Talk:List of Christmas carols/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Frosty The Snowman?

Just noticed you have rudolph and santa claus is coming to town.. Maybe consider adding frosty as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.118.187.188 (talk) 04:18, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

 Not done -- Today, none of these three are on the list. Consider some other WP pages listed below. -- AstroU (talk) 20:58, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Can I bring up the question on carols vs. Christmas songs again? In today's version of the article, there are some secular Christmas songs in the American section: Rudolph, Silver Bells, Christmas Song (Chestnuts) and Jingle Bells. I know that the opening paragraph mentions secular Christmas songs, but not all of them are included. To be consistent, should we remove the popular Christmas songs? Yip1982 (talk) 00:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

No need. If you want to split and create a list of Christmas songs, you would need to find reliable sources that list one song as a carol and not just a "song". In many cases, that line of demarcation is arbitrary. Without reliable sources, you're just applying WP:OR to the removal of some songs and not others. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:37, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Popular Christmas songs should most definitely be removed, which has been the clear consensus of the majority of editors of this article as evidenced by the other comments in this talk page.37.18.134.184 (talk) 14:04, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

See Here for one such reference that demarcates the difference between a Christmas Carol from a Popular Christmas Song.

References

37.18.134.184 (talk) 14:10, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Old discussion

Can someone with the appropriate permissions please change the spelling of the word 'epithany' in the 'Carol of the Bells' entry to the correct spelling 'epiphany'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hjarrot2 (talk • contribs) 23:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Neither word is there now. -- AstroU (talk) 21:01, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

---

The differences between Christmas songs and Christmas carols needs to be clearly defined somewhere (see Talk:Christmas carol). -R. fiend 03:52, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Is it relevant in Anglo-saxon world to make a difference between the canticles and the other songs ? In French wikipedia, the list shows three categories : the hymns, the songs with christian reference (often traditional or folk songs) and the non-religious songs. Gwalarn 19:14, 4 Jan 2005 (UTC) (a non-Anglo-Saxon contributor!)

What about Ave maria and Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring? Kingturtle 02:58, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Neither of those is specifically tied to Christmas.Rockhopper10r 05:25, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

But I only hear them at christmas time, and they are often included in christmas celebrations. Kingturtle 18:59, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

"Ave Maria" (mostly the Schubert or Bach/Gounod versions) is heard throughout the year in Roman Catholic and, sometimes, Anglican circles on Marian feasts, as well as weddings and funerals, as well as as a concert piece. Bach's "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" is often performed during Advent, but it is used as a hymn or anthem throughout the year. Neither piece makes any specific reference to Christmas. Rockhopper10r 21:39, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

I would say carols and songs are different, with some overlap, and should be treated as that....though they can be put into the same article 74.108.10.78 22:32, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The Cat and The Mouse Carol?

I know I have heard a Chirstmas song or carol involving a cat and a mouse. It has stuck with me ever since I heard it that one time on the radio. Recently I've been thinking about it and doing a little web searching. It seems there is a carol called "The Cat and The Mouse Carol", but I have not been able to confirm if it is the same one that I remember or anything else about it.

If anyone knows anything about this carol, it should probably be added to the list. Lilwik 03:38, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the one that goes "Said the cat to the mouse/In their dark little house/In a stable so long ago/"I am wondering why/That bright star in the sky/Is shining upon us down below"" or something like that? I have it in a book, but probably not with enough extra facts. Just the lyrics and tune, which don't really belong here. Skittle 13:19, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

That might be the carol which I have found referenced on the web as "The Cat and The Mouse Carol," but it is not the Christmas song that I remember. In that case there are two such songs and they both should be discovered somehow. Even though it was years ago when I heard the song, I know that it was rather slow and could not possibly have had the short lines and snappy rhymes that you quote.Lilwik 05:14, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

So we have established that :-) What else do you remember about your song? Any words/phrases? Sort of music? Skittle 23:19, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I believe it was a rather somber song. I can't remember any lyrics, unfortunately, but I have a feeling that it was in the same theme as The Little Match Girl, but it was a cat and a mouse in the cold, setting aside their classic differences on Christmas. Lilwik 08:55, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Might it be the one described here? I'll post what it says on your talk page, since I'm accessing it from Google's cache and it might not be there much longer, but it seems too long to post here. Skittle 17:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly what that link is referring to, but I finally managed to find the song on my own. This is the song I vaguely remembered: The Cat Carol. I guess The Cat and The Mouse Carol is something else. I will leave it to others to judge of it really qualifies as a Christmas carol, because despite its title is could be merely a Christmas song. It has a copyright that is barely 10 years old, 1993. Lilwik 00:11, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

That's the one I found at that link. I also posted the relevant bit onto your user page, which I meant to put on your talk page. 17:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The song is in reference to a carol written by British Singer and songwriter Ted Hutchinson . It was recently performed by David Archuleta and The Mormon Tabernacle Choir and was released on the Christmas CD following the concert ( Glad Christmas Tidings 2011). This is the Mormon Tabernacle Choir link to the song: The Carol is about a Cat and a Mouse in the Manger when Christ was born. The David Archuleta version is the only one I have been able to find. Nehimomma (talk) 07:10, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

References

Lyrics

Lyrics in the public domain must be moved to Wikisource s:Category:Christmas_carols --Altermike 15:47, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm quite surprised... "Little Christmas Tree" (Nat King Cole) is not in the Non-Religious Christmas Songs list... 124.106.148.10 15:27, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Performed by...

Do we really need the unending list of artists who performed these carols? I am considering removing the performed by sections. Kingturtle (talk) 16:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

 Done -- Not there now, AstroU (talk) 21:19, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

However, the second table column lists "Composer/Lyricist". -- AstroU (talk) 21:24, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

Religious vs. Non-Religious

Some of the carols listed as religious are actually non-religious. For example, Twelve Days of Christmas and Deck the Halls may be very traditional, but aren't religious. I suggest moving them to the non-religious category, or creating a new category for them.

I don't know about Deck the Halls, but I do know that Twelve Days of Christmas is very religious as each day corresponds to a different religious element. [1] [2] --74.137.225.227 (talk) 19:37, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Snopes.com [3] has a very good article about the alleged hidden meanings of the lyrics of "The Twelve Days of Christmas". It is not a religious song. Rockhopper10r (talk) 05:12, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

"I checked Snopes, my research is done." A Snopes "researcher's" gleanings from blogs he read after an exhaustive Google search isn't my idea of a reliable source. Philip72 (talk) 05:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

Who on earth wrote "Deck the Halls (a pagan Yuletide drinking song)" in the article? What utter nonsense. Deck the Halls English lyrics were written by the Scottish musician Thomas Oliphant in 1862, and in Welsh by John Jones the same year. The melody is older, first found in a musical manuscript by Welsh harpist John Parry dating back to the 1700s. So I'm deleting that nonsense, and if someone puts it back they better have a reliable cite that contradicts everything else . Philip72 (talk) 05:04, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

References

Split proposal

This article is about Christmas carols, not about Non-Religious Christmas Songs. The latter should be put into List of non-religious Christmas songs. Kingturtle (talk) 03:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Non-Christmas Christmas songs

Several of the songs here, though often performed at concerts around Christmas time, are not "Christmas" songs but for that association. "Jingle Bells" and "Let It Snow! Let It Snow! Let It Snow!" come immediately to my mind, but I'm sure there are others. Unless there is some discussion to the contrary and sound reasoning, I'm going to yank them. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

These songs should be moved to another article. How about List of non-Christmas winter songs or something like that? Kingturtle (talk) 15:59, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

As the article is named List of Christmas carols, the inclusion of any songs at all, religious or secular, which are not actually Christmas carols per se should be removed to another [new] article, for instance List of Christmas songs, which should have a section Chrismas Carols which links to List of Christmas carols. Clearly such compositions as Jingle-bells, together with the ubiquitous We wish you a Merry Christmas (although often sung by visiting 'carol-singers' (albeit only a quick round of the chorus followed by a hand outstretched in expectation of a donation for the half-hearted effort before moving on to the next house to repeat the process, and so on) are not, strictly speaking, carols. And We Three Kings is an Epiphany carol, and should also be excluded, as should Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel which is an Advent hymn. --JohnArmagh (talk) 20:06, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, I have no problem removing non-Christmas songs, but they should be placed in another article. The non Christmas seasonal songs have a great deal of value to our culture. Kingturtle (talk) 16:24, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead and create it. They do not belong here. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:01, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I already supported your claim that they don't belong here. :) I am trying to come up with a title for the non-Christmas song article, and I am asking for a little help brainstorming. List of non-Christmas winter songs? List of non-Christmas Christmas songs? Kingturtle (talk) 17:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the bigger problems will be a) defining the topic in an encyclopedic manner and b) finding sources that explicitly state that, say, "Let it snow,..." is not a Christmas song but is often played at Christmas time (not winter, Chistmas time) and c) weeding out the provincialism (I doubt "Sleigh Ride", "Frosty..." and such get much play in Australia's Spring (early December). As such, I think brainstorming for a title is premature. The title should be based on the content in this case, so we need to solidify the content first. I'd suggest starting a User Page/Sandbox to build this in, THEN work on the title. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:25, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, what source are you using that states "Let it snow,..." is not a Christmas song? Kingturtle (talk) 00:39, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

You have that backwards. I am disputing that it is a Christmas song. If you wish to re-add it to the article, feel free to -- provided you can cite a reliable source stating that it is a Christmas carol. If I were adding it to an article titled "Songs that are not Christmas songs", I would need a source. - SummerPhD (talk) 13:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

But there aren't any sources on List of Christmas carols stating that any of the songs listed are Christmas carols. Kingturtle (talk) 14:56, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Thus you may feel free to remove any you wish to dispute. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

List of secular songs associated with Christmas --JohnArmagh (talk) 16:13, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

I like it. Kingturtle (talk) 16:41, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Good luck finding sources! Sounds like a nice project for me to stay out of... - SummerPhD (talk) 19:50, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

You know, I don't like the WP:OR jab when none of the entries that you have on List of Christmas carols have any citations from third parties saying they are indeed Christmas carols. Good luck finding sources :) Kingturtle (talk) 19:57, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Three quick point:

1) I don't have any entries on this article or anywhere else. In fact, on this article all I've done is remove entries.

2) There is, IMO, some justification for calling a song that includes the word "Christmas" and/or lyrics about the events believed to have occurred a "Christmas song". Saying "Sleigh Ride" is a Christmas song, though, seems to amount to something along the lines of "Gee, it's mostly played in December...".

3) Please don't interpret my comments as "jabs" at you. I have no problem with you (that I am aware of...). I do, however, think you're heading down a deadend alley. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:24, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

And, again, feel free to remove any songs you wish to dispute. - SummerPhD (talk) 20:26, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, it felt like a jab. But thank you for your explanation. I understand.

Now about this article, I think List of non-religious Christmas songs and List of secular songs associated with Christmas should be their own articles. Non-religious Christmas songs aren't carols and shouldn't be on this article. I am not so worried about finding sources.

Also, I think it is ok to say who first recorded it, but I think the "Also recorded by" part needs to be removed or chopped generously. Kingturtle (talk) 20:37, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Restructuring

Since the removal of the non-carols and Non-Christmas Christmas songs (should I create a redirect? ;) ), I've started a restructure. With all of the various Language X sections, the original portion seemed to be kind of hanging. So, I've started sorting them by language.

A number of the English songs (such as "Bring a Torch...") were listed in that section, but as "Language X traditional". Clearly, "Bring a Torch..." is an English translation, using the same/similar music as the original. I've made some of the changes to that effect.

Bolding the songs was unique to the English section. IMO, it also made it hard to read. I've removed the bolding.

There are still a number of questionable inclusions. For example, does Trans Siberian Orchestra's "Christmas Canon" have lyrics? If so, are they religious? If not (no lyrics or secular lyrics), is this a carol?

Comments are welcome. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:13, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Nice work. I've made a few format changes too. Kingturtle (talk) 17:35, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, there's a lot more to do. I'll peck at it every now and again. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:10, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

New format idea

Turning it into a chart would make the list more streamlined and easier to read. How about this format?

Carol	Composer	Lyricist	Year published	Notes
"Angels from the Realms of Glory"		James Montgomery	1816
"Angels We Have Heard on High"	traditional hymn "Gloria"	English translation by James Chadwick	1862	based on French traditional carol "Les Anges dans nos Campagnes"

Ideas? Comments? Kingturtle (talk) 18:57, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea of plapping it all in a chart, but I have some reservations. There's a whole lot of info that will end up jammed in the "Notes" section: original title in another language, translator, notable recordings, etc. The Composer/Lyricist dicotomy leaves solo compositions as either listing one name in both or, again, jamming it into the "Notes" section. Part of the problem, IMO, is that the legacy of this article is such that whomever wandered along added whatever they felt like in whatever format they happened to use. We have nothing established to determine what songs to include and what info to include about them. If Michael W. Smith puts out an album's worth of new Christmas songs, do we inevitably add them? Why or why not?

Notability criteria do not specifically apply to individual entries on a list like this, so we get to set our own. Basically, I would propose keeping the info in this article to a minimum: Title (with original title in another language, if applicable); Written by; Date and maybe notable recording. What of the other information? Well, that would wrap in with my other suggestion (and this is pretty major...) let's limit the article specifically to songs with Wikipedia articles. That would knock the list down to about 90 or so (based on current links, some links are probably missing, but some songs don't belong). The rest? Well, we don't have any evidence that they exist, are Christmas carols and are notable in any way. Some schmoe at Podunk First Presbyterian writes a song one year, is that worth including? - SummerPhD (talk) 19:52, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, the Composer/Lyricist part could just be one column. And the notes don't have to be extensive. This article is just a list and more information can be put on the actual article of the carol. Kingturtle (talk) 23:58, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

How about like this? Kingturtle (talk) 20:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Carol	Composer /Lyricist	Year published	Notes
"Angels from the Realms of Glory"	Lyrics by James Montgomery	1816
"Angels We Have Heard on High"	traditional hymn "Gloria"; English translation by James Chadwick	1862	based on French traditional carol "Les Anges dans nos Campagnes"

Works for me! I'm going to put up an "inuse" tag for a minute right now and see how many additional songs have articles that aren't currently linked. Any thoughts on an inclusion standard for this article? - SummerPhD (talk) 17:35, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Wow, a sea of red. I also made some formatting corrections and fixed some clumsy English. Now let's see what we have. - SummerPhD (talk) 18:14, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking good. When you're done, I'll create some more charts. Kingturtle (talk) 18:34, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

OK, so much for that. A lot of work for not much gain... We went from 86 linked songs to 98 linked songs. Any way, any thoughts on chopping this bad boy down to size? - SummerPhD (talk) 19:06, 16 December 2008 (UTC)

Someone recently posted that this formatting "looked ridiculous" and was entirely anglo-centric. I just placed some French titles on there, and I have to agree that I think there may be a better solution. What if we made a sortable table (as suggested by above mentioned poster) with (1) English title (or translated into English - this is the English wikipedia obviously) (2) original language title (when applicable), then the remaining columns of composer, date, and notes? Then ppl could sort it as they saw fit (by title, origin, date, etc.) and we'd have one substantial table. Thoughts? Portia1780 (talk) 23:23, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

 Done So now the entire article in not Anglo-centric, since the article is broken down by country/language. Works great for me. -- AstroU (talk) 19:25, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Notability criteria

As there has been no discussion on this issue, I'm boldly assuming that my proposal is acceptable. Barring further discussion, songs are not notable enough for inclusion in this article unless they have individual articles. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:56, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Notability on lists such as this is always difficult to gauge. I don't think every notable carol deserves its own article, especially non-English language carols, but I do think some of those less notable carols deserve a place on this list of Christmas carols. Maybe the notability criteria should be based on something else, such as it has been performed live or on a recording by a notable chorus or chamber choir. Kingturtle (talk) 22:30, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, it's tough to guage. In general, the problems seem to come when the criteria are vague.

For openers, I think we can agree that any carol with an article is notable enough for this list.

From your suggestions, my qualms would be 1) defining a notable choir (unless we fall back on choirs with articles) and 2) the possibility of a choir performing as a one-off an otherwise non-notable carol or recording an entire album of carols that includes some otherwise ignored ones. While I don't have a specific example in mind, I'm thinking along the lines of a Michael W. Smith album. Every now and again, a notable choir will record and or perform with a pop artist. Suppose Smith records an album of all-new Christmas songs. Given who he is, they're likely to be religious. If an otherwise notable choir joins in on the album or for a show or two, does that make even the most forgettable, non-notable song on that album a "notable Christmas carol" to be included with "Silent Night" and "Adeste Fideles"? Seems a rather low bar, to me. The WP:GNC seem broad enough to cover what I would expect here, especially if we follow the wiggle room provided by WP:MUSIC#SONGS: "Songs that have been ranked on national or significant music charts, that have won significant awards or honors or that have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups are probably notable." Modify that to limit it to carols and I think we have a winner, noting, of course, that we don't need sufficient material about the song to actually write a full article about it. Thoughts? - SummerPhD (talk) 16:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Actually, another point. What makes a song a carol? Is every religious Christmas song a carol? Does Christmas Day (Michael W. Smith song) make the grade? - SummerPhD (talk) 16:50, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

A carol has Jesus' birth as part of the subject matter, no? Kingturtle (talk) 19:54, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm betting I can find a song from South Park that fits that definition... I think we need something a bit more concrete. - SummerPhD (talk) 21:33, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

This is a list of Christmas Carols; not a list of notable Christmas Carols. All Carols should be included. We should take a loose definition of carol as being any song that glorifies Jesus Christ's birth. Any song that glorifies Jesus Christ's birth should be counted as worthy of inclusion in this list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.21.191 (talk) 00:27, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Imagine the article List of people from New York City... Please see Wikipedia:List#List_content. - SummerPhD (talk) 14:42, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Extra carols to add to the list

• Adeste Fidelis
• Angel Gabriel, The
• As With Gladness, Men of Old
• Break Forth, O Beauteous Heavenly Light
• Brightest and Best of the Sons of the Morning
• Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus
• Coventry Carol
• First Noel, The
• Gloucestershire Wassail
• How Brightly Shines the Morning Star
• I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In
• It Came Upon the Midnight Clear
• Joseph Dearest, Joseph Mine
• My Dancing Day
• O Come All Ye Faithful (English)
• O Come, O Come Emmanuel
• O Little Town of Bethlehem
• On This Day Earth Shall Ring
• Prepare the Way, O Zion
• Quem Pastores
• Rudolf The Red Nosed Raindeer —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hahajoanne1 (talk • contribs) 03:03, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
• Sleepers, Wake!
• Song of the Crib
• Sussex Carol
• Tomorrow Shall Be My Dancing Day
• Truth From Above, The
• Watchman, Tell Us of the Night
• We Three Kings of Orient
• We Wish You a Merry Christmas
• Winter's Snow

The music is here: [4]http://www.christmas-carol-music.org/Index_of_Titles.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.21.191 (talk) 00:22, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Here's the problem:Adeste Fidelis, The Angel Gabriel, As With Gladness, Men of Old, Break Forth, O Beauteous Heavenly Light, Brightest and Best of the Sons of the Morning, Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus, Coventry Carol, The First Noel, Gloucestershire Wassail, How Brightly Shines the Morning Star, I Saw Three Ships Come Sailing In, It Came Upon the Midnight Clear, Joseph Dearest, Joseph Mine, My Dancing Day, O Come All Ye Faithful, O Come, O Come Emmanuel, O Little Town of Bethlehem, On This Day Earth Shall Ring, Prepare the Way, O Zion, Quem Pastores, Sleepers, Wake!, Song of the Crib, Sussex Carol, Tomorrow Shall Be My Dancing Day, The Truth From Above, Watchman, Tell Us of the Night, We Three Kings of Orient, We Wish You a Merry Christmas, Winter's Snow.

The redlinks have no evendence of notability. The blue links are all already there, except for Sleepers, Wake!, which is actually a link to an unrelated book. This leads us back to the question above. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:40, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

I_Saw_3_Ships has been recorded by some notable people.

I have to say the current structure looks ridiculous as the only substantial list is the "English" carols one, even though many of them are actually translations from other languages where they are not listed (because they already appear on the "English" list?). If you split per language, you'd expect it to be by language of origin, otherwise it results in this current misleading Anglo-centric selection bias. One possible solution is to allow duplicate entries (i.e., include the translated English carols to their language of origin list). Another would be to reformat as a single table with sortable fields including the language of origin.--70.80.234.196 (talk) 04:05, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Surely, you're joking, SummerPhD. Just because something is present in or missing from Wikipedia has no bearing on its notability or lack thereof. Having something show up with a red link is merely evidence that you were too lazy to search diligently, that you were raised in a culturally deprived environment, or that the songs may be known by a variety of titles. I took the liberty of adding the word "Are" to "We Three Kings of Orient", and, presto, a match appeared. How many more are there like that? —Quicksilver^{T @} 21:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

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One of my favorite Christmas carol numbers is: “This Little Babe” (Benjamin Britten (A Ceremony of Carols)) Date=February 20, 2012 (1:36min) Maîtrise de Radio France. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_Tux6tixN0

AstroU (talk) 03:57, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

---

Our Relief Society put together 24 carol/story/scripture (sets) to be used like an Advent calendar: (Half are Primary songs, such as 1. “Nativity Song” and 2. “Once Within a Lowly Stable”) 3. O Little Town of Bethlehem; 5. It Came Upon The Midnight Clear; 7. O Come All Ye Faithful; 9. Joy to the World; 11. O Holy Night; 13. Away in a Manger; 14. The First Noel; 15. Angels We Have Heard On High; 17. Hark! The Herald Angels Sing; 21. With Wondering Awe; 23. What Child Is This? ... And for Christmas Eve, 24. “Silent Night”.

They are all on the list herein, except “With Wondering Awe” with text and music, Anon.

-- AstroU (talk) 20:13, 25 December 2014 (UTC)

Added: "With Wondering Awe", the Wisemen saw... AstroU (talk) 21:31, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

---

Marys boy child

Mary's Boy Child and Mary's Little Boy Child both linked to the same article which was titled Mary's Boy Child, so I removed the line for Mary's Little Boy Child and added it in brackets in the line below. Cheers, JenLouise (talk) 09:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Also, the note about editing protection is from the end of 2008 and says it is only for 2 weeks - is it time to remove it? JenLouise (talk) 09:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Order of list

It seems unclear what the rationale is for organising the list and it needs to be stated in the intro. It looks at first that listing is according to original language of the words, but doesn't seem to follow that clearly. Many foreign language carols seem to be listed under English. Can we make it clearer?--Mervyn (talk) 13:15, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

 Done -- Now, broken down by language. -- AstroU (talk) 21:05, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

@AstroU: Not to start another discussion, but since it is listed by language, why is American listed? It's not an language. American English is another form of English, but not American. Not sure why it's listed if it's listed by language. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 03:40, 17 September 2020 (UTC)

Songs For Inclusion

I noticed song songs like "Where Are You, Christmas?" by Faith Hill of the "How the Grinch Stole Christmas" soundtrack, "Wonderful Christmas Time" by Paul McCartney and Wings, "Thank God It's Christmas" by Queen, and others are not the list. Would they be on another list. If so, where is that list? Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 19:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

For those that fit the criteria, there's List of Christmas hit singles. Also consider Category:Christmas songs. - SummerPhD (talk) 19:40, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Mr. C.C.^{Hey yo!}_{I didn't do it!} 01:46, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Question about "Winter Wonderland"

Is "Winter Wonderland" really a Christmas carol? The article on Winter Wonderland describes the song as a "Christmas time pop classic" rather than a carol, and I do wonder whether it should be in this list. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 23:11, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

It'd be pretty damned hard to argue that this is a Christmas carol. The song is neither about Christmas nor a carol. I'm removing it. - SummerPhD (talk) 00:32, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Christmas Lights removed

I removed Christmas Lights by Coldplay, because there's really no sense in which that's a Christmas carol rather than just a Christmas pop song. It belongs elsewhere. 86.183.77.237 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:14, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Auld Lang Syne

I have deleted the note stating that "Auld Lang Syne" "famously" appears at the end of It's A Wonderful Life. The idea that this is significant, let alone the most (or even a) notable feature of such a universally renowned song is misguided and parochial, betraying the writer's ignorance more than his knowledge.77.100.218.86 (talk) 13:08, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

True enough. More to the point, IMO, it isn't a Christmas carol. I've removed it. - SummerPhD (talk) 16:17, 20 December 2012 (UTC)

No article about the Rocking Carol?

This is a much desired suggestion by someone who's not as Wikipedia savvy as I'd like to be. I wasn't sure where exactly to offer this suggestion but this seemed like the most logical place I could find. Basically, if you go to the "English" section of songs on the article, then scroll down to "Rocking Carol", you will find there is no Wikipedia article about this song, only a link to another website that talks about it. I searched and searched and searched, and there is absolutely nothing here on Wikipedia, not even a stub. This is a very famous, well known song, especially compared to some of the other lesser-known ones that have their own articles. The only place on Wikipedia I could even find mention of it is here, on this article, and again, all there is is a link to another site. Take a listen to refresh your memory about this song in case you're not familiar: "Rocking Carol" Somebody please make a stub or something about this beautiful, popular song. I'd do it myself if I felt like spending the energy on learning how to do it. Maybe I will. — Preceding unsigned comment added by YouarelovedSOmuch (talk • contribs) 19:33, 12 December 2013 (UTC)

Inclusion

Well, all these years later, here we are again. Yes, we have songs that are not carols on the list. A carol is "a religious folk song or popular hymn".[5] "Deck the Halls" (even if marginally about Christmas...sort of) is in no sense religious or a hymn. "Auld Lang Syne" is neither a carol nor about Christmas (someone was editing while drink?).

Along with that, we have numerous songs that are not notable. While we tried to hash this out years ago, we now have Template:Uw-badlistentry, which reads "Hello. Your recent edit appears to have added the name of a non-notable entity to a list that normally includes only notable entries. In general, a person or organization added to a list should have a pre-existing article before being added to most lists. If you wish to create such an article, please first confirm that the subject qualifies for a separate, stand-alone article according to Wikipedia's notability guideline. Thank you."

Granted, there is not a policy that directly excludes non-notable entries. However, we need something clear here. If my niece writes a Christmas song mentioning "Jesus" we can certainly argue it's a Christmas carol. It does not, however, belong on this list. Furthermore, without substantial coverage in reliable sources, we really have no way to determine that the song is as carol (rather than another "Sleigh Ride", "Deck the Halls", etc.

Comments? - SummerPhD (talk) 16:19, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the inclusion criteria could be clearer, because it doesn't state that the carol has to be typically religious. Wikipedia's own definition of a Christmas carol is "song or hymn whose lyrics are on the theme of Christmas or the winter season in general, and which is traditionally sung in the period immediately surrounding the holiday." (Then Norwegian entyr Musevisa is not at all religious and should be removed by your definition). Iselilja (talk) 16:40, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Agree, it needs clearer intro about defining a carol - e.g inclusion in a notable anthology of carols. Also need to refine criteria about under which language a carol is listed. --Mervyn (talk) 10:54, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Happy New Year 2015 ... How does the inclusion criteria look now? I think the lede here is good (1) what is included, (2) what is not, (3) definition, and (4) link to Christmas_Carol to amplify the definition, as a subset of Christmas music. As it now stands, "A Christmas carol is a carol whose lyrics center on the theme of Christmas or that has become associated with the Christmas season even though its lyrics may not specifically refer to Christmas. Both types of Christmas carols are included in this list. Traditional Christmas carols are deeply religious, mainly focusing on the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus. ..." and from the Christmas carol page, "A Christmas carol (also called a noël) is a carol (song or hymn) whose lyrics are on the theme of Christmas, and which is traditionally sung on Christmas itself or during the surrounding holiday season. Christmas carols may be regarded as a subset of the broader category of Christmas music." There is deep meaning in the carols, where wise men still seek him. -- AstroU (talk) 20:44, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Inclusion of some Irish and Catalan Carols

I have included five Irish traditional carols and one Catalan carol. When I originally added them, they were removed by ClueBot NG citing possible vandalism. I reported this false positive removal and added them again. Three of the Irish carols are in the English language and two are in the Irish language. The English language carols include:

"Christmas Day Is Come" (also known as "The Irish Carol") an 18th century Irish traditional carol written by Fr. William Devereaux and part of the "Kilmore Carols" You can listen to traditional hereor modern here

"Curoo Curoo ("The Carol of the Birds") is another 18th century carol. The composer is unknown. You can listen to traditional here or modern here

"The Darkest Midnight in December" an 18th century Irish traditional carol written by Fr. William Devereaux and part of the "Kilmore Carols" You can listen to traditional here or modern version here

The Irish language carols include:

"An Ciarrí Carúl Nollaig" ("The Kerry Christmas Carol") You can listen to here in English (don't know when it was translated)

"Oíche Nollag" (Christmas Eve") You can listen to traditional version here

The Catalan Carol includes:

"El cant dels ocells" (lit. "Song of the Birds") which was written by Pablo Casals. The song is also referenced as “Carol of the Birds” (Different from the Irish Traditional song Curoo Curoo (Carol of the Birds). You can listen to traditional version here or modern version here — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:25C0:380:9591:E645:2B49:8C7B (talk) 20:29, 22 November 2015 (UTC)

Interesting concept : Much work needed

I like the idea of this list, as the Christmas carol occupies a significant place in the development of western music, and I think a good start has been made. That said, the article needs a considerable amount of work.

• The first thing which jumps out is the sentence near the beginning, "The list is organised [sic] according to the original language of the carol."

Indeed? Yet in the "English" section I find Bring a Torch, Jeanette, Isabella, the original language of which was almost certainly French; Deck the Hall, originally in Welsh; Glory to God (Dutch); "Good King Wenceslas (probably Moravian or Slovakian); Huron Carol (oirginally in Huron); In Dulci Jubilo (Latin); O Christmas Tree (German); Silent Night (German); etc.

If the intent is really to organize the list by original language, all of these (and a few others) need to be moved from the "English" section to more appropriate places. There are similar problems in some of the other language charts.

Speaking from 16 years experience with maintaining a database of more than 2000 ethnic and popular Christmas songs, I would suggest that charting by language isn't, perhaps, the most useful way to organize this list. A better approach might be to list all songs alphabetically, by most popular title, then give the likely ethnic origin in the next column. (Ethnic origin tends to be easier to uncover than original language.)

I would suggest also that a column be added to provide alternate titles by which the tune is known in other countries, as many of these tunes are quite commonly known by two or three different names. This could be a single chart, or it could be separated into sections by letters of the alphabet.

• Secondly, if the list is intended to only include Christmas carols, "carol" has a very specific definition in music: "a song, characteristically of religious joy, associated with a given season, especially Christmas; in which uniform stanzas, or verses (V), alternate with a refrain, or burden (B), in the pattern B, V1, B, V2 . . . B."

A goodly number of entries in this list are not "carols" by the musical definition (e.g. Away in a Manger; Silent Night; O Tannenbaum; Angels From the Realms of Glory; In Dulci Jubilo, and many others).

These are, of course, very popular Christmas songs, and have been for a long time, so you may want to rethink calling this a list of carols, and instead call it a list of Christmas Songs.

Perhaps "List of Traditional Christmas Songs" -- I 'll leave it to others to quibble over the meaning of "traditional". :)

• Thirdly, if you limit the list to strictly Christmas songs, a lot of other items have to go. We Three Kings is an epiphany song; Good King Wenceslas celebrates St. Stephen's Day, not Christmas; Deck the Hall is a pagan (yuletide) drinking song; Kyrie Eleison has nothing to do with Christmas' it's the first movement of the Catholic Mass; O Come Emmanuel is an Advent chant... and so on.

Many of these tunes have nonetheless become so associated in the modern mind with the Christmas season that it would probably be counterproductive to remove them. Including them with an appropriate comment -- as has been partly done -- is, I think, a good idea.

This does, however, raise the question of whether certain other songs should be included. For example, as of right now, perhaps the most iconic "Christmas" song of all time is Jingle Bells -- which says nothing at all about Christmas, and was originally composed for Thanksgiving. Yet so iconic has this song become, that a musician, composer, playwright, or film-maker who wants to suggest "Christmas" in the minds of his/her audience -- in any context, and at any time of year -- has only to quote the first six notes of Jingle Bells to produce the desired effect in most listeners.

One possible argument for excluding tunes like Jingle Bells would be to specify that the list only include religiously themed songs -- but in that case Deck the Hall and the Ukranian Bell Carol would also have to go, for the sake of consistency.

And that, really, is the bottom line: consistency.

Right now the list seriously lacks consistency. It would be a better, more useful article, were it more consistent.

Oh, and BTW, just or the record, Guadete -- which is a Christmas carol by practically any definition -- wasn't "popularized by Steeleye Span in 1973". Re - popularized, perhaps, but it was popularized about 400 years before most of the members of Steeleye Span were born.  ;)

74.95.43.249 (talk) 21:04, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I would add that "year published" should probably be changed to "year written" or "year composed". Prior to the 17th century most of these tunes can't be said to have been "published" at all. A lot of them were passed on aurally, and only published in the 19th century, hundreds of years after they were composed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.249 (talk) 01:00, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

---

As a specific example of trouble, I note: "Away in a Manger" is attributed to Martin Luther in English, but no counterpart is attributed to him in Latin or German. Huh????? By way of contrast, "Angels We Have Heard on High" is cited as being a translation of a French carol, and "Oh Come All Ye Faithful" as a translation of "Adestes Fideles". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.230.119 (talk) 08:15, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

The comment regarding "Away In A Manger" is moot, seeing as how no scholar has ever been able to actually connect Luther to the song or lyrics. That his name is associated with the song at all is most likely due to a deliberate pious misattribution by Murray. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 22:47, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

clean up on many sections

There needs to be a clean up on many of the sections. For example

• Translation

There is no translation on many of the regions carols, such as with the Spanish, Dutch, Danish, Romanian and many others. It is, after all, a English wiki article

• Categorising

Is the list being categorised by the language the carol was wrote and sung in or is the list categorised by the origin. I know it was previously categorised by the language of the song but now it seems to state it is categorised by the origin. Regardless who made the change, they didn't follow up and re-categorise carols that were from one region but sung in a different language. For example Irish traditional songs that were sung in English remained in the English section and were not moved to the Irish section with the traditional carols that were sung in Irish. There is also some French Carols there too.

• Listings of Popular Songs as Carols

Some songs have been added to sections that are clearly not carols but popular Songs, such as in the Spanish section, someone had added Feliz Navidad a song released by Puerto Rican singer and songwriter José Feliciano. They might as well added Last Christmas by Wham! in the English section.

• Duplication of Songs

Some carols have been duplicated across different sections, such as Silent Night. If the list is been categorised by origin, then surely Silent Night should be categorised in and only in German. I understand that there are other languages for this carol but it originates from Germany and therefore should be consistent with the method of how the list is formed. the same could be said for many others. Maybe in the notes section it can highlight those other languages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.202.203 (talk) 20:46, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

No translation is needed if the carol is not sufficiently well-known in English and no common translation exists.

Technically, "Silent Night" is Austrian and not German and the list is "organized according to the presumed original ethnicity of the carol", so feel free to remove a carol if it's not originally from a particular region. But recognize also, that this article uses either American or Oxford spelling. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:07, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm sure a common translation does exist. We live in the global internet age of free movement. Besides, how is the list ever going to be accurate if we cannot tell if someone has duplicated a popular Christmas carol but with the translation from their own language, nonetheless Wiki recommend such translations WP:COFAQ#TRANS. I also understand that this article is written in British (and not Oxford) or American English, but I also understand wiki strives to be inclusive in its policies of the variants of English WP:COFAQ#ENGLISH — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.202.203 (talk) 17:25, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Twelve Days of Christmas (also known as Twelvetide) and/or Christmastide

The second paragraph of the current article states:

Many traditional Christmas carols are deeply religious, mainly focusing on the Christian celebration of the birth of Jesus. Many songs, both religious and secular, now regarded as Christmas songs have become associated with the Christmas season even though the lyrics may not specifically refer to Christmas – for example, We Three Kings (an Epiphany song), Good King Wenceslas (a carol for St. Stephen's Day), Deck the Halls (a pagan Yuletide drinking song) and O Come, O Come, Emmanuel (an Advent chant). Other Christmas songs focus on more secular Christmas themes, such as winter scenes, family gatherings, and Santa Claus (Jingle Bells, O Christmas Tree, Home for the Holidays, Jolly Old St. Nicholas, etc.).

I think the confusion around Christmas Carols and the legitimacy of some of the Carols mentioned above might be circumvented if it is added that there are Twelve Days of Christmas (also known as Twelvetide) and similar to Christmastide and from the 25th December to the 5th/6th of January they are celebrated, hence the reason why many Christmas Carols can be related to St Stephen's Day (26th December), St John's Day (27th December), Feast of Holy Innocents (28th December), St Sylvester's Day (31st December), and right up to the Epiphany. I can put this in if no one has a problem with it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.1.202.203 (talk) 19:44, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Please use the correct date formatting. None has been defined, but the majority of references use the "dmy" format, so write 25 December, etc. Also, no slash for Epiphany: 25 December to 5 January (or 6 January depending on the tradition). Otherwise, this looks OK. Walter Görlitz (talk) 07:16, 13 December 2017 (UTC)