Talk:List of Christmas carols/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Ethnicity/Culture versus Language

I'd like to suggest an organization by ethnic or cultural origin/prevalence, rather than by language. There are several reasons for taking this approach:

• This is the way carols are usually categorized in songbooks. Eg., "Spanish", "Catalan", and "Mexican" carols would be categorized separately, rather than all being lumped together under "Spanish", as these are distinctly different cultural/ethnic groups. Likewise for "English", "American", "and "Canadian" carols.

• A vast number of Christmas carols/songs have been translated into multiple languages. Some translations have existed for so long that the original language of the song has been obscured. Eg., "The First Noel" is often assumed to be a French carol; in fact, it is English -- "The First Nowell"; or "O Come, O Come Emmanuel" which is listed under "English", but it's origin is Latin, and it's been translated into virtually every modern language.

• Categorizing by language can make it difficult to locate carols which may be associated with a particular region or people, but not necessarily with a specific language. For example, there are Israeli carols, but they did not originate in Hebrew or Arabic.

• Categorizing by ethnicity or culture gives more useful historical information that categorizing by language. For example, many Bohemian and Moravian carols are now rendered in the Czech language, but those are not their language of origin, and these are distinct cultural groups, or were when the music originated.

• There is a lack of consistency in the current organization. For example, "Irish" and "English" are listed separately, even though most of the Irish listings have been commonly rendered in English for a century or longer. On the other hand, there is no listing for "American", and American carols (eg., "Away In A Manger") are lumped under other categories. Yet there is a separate category for "Huron", which is a cultural category, even though the original language of that carol is French.

If trouble is going to be taken to include a separate category for the Huron carol, then there really has to be a separate category for "American" as well. Many of the carols currently lumped under "English" are distinctly American in origin, and often in sentiment:

Away In A Manger; Children, Go Where I Send Thee; A Christmas Carol; Go Tell It On The Mountain; Jingle Bells; The Little Drummer Boy; It Came Upon A Midnight Clear; I Heard The Bells On Christmas Day; I Wonder As I Wander; O Little Town of Bethlehem; Rise Up Shepherd and Foller; We Three Kings

There are other issues with the article, but the chief one I see is that of organizational consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 22:50, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

The issues, as I see them, are not as you claim, but with the origin of the songs. Since so many songs are borrowed by others, it would be best to have an alphabetical listing of songs with an English translation as needed, list a referenced origin of the song, then list whether the songs has been translated into another language or has alternate melodies in English (etc.). Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:03, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree with you that the issues with the article are not as User :70.89.176.249 claims (since he/she does seem to contradict his/her own argument but rather with as you write the origin of songs, translation, and referencing. With this in mind I have provided a collapsible table that you can view below as food for thought and which might satisfy all concerned. I think the best way forward may be a sortable table similar to that which is utilised in the List of fairy tales wiki article. The table may have sections such as Carol, Composer/Lyricist, Year Published, Origin/Region, Language, variant languages/Melodies, and Notes. Those who are interested in the origin of the carols by language can click the language button and the carols will be arranged by language in alphabetical order, those who are interested in the origin of the carol click the origin and the carols will be arranged by origin in alphabetical order, and the same with the other categories.

The example I present below includes Arabic, Catalan, Irish, and Italian (which I have alphabetised to the best I can at the moment). However there is still much work that would need to be done.

In regards to the translation into English of the carols in their native languages, it may require writing a message on the List of Christmas Carols talk pages of those wiki articles and asking people from those pages to translate the carols into English. In any way, have a look at the table and tell me what you think.

Click on this to see example of possible sortable table of Christmas Carols

Fairy tales and their origins Carol Composer/Lyricist Year Published Origin/Region Language Variant Languages/Melodies Notes "A Betlem me'n vull anar" (lit. "I want to go to Bethlehem") Traditional Catalan "A Virgin Queen in Bethlehem" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Anem a Betlem" (lit. "We're going to Bethlehem") Traditional Catalan "An Angel This Night" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "An Ciarrí Carúl Nollaig" ("The Kerry Christmas Carol") Traditional Irish Irish "Ara ve Nadal" (lit. "Christmas is coming") Traditional Catalan "Behold Three Kings Come From the East" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "Christmas Day Is Come" (also known as "The Irish Carol") words by Fr. William Devereaux, 18th Century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Curoo Curoo" ("The Carol of the Birds") Traditional Irish English "Descanseu ben alegres" (lit. "Rest very happy") Traditional Catalan "Don Oíche úd I mBeithil" ("That Night In Bethlehem") Traditional Irish Irish "Dormi, dormi, bel Bambin" Italian "El cant dels ocells" (lit. "Song of the Birds") Traditional; Pablo Casals arranged the song for cello Lyrics are printed in 17th century Catalan also known as "Carol of Birds" "El desembre congelat" (lit. "Frozen December") Traditional Catalan "El dimoni escuat" (lit. "the devil with no tail") Traditional Catalan "El Noi de la Mare" (lit. "The Son of the Mother") Traditional 17th-18th century Catalan Also known as "Carol of the Gifts" "El rabadà" (lit. "The shepherd") Traditional Catalan "Fum, Fum, Fum" ("El vint-i-cinc de desembre") Traditional 16th century Catalan The word "fum" may imitate the sound of a drum (or perhaps the strumming of a guitar). "Fum" means "smoke"(noun) in Catalan. "Gesù bambino" ("The Infant Jesus") Pietro Yon 1917 Italian "When Blossoms Flowered" in English" "Hail Ye Flowers of Martyrs" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Jerusalem, Our Happy Home" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "La pastora Caterina" (lit. "Caterina, the shepherd") Traditional Catalan "Les dotze van tocant" (lit. "Ringing twelve o'clock") Traditional Catalan "Now To Conclude Our Christmas Mirth" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Oíche Nollag" ("Christmas Eve") Traditional Irish Irish "Pastorets de la muntanya" (lit. "Shepherds from the mountain") Traditional Catalan "Sant Josep i la Mare de Déu" (lit. "Saint Joseph and the Virgin Mary") Traditional Catalan "St John did Lean on Jesus' Breast" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "St Stephen Had an Angel's Face" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "Suantraí na Maighdine" ("The Virgin's Lullaby") Traditional Irish Irish Also known as "The Christ Child's Lullaby" or "Mary's Lullaby" "Sweet Jesus Was the Sacred Name" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "Sweetest of All Names, Jesus" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Talj, Talj" ("Snow, Snow") Fairuz Arabic "The Angel Said to Joseph Mild" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "The Darkest Midnight in December" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "The First Day of the Year" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "This Christmass Day You Pray me Sing" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (short Carol) "This Feast of St Sylvester So Well Deserves a Song" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "This is our Christmas Day" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, (Short Carol) "This is St Stephen's Day" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "To Greet Our Saviour's Dear One" words by Fr. Luke Waddinge 17th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols" "Tu scendi dalle stelle" ("From Starry Skies Thou Comest") Traditional Italian "Wexford Carol" (also "Enniscorthy Carol") Traditional Irish English "Ya Maryam el Bekr" ("O Virgin Mary") Fairuz Arabic "Ye Sons of Men with Me Rejoice" words by Fr. William Devereaux 18th century Irish English Irish traditional, Part of "The Kilmore Carols"

The list looks short but quite good. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:42, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Curious as to what contradictions you noted in the above analysis?

You proposed reorganization is a significant improvement, and I support it.

I still think that the "language" colum is superfluous, however. Chrismas carols and songs have been translated into virtually every language, some so long ago that the "original" language can be virtually impossible to determine. I have, for example, an entire book on "Silent Night" (which we happen to know was originally in German), in which the lyrics have been translated into 60 different languages. Moreover, in some of these languages extra verses have been written which don't appear in other languages (but could, of course, if someone takes a fancy to them and decides to translate them).

Still, your version of the chart is a definite step forward; go for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.89.176.249 (talk) 21:33, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

References

Romanian carols

Why are the translations of the Romanian carols not given?Vorbee (talk) 18:25, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Australian Christmas Carols

Not sure if I'm putting this in the right place, but wondering if someone could please add Australian Christmas carols to the list. There's a lot of them, a few well known ones can be found here https://www.australiantimes.co.uk/lifestyle/entertainment/10-greatest-ever-australian-christmas-songs/ but with terrible examples of them being sung) In particular

- "Carol of the Birds (Orana)" & "The Three Drovers" are very well known Aussie carols to all school children & performed at almost every end of year/Christmas primary school concert

- "The Wiggles" songs such as "go santa go" & "santa wear your shorts" are sung to 100,000 people live each year, along with millions of tv viewers at the Sydney Carols by Candlelight & just as much staples to Aussie kids as Jingle bells or Rudolf the red nose reindeer are

- "Santa Never Made It into Darwin" reached number 2 on the Australian music charts https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Bill_and_Boyd

- Rolf Harris's "6 white boomers" is also an old staple

Christmas in Australia is in the middle of summer, so replacements are needed for carols that other countries sing that relate to snow & cold, so we have a lot of locally written ones, the above being some of the most universal ones — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.211.105.8 (talk) 15:54, 29 November 2020 (UTC)

Huron Carol

The "Huron Carol" ("Jesous Ahatonhia") is listed under American carols. However, when you go to the page about the Huron Carol, it is cited as a Canadian carol, having been written in 1642 by French Jesuit missionary Jean de Brébeuf. The original language of the carol is Huron/Wendat with the carol later translated into English. (I wonder if there is a French-language version.)

I can make this change, but I wonder if I should add it as a Canadian carol or an Indigenous-language carol (or even specifically a North American Indigenous-language or Huron/Wendat-language carol). Or can it be added to both categories (which would mean creating two new categories)?

I'd appreciate guidance on this from a more experienced Wikipedia editor.

Thank you for your input. Bayonett (talk) 15:37, 12 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, you can. It's quite Canadian. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:42, 12 December 2020 (UTC)