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Archive 1Archive 2

Ukrainian casualties: Russian claim

According to the Russian MOD the Ukrainian forces lost 12,200 servicemen in Kursk as of 11th September 2024: "Kiev lost some 7,000 troops in Sudzha district of Kursk Region — commander". TASS.

~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 12:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

The ministry did not provide evidence for the claim and casualty figures are frequently manipulated by both sides to accentuate the opponent’s losses - Russia launches counterattacks to retake Kursk after incursion stalls (cnbc.com) ManyAreasExpert (talk) 13:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Zelenskyy's claim of 6k Russian casualties is baseless, too. Nonetheless it, together with the old Russian claim, is still present in the infobox.
~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 16:18, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Remove both then. Vehicles and prisoners numbers may stay. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 16:20, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Almost the exact same discussion was had previous month which you were apart of: here. Adding these Sources while attributing them to Russia or Ukraine directly seems to be fine. Alex.Wajoe (talk) 17:52, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
See WP:TASS for additional info. Borgenland (talk) 08:03, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Veseloe Situation

For the past 2 days there has been reports of clashes along the Russo-Ukraine border, specifically near Novi Put. Now, it seems that Ukraine has committed to a "2nd Incursion into Kursk" if you can call it that, and has captured the village of Veseloe, 4 miles south of Glushkovo. To back up this claim, the Institute for the Study of War has said these claims are true, and that Veseloe is indeed under Ukrainian hands as of today (September 14th).

I just wanted to know if there is currently ongoing investigation into this situation, and whether or not this will be added to the article in the (very) near future. 2601:1C0:4D7F:57C0:CE0:7995:A310:9735 (talk) 20:06, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

"Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian forces attacked southwest of Glushkovo near Novy Put (uk)/Новый Путь (ru) and Veseloye and Medvezhye (east of Veseloye [;-))])."[1]
btw, "Veseloe" means 'delighted, cheerful, etc., etc... .' ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 21:02, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Done. Most of the notable information given in the ISW reports of the past two days was added, although there's likely more info on the Ukrainian advances south of Glushkovo in MSM sources. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 21:26, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, September 13, 2024". understandingwar.org. ISW. 2024-09-13. Retrieved 2024-09-14.

Western Russia warfare

Occiput of cmr Mao

was m' idea for the title (accompanied by a 90+-y-r-old dictator on/in his wheelchair, or, say, by a bust of Mr Great (see the image on the right (to be replaced by a specific occiput)); or, whatsoever... anyway, in 25/50/100 yrs, the article shall be renamed, just a thought... ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 18:27, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

We have a move request active above, please comment there. Slatersteven (talk) 10:21, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

20 September

It is not the 20th of September yet it will not be the 20th of September for another 3 to 4 days so that date should changed to whatever the date was meant to be originally Huumas (talk) 11:07, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Removed. Slatersteven (talk) 11:14, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Belgorod?

I saw a YouTube video about Ukraine invading Belgorod.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?si=-SLXX5GkCZW-VowP&v=wJTf6C2yG_I&feature=youtu.be TheT.N.T.BOOM! (talk) 13:43, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

When an RS says it so can we. Slatersteven (talk) 13:49, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
you can't cite youtube Scuba 16:43, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

source wrongly flagged as RT

Moved from User talk:Manyareasexpert § source wrongly flagged as RT
 – ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Hello, I recently added something to the september 16 2024 news page, stating that the Russian MOD had stated that two settlements in Kursk were captured. However, it now says on my page that the source was removed for being unreliable as it was from RT. However, I did not cite RT, I cited a different news source called Big News Network (which I admit isn't up there with BBC or whatever but it didn't seem to be listed among the depreciated sources).

Also, as an aside, since this is something saying what the Russian MOD says, wouldn't RT being depreciated not factor in? Genabab (talk) 12:45, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

I cited a different news source called Big News Network
It reproduces RT. Neither are reliable. Used the words so vague it was not even clear if it was Ru MOD or not. ManyAreasExpert (talk) 12:58, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Okay Genabab (talk) 13:48, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
I don't think "Big News Network" is reliable either lmao. Scuba 16:44, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Update of Russian Counteroffensive

Major General Apti Alaudinov, the commander of the Chechen Akhmat special forces deployed in Kursk, told Russian state news agency Tass on Wednesday that the situation was "good," adding that Russian troops had "gone on the offensive" along the "right flank" in Kursk.

A total of 10 settlements have been recaptured by Russia since Tuesday, Alaudinov said. Separately, Alaudinov reshared a Russian military blogger statement on his Telegram channel on Wednesday, which described a "breakthrough" in Kursk that drove Ukrainian forces from "nearly a dozen villages."

"A prominent Russian military blogger said early on Wednesday that Russian forces were advancing in several settlements, including Apanasovka and Byakhovo, south of Korenevo. Another military blogger said Russia had seized control of Snagost, a village south of Korenevo, and a handful of settlements including Byakhovo."

https://www.newsweek.com/russia-kursk-counteroffensive-ukraine-1951986 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:5553:B000:997E:FEE8:2E06:3215 (talk) 14:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Lol GreatLeader1945 TALK 13:59, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Isn't that the new Bagdad Bob? 2001:A62:159E:8C02:21D7:D26C:951F:D562 (talk) 08:00, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
Newsweek I'm still not sure why they aren't depreciated on WP:RSP after they revealed they're making articles with AI now. Scuba 14:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 1 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus opposed to rename, closed per WP:SNOW. (non-admin closure) Scuba 15:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

August 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion → Ukrainian invasion of Russia – Option B from section #Attempting to gain consensus seems to be a viable arternative --Altenmann >talk 21:41, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

  • Comment: Just looking at the above section I don't think directly proposing we move it to anything with "invasion" in the title is the best choice, as it would likely result in a "no consensus" as we seem to be split halfway between whether or not "invasion" is a good title; I don't think we need any additional RM right now, as this seems like extra bureaucratic work for little change; we should remove the "August" from the title without having to wait seven days, so for now either moving the page to "2024 Kursk Oblast incursion" or "2024 Kursk offensive" seems the best choice, as sources don't seem to give any preference to incursion, offensive, or invasion. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 21:52, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
I agree with the month removal, since it is now September and the incursion is still pretty much alive and well. Procyon117 (talk) 04:09, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Agree with the proposed removal of the month, but "invasion" suggests Ukraine intends permanent occupation of the territory concerned, when it seems that the incursion aims to convince Russia to pull back from Ukrainian frontlines. Culloty82 (talk) 18:23, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
  • If it gets large scale, then fine, otherwise, rename to 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion or something. Dawsongfg (talk) 23:06, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose "Invasion of russia" is an extreme overaggeration of what's going on. It's literally only a portion of kursk oblast that has been attacked. This is like calling the Kargil War the "Pakistani invasion of India". I would prefer something like "Ukrainian Invasion of Kursk" or "Kursk Offensive (2024)" Hind242 (talk) 10:58, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support This name is clear, descriptive and distinctive which allows the ‘August’ to be dropped from the title. The term ‘invasion’ or ‘invaded’ is used by numerous media outlets to describe this event:
Therefore I believe this name fits WP:COMMONNAME. I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 08:31, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
While some of those sources do call it an invasion of Russia, most are more specific and call it an invasion of Russia's Kursk region. – Asarlaí (talk) 12:35, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
sensationalizing an incursion to grab eyeballs is obviously a good strategy by media outlets but that must not change the crux of the matter that it's not even near as comprehensive as an invasion Nohorizonss (talk) 16:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support I suggested this in the previous move discussion. This is the largest and longest invasion of Russia since Operation Barbarossa and should be recognized as such. While "incursion" and "offensive" are accurate descriptions, they don't encompass the seriousness of the situation. "Incursion" implies a brief entry into foreign territory akin to a raid, which is listed as a synonym at Merriam Webster. However, this has been going on for nearly a month now, so it's losing relevance as a descriptor. "Offensive (military)", as noted in the Wiki article, is a term that is used alongside invasion. However, I prefer invasion because it's less vague. Imagine if Wikipedia's article was titled "Russian offensive in Ukraine". How would that be different from the current Russian invasion of Ukraine article? To me, such an article would imply that there was a greater conflict that this is just one front in a larger war. But invasion invokes something similar, such as the invasion of Normandy that took place within a war (whose article name on Wikipedia is the name of the operation: Operation Overlord). For that reason, I support this current name change of "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" because of its prolific use in reliable sources. As a side note, "Kursk offensive" currently redirects to Battle of Kursk, and for that reason, I'd recommend against redirecting it to this article or renaming this article to Kursk offensive, as the Battle of Kursk is far more notable. "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" has the benefit of clearly disambiguating from that.--JasonMacker (talk) 17:20, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support for same reason as before. Title is clear, concise, and used in reliable sources. When I was looking for the article I myself typed in 'Ukrainian invasion of Russia' to find it and I imagine that will be a much more common query and name for this subject. Furthermore nothing about the term 'invasion' necessitates permanent territorial occupation or a negative moral valence, e.g. Western Allied invasion of Germany during World War 2. TocMan (talk) 17:48, 3 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose. "Invasion of Russia" overstates the size of this operation. It's not an invasion of Russia in general - the world's biggest country. It's an invasion, incursion or offensive into one small region. Most of the sources refer to Kursk, so I vote for Ukrainian invasion of Kursk or Ukrainian offensive in Kursk. – Asarlaí (talk) 12:18, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support I used to be in the "offensive" camp but I've come around to invasion. A great many RS call it an invasion and the fact that it is now essentially an indefinitely permanent action (until land exchange or expulsion) lends weight to this being more serious than offensive (incursion is no longer valid at all imho). Furthermore Ukrainian Invasion of Russia is a good title, clear and concise, maybe 2024 Ukrainian Invasion of Russia. Finally, as far as "invasion" being biased against ukraine within the scope of the overall wars actions, even pro-ukrane RS like Kyiv Post are calling it Invasion, and prominently. Here's their lead for today https://www.kyivpost.com/analysis/38457 EDIT I perhaps misunderstood the main thrust of this debate - I support Ukranian Invasion of Kursk - the main point for me is transforming incursion to invasion, be in Ukranian Invasion of Kursk or Ukranian Invasion of Russia or even 2024 Ukranian Invasion of Kursk, just as long as incursion is gone - incursion this is not!
  • Oppose; this is not a "full-scale invasion of Russia", which despite what some editors say, is what such a title implies to the average reader, that Ukraine is indeed launching a massive operation with a size comparable to that of the previous invasion; and yes, that was the previous invasion, ("in World War II") but that is irrelevant when the current Ukrainian offensive cannot be equally called an "invasion", implying based on usage in related articles a similar size or impact; sources which do use the "invasion" wording often qualify it with "of Kursk Oblast", which we should either do here or use "2024 Kursk offensive". A non-invasion title is no less "clear and concise" and is equally used by reliable sources, and calling this, without qualifying as to what part of Russia, a "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" is trying to make this something it's not. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 03:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose. This doesn't seem like an accurate title, though removing the month makes sense. 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion is better, as it's more accurate and simply chops off one word, but even Ukrainian incursion of Kursk Oblast works (and you could potentially swap incursion for invasion or offensive, if there's consensus to do that). Essentially, I think we need to be clear and unambiguous about the extent of the incursion/invasion/offensive, and it's certainly not an invasion of the entirety of Russia. Lewisguile (talk) 13:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose in favor of Ukrainian invasion of Kursk. Scale doesn't match a Russia-wide name but "incursion" is an inappropriate word for something with this duration. ~ Pbritti (talk) 16:47, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support, clear title and the WP:COMMONNAME used by RS. Most of the opposition to the proposed title comes from claims that "Ukrainian invasion of Russia" implies it being a larger-scale operation than it is, but I don't see how that is the case: it is completely normal for invasions to only cover a small amount of the invaded country. Chessrat (talk, contributions) 23:55, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support It's not merely an incursion, which implies a minor scrap or occupation of borderlands, there are actual settlements that are under the administration now of Ukraine, with the people of those towns now under the administration of Ukrainian operatives. Idk why people play politics with these things, you call other instances similar to this where the side invading takes settlements in another country an invasion, but somehow there is no issue with it seeming too "strong", no complains about "neutral terms". It just seems like the "good guys" do "incursions", while the "bad guys" do "invasions". You want to follow that logic ok fine, but then don't go around pretending Wikipedia articles are nonpartisan and objective. Midgetman433 (talk) 20:32, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
    That (referring to the viewpoint that calling it an incursion makes the article biased in favor of Ukraine) is definitely one possible way of seeing it. Another possible way of seeing things is that calling it an invasion gives Ukraine too much credit (makes it seem like they are gaining lots of territory overall) when they are actually still losing ground within Ukraine. You could argue either way, that calling it an incursion rather than an invasion or calling it an invasion rather than an incursion, could be biased towards Ukraine. Obviously, it is not possible to completely eliminate all possibility bias and make it completely non-existent, but it is definitely Wikipedia's policy to maintain a neutral point of view. Anonymous Libertarian (talk) 00:49, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
    I agree there is questions of bias in terms of invasion vs incursion, but within the scope of the english definition of incursion this is not - incursion implies small unit tactics, a battalion at most within a limited time frame, a "heavy raid." This articles scope refers to invasion or at least offensive, given RS tend to lean toward invasion over offensive so should we imho. 2605:A601:5553:B000:648F:C4B:5C87:77E2 (talk) 13:52, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Rather than changing the article title entirely, I think it would be much better to just drop the month of it and have it be "2024 Kursk Oblast Incursion". Then, if it is still ongoing in 2025, we could then change the title again to be 2024-2025. Militants fighting for Ukraine have already crossed the border into Russia, just that this time around it is the actual formal Ukrainian army doing it (and with a relatively larger amount of land). Not only might calling it an invasion potentially give it too much importance, it is usually better to preserve the existing article title as much as possible, that way people can still just as easily find the article even if they are remembering the old article title and using that to search for the article. Anonymous Libertarian (talk) 00:41, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose "invasion of Russia" which implies a much wider operation at the scale of the country, but support "invasion of Kursk Oblast" or "Kursk Oblast offensive" as the scale has grown beyond a simple incursion. Having "Kursk Oblast" in the title would be the best in my opinion, as the operation turned out to be very much localized in that oblast, with only minor incursions in nearby oblasts. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 20:58, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose invasion of Russia is not the common name and the current tile (absent August) is more concise and descriptive of this particular event. Yeoutie (talk) 01:56, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
Comment: Can this be closed already? Most want to rename it to 2024 Kursk offensive as its called in numerous news articles not to Ukrainian Invasion of Russia nor to 2024 Western Russia incursion. So stop wasting time to stop the inevitable.
Also remove Belgorod Oblast from Location in the info box. That's from a related event not part of the offensive. Otherwise you'd have to add Bryansk Oblast and Lipetsk Oblast as well.
~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 13:37, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Do you really think offensive is the consensus? I'm no editor, but a rough eyeballing of what we got leans toward something along the lines of "Ukrainian Invasion of Kursk" 2605:A601:5553:B000:99E0:F808:5D74:CD76 (talk) 16:41, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose As funny as this title is, I think 2024 Kursk incursion would be a better title. --Chicken4War (talk) 11:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
Support Per TocMan. If it's an invasion, it's an invasion, although it would probably better to rename it to Kursk Invasion to avoid perennial title change requests. Miffedpenguin (talk) 00:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
Comment: I really don’t get the scale argument mentioned by some users above, who are opposing the move, stating that this attack can’t be described as an invasion of Russia because it is only happening in a single oblast (in this case Kursk oblast) or it implies a much wider operation at the scale of the country. With that logic, it is practically impossible for smaller countries – for example Azerbaijan and Latvia – to (hypothetically speaking of course) invade Russia since these countries only border one Russian oblast.
It's not an invasion of Russia in general. How would one single country be able to pull that off? It sounds geographically impossible considering, as this user mentioned afterwards, that Russia is the largest country in the world by area.
That would sound like [country] is attacking Russia from multiple directions. Continuing from the previous point, there is no country in the world that would be able to do this on its own. Simply because of the size of Russia as a country and the fact that no country borders Russia both in the west, south and east. I Know I'm Not Alone (talk) 15:45, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
To get even more pendantic, technically defined an incursion is a type of invasion, characterized by a short time frame (this is definitionally not an incursion). 2605:A601:5553:B000:5C1:A896:3DC9:FD7 (talk) 18:23, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
That you can't understand the difference between the terms "incursion" and "invasion" (and the latter is ALWAYS used to denote a massive, full-scale wide-front attack and entry into a country), is your problem. Probably even if Ukraine occupied a single km2 of Russia at the border, you'd also want to call it an invasion, but that's not how things are IRL. GreatLeader1945 TALK 19:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
maybe they want to spread someone's propaganda ig Nohorizonss (talk) 19:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
RS support both incursion and invasion, it's our job to decide which is best. The only reason to call this incursion is common name - but common name also supports invasion. It's objectively NOT an incursion, but it objectively IS an invasion. There is also support for offensive in RS. 2605:A601:5553:B000:5C1:A896:3DC9:FD7 (talk) 00:42, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
I don't see where "invasion" is "ALWAYS used to denote a denote a massive, full-scale wide-front attack". The Oxford English Dictionary clearly includes an incursion in what can be called an invasion: "The action of invading a country or territory as an enemy; an entrance or incursion with armed force; a hostile inroad."
That said, having looked at the article title policy, the incursion/invasion of Russia by Ukraine is clearly a response to the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. As Nohorizonss posted, the proposed title "would seem like Ukraine has started a new war on Russia." A more logical title for Ukrainian moves into Russian lands in Kursk, Belgorod, and any others that take place would be "Ukrainian Counter-invasion of Russia", as these invasions would not have occurred without the Russian invasion of Ukraine which violated the security guarantees given by the Russian Federation in the Budapest Memorandum of 1994. Johnd39 (talk) 03:07, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Strongly Oppose It would honestly be hilarious to call it an invasion, It would seem like Ukraine has started a new war on Russia from the entire border which is not the fact as it's simply a local incursion into Kursk oblast, furthermore i also oppose the term offensive* as Saar Offensive was started by France as an offensive against Nazi Germany in response to the invasion of Poland while the incursion is a broader part of a defensive strategy by Ukraine against Russia to regain her territorial integrity! Nohorizonss (talk) 16:41, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
    It was* nonetheless an offensive, even if that's offensive to you.
    (*Past tense because it has been halted since mid of August and now the western flank at Snagost has collapsed.)
    ~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 16:59, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Oppose Considering the recognizability and naturalness WP:CRITERIA, a search gives Newsweek - UA entered the Russian region, CNN - UA launched its assault ... Kursk operation ... incursion into Kursk ... Kursk offensive, CNN - UA Kursk offensive ... surprise incursion ... Kursk operation, The Straits Times - UA Kursk offensive ... UA's incursion, ABC (Au) UA's Kursk incursion, The Telegraph - cross-border raid into Kursk ... the assault ... the area of occupation, France 24 - Ukraine's incursion. I see no support in WP:RS for using the term "invasion". Boud (talk) 21:15, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Oppose While "invasion" is used in some reliable sources, that doesn't mean it's the most appropriate term. In common usage, the word implies a larger scale attack than has actually occurred. On the other hand, "incursion" is also not appropriate because it is associated with a "sudden or brief" operation (per Oxford dictionary). While the Ukrainian attack was sudden, it wasn't brief- they have now been in Russia for over a month and seem to be settling down for the long haul. For these reasons I support 2024 Kursk Offensive as an appropriate compromise. Jogarz1921 (talk) 08:54, 15 September 2024 (UTC)
Oppose until we see a sizable push into another oblast, this article should keep it's name as is. Scuba 16:42, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

First Occupation since WWII, not true

The article states that "The August 2024 incursion was the first incidence since World War II that Russian territory had been occupied by foreign forces." However, this is not actually true. In 1999, Ibn al-Khattab's force of foreign jihadists [Dagestan] within Russia and occupied several villages there before being ejected in a Russian counteroffensive. Unless there is any objection, i will revise accordingly.XavierGreen (talk) 20:40, 16 September 2024 (UTC)

Ethnic minorities fighting for their independence is not occupation by foreign forces. Dagestan isn't ethnically Russian, Kursk is. Scuba 23:53, 16 September 2024 (UTC)
Editors should not be doing original research. What do reliable sources say? We follow what they say. Bondegezou (talk) 09:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Ibn al-Khattab and his force were not from Dagestan, they were arab jihadist from various countries all over the place.XavierGreen (talk) 13:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Do RS call this a foreign occupation? Slatersteven (talk) 14:58, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Yes, there are plenty of sources that state that Khattab's force occupied Russian territory. See here [1] and here [2].XavierGreen (talk) 17:02, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
That source was published prior to this offensive; we need sources specifically relating Khattab's operations to today saying that it was the most recent foreign occupation of Russian territory; currently we only have sources stating the "since World War II" claim, which are used properly here, as whether they are really "correct" (i.e. based on what you think) or not does not matter. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 17:28, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Since the source cited conflicts with other reliable sources, the proper course of action pursuant to Wikipedia:Conflicting sources is to mention both.XavierGreen (talk) 19:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)
Quote please, as I can only see occupied towns in border districts. Slatersteven (talk) 12:07, 18 September 2024 (UTC)
Tsumadinsky District borders with Georgia and Chechnya, but invasion came from the Chechen side, not Georgia. Botlikhsky District borders only with Chechnya. At the time, it is true that Chechnya was a de facto independent state (Chechen Republic of Ichkeria), but was still de jure part of Russia. That many (the most part ?) of the volunteers were foreigners is not relevant. It looks more like an internal Russian conflict. --Robertiki (talk) 16:35, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
Kattab's force was a band of international jihadists. Reliable sources (already quoted) plainly state that they invaded and occupied Russian territory. I think the language as it currently stands in the article treats it in the most NPOV way possible.XavierGreen (talk) 19:09, 20 September 2024 (UTC)
Found only one source, Donaldson, please quote it.--Robertiki (talk) 03:44, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

Rename to 2024 Kursk offensive

This seems to be the WP:COMMONNAME.

Alternatively, it could be renamed to 2024 Kursk offensives, because the counter-offensive as well as the Glushkovo attempt can be seen as their own offensives.

I'm not allowed to file a rename request, as I'm not WP:XC (see WP:RUSUKR). So, can someone else file it?

~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 10:24, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Infobox: Location

Remove Belgorod Oblast from Location in the infobox.

Firstly, it's from a related event. If those should be listed, then Bryansk Oblast is missing, because the AFU tried incursions there, too.

Secondly, it doesn't fit the title. The rename request to August 2024 Western Russia incursions failed.

~< Valentinianus I (talk) >~ 10:46, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Moved to footnote. If there were any attempted incursions into Bryansk, they're not mentioned in the article. Mentioning Belgorod but clarifying it is not the main effort, similar to 2024 Kharkiv offensive with Sumy and Chernihiv, is the best option in my view. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 19:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 25 September 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. per discussion below. Best, (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans 18:23, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

August 2024 Kursk Oblast incursion → 2024 Kursk offensive – The offensive is far beyond 2024 August until now, so the "2024 August" is less suitable for this moment. Cmsth11126a02 (talk) 13:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

other reason per @Valentinianus I:.--Cmsth11126a02 (talk) 13:25, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Whilst I agree its silly now to name it august, we can't keep on having rename discussions, can we leave it at leat 4 weeks? Slatersteven (talk) 13:26, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
The reason why there are so many rename discussions is because it is no longer August. Seeing that, the most obvious and intuitive course of action would be to simply drop the "August" and have it be "2024 Kursk Oblast incursion". However, all the requests so far seem to be going beyond just that and making a change that not everyone can agree on.
This is the reason why, despite wanting to see the article be renamed, I would say that I oppose this. When it comes to bigger changes, there's a good likelihood that the discussion would end up getting bogged down, not because people disagree with dropping "August" from the title, but because they disagree with the exact specifics of the proposed change. On the other hand, if we go with the more intuitive change of simply removing "August" from the title and having it be "2024 Kursk Oblast incursion", I don't see why there won't be a full 100% (or nearly 100%) consensus behind that change. It is also very likely that there won't be any further rename discussions after that change is being made, because most people aren't going to see any reason to want to change the title any further if it is titled "2024 Kursk Oblast incursion".
Rather than getting bogged down with the specifics of what exactly the title should be changed to, it is much better to first make a change that is fully uncontroversial, and then consider making further changes later on. The consensus would be much stronger and the renaming would also happen much faster with less need for discussion. And once the more obvious change has been completed, that then gives people more time to propose and discuss the more substantive changes, like whether it should be called an "incursion", "offensive", "invasion", or something else. Another benefit is that the renaming will also seem a lot less arbitrary and much more precise and narrow: rather than simply taking the idea of whoever happened to make the requested move that is active at this particular moment simply because we need to remove "August" from the title, which might seem arbitrary, it would be better to focus on the one very simple and uncontroversial change first and then discuss any other potential changes after that. Anonymous Libertarian (talk) 21:01, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Removing August only is ok for me, if it could help making any progress.--Cmsth11126a02 (talk) 12:17, 29 September 2024 (UTC)
→ Western Russia theater of operations (with or without a timeframe) could/would be one option. ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 15:06, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Some variation of "western Russia" was already attempted to no success. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 15:15, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support per WP:CRITERIA, more concise (and accurate). Offensive seems to be more commonly used as well. Media don't refer to it as the Western Russia theatre
Kowal2701 (talk) 20:41, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
Support per WP:CRITERIA as three real improvements (offensive instead of incursion, drop August, drop Oblast) over the current name. gidonb (talk) 12:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom. More than an incursion, less than an invasion of Russia, as has been stated by many in the previous RMs but never acted upon. With this the proposed title is one that has a good chance of actually achieving consensus around it, rather than the questionable proposals of RMs of past. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 12:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Support per norm and nature of the operation. Hind242 (talk) 13:29, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Support per nom. Mellk (talk) 14:00, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Support as it is already September, and it is an offensive rather than an incursion.PatrickChiao (talk) 14:02, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Support per norm. If the Russian 2024 Kharkiv offensive is considered an offensive, then this should certainly be considered one as well. One Hop2482 (talk) 14:30, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Western Russia offensive, then? ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 19:27, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Kursk offensive is clearer. Western Russia reeks of OR. gidonb (talk) 02:55, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Not necessarily only “Kursk” ("Putin tasked the FSB with conducting a counterterrorism operation in Belgorod, Bryansk, and Kursk oblasts on August 9 following the start of the Ukrainian incursion into Kursk Oblast on August 6, but then ..."[1]). ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 06:52, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
Despite that reliable sources overwhelmingly still refer to Kursk specifically. Unless "western Russia" is a term used in sources to describe this then it remains OR. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 07:16, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
The Kharkiv offensive hasn't penetrated as far as Kursk, nor has it occupied the same number of settlements. If Ukraine holds more land, and more settlements, why is Ukraine's offensive treated just as an "incursion"? Scuba 02:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Support look forward to being back here on new-years when we change the name to be Ukrainian Kursk Offensive. Scuba 02:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Support. For reasons already said. Professor Penguino (talk) 05:00, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
Support at least the month dropping. It's going to be October very soon (in fact it's already October in the timezone where I'm from). Having August still in the title is kinda ridiculous at this point. Procyon117 (talk) 15:21, 30 September 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, September 26, 2024". understandingwar.org. ISW. 26 September 2024. Retrieved 27 September 2024.
Support Why is this article still called incursion? It's NOT an incursion!!! Look up the definition of incursion! Words mean things! I say again - WORDS MEAN THINGS AND HAVE DEFINITIONS - THIS IS NOT AN INCURSION BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION! Why must every objective article about this war be bandwagoned by pro-Ukraine copers!??! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:A601:5553:B000:C74:E4B7:50DC:102 (talk) 01:54, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
  • Support definitely not an incursion. But I would second 'Scu ba' in that in addition to dropping the month it looks like we will have to drop the year as well. But we will think about this tomorrow. --Altenmann >talk 21:07, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Spawn the timeline section

I suggest to split the Timeline of the Ukrainian Kursk offensive and keep here only the summary of major developments, because the article became intractable due to WP:RECENTISM. By the way, what? Nothing happened after September 24? Or Wikipedians just got bored? --Altenmann >talk 18:58, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

The solution to the recentism in the timeline is to simply remove the non-essential content altogether rather than splitting off content which would eventually be deleted. Not much of note happened in Kursk since around 18 September. More of the same offensive actions by both sides in the same directions with little frontline changes. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 21:13, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

"Related events" section

No evidence is provided therse events are "related" besides being in the same time feame. The whole war is "related", because this invasion caused changes in plans and redistributions or reserves for both sides. Therefore (A) it must be removed from this, already heavily cluttered page and (B) the first two subsections belong to Attacks in Russia during the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the Belarusian section belongs to Belarusian involvement in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. --Altenmann >talk 18:53, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Removed the last two subsections. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 03:36, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

The War started...

...with the Ukrainian invasion of Russia, in August 2024... according to some local residents... as reported/repeated by France 24 on 25 September.[1] ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 21:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

So? Slatersteven (talk) 21:45, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
the war started in 2022. Why is special when Ukraine crosses Russia's border for a military operation when Russia's been doing it for the last two years? Scuba 02:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
@Scu ba The war started in 2014 according to the Ruso-Ukrainian war article. GreatLeader1945 TALK 08:15, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Rather pedantic, but okay, the invasion started in 2022. Scuba 13:51, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Is there a point? gidonb (talk) 12:06, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Just sharing. Yesterday France 24 (FTA channel, same as https://www.france24.com/en/live) repeated several times the reportage referenced above, live reporter adding a view of some Kursk oblast residents according to whom "the war started..."; according to Russian official media... the only available media for many locals ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 19:18, 26 September 2024 (UTC)
Please don't just share stuff, unless on your own user pages. This is an important page for the editorial process on the main page. Just sharing stuff clutters the page and slows down editorial processes. gidonb (talk) 15:15, 27 September 2024 (UTC)
I think it's relevant to say that "local residents said in their opinion that the war began today", as a reflection of the attitude of those residents. Zowayix001 (talk) 17:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
No. Local residents are not experts in politics and hardly they speak clearly. per WP:PRIMARY their words are invalid ref for wikipedia. It is quite possible they wanted to say for them the war started today, but that's again must come from secondary sources as a commentary about the perception of the war among the populace. --Altenmann >talk 21:03, 30 September 2024 (UTC)
Its also wp:undue. Slatersteven (talk) 08:27, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I remember watching this segment several times (didn't change the channel, the remote was missing); from the conversation between the presenter in a studio and the reporter (author of the reportage) it appeared that some of the locals believe the official media according to which the war started with the invasion of Ukraine (soon English shall/will be declared a foreign agent...?). ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 09:51, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

So? Slatersteven (talk) 14:44, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Every frontline has at least two sides (and (official) ideologies), including both/more sides would be NPOV, at least informational-ly? (PS! Currently listening to FREEДОМ...) ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 14:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
read WP:FALSEBALANCE This war started when Russia invaded Ukraine, we do not not a patently false counter claim. Slatersteven (talk) 15:11, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
so, had "they" had Internet in June 24 1914, the first german war would have been titled "July 1914 bullet"? ;-) ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 15:31, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
What does this have to do with anything? What edit do you want us to make? Slatersteven (talk) 15:32, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Title change. ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 15:34, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
We are having a move discussion above, we do not need another. Slatersteven (talk) 15:39, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
Also formally warning you against making an undiscussed move like you did yesterday. You might get cited for move-warring. Borgenland (talk) 16:56, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Any more warnings?!? ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 18:25, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

With pleasure: WP:NOTASOAPBOX. It is fun to chat, but it is a waste of editors' time. --Altenmann >talk 19:04, 1 October 2024 (UTC)
;-) ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 19:16, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Btw, by today Russia has issued 2 arrest and extradition warrants on two Rai News 24 journalists (for trespassing the border, with an intent to...).[2][3] ☆☆☆—PietadèTalk 17:30, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Exclusive: On the ground in Russian territory held by Ukrainian forces". france24.com. France 24. 25 September 2024. Retrieved 25 September 2024.
  2. ^ Battistini spiega il reportage: "Abbiamo raggiunto in un blindato la città conquistata da Kiev". Rai News 24, 7. X 2024
  3. ^ Esclusiva Tg1: l'inviata Battistini nel Kursk, sulle tracce dell'incursione ucraina in Russia. Rai News 24, 8. X 2024
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