Talk:List of Christmas carols/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Erroneous Reverting of changes removing Carols/Songs from English Section to American Section

I noticed errors in the list for English Carols, and I have corrected for these errors but they have continuously been reverted by User:Walter Görlitz to its inaccurate state. These errors included carols misplaced in the English section and songs that should not be on the list.

The first issue is related to a confusion of the Carol Star of the East where there are two Carols (one American and the other English) that are known by the same name. The English carol is better known as Brightest and Best and was written by Reginald Heber in 1811, however the version listed in the English section directs to the American carol, Star to the East, along with the information that cites German Alfred Hans Zoller as writing the song under the title Stern über Bethlehem (Star above Bethlehem), with American George Cooper translating the words in 1890, and music by Amanda Kennedy in 1883. I moved this carol to the American Section where it is recognised as belonging to and added the information related to the English carol known as Brightest and Best to the English section with a note accompanying both Carols to Not to confuse with each other. The two Carols are completely different Hear the American carol here and the English carol here

The second issue is in reference to songs that do not belong in the English section and/or are not related to Christmas. These songs included: Mary, Did You Know? which lists "words from American Mark Lowry, and music by Buddy Greene" I Pray on Christmas which lists "written and by Harry Connick Jr." Both songs are American written and produced and if it is to be included should be in the American section and not the English.

In reference to the first song Mary, Did You Know?, this song is not related to the birth of Jesus (Christmas) but rather his death and resurrection (Easter), despite its wiki article claiming to be about Christmas, the song does not make mention of the nativity but rather his dying to save us all (listen to the song here). The Second song I Pray on Christmas by Harry Connick Jr. is a popular Christmas song (Listen Here). if this song is valid in this list then so are songs like All I Want for Christmas Is You by Mariah Carey, and Fairytale of New York by The Pogues

This needs to be changed with the relevant songs associated with the American section moved there and those associated to the English section moved to that section. The removal of these popular songs needs to occur. They can appear the Popular Christmas Song list and User:Walter Görlitz needs to cease reverting valid changes. If he is adamant of these songs appearing on the list and in the sections he keeps reverting to, then he needs to provide citations to back up his argument as specified in WP:RS

Each verse OF "Mary, Did You Know?" starts with "Mary, did you know/that your baby boy ...". How in the world is that about his death and resurrection?

You are creating an artificial divide between carols and songs. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:31, 11 December 2020 (UTC)

And the song ends with the lyric, "The sleeping child you're holding". The song is a nativity tune not unlike "Still, still, still".` Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:07, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

And yet throughout the song he applies past tenses "Did you Know" instead of future "Do You Know" and not once does the song make reference to the nativity. If anything you have demonstrated, is that the song is badly constructed. I think my point has been made with your response (look up what constitutes Baby, I think you will find that the mention of the word Baby boy does not necessarily mean newborn and cannot be applied to the nativity in this circumstance, considering he mentions none of the events of the nativity but rather making blind men see and deaf men hear. A baby is not a baby for one day).

What is your explanation for the Harry Connick Jr. song I Pray on Christmas?, and Why are you repeatedly adding this song to the list?

And more importantly Why are both Mary, Did You Know? and I Pray on Christmas placed in the English section when there is an American section when both songs are American written, produced, and preformed?

I have not created an "artificial divide between carols and songs" (as you put it), that does not already exist, otherwise songs such as All I Want for Christmas Is You, Fairytale of New York Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree, Last Christmas and many many other songs about Christmas would all have a valid reason (as you put it) to be included in the list. The consequence would be that the list would expand exponentially to an unsustainable rate and would not function as it is suppose to, whereby an individual or individuals will request it is broken up into different wiki articles (which happens already) labelled differently (which is the difference between Carol and Popular Christmas Song) so that people can digest the information and seek out what they are looking for more easily. By adding both Mary, Did You Know? and I Pray on Christmas you are pushing the quantity over the quality of the article which is harming its effectiveness. Why push so hard on these two songs and not on any of the other Popular Christmas Songs I have listed above? I suspect you are not taking a WP:NPOV and you are letting your overtly Christian values to fog your objectivity and see the forest for the trees.

All the same I welcome that allowed the move of Star of the East to the American section and adding of Brightest and Best information to the English section, but on the other issues you need to come to your senses for the benefit of the article

Did you know is not past tense, it's future perfect.

I don't know about "I Pray on Christmas", but it's got the term in the title. Why are you repeatedly removing it from the list? I'm restoring it because it was added by someone for a reason, but I know for a fact you're wrong about "Mary, Did You Know", about formatting song titles (you italicize them here), and about WP:LISTGAP, so assume you're equally wrong about that. Find out who added it and ask them and the previous editors who removed songs from the list why it's here. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:46, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, the tense is actually a bit more complex, "did you know that ... will", but still quite future. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:31, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

What term does "I Pray on Christmas" have in the title that entitles its inclusion on this list? Is it "I prey" or is it "Christmas"? If you are suggesting "I Prey" is the vital term in the title, then you are mistaken, being religious does not necessarily imply Christmas, which is the same problem you make with "Mary, Did You Know" which does not mention anything about the events of the nativity. If you think the term "Christmas" is the vital element in the title that validates inclusion on this list, then you are mistaken, for the reason as I have already pointed out to you previously. Just because someone packages something up and throws on a label does not necessarily mean it is what it claims to be. The writer and performer of this song, Harry Connick Jr., does not even claim that the song is a Christmas carol. There is no mention of anything remotely related to Christmas in the song (Traditional or modern), other than the term Christmas. If Christmas is the vital term that enables inclusion on this list, then why not All I Want for Christmas Is You, Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree, Last Christmas, All Alone on Christmas and many others to be included. At least these songs are based around the period of Christmas. Then again what about Christmas novelty songs, such as All I Want for Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth, Nuttin' for Christmas, I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas, I'm Walking Backwards for Christmas or many others with Christmas in the title, do they not deserve to be included based on your logic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.42.201 (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Just because someone added the songs to the list, does not mean they should be included. According to Wiki guidelines, they should be within scope of the article (in this case Christmas Carols not Popular Christmas Songs) and therefore "I Pray on Christmas" violates WP:OOS. I do not need to contact the individual that put the song onto the list, to seek out his/her motives for doing it according to wiki's guidelines. The burden is on the individual who wishes to add something to the list to prove that it is relevant. According to wiki guidelines they must provide appropriate citations as to WP:RS. When User:Walter Görlitz repeatedly reverted the omitting of "I Pray on Christmas" and "Mary, Did You Know", he took over the burden of providing the evidence that both songs are valid for inclusion. Saying "I know for a fact" for "Mary, Did You Know" which violates WP:OR and I don't know about "I Pray on Christmas", which violates WP:UNDUE, and does not constitute a valid reason for their inclusion. By repeatedly adding the song when you admit you don't know why it is included but as you put it " because it was added by someone for a reason" confirms you are knowingly violating WP:VANDAL which is not acceptable. 81.37.42.201 (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

If you wish to keep the songs on the list then you must provide reliable sources according to wiki guidelines. I welcome the fact that you moved "Mary, Did You Know" to the American section. The same needs to be done to the "I Pray on Christmas" song if evidence can be found that the song is considered a Christmas Carol, as the writer and performer of the song, Harry Connick Jr., as many people already know is American and not English. 81.37.42.201 (talk) 12:03, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, I don't know if you're being funny, are blissfully ignorant or simply incapable with the language, but 1) I don't care if "I Pray on Christmas" is included or not, but while "pray" and "prey" are homonyms, they are not the same word, and you fully know that the word in question is Christmas. Perhaps opening the question to a larger audience would be appropriate. 2) when you repeatedly remove "Mary Don't You Know" and mis-characterize it as an Easter or resurrection song, it tells me that you shouldn't be working on the article at all. You are the one who says that you know for a fact, I'm pointing to the lyrics to state it is a nativity song. Period. Again, if you want to open the discussion to a larger audience, I'm OK with that. It is certainly a Christmas song. You have failed to give a definition to distinguish a carol from a song so we have that to debate, but it is No. 209 in the Baptist Hymnal 2008‎ and No. 192 in Worship and Rejoice so it7's more than just a song. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:53, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

So just to reiterate, you were wrong that "Mary Don't You Know" is a Christmas-themed song. I don't know if it is a carol or not, it is both Christmas and has appeared in at least two hymnals. The other song is clearly associated with Christmas, but I have no further knowledge of it. I suggest that you ask the individuals who added it (as you have been challenged, and at this point, WP:STATUSQUO would apply) or find a broader consensus. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

You can be belligerent and insulting all you want; it is usually the act of an individual mistaken and cannot accept both the truth and facts that makes use of such methods. You seem to be changing your position on "I Pray on Christmas" to a level that would confuse anyone. In your latest responses you first write at 02:53, 14 December 2020, that “I don't care if "I Pray on Christmas" is included or not!” then a few hours later you respond again at 07:19, 14 December 2020 with:

“The other song is clearly associated with Christmas, but I have no further knowledge of it. I suggest that you ask the individuals who added it (as you have been challenged, and at this point, WP:STATUSQUO would apply) or find a broader consensus.”,

which tells me you do care if "I Pray on Christmas" was not included. For your information WP:STATUSQUO does not apply here as it is clear you are status quo stonewalling and WP:STONEWALL would apply here. I would also add I have reviewed who did put "I Pray on Christmas" on the list. It was added by User:Bib many years ago (28 December 2006) before the format of the list as it exists today (See Here) and included Popular Christmas songs. He seems to be a Harry Connick Jr. fan and had added The Happy Elf Song and (It Must've Been Ol') Santa Claus both by Harry Connick, Jr. and Here Comes Santa Claus (Right Down Santa Claus Lane) at the same time of adding "I Pray on Christmas". He has not been active on Wikipedia since 2016 (See Here), therefore it is no use contacting him and may violate Wikipedia:Harassment to do so. It thereby reverts back to you since you have been doing the reverting and engaging into WP:EDITWAR. The question therefore is would you object to omitting "I Pray on Christmas” from the list considering 1) the information I have supplied about the user that added it to the list, 2) you wrote you “do not care if "I Pray on Christmas" is included or not” and 3) as you said to another editor on 21:07, 7 December 2017 “feel free to remove a carol if it's not originally from a particular region”. As I wrote previously If you wish to keep the "I Pray on Christmas" song (if evidence can be found that the song is considered a Christmas Carol), then it needs to be moved to the American section and not remain in the English section as the writer and performer of the song, Harry Connick Jr., as many people already know is American and not English and by keeping as it is and knowing this fully highlights that you are wilfully be disruptive.

Why is Mary, Did You Know? (and not as you wrote in your response "Mary Don't You Know") very personal to you. I do not understand why you keep reverting to it. I do not think the song should be included but when I wrote in my previous response that I welcome the fact that you moved "Mary, Did You Know" to the American section that this issue was resolved. I expect you will be challenged again on the issue, simply because there is, despite your best protests, no reference to the nativity or events surrounding the nativity in the song and anyone can see this in just a quick glance at the lyrics. The evidence from the lyrics, the word “baby boy”, that you think proves your argument, does not. As I pointed out previously, if the song contained the word newborn you might have a case, but as I wrote before, a baby is not a baby for a day and you need to look up the definition of the word to understand that and in fact the term may even be stretched beyond its conventional meaning. Someone in conversation to an 80-year-old woman may refer to her 60-year-old son as her baby boy, then again maybe the 80-year-old mother would refer to her son as her baby boy. Is any of this wrong? The woman did give birth to him (her baby) and he is a boy. So, in the end there is no evidence from the lyrics that confirm if it is from the nativity or that it refers to the nativity but rather a song on redemption, Period. As I wrote before this issue is for someone else to argue. It is out of the English section and in the American section where it should be if it is not challenged in the future and remains on the list.

Finally, your claim that I "shouldn't be working on the article at all" is outrageous. This article nor any other Wikipedia article is neither yours or my property and therefore neither of us has the right to tell the other they cannot work on the article. It is my belief that you are violating WP:POVRAILROAD to push your agenda and discourage my and other editors participation. Reviewing the history of this article through its talk page reveals discussions on the structure and what constitutes inclusion have been discussed many times and consensus of these issues were struck where it was eventually agreed after some tossing and pulling that songs that were popular with the word Christmas in the title or were religious did not necessarily constitute a Christmas carol and should be removed from the list (See here1 and here2 and here3 and here4) and here5 and here6 and here7 and here8 and here9 and here10. Separate articles with lists related to the other forms of Christmas music (such as Popular Christmas songs, Christmas Novelty Songs, and winter carols) could easily be created if they do not already exist. This article needs to stay on topic and not violate WP:OOS as the inclusion of anything with Christmas in the title or anything religious would result in the article becoming too bulky and useless. As the WP:OOS reads "Wikipedia is not the internet, it is an encyclopaedia". Encyclopaedias have sections so that people can easily seek the information they require and that they can digest that information. User:Walter Görlitz by all means open the conversation to a larger audience. I thought that is what we were doing as this conversation is in the public view on the talk page of the article and not in a private setting. If you wish to seek an arbitration or an editor with special responsibilities to discuss the behaviour as in WP:DR, then that is equally fine. it's up to you, it's your choice. I am fine with it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.42.201 (talk) 18:42, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

As for belligerence, etc, I was thinking the same for you.

My sole connection to the Buddy Greene and Mark Lowry song is that I am familiar with it. You have failed to explain how yo can so fully and deeply misunderstand the song, first insisting that it is an Easter song. To clarify, I don't keep reverting your removal, I have done so only in reaction to you incorrect removal of it. It is my belief that you're unable to admit that you were wrong about the nature of the song. In fact, let's start here: is the main theme of "Mary, Did You Know?" Christmas or nativity, or Easter and crucifixion?

I have no agenda here other than what I do across the project: prevent incorrect information from being added and preventing correct information from being removed.

Also, stop linking my name. It's not only unnecessary, it's rude, and sign your comments on the page. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:19, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Walter Görlitz I see that you want to continue status quo stonewalling and not answer the question I put to in relation to "I Pray on Christmas" in order to WP:POVRAILROAD your agenda and discourage and discredit other editors from collaborating in this article, and which violates WP:STONEWALL. So, I will ask you a second time again would you object to omitting "I Pray on Christmas” from the list considering 1) the information I have supplied about the user that added it to the list, 2) you wrote you “do not care if "I Pray on Christmas" is included or not” and 3) as you said to another editor on 21:07, 7 December 2017 “feel free to remove a carol if it's not originally from a particular region”. As I wrote previously If you wish to keep the "I Pray on Christmas" song (if evidence can be found that the song is considered a Christmas Carol), then it needs to be moved to the American section and not remain in the English section as the writer and performer of the song, Harry Connick Jr., as many people already know is American and not English and by keeping as it is and knowing this fully highlights that you are wilfully be disruptive.

You write "you have no agenda here than what I do across the project: prevent incorrect information from being added and preventing correct information from being removed", however, you engaged in WP:EDITWAR to retain false information, which is why I suspect you will not address the question of "I Pray on Christmas". In the first instance you reverted information related Star to the East which was listed in the English section when it was American and the information listed with it about George Cooper supported that. Not only that but you removed information in relation to the English carol that is often known by the same name but more commonly as Brightest and Best which was written in 1811 by Reginald Heber. Secondly you reverted to retain Mary, Did You Know? and "I Pray on Christmas” on the list when neither are related to the nativity, Christmastide, or twelvetide. Furthermore you kept them listed in the English section when you knowingly knew both were written and performed by American's as I had pointed them out to you. You engaged in WP:OR with "I know for a fact" for retaining "Mary, Did You Know" and WP:UNDUE for "I Pray on Christmas" by writing "I don't know about "I Pray on Christmas", but it's got the term in the title and I'm restoring it because it was added by someone for a reason". Even when it was pointed out to you that it was not listed in the correct section you still maintained it in the English section when I am sure many people know Harry Connick Jr. who wrote and performed "I Pray on Christmas" is American. Therefore you did knowingly add incorrect information to the article and as such violated WP:VANDAL.

You know other popular Christmas songs including those with Christmas in the title were removed from the article for eactly the same reason I have referred to (See for example the reference of Christmas Lights being removed here If everything religious or with the term Christmas in the title was added to the list it would cease to be practical. By your logic Christmas Popular songs such as All I Want for Christmas Is You, Rockin' Around the Christmas Tree, Last Christmas, All Alone on Christmas and Christmas Novelty Songs such asAll I Want for Christmas Is My Two Front Teeth, Nuttin' for Christmas, I Want a Hippopotamus for Christmas, I'm Walking Backwards for Christmas and many others would be added. This was initially the case but as I pointed out to you previously a consensus was reached over much debate with songs that were popular and contained the word Christmas in the title or were religious did not necessarily constitute a Christmas carol and should be removed from the list(See here1 and here2 and here3 and here4) and here5 and here6 and here7 and here8 and here9 and here10. However, you wish to go against the consensus of all these editors. That is what is referred to in wiki guidelines as disruptive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.42.201 (talk) 22:12, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

I'm stonewalling? No. I asked you a simple question. What is the primary theme of "Mary, Did You Know?" Is it Christmas or something else? And again, sign your comments. Long essays will be ignored. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:34, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

Buried in the essay above is your incorrect claim that "Mary, Did You Know?" is not "related to the nativity, Christmastide, or twelvetide". You're simply wrong and as I have shown you, the lyrics support that. You are using your own misinterpretation of the song's lyrics to support your claim. Unless you recognize that the song is a nativity carol, we have nothing further to discuss with you. I don't care about the other song, but since you are clearly wrong about "Mary, Did You Know?" I will assume you're wrong about it as well. Good bye. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:37, 14 December 2020 (UTC)

And I just want to be clear, it's because you refuse to listen to reason or change your incorrect opinion. You are attempting to wikiplawyer your WP:POV and will not list to simple facts. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:56, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

User:Walter Görlitz I see you are still trying to WP:GAME. I addressed your questions on "Mary, Did You Know?" multiple times, making it clear that while it was a Christian Song, it was not related to Christmas as there is no mention in the lyrics of the events of the nativity, (not to mention Christmastide and Twelvetide), however you disagree and have made spurious claims trying to link to the lyrics of the song.

Regarding the song “I Pray on Christmas", you write that you “don’t care about the other song” (as you address it) and because I will not bend to your incorrect belief you hold about "Mary, Did You Know?" you will assume I am wrong about it and you (which you write as we (plural) as opposed to I (Singular)) will have nothing further to discuss with me. From my understanding you are basically agreeing here that you are fine with having incorrect and dubious information within this article if it supports your agenda and discourages the collaboration of other editors. I believe User:Walter Görlitz this contravenes Wikipedia guidelines and policies on WP:VANDAL and WP:POVRAILROAD.

I note that you did move “I Pray on Christmas" out of the English section and into the American section and I welcome this action. It was long overdue. However, I am concerned at the gaming tactics (WP:GAME) that you are implying when you made the change. In the reason for the change you made on 23:40, 14 December 2020, where you write:

“per request from Spanish anon and correctly alphabetizing. Not sure if these are songs or carols, anon won't discuss that.”

In the first instance while moving “I Pray on Christmas” to the American section, you also make alterations to carols listed, such as "It Came Upon the Midnight Clear", and others and which you add “Not sure if these are songs or carols, anon won't discuss that”. If you are unsure if they are carols or songs, then why are you dictating to others what constitutes a carol and saying how I was “creating an artificial divide between carols and songs” here. Additionally, you know perfectly well that I did not object to "It Came Upon the Midnight Clear" or any of the other carols you highlighted in your change and it is therefore my belief you are attempting to game (WP:GAME) other editors in believing I am the person that wishes to retain “I Pray on Christmas” on the list whereby another editor will revert your change (not realizing the change would revert “I Pray on Christmas” incorrectly into the English section) and you will have support of retaining “I Pray on Christmas” in the English section rather than the American section where it should be (as Harry Connick Jr. who wrote and performed the song is American) if it is a Christmas carol which I believe it is not. Secondly, while you could have written per request from anon editor or something else, you write “per request from Spanish anon”, in my belief, to attempt to discredit (WP:GAME) my participation in the article as to what would a Spanish person know of English and/or American Christmas Carols? However, you again make a serious error in your judgement. Just because my IP is Spanish, does not mean I am Spanish. Have you ever heard of Free Movement? In Just the same way you claim to be a native speaker of Canadian-English, does not mean you cannot be of German citizenship/heritage or another nationality/heritage or that you may claim to be a Christian but then do very unchristian like acts. This is the message I have been trying to get to you throughout, but you have chosen to be truculent and irrational. As I had previously wrote just because “Mary, Did You Know?" and “I Pray on Christmas” are both Christian based does not mean both are Christmas Carols and Just because “I Pray on Christmas” has Christmas in the title does not mean it is a Christmas Carol as I have previously specified voluminously with the community of editors consensus of this article stipulations (See here1 and here2 and here3 and here4 and here5 and here6 and here7 and here8 and here9 and here10).

Nevertheless, I recognize that you have made a compromise by moving both songs to the American section (albeit under suspicious circumstances) and I have made a compromise in that both “Mary, Did You Know?" and “I Pray on Christmas” remain on the list (despite my belief both belong elsewhere, and I suspect others will raise this issue with you again in the future). I think this resolves the issue in a somewhat amicable situation and I wish you a Merry Christmas, well in your future endeavors and I hope you have taken some of what I have wrote on board and that you are not so impulsive and unreasonable in your future interactions with other editors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.37.42.201 (talk) 13:35, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

You see, you're blind to the facts and continue to deny that Mary, Did You Know? is a Christmas song. It is addressed to Mary during the nativity. Since you won't acknowledge that plain fact, for whatever reason, trying to discuss weightier issues with you will likely fail to make any progress. You have not, in fact, made any compromises. Cheers. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

User:Walter Görlitz, I have stated my case above and made plenty of compromises by relenting on your insistence Mary, Did You Know? and I Pray for Christmas should remain on the list despite the lyrics of 'Mary, Did You Know? not relating to any event of the nativity and I Pray for Christmas being a popular Christmas song similar to others which I highlighted were removed by other editors as they were not considered as Christmas Carols in accordance to the consensus reached by the community working on this article. if you wish to remain disgruntled, then that is your choice, I will leave it there and once again wish you luck in the future. Goodbye 81.37.42.201 (talk) 19:13, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Again, the fact that you do not accept (or possibly understand) that "Mary, Did You Know?" is actually a nativity song, is the root cause of the problem. The two links to Hymnary.org support the claim, as do these [`https://torreygazette.com/blog/2017/12/5/in-defense-of-mary-did-you-know] [1] [2] [3]. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:49, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Of course it has absolutely nothing to do with the nativity which was discussed at length above and anyone reading this who wishes to see that, can read it for themselves. Clearly we see things differently User:Walter Görlitz but we have made compromises and we move on. We don't hold grudges because that is not what Wikipedia is about (which brings together many people across the world). So for the third time good luck with your future 81.37.42.201 (talk) 22:05, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Of course it is a nativity song as anyone with eyes to see will understand. I'm done with your denial. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:18, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Multiple tunes for the same carol text

I was wondering if you could address an issue that pertains to the American carols with multiple tunes. In the American section, the entries for O Little Town and Away in a Manger have the different tunes mentioned under their entries. However, It Came Upon the Midnight Clear is another carol that has multiple tunes. I am aware that the Sears text and the Willis tune were created in America. However, congregations and choirs in the UK and the Commonwealth countries sing this text to a different tune, "Noel", adapted and arranged by Sullivan. Again this is a question of consistency. Why do we mention the UK "Forest Green" tune for O Little Town but not the UK tune for It Came Upon the Midnight Clear? Shouldn't we mention the preferred UK tunes for these texts in the section on UK-origin carols? Yip1982 (talk) 12:25, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely! "Do You Hear What I Hear?" is listed as an "English" carol, but it was written by an American, so I think the division by nation is odd and arbitrary. Your example is not ideal. There are at least three melodies for "O Little Town" that I know of, and other carols have can be sung multiple tunes. It might make more sense to list songs alphabetically by common name, and list language of origin with English or original language title where appropriate, then allow for multiple melodies to be listed where appropriate. All should be sourced of course. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:59, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

@Gerda Arendt: as this editor has some history on this article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:00, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I am here mostly for the German-language ones - many Swiss and Austrian - and believe that we should perhaps go by language rather than nationality. If a song is limited to one country it could be said in a footnote. Another possibility would be to make it one big list, sortable by language, sortable by primary country, etc. If more than one tune, please mention each. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 17:35, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Language is a good choice as well, but there are some carols that were originally in one language and are more popular in other languages. I was thinking something more like this:

Title	Lyricist	Language	Music	Notes	Ref
"Leise rieselt der Schnee"	Eduard Ebel	German	Leise rieselt der Schnee (Daniel Gottlob Türk or Eduard Ebel)	Title translation: "Softly Falls Every Snow Flake", c. 1895

With multiple entries, the sortable nature would be more clear. Walter Görlitz (talk) 19:56, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Carols and Christmas songs

Can I discuss the inclusion of the secular American Christmas songs in the list of American carols? Currently, it includes Jingle Bells, Christmas Song (Chestnuts), Silver Bells and Rudolph. I am aware that the opening paragraph mentions the Christmas songs that focus on secular themes. However, in previous discussions on this page, the previous contributors made a distinction between the different kinds of songs for Christmas. If these few secular songs are included, would we need to go ahead an include Frosty, White Christmas, Let It Snow, I Wish It Could Be Christmas Every Day and other secular songs of that kind? It's a question of consistency. Yip1982 (talk) 12:24, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

You can, but do you have a reliable source that clearly states they are not carols that are not WP:UNDUE with respect to others that state they are carols? There are many clearly secular carols ("Deck the Hall" being the most prominent, but "Here We Come A-wassailing" and others fall into this list) so you'll have to come up with a distinction other than your arbitrary sacred-secular divide. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:54, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, those songs belong to other Christmas Music categories i.e. Winter songs and/or Christmas Novelty Songs, Popular Christmas Songs, Christmas Hit Singles and should be removed from here and placed into their relevant wiki articles and categories, which was the consensus reached by the majority of editors as evidenced by the other comments in this talk page.

One such Reliable Source that demarcates the difference between a Christmas Carol from a Popular Christmas Song can be viewed here.

References

This article should remain close to how a Christmas Carol is defined in the Christmas Carol wiki article. 37.18.134.184 (talk) 16:42, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

It is quite ironic that the editor above had requested a Reliable Source from another editor (also above) to remove unsourced material. That's not how things work here on Wikipedia. The burden of proof is on the individual to provide Reliable Sources if they wish to add to the article, not the other way round. This request smacks of status quo stonewalling and WP:STONEWALL, not to forget WP:OWNERSHIP. Even more so, considering this same editor's use of WP:OR and WP:UNDUE against many other editors' (listed above) requested improvements to the article, just in order to repel any such changes to the article, and also his continuous reverts on any such changes to the article made by other editors. Specifically when considering that there was no such citations to any of the introduction of this article until I recently added the above citation (which I was able to do as this same editor is currently serving out a block for this same behaviour on other articles). This is also not how things work here on Wikipedia. Many editors collaborate and compromise with each other to reach a consensus on how the article should be structured. It is not for any one editor to take control of the content of the article to represent his/her WP:POV alone. Consistency is important, and this article and how it is defined should be consistent with the wiki articles of Christmas carol and carol. In regard to "Here We Come A-wassailing", this is not a Christmas carol but rather a New Year carol; also, it is not secular. It retains the lyrics "And God bless you and send you a Happy New Year, And God send you a Happy New Year."37.18.134.184 (talk) 13:13, 15 October 2021 (UTC)