Talk:List of Democratic Socialists of America public officeholders

List ordering

What is the standard being applied for listing this individuals? Alphabetical by last name or by year of first office? I see both being employed and also random additions. JesseRafe (talk) 16:39, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Bump. Anyone have an objection to first organizing by year of office, and then by state, and then by last name? JesseRafe (talk) 14:16, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

DSA members who won elections with other parties

The FEC Form 2's for both Rashida Tlaib and Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez list their party affiliation as Democratic Party. Since these are partisan seats won on Democratic Party tickets, should they be listed on this page? Wjlafrance (talk) 23:30, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

DSA is not a party. O3000 (talk) 23:31, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Ron Dellums, John Conyers and Major Owens were all DSA members elected to Congress as Democrats. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:39, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Danny K. Davis =

I noticed that Danny K. Davis (US Representative from Illinois, 7th district), who had previously been on this list is no longer on it. It seems well-established that he is a DSA member – he is listed as such on Danny K. Davis, with several sources supporting this assertion (). Is there a precise definition of "DSA member" that should be used for membership on this list? --2600:1700:975C:430:15E3:995A:B2AC:FF5 (talk) 21:34, 17 July 2020 [(UTC)

References

Added back. Didn't bother to find the edit that removed him (Ctrl+F on history found no "Davis", so perhaps done without edit summary). If I had to guess a good faith reason for his removal was he might not be a current member (which is not a requirement of my understanding of the tense used in the article), or the ref in the prior version was poor, which I didn't bother clicking on because looked like inflammatory nonsense. Replaced with the two refs from his page and above, note to IP: Do not confuse endorsement with membership for trying to establish any other entrants. Thanks for bring it up! JesseRafe (talk) 12:23, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I'd like to challenge his inclusion here or at least suggest we should try to put an end date on his DSA affiliation. I'm not able to find any records indicating when we can definitively say that the split between Davis and the DSA occurred, but I believe DSA only endorsed his challenger Anthony Clark in the 2018 and 2020 races. Paradoxsociety 22:54, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

It does appear that Davis is no longer an active member, though he was in the past. Maybe we should somehow distinguish current vs past members on this page? It may be hard to get concrete membership date ranges, though. --BadgerPriest (talk) 00:28, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

@JesseRafe, Paradoxsociety, and BadgerPriest: Per "DSA specialty: Toppling incumbents" from the DSA magazine Democratic Left, Danny K. Davis is not listed under "DSA Members Who Won Election to Public Office Nov. 3rd" (exact title from printed version). While it's possible that DSA is not aware that a Congressperson is a member of its organization, I think this more likely indicates Davis is not currently a dues-paying DSA member. Davis should not be removed entirely because sources show he was once a member, but maybe he should be listed under "Former" or differentiated with a note/color-coding of current vs former DSA members. --Tvc 15 (talk) 02:09, 5 January 2021 (UTC) @Cullen328: --Tvc 15 (talk) 02:13, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Endorsement ≠ Membership

Several sources in this article (especially in the sections for state/municipal legislators) cite articles that only contain endorsements from local DSA chapters and do not mention whether or not the individual is a member of the organization. The organization endorsed Sanders for president in both 2016 and 2020 despite there being no documented evidence of his membership. Is there a reason to believe that the organization only endorses members? --SeizeDaMeanz420 (talk) 11:15, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

No, endorsement and membership are not the same thing. Literally anyone with a few dollars can be a member.--User:Namiba 12:27, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Not sure about DSA endorsement criteria, but this list should include DSA members rather than any holder of public office endorsed/supported by DSA.--Tvc 15 (talk) 00:37, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Here are the National DSA endorsement criteria. Local chapters can set their own. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:46, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Many of the editors trying to say politicians endorsed by the DSA are actually members of the DSA are clearly biased. Unless a reliable source states the elected official or candidate is a member of the DSA, then that particular person should not be identified as being a member. I think an examination of every official identified as a DSA member is needed. Thriley (talk) 17:12, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to assume that WP:CONSENSUS has been met and remove Monica Montgomery from the list. Am I wrong? Kire1975 (talk) 09:25, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kire1975: I think a better approach is suggested by the last line of the introduction: "The present list notes # such officials (including national endorsees, local endorsees, and non-endorsed members)." Similarly, the "Federal" section mentions whether the person is a member, endorsee, or both.

I have WP:BOLDly undone your edits, and will add some information in this vein to the people listed here. SocDoneLeft (talk) 19:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for tagging me. A person who is endorsed by an organization is not necessarily a member. To say otherwise is against the 6-1 WP:CONSENSUS in this talk space. To add additional criteria just to keep one person on this longer than long list because you think it's a better approach is not it. I'm boldly reverting your edit and Calling for additional consensus. Kire1975 (talk) 19:27, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

Furthermore, this 51K character edit reverts a justified edit and ignores the stated reason in the edit summary See WP:LISTPEOPLE: if they don't have a Wikipedia page, they don't meet the the Wikipedia notability requirement. And to say "membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources" in the reversion's edit summary needs more justification. There are WP:PRIMARY sources that say a lot of them are endorsed but not members. Kire1975 (talk) 19:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kire1975: Happy to.

RE: Membership vs endorsement: I don't think consensus in 2021 holds 3 years later, especially when an easy addition (a column discussing membership/endorsement) also adds information to the article. The consensus in 2021, if it is that, could not have considered this alternative.

RE: WP:LISTPEOPLE: Just to clarify a term: WP:LISTPEOPLE asks about "membership in the list's group", which would mean "membership in the group of people who are DSA public officeholders". Within the context of this article, "membership" means "membership in DSA". This article has clearly aimed to include both members (endorsed or not) and endorsees (member or not), so anyone meeting either criteria should meet the WP:LISTPEOPLE criteria of "membership in the list's group". SocDoneLeft (talk) 21:59, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kire1975: As one last note on the membership vs endorsement point: The person in question who was removed in 2021, Monica Montgomery, is currently on the page. If this was a consensus, it's probably not held by most current editors of the page. SocDoneLeft (talk) 22:16, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

It adds information that is undue. The consensus in 2021, if it is that, could not have considered this alternative. Nothing becomes WP:CONSENSUS by being labeled so. Seek it.

This article has clearly aimed to include both members (endorsed or not) and endorsees (member or not) Only after you added the new information.

Monica Montgomery was removed in 2024, based on the consensus that was on the talk page on 3 August 2024. Thank you for pointing out that she was back. I have removed her again based on the consensus on the talk page that is still here.

If you would like to change consensus, WP:TALKDONTREVERT. Kire1975 (talk) 16:02, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kire1975: This is absurd. There is nobody else talking here but you and I. You removed 50k of text from a page -- clearly, text considered relevant by other editors. What consensus?

Please defend your view on its merits, not with reference to a non-existent consensus. SocDoneLeft (talk) 16:22, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @SocDoneLeft, their interpretation of WP:LISTPEOPLE is reasonable, and clarifying the precise relationship of elected officials with DSA adds information to the article. TheRedCharlotte (talk) 19:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

According to the edit summary, the names were removed because, according to WP:LISTPEOPLE: Because the subject of many lists is broad, a person is typically included in a list of people only if both of the following requirements are met: The person meets the Wikipedia notability requirement. It had nothing to do with the second and only reason that SocDoneLeft stated The person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources. Both requirements must be met to be in compliance with WP:LISTPEOPLE, not one Kire1975 (talk) 21:29, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kire1975: WP:LISTPEOPLE also states:

In a few cases, such as lists of people holding notable positions, the names of non-notable people may be included in a list that is largely made up of notable people, for the sake of completeness.

A majority of the list was notable people, a minority was non-notable people backed up with a reliable source. This clearly fits the "sake of completeness" criteria, and is what most editors preferred.

The fact that a local politician does not have a page does not necessarily make them non-notable. The vast majority of "non-notable" entries on this list (at least, for city council & above) could easily have pages. For a random example: Justin Cummings, (local paper, uni press release) in 10 seconds of Googling. In addition, entries like this make the list complete & in alignment with the number listed in each section title.

The view that I'm supporting is clearly the one supported by most editors of this page, which is why very few people had removed those entries before your revision.

I would suggest a compromise: Include all electeds at the city council level & above (whether they have a page or not), but remove non-page-having electeds for "other local offices", where individuals are far less likely to be notable. Would that work for you? SocDoneLeft (talk) 06:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

The list would be largely made up of non-notable people the decision were to go this way. The city council section would be 28 notable to 74 non. Kire1975 (talk) 07:16, 19 August 2024 (UTC)

@Kire1975: You're treating "having a page" as "notable". My point above was that (1) many city council members without a page are still notable and (2) for the sake of completion, including even non-notables makes sense.

I won't add back non-notable members/endorsees. However, but it seems clear (from the fact that they were included en masse and on this talk page) that most editors do wish to include both members and endorsees. I will add back members. SocDoneLeft (talk) 15:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Clear as mud. Kire1975 (talk) 14:54, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Too many minor, non-notable entities

This list is already past being in danger of becoming, and is firmly now wp:listcruft. I am going to make the the bold edit of removing some of these trivial local and state offices, that are not elected by the public at large. E.g. State committee of the Dems. There are 10,000s of those. Those people are not notable for that position and that position will never, ipso facto, make any notable contribution noteworthy enough to pass NLIST. In NYS there are many hundreds of state committee people (district leaders) and many thousands of county committeemembers, that are "elected" but don't actually hold "office". Same as other state's (e.g. Nevada's) partisan governing body. That's not elected office. There's no legislative or executive function, just a deliberative body for a volunteer/advocacy organization. It's like if the state league of conservation voters chose their executive committee, we wouldn't add those names if they were DSA members. It makes the article look bad giving all of this ticky-tack positions the same space as a member of Congress or a State leg or a City Council. If I had my druthers, I'd remove all these water commissioners and school board people too. Who cares? They're unlikely to be notable, but I'm not familiar with how these positions are "elected" or function without spending more time. Also, I am going to be removing all of those without a source explicitly declaring them to be members. Endorsements that don't say "XYZ Chapter of DSA endorses our member Joe Schmoe" "or we congratule member on their victory" are just endorsements, not indicative of membership. JesseRafe (talk) 13:12, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Carlina Rivera

Rivera ran as DSA in 2017, won, and the references for her being on the current chart reflect this. Her most recent campaign this year was wiped clean of any kind of DSA affiliation. Is she still DSA?--Wikitikitengo2 (talk) 03:08, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

The above blocked user was the one who removed the DSA reference on Rivera's own page. If you're trying to defend yourself as not being a sock, make your contradictory edits with your different accounts, don't gainsay yourself as the same user! Oy. Anyway, yes, we don't have a source that she is, on November 5, 2021, an active DSA member. Just as we don't for any of these named individuals beyond their contemporaneous status at election. JesseRafe (talk) 13:11, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Continued addition of poorly sourced members

Ikpode678, I've mentioned this poor sourcing several times already. You must stop doing it. Take your last edit, the edit summary is 100% false - we can't use primary sources like twitter in the first place but how is Osse's membership in 2020 for an election in 2021 for office in 2022 proof of "current"? That's textbook OR and SYNTH. Lander actually specifically states he's not a member. It goes on and on. You seem to be interested in DSA (almost exclusively) and perhaps want to make them look good by aggrandizing their membership numbers among electeds. But bloating this article with poorly cited and poorly sourced errata does not achieve that aim and actually makes DSA look like it's grasping at straws for tenuous relevance. We need strong third party news sources that specifically tie them to membership in the organization. Of the actual DSA members who hold real state, local, and federal office, membership is not hard to come by. Please discuss your broad changes on the talk page or read up on the welcome links on your user talk. JesseRafe (talk) 14:02, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

In my opinion, we should clearly only use a primary source like a Tweet from a DSA account if it explicitly calls them a member, not just an endorsee. A tweet by DSA saying that they are a member is a credible source that they are a memebr (at least at the time of the Tweet). However, a tweet just saying that they are endorsed definitely does not confirm that they are a member; for example, Bernie Sanders was endorsed by DSA (and many of its chapters) in both of his presidential runs, but to my knowledge he has has never been a DSA member.

I also would like to express my agreement that we need to do a better job on making sure that we are using credible sources. And we also need to address link rot. e.g. "Support DSA Delegates at the DNC" no longer works.ROADKILL (talk) 05:44, 6 October 2023 (UTC)

Western Pensylvania State Representatives who are no longer DSA memebers

Summer Lee is no longer a DSA member. In their 2022 elections the Pittsburgh DSA has not endorsed Lee or Sara Inamarato.

References

OK, that would be a source to move Summer Lee from current to former if you had a date her membership ended, but not to delete her. Endorsement is irrelevant to membership, in both directions, as stated again and again in this talk page and years of edit summaries. Further, if Inamarato is no longer a member of DSA, she still was, and as stated, we do not do revisionist history here and delete formerly factual information when we have two clearly labeled tables for "current" and "former" members. JesseRafe (talk) 17:17, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

Worth pointing at that this article only seems to mention that she left the Pittsburgh chapter. She could still very well be a member of the national organization "at-large". Maybe this is something we can add as a note. Also, as mentioned elsewhere on this page, endorsements are not necessarily indicative of membership. You have to apply for an endorsement from the organization both on the local and national level and many elected officials feel that the process isn't worth their time once elected. As such, many elected officials who are members of DSA do not end up getting formally endorsed for re-election. For this election cycle, Tlaib is the only US Rep. on this page who has been endorsed for re-election by the national organization. This doesn't mean that Ocasio-Cortez, Bush, and Bowman are no longer members, they just never pursued an endorsement this election cycle. --ArticleEditorFriend (talk) 06:22, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree it's a sloppy connection that she is not a member of DSA and could easily be interpreted that she just left the chapter. And, yes, the first couple of reverts were because the above user simply relied on lack of endorsement, the counterpositive of the oft-ocurring addition of folks who were merely endorsed but without proof of membership.

Also, AEF, I'm a little hesitant about adding Jumaane in the Council. He's long held he has Dem-Soc values and aligned with a few DSA campaigns and pols (like Lander in both instances) but this is the first I've ever heard of him stating DSA membership, and it's quite temporarily removed from his elected membership to the Council. JesseRafe (talk) 13:07, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I believe Williams only formally joined the DSA after becoming Public Advocate. As far as sources go, the only other decent one that I can find is another NYT article. Still, it's a reputable source and adding multiple articles from the same publication seems redundant, so I'll keep it as is for the time being. He was affiliated with and worked with the organization beforehand, but I believe he only formally joined after his tenure on city council was over. Still, this is supposed to be a complete list. I believe Tlaib's time in the state legislature predates her formally joining the organization, but its still included here (albeit improperly sourced). This article is supposed to be a list of offices held by DSA members, not a list of offices held by people during their time in the DSA. --ArticleEditorFriend (talk) 13:22, 26 May 2022 (UTC)

Adding State Senator-elect Zaynab Mohamed under State Officials | Upper houses

I would like to add State Senator-elect Zaynab Mohamed under State Officials | Upper houses. I am currently blocked and need an edit request approved to get unblocked.

KARE 11, a television station licensed to Minneapolis and serving the Twin Cities area as an affiliate of NBC, among others, reported State Senator-elect's election on November 9, 2022.

There are at least three sources confirming State Senator-elect Zaynab Mohamed's membership in the organization.

1.) The organization itself, Twin Cities DSA, specifies that State Senator-elect Zaynab Mohamed is a member below her name on their 2022 Endorsements page, where one can see that they distinguish between four candidates who are members and two candidates that have received an endorsement but are not members. The organizational also specified membership below her name on their 2022 First-Round Endorsements page.

2.) Another is the community newspaper Southside Pride, which covered the story on November 14, 2022. In the third section, the author writes "Zaynab Mohamed, DSA member, for state Senate District 63" in a list of Twin Cities DSA candidates who won their elections.

3.) A third that states DSA membership explicitly is the Student Newspaper of Lawrence University. In the sixth paragraph, the author writes "Zaynab Mohamed won an open seat, becoming the third DSA member in the Senate."

Additionally, in the following article, the author writes in the 13th paragraph that "elected officials do have the chance to advance bills at the state level, particularly in Minnesota, where five DSA members will serve in the state House and Senate," which refers to the four already on this list (Omar Fateh, Jen McEwen, Aisha Gomez, and Athena Hollins) + Zaynab Mohamed. Similarly, in the following article, the author writes in the second and fourth sections that "[a]ll six of the candidates endorsed by Twin Cities Democratic Socialists of America — including four state lawmakers — won their races" and that "[t]he small but growing cohort of DSA members holding office in Minnesota could push for a wider embrace of the movement's progressive politics and policies." These two articles specify membership rather than merely endorsement as well as the number of elected officials in the group, which corresponds both to the names in this list (and their sources) as well as to those mentioned on the organization's two aforementioned pages.

UnPeuPar2 (talk) 22:49, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

References

UnPeuPar2 (talk) 08:50, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

@UnPeuPar2  Done Cheers. Duke Gilmore (talk) 14:08, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

State Officials List

The list should be organized by state rather than having all the states mixed together in order to make it easier to see how many officials each state has and who they are by state. 2603:7080:400:7826:ADFC:DAB8:A451:F143 (talk) 21:00, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Suggested edits

I am a Mid-Hudson Valley DSA member.

Phil Erner did not seek reelection so he is now a former elected official (his term was January 2022 - December 2023). Proof: https://www.dailyfreeman.com/2023/01/25/several-ulster-county-legislators-including-one-who-unseated-long-term-lawmaker-say-they-wont-seek-re-election/

Gislle Martinez represents Newburgh not Poughkeepsie. Proof: https://x.com/mhvdsa/status/1749640724633600219 2603:7000:B700:1E39:1585:4A23:5BAC:4BBE (talk) 08:43, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Add caveat

Suggest adding language to the effect that only elected officials with Wikipedia pages are listed (since that is the case). It'll be helpful to readers who search in vain for elected officials they know or think are DSA-endorsed. Arkunets (talk) 02:04, 18 September 2024 (UTC)