Talk:Leonhard Grill

This article was nominated for deletion on 4 December 2024. The result of the discussion was keep.

Feedback from New Page Review process

I left the following feedback for the creator/future reviewers while reviewing this article: This is a problematic page. While he has an early Foresight prize, his current h-factor is not strong and his citations per year are dropping rather than rising. For certain a lot more sources are needed for a BLP. Even then notability is unclear as this is a quite high citation area.

Ldm1954 (talk) 23:55, 21 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ldm1954:

Thanks for the Info. Scince he has a Wikipedia-Page in the (very strict) German Wikipedia, I had the Impression, that his Impact-Factor is high enough. Also the Represantatives of Wikimedia Austria told us Univiersity-Communicators, that regular Professors at the main Universities (University of Graz has 3500 academic staff and aprox 30k Students) in Austria are important enough to have Bio-Pages.

That´s the reason, I also translated the German Page to the englisch Wikipedia.

Regarding the Criteria for Academics: I See them met.

He is a fellow of the Royal Society of Chemestry
He has an ERC Advanced Grant, one of the highest Grants in the EU
He is a distinguished Professor at the University of Graz, the second largest University in Austria, with more the 400 Years of academic history.

Regarding the Sources: All cited sources (13) are only those from the highest ranking scientific journals, which are clearly verifiable. When you say, a lot more sources are needed, can you give me a number, so I can add all the other scientific journals where he is a regulary contributor.

RomanVilgut (talk) 10:19, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The criteria in different languages are very different, and here for academics they are much stricter. For instance being regular a Prof at amajor universities is not considered notable just because of the position. Please check carefully WP:NPROF, his h-factor is marginal when compared to others in his field. As some other specifics:

FRSC is not considered notable, as it is not selective
Grants do not really prove anything
Only Trustee Chairs, i.e. ones that only 2-3 receive in the whole university are sufficiently notable.

In terms of sources it is not a number, please read WP:BLP. There are no independent sources for your #Life section and there must be. Similarly of the 7 awards only 2 have sources (and several such as an award for supervision are routine, see WP:MILL). Ldm1954 (talk) 13:09, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Ldm1954:

I read the WP:NPROF very carefully. Leonhard Grill fullfills the criteria.

You can argue, that the h-factor is one way to messuare criteria 1a, but it is not listed as such. Andn "Differences in typical citation and publication rates and in publication conventions between different academic disciplines should be taken into account."

But even if you argue, that criteria 1a is not met fully, the criteria 1d ("publications in especially prestigious and selective academic journals;" and 1e "significant academic awards" (which are now cited) are met.

Also criteria 5 is met fully (a, b and c) - the University of Graz is a major institution of higher education and research

But I took your adviced and cited 6 of the 7 awards and put also two citations into the life section. Could do more, if needed. RomanVilgut (talk) 14:23, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, for certain 5 is not met. As I said before just being a Professor is not enough, he needs a very high level chair. This is specifically stated, and has also been discussed in WT:NPROF
For certain 1d does not mean anything in the Sciences, as everyone published in good journals. All that really means is that publications in pay-to-play journals should be ignored.
You completely misunderstood what I said about sources. As one example it should be

After his undergraduate studies in physics at the University of Graz, Grill worked with Silvio Modesti at the Istituto Nazionale per la Fisica della Materia (INFM) in Trieste on his doctoral thesis: "Growth of thin metallic overlayers on Ge(111): Electron confinement and characterization of image resonances by selective electron scattering". He then moved to the Free University of Berlin (FU Berlin) to work with Karl-Heinz Rieder where he began to work on the manipulation of single molecules using scanning tunneling microscopy (STM). In 2009, he completed his postdoctoral qualification (habilitation) at the FU Berlin and became group leader at the Fritz Haber Institute of the Max Planck Society (Department of Physical Chemistry, headed by Martin Wolf). In addition, he worked as a lecturer at the FU Berlin before being appointed Professor of Physical Chemistry at the University of Graz in 2013.

Note that the source [2] does not prove that he completed his habilitation. I have marked some of them. Please do not fight me on this, I have reviewed many academic articles. If you are not happy then I will post this for an WP:AfD discussion. Ldm1954 (talk) 15:23, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A Major issue. The CopyPatrol is currently showing that 55.1% of edit https://bibliographie.ub.rub.de/entry/de16e7b4-39a8-44ee-8155-b0826772eaa5// It is very likely that someone will delete the sections today if you do not do anything about this. (That is a different group of editors, and they are very, very strict.) Ldm1954 (talk) 15:27, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I do not want to fight, I just want to understand. If the Source of the habilitation-paper does not proof that he completed the habilitation, what does? I mean, he is a full professor at the University of Graz.

Regarding to Point 5. I do not know, how academia works in the us. But heaving a full professorship (UP) on a public university in Austria is a high level chair. He is one of 5 in the whole department of chemistry with aprox 60 Persons in the academic stuff, not counting Phd-Candidates.

When I go through the discussion in WT:NPROF I really get the fealing, the english wiki does not want Pages of non-native academics, otherwise the criteria would not be so america-centric.

But again, I do not want to fight. I will retreat, but with mixed feelings about the pecking order in academia. RomanVilgut (talk) 15:43, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A paper does not prove a habilitation or a PhD. For instance, for the later you should find a pdf of his thesis which is probably at the university library. Similarly there may be a record of his undergrad somewhere etc.

I counted the academic staff (Prof's) at https://chemie.uni-graz.at/en/institute-of-chemistry/personalities/scientific-staff/, and there are 17 of which 6-8 have Univ.-Prof. in their title (I don't know all the details of the names, which is why it is a range.) That is 1/3, so it is not selective enough.

You can look at https://www.mccormick.northwestern.edu/materials-science/people/faculty/ where the only people who have a Chair that would qualify under #C5 are Chad Mirkin, John A. Rogers and Samuel Stupp. They are somewhat more notable, and easily qualify under #C1. Ldm1954 (talk) 16:02, 22 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

While I thought this page to be problamatic at first as well, I do believe at least some of the claims being made here to be true. I was able to find these, (even if not fully accurate to each claim being made) citations for the following:

"After his undergraduate studies in physics at the University of Graz," - https://scholar.google.at/citations?user=Hk6wtQkAAAAJ&hl=de

This profile displays Leonhard as a staff working at the University of Graz, and also gives a corresponding academic email to further verify these claims. From this google scholar site I was able to find (some) confirmation that he may of "moved to the Free University of Berlin (FU Berlin) to work with Karl-Heinz Rieder" in https://scholar.google.at/citations?view_op=view_citation&hl=de&user=Hk6wtQkAAAAJ&citation_for_view=Hk6wtQkAAAAJ:bFI3QPDXJZMC, however there seems to be no mention about any university of Berlin on the page.

I still think it's important to recgonize that this page may have some personal bias from bad actors. The answer to this discussion lies in the middle of the argument (as with most), and I believe that a more objective rewrite of this article would be best. Please let me know if you disagree or have any quesitons about my conclusions! I would love to answer them or just dicuss.

Best,

Luke Elaine Burke (talk) 12:30, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I did forget to include https://nano-lab.uni-graz.at/en/ which does seem to further that Leonhard is at the very least an academic collaborating with the university.

Luke Elaine Burke (talk) 12:34, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The issue is not whether the claims about where he worked are true or false, at least I assume they are not false as that would be very serious. The issue is that everything significant in a BLP must be verified. For instance a statement that he received a PhD needs an independent source such as a proper ref with a link to an online pdf. Unfortunately we cannot use a Google scholar site, and his personal web site is self-published.

I am comparatively gentle about this; there are some who will just delete material (as has already happened to the FRSC.) Ldm1954 (talk) 13:18, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you so much for your kindness, I am relativily new to all of this and it is appreciated.

13:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC) Luke Elaine Burke (talk) 13:23, 25 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]