contrasting nature making it impossible to side with one claim over another. Davefelmer (talk) 14:16, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

Rebuilding in progress

Apologies for the piecemeal approach to the article at the moment, below are some of my plans:

  • I am working to introduce a stronger background to the rivalry with less recentism. In particular I want to expand the footballing rivalry to pre-1970, and discuss some of the early successes in the 1900's that must have had some influence on the initial rivalry but are unmentioned. If anyone can provide sources for these events it'd be much appreciated, otherwise I will take a look and see what I can find myself.
Side-by-side comparison of Celtic's and Rangers' final league positions from 1891-2015
  • The fan rivalry section is currently just about hooliganism and bad behaviour. It needs some balance. Yes it's a fierce rivalry filled with bad taste (football eh?) but there are positive aspects to the rivalry too.
  • I am going to re-build all the tables to auto-size so that they fit into any browser and work on mobile devices.
  • I'd like to see a chart of league positions similar to the one on the Old Firm article (see to the right)
  • I will import some additional images from the relevant club pages to enhance the appearance of the article.
  • Expand on notable matches.
  • Expand on notable players.
  • Expand on notable managers.
  • Included in the above is to introduce some nice quotations from players and managers.

I will introduce full citations for the historical content that I have currently expanded on. I just haven't had time yet to fill out the cite templates. Koncorde (talk) 16:31, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

I am migrating over the rebuilt version of the article from my sandbox. There are still a lot of bare references to work through. Koncorde (talk) 00:01, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Honours/trophies.

Instead of saying honours and major trophies, we should use trophies and major honours. Not everyone understands what an honour is as the official meaning can be a personal distinction and the idea of a so called major piece of silverware will still be understood with the term major honour (as it is widely used in circles that count "major" silverware anyway).72.229.9.167 (talk) 05:42, 26 March 2016 (UTC)

I disagree. The term "honour" is commonplace in football parlance and is used on hundreds of other articles. We shouldn't change this one article just because you think people might get confused. – PeeJay 12:12, 26 March 2016 (UTC)
Football Honours may indicate instances were a trophy wasn't necessarily awarded. That just happens to be the section covering one part, rather than the wider section relating to honours. Koncorde (talk) 01:23, 27 March 2016 (UTC)

1992-present section. Source 36 needs removing

There are two ways of listing Major trophies. 1. The season-long trophies, which for over 50 years have been called Major Trophies. The 3 Domestic, and 3 European,later morphing to 2( including the old Fairs Cup ) 2. The FIFA and UEFA method which includes prestigious international Titles (Though UEFA ignores the Intercontinental Cup) Pundits on TV often have a caption below stating how many 'Major Trophies' the ex-player has won. With a quick correlative check it is one of these two methods. Under both these methods Liverpool lead by 1. This lead, in all probability, will be lost next season anyway. Source 36 -as I have commented on below the table it has 'produced'-is chaotic and biased. It confuses the ICC with the WCC, it omits Utd's Cup Winners'Cup, and their (abandoned after the first leg) Super Cup of '91, and all 3 of Liverpool's Super Cups. With these put in, Liverpool lead by 1. Now, there may have been a BBC article which listed all trophies and therefore included Community Shields, but this is a one-off, and never implied this was a list of Major Trophies. The consensus over decades has been to never include the Comm Shield. Two reasons; 1. It was often shared. 2. In the event of a Double, another team is provided for opposition, sometimes a representative 11, as in 1961 after Spurs' historic first Modern Double. 3. Though it has some prestige it is considered a pre-season friendly. So, the only 'source' which provides a 'dispute' as to who has the most Major Trophies, has accidentally(on purpose?)left out 3 Super Cups for Liverpool. So all 3 sources have Liverpool ahead. There is NO DISPUTE.

22.02 115/06/2016 Enkayaitch (talk) 19:02, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Both the BBC and Talksport articles disagree and rank Man Utd above Liverpool. It is therefore a matter of opinion and perspective (as is your entire post where you have established a consensus about the Charity Shield with no evidence). Koncorde (talk) 21:35, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

As I wrote to you on your talk page, firstly, there is no official definition of a 'major' trophy and several countries that do count them tend to count them differently. if you want to continue to say there is some magic definition that has stood for 50 years, please provide sources to prove this. secondly, as sources DO prove [1] many countries do count domestic super cups like the community shield as a "major" trophy. Futhermore, to say it is a friendly is completely unfactual as it is a registered competitive fixture as per the FA, as is any other domestic super cup. thirdly, the FIFA article you linked is completely inconsistent on a club by club basis, including community shield equivalents for french and dutch clubs for example as "major honours" but not english teams. it also includes regional trophies for african clubs such as Al-Ahly but not others. the lack of a general standard for what it deems 'major' added to the fact it is very poorly maintained with several recent club honours for many clubs not even added makes it very unreliable. UEFA's website you linked is biased towards its own competitions, not recognising the club world cup as an honour nor any club's inter cities fairs cup wins (neither compeitition is and was under UEFA jurisdiction). I think if you look closely you'll find everything is fair as is. there are multiple sources proclaiming each club as more successful than the other, and that is what is reflected.Davefelmer (talk) 12:01, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

As I have explained to you plenty of times on your talk page, there is no point in stocking up the Liverpool side of the argument on major trophies. There are many sources for both clubs but we cannot list them all. Please stop trying to add sources as it will make the article messy. I agree though that some of the sources are out of date in light of Man Utd's FA Cup win, and will find suitable replacements. Davefelmer (talk) 07:58, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://www.myfootballfacts.com/English_Domestic_Football_Stats.html

Premier League and First Division Titles

Why are these seperated in the honours section? They are essentially the exact same league title, just with a newly branded name after a while. There is no need, imo, for a divide between them. Davefelmer (talk) 01:43, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Because they are different. Although both are the de facto (or even de jure) English top flights, the Premier League was set up as a separate entity. When it was founded, the 22 First Division teams all resigned from The Football League and all the other teams were moved up a division. It simply isn't factual to say they're the same competition. – PeeJay 09:49, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Derby name

Have seen labels like M60 derby and the 'battle of Lancashire' as alternative names

the cities themselves have a strong rivalry regardless of team (everton against man utd/city would be fierce too) but rivalry transcends sport like in economics and culturally. first railway line opened connecting the two cities and manchester ship canal undermined the port of liverpool.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.168.11.115 (talk) 09:02, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Where have you seen these alternative names? If you have reliable sources for them, of course they should be added to the article. – PeeJay 13:55, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Trophy haul comparison issue

Looking at the article history, this is obviously a contentious issue. The article as it stands now is subjective in choosing one method, total. I added both perspectives: trophies that are widely considered as major, or “leading” as The Times put it, followed by the total. I then omitted any labels (so no “major”, or “leading”) by stating, “When league titles, FA Cups, League Cups, European Cups, UEFA Cups and European Cup Winners Cups are totalled, both clubs are level on 42 trophies won.” I then sourced this with The Times, and talkSPORT (the latter i used for consistency as it’s also used for the total). Dave felmer then argued, “you dont get to pick and choose what to count and divide trophy haul”, yet talkSPORT, a source that covers both (considered major, and total), only one is used. Furthermore, Dave felmer contradicts themselves having made this edit on 3 June, “United have won more total trophies than Liverpool, while the two clubs are level in terms of so-called "major" honours.” They cover both perspectives, which I have done, but it’s not wording I’d use so I removed the subjective terminology and just listed the trophies followed by the sources.

The issue is the article is cherry picking by choosing one method, and in doing so also chooses a source that has total trophies while leaving out the same source that also has the other method. Rather than subjectivity, why not just list both perspectives, and in the process leave the reader with clarity. Nampa DC (talk) 22:30, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

As I briefly was able to mention to you in the edit summary section, the very term 'major' trophy is entirely subjective, picked out on an arbitrary basis by sections of the English press to better define what is 'worth' winning amongst a total trophy haul. It has no officiality to it, the term is not even used outside of Britain which makes it irrelevant, unhelpful and confusing to the majority of readers, and it is entirely arbitrary plus there is no clear definition for what even constitutes 'major' silverware. For instance, you defined it as the competitions listed above, however other sources [1][2][3] include the FIFA Club World Cup for example. The only factual, encyclopedic way to measure who has won more trophies is to count them all without arbitrary attributions of prestige, which the BBC and SKY Sports (the most reliable and authoritative sources on British football) both do amongst others, so they are the sources utilised for the section.

I did previously agree to a small note on 'major' titles in the intro after the total trophy hauls but have since simply agreed to the perspective of and formed a consensus with others like Koncorde and PeeJay who have argued against them. It is simply a project policy not to use the idea of 'major' titles because it is unencyclopedic and not official. Davefelmer (talk) 03:46, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://metro.co.uk/2017/03/04/liverpool-legend-jamie-carragher-reminds-manchester-united-fans-of-treble-taunts-6487690/
  2. ^ https://www.90min.com/posts/4636357-manchester-united-officially-overtake-liverpool-as-england-s-most-successful-club-of-all-time
  3. ^ https://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/official-manchester-united-knocked-liverpool-off-fking-perch-114889

Separate article for the women's teams

Should there be a separate article for the women's teams? LC1829 (talk) 21:29, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

I started such a discussion over here to discuss what is the correct action for this and other rivalries. Koncorde (talk) 21:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 March 2020

Change: "Each club can claim historical supremacy over the other: United for their 20 league titles to Liverpool's 18 and Liverpool for being European champions six times to United's three. Manchester United lead in terms of total trophies won, with 66 to Liverpool's 63."

To: "Each club can claim historical supremacy over the other: United for their 20 league titles to Liverpool's 18 and Liverpool for being European champions six times to United's three. Liverpool lead in major trophies with 47 to Manchester United's 45[1]. Manchester United lead in terms of total trophies won, with 66 to Liverpool's 63." Marciano118 (talk) 15:44, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Previously discussed. The issue is there is no official definition of a "major" trophy, and just because supposed bigger trophies have an increased profile it does not mean the historic significance of other trophies has been diminished per WP:RECENTISM. As the season opening match of the football league it was historically a high profile match between the two main champions of England, the cup winner and league winner. That it has lost some of its polish due to the rise of European football post European Cup becoming the Champions League and regularly 5 or more clubs now playing in both that and the UEFA League is another sign of WP:RECENTISM. It is also clear that the significance of such trophies depends on your clubs perspective or valuation of such competitions. The obvious example of this is the Football League Cup. This was until very recent memory called the "Mickey Mouse Cup" because of how little it was valued by big clubs (seen as largely detracting from the league) but it is almost always included in these lists as is the UEFA Super Cup which is little more significant than the Charity Shield. Even the Club World Cup in England was largely viewed derogatorily, and only with recent successes has it become kind of significant. Koncorde (talk) 16:16, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.givemesport.com/1531829-liverpool-now-two-trophies-ahead-of-man-utd-as-englands-most-decorated-club. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |title= (help)

Article Name

This article should be renamed to the "North West derby" as it is a commonly used name for the rivalry and where the derby has a name that should be the name of the page. Mn1548 (talk) 17:04, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't actually see much evidence that it is known by that name very much in the English-speaking world. I just googled the term "north west derby" – the first result was this article, the second was a Quora page asking what the rivalry between United and Liverpool is called, and none of the rest were from particularly high-profile media sources. It took until the second page to find a newspaper source talking about this specific rivalry, and that was the Independent, who titled their article "Liverpool v Manchester United: The greatest north-west derby encounters". It seems to me that the term "north-west derby" is more descriptive than nominative. – PeeJay 19:30, 6 July 2020 (UTC)
For my Google search the Quora page was 5th, this article 2nd, and latest results 1st. I also found quite a few pages describing the match as the North West derby, some are of questionable reliability, but other include 90min.com and The Independent:

Don't know if this is sufficient or more is needed to justify a name change. Mn1548 (talk) 13:52, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

You say that like you think it’s just a matter of numbers to decide whether the title is changed. Please look closer at the quality of your sources and you’ll see it’s not good enough to justify a change. – PeeJay 22:57, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Not sure if there isn't already a redirect but one wouldn't hurt probably. However I do overall agree with Peejay. One issue for me is that as it is a "regional" derby rather than a local derby it is likely to be very much unclear to which teams it refers (even more so than very specific London teams involved in the North London Derby). It neither refers to the country, nor the county, which also leaves it with weaker connotation that Derby's such as the Black Country Derby. Koncorde (talk) 23:22, 8 July 2020 (UTC)
Indeed. Just looking at the first link from 90min.com, it's unclear whether it means that the rivalry between United and Liverpool is the north-west derby or if it's say there are multiple north-west derbies (e.g. City v Liverpool, Burnley v Blackburn, etc.) and it's the one between United and Liverpool that defines English football. Similar concerns could be raised about the others. It's simply not that prominent a name for this rivalry; you wouldn't know these were the two teams involved just from this name. – PeeJay 10:02, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Removed opinion

"Liverpool is the most successful club in English football history due to the number of trophies they have won."

Has been removed. Whilst Liverpool have won more trophies overall, Manchester United have won arguably the three most significant trophies the most - FA cup, Championship, European Cup/CL. The claim assumes the League Cup is counted as a significant trophy, and that the winning of more league cups is of similar significance to the winning of more FA cups. This is quite clearly a matter of opinion and not encyclopaedic material. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.9.135.152 (talk) 12:31, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Liverpool have won more titles and European Cups than Manchester United: they are the most succesfull team in the history of english football. Fry2000 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fry2000 (talk • contribs) 11:21, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I signed in because I want to talk about the Sheriff of London Charity Shield with you guys. Tell me what else do you want me to do so you finally understand that it is actually a trophy. TheBrBa (talk) 13:44, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Why don't you answer? Tell me why the Sheriff of London Charity Shield isn't a trophy and I'll stop. I'm editing something based on facts and you wipe it away calling it "vandalism" without explaining. Tell me please why it shouldn't be counted TheBrBa (talk) 13:08, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

The Sheriff of London Charity Shield is as much a trophy as the Texaco Cup or the Watney Cup. No one is disputing its existence or the fact that Liverpool won it, it's just that it's a very minor part of football history, and people who include it in lists of honours are usually just trying to bloat Liverpool's trophy haul. It's not the same competition as the FA Charity Shield, it just has a similar name. – PeeJay 13:33, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

Ok I guess I'll accept that. It matters most in the total count of top flight trophies and not for the rivalry. Thank you very much for the reply though, appreciate it. TheBrBa (talk) 13:52, 24 January 2021 (UTC)

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