Talk:Khalji dynasty/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2018

"The change is Khiljis are not turkic," Major RTI ridgeway in his book "Pathans" has called khiljis as Ghilzai Nation. The Khalj and Afghans have always been mentioned together and indispensably their place or origin and race was common. Abu Nasr Mohammad, son of Abdul Jabbar Utbi (1023 A.D.), in the conquests of Subuktagin writes as follows: "the Afghans and Khalj obeyed Subuktagin and reluctantly joined his forces." [1]Ibn-ul-Athir has also mentioned this event in the same manner. [2] [1] Tarikh-e Yamini, 26. [2] Al-Kamil 8/348, Ibn-ul-Athir writes in Al-Kamil:L Yaqub Layth conquered Khaljiya and Zabul.

Minorsky clearly writes that these Khaljies are the ancestors of the present Afghan Ghalji. Barthold and Haig have written the same in the Islamic Encyclopedia.[1] It can therefore be said that Khalji or Ghalji were related to the Hepthalites and Zabul rulers, since the Helthalites, (Hayatila of Arabs) ruled over Zabulistan. Their features struck on coins resemble the features of the Ghalji youth who live in this area and have high noses, almond eyes, bushy hair, and strong features. [1] Minorsky’s comments on Hudud-al-Alam, 348 FawadAliKhan11 (talk) 09:24, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done Major RTI Ridgeway's book is not WP:HISTRS-compliant: the books cited in the article are written by reputed historians. Tarikh-e Yamini etc. are primary sources. There are several other books that mention that the Ghaljis are of Turkic origin, and became "Afghans" at a later point -- that doesn't mean they were Pashtuns during the Khalji period. utcursch | talk 12:10, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

"A Comprehensive History of Medieval India" by Salma Ahmed Farooqui Pg 67, (is on Pearson, www.pearsoned.co.in/salmaahmedfarooqui), The origin of the Khiljis lack clarity, with some historians believing that they belonged to the Turkish stock while others attribute their origins to the Afghans. Zia Barani, the Indian historian (1357 A.D.) in his book Tarikh-e-Ferozshahi, has a special chapter where he says the king must be among the Turks but when Malik Jalaluddin Khalji ascended the Delhi throne he says: “the people found it difficult to tolerate a Khalji king.”[4] Since Khaljies were not Turks Indian historians also considered them to be Afghans.[5]

e. In Afghan literature the Khalji of India have been referred to as being Afghan Ghalji. Khushal Khan Khattak, the famous Pashto poet (died 1688 A.D.) in a long elegy enumerates the Afghan kings and considers Sultan Jalaluddin Khalji (1290-1295 A.D.) to be a Ghalji of Wilayat (Afghanistan). “Then Sultan Jalaluddin ascended the Delhi throne who was a Ghalji from Wilayat.”[6] f. Until the time of Babur, the founder of the Indian Mughal dynasty the Ghalji of present Ghazna have been mentioned as Afghan Khalji and not as Turks. Babur says: “In 1507 A.D. we had ridden out of Kabul with the intention of over-running the country of Afghan Khaljies, northeast of Ghazni and brought back with us one hundred thousand head of sheep and other things.”[11]

[4] Zia Barani’s Tarikh-e Ferozshahi, 173. Calcutta. [5] Tazkira-e Bahaduran-e Islam, 2/331. [6] Divan of Khushal Khan 669, Kandahar. [11] Tuzuk-e Babur 127, Bombay.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.123.59.224 (talk) 17:30, 21 March 2018 (UTC) 

First of all, the terms "Afghan" and "Pashtun" are not synonyms. Secondly, the article already explains, with more authoritative and reliable sources, how the Khaljis' ancestors lived in Afghanistan, and came to be wrongly regarded as non-Turkic by the older Turkic nobles of Delhi. utcursch | talk 00:14, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes the terms Afghan and Pashtun are not synonyms, however Pashtuns today are divided in three major groups, Afghans, Pashtun proper and Ghilzai (of turkish extract), The sources I quoted are as authoritative and reliable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 (talk • contribs) 03:58, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

What is your source for the statement that "Pashtuns today are divided in three major groups, Afghans, Pashtun proper and Ghilzai"? utcursch | talk 04:17, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

"Pathans" by Major RTI Ridgway, In this book Genealogical Tree of the Pathan Nation attached at end of book shows Afghans, Pasthun proper and Ghilzai/Khilji, All Tribes under each group and origins are mentioned. for example Durrani mentioned under Afghan, Afridi under Pashtun proper, Lodhis under Ghilzai/Khilji

Another book "Afghan despotism in India" by Iqtadar Hussain Siddiqui, can't find it at home to mention page number( but will update page number) quotes Khiljis, Lodhis and Surs as Ghilzai.

Jawaharlal Nehru "The Discovery of India" Pg 238 "The Afghans differed also from the more highly cultured and sophisticated Arabs and Persians.. One of their great rulers, Alauddin Khilji, himself married a Hindu lady and so did his son, Some of the rulers were racially Turks such as Qutbud-Din Aibak, the Sultana Razia and Iltutmish, but the nobility and army continued to be mainly Afghans." Nehru hence makes a distinction between Afghans and Turks and considered Khilji to be Afghan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 (talk • contribs) 10:06, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Major Ridgeway or Jawaharlal Nehru are not historians. Also, the article already mentions that the Khaljis were regarded as ethnic Afghans. There is a separate article on Ghiljis -- it mentions they most probably descended from the Khalaj people: just because the Ghiljis came to be regarded as ethnic Afghans over time doesn't mean that the Khalaj people were non-Turkic. utcursch | talk 17:03, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

I have quoted something all afghans and pashtoons and ghilzais know the three have different roots. Major Ridgeway's book was the main source for recruiting Afghans, pashtuns and ghilzais when the british ruled India. Khiljis they are "ethnic Afghans" along with "ethnic turkic", or vice versa. That is exactly what the Afghans or pashtuns consider ghilzais to be — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.123.63.32 (talk) 21:36, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Books by colonial officials are not acceptable sources for history of tribes, castes and clans: this has been discussed several times at WP:RSN. The article already states that the Khaljis were considered to be Afghans. "Ghilzais" are not same as Khaljis -- they have their own article. utcursch | talk 01:02, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

To utcursh. I think you should wipe out the "wrongly" here, as everybody disagrees. Because it doesnt make sence. only considered will fix the problem. And secondly you should mention it a turko afghan origin, and adding the khalji location (from where the name is derived) will help more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:E432:23EF:29A1:4913 (talk) 12:11, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

"Wrongly" is supported by more than one author, and their area of expertise is Delhi Sultanate. utcursch | talk 12:16, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

firstly about bakhtyar, you are simply imposing your version of history on others. secondly 90 percent of the sources doesnt say wrongly. It is wiki not some ones personal home. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:E432:23EF:29A1:4913 (talk) 12:21, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

It's not my version of the history: it's a claim supported by historians like Ashirbadi Lal Srivastava, Abraham Eraly, Peter Jackson and others. If you have more authoritative, scholarly sources that call these historians wrong, feel free to suggest them. Wikipedia mirrors and colonial government officers are not acceptable sources. utcursch | talk 13:45, 23 March 2018 (UT

The khalj are different from Turks in the below sources, (we'll leave who is afghan, pashtun or ghilzai for another discussion) Am quoting Minhaj Siraj, He says that the Khaljies live near Ghazni, Garmseer and Ghor, but has not said anything about these people being Turks. On the other hand, he clearly refers to other rulers of Turkish descent as Turks. Khalj, which has been altered to Khalakh by calligraphers, was a well-known word among geographers long before the compilation of Hudud-ul-Alam. Ibne Khurdadbeh (844-848 A.D.) also speaks about Khaljiya. He confirms that there is a difference between Khalj and says: “the winter dwelling of Turks of Kharlukh (Kharlikh) is near Taraz and nearby them lie the pastures of Khalj (Khaljiya).[2] [2] Al-Masalik wa al-Mamalik, 28.

The Khalj and Afghans have always been mentioned together and indispensably their place or origin and race was common. Abu Nasr Mohammad, son of Abdul Jabbar Utbi (1023 A.D.), in the conquests of Subuktagin writes as follows: "the Afghans and Khalj obeyed Subuktagin and reluctantly joined his forces."[1]

Ibn-ul-Athir has also mentioned this event in the same manner. [2] [1] Tarikh-e Yamini, 26. [2] Al-Kamil 8/348, Ibn-ul-Athir writes in Al-Kamil:L Yaqub Layth conquered Khaljiya and Zabul.

Mahmud Kashghari (1074 A.D.), who was of Turkish descent and a Turkologist says: The ghuz of Turkmans comprise 24 tribes, but two Khaljiya tribes resemble the Turks are not considered Turks.[1] This Turkish historian who has studied the Turks and even note their tribes, refrains from adding the name of Khalj with the Turks.[2]

[1] Divan Lughat-ul-Turk 3/307, Istanbul, 1915. [2] Divant Lughat-ul-Turk, photographic publication p. 4-41.

Fakhruddin Mubarak Shah, well known as Fakhr-e Mudabir and author of Adab-al-Harb and other famous books, writing on the History of India (1205 A.D.) says that the armies of Sultan Qutb-ud-Din comprised of Turks, Ghori, Khorasani, Khalji and Indian soldiers.[10] [10] Introduction to the History of Mubarak Shah, 33. London, 1927.

A manuscript on the miracles of Sultan Sakhi Sarwar[7] (known as Lakhdata died 1181 A.D. and buried in Shah Kot of Dera Ghazi Khan) is written in Persian whose author is unknown. In this book the author relates a story from Tarikh-e Ghazna by Abu Hamid-al-Zawali and quotes Hasan Saghani.[8] “Kabul Shah, Khingil, who according to Yaqubi lived about 779 A.D.[9] sent a poem in the Khaljiya language to the Loyak of Ghazni.” Analysis of this poem shows that it is ancient Pashto which is said to have been the language of Khaljiya. This means that the Khalji spoke Pashto, [7] For the biography of this saint refer to Khazinat-ul-Asfiya 2/248 and Ab-e Kawtbar by Shaikh Ikram p. 91 onwards. [8] Born in Lahore 1181, died 1252 A.D. [9] Tarikh-al-Yaqubi 2/131.

Minhaj Siraj’s statement is worth consideration in which he says: “Sultan Jalaluddin Khwarazm Shah and Malik Khan of Heart reached Ghaznayn and a large army of Turks, and rulers of Ghor, Tajik, Khalji and Ghori gathered at their service.”[10] Here Minhaj Siraj mentions the Turks and Khalj as two separate entities. Juwaini, in Tarikh-e Jahankusha also speaks about the presence of Khalji in the battle of Parwan and the defeat of the Genghis army.[11] [10] Tabaqat-e Nasiri 2/259. [11] Jahan Kusha of Juwayni 2/194. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 (talk • contribs) 18:31, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

That's copy-paste from "Khaljies are Afghan" by Afghan historian Abdul Hai Habibi -- hardly a neutral source. We already have citations from reputed non-Turkic, non-Afghan scholars, including more recent scholarship. utcursch | talk 18:41, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Just because Abdul Hai is afghan doesn't mean it is biased, rather answer his points raised by your sources — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 (talk • contribs) 18:49, 23 March 2018 (UTC) The Khilji Dynasty - Padma Mohan Kumar, freelance writer email: padma413@gmail.com

The Khiljis were the second dynasty to rule over Delhi. The fall of the Slave dynasty, which was the first ruling line of kings, was followed by the accession of Jalal ud din Firuz Khilji, the founder of the Khilji dynasty, to the throne of Delhi in 1290. Historical scholars describe this change as the Khilji revolution because it marked the end of Turkish domination. The Khiljis were Turko-Afghan in origin and the family owed its name ‘Khilji’ to an Afghan village or town known as ‘Qalat-e-Khilji’ or Fort of Khilji. They had originally settled in Afghanistan but later on they had made Delhi their home. Her sources: A Comprehensive History of India: Comprehensive history of medieval India By B.N. Puri, M.N. Das — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 (talk • contribs) 18:56, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

The article already mentions that the Khaljis were of Turkic origin and settled in Afghanistan (which is what "Turko-Afghan" implies). Your edit request was "Khiljis are not turkic", which is disputed by multiple scholarly sources. Abdul Hai Habibi is hardly a reliable source for a claim like this one, given his involvement in the Pata Khazana forgery. utcursch | talk 19:39, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

My request now "Khiljis are of Turkic origin and ethnic Afghans", Wikipedia says they are ethnic Turks and wrongly considered ethnic Afghans which is not the same as my request or "Turko-Afghan",

on Abdul Hai, we are debating his primary sources not what he has to say, (scroll up and see Tarikh-e Yamini, 26. [2] Al-Kamil 8/348, Ibn-ul-Athir writes in Al-Kamil:L Yaqub Layth conquered Khaljiya and Zabul.),

not to mention BN Puri and Salma Ahmed Siddiqui who I have quoted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 (talk • contribs) 08:00, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

The article states "wrongly" with two scholarly sources by authors whose area of expertise is Delhi Sultanate: Please find a source which disputes these scholars. The books edited by B. N. Puri and Salma Ahmed Siddiqui do not explicitly dispute this claim (not to mention that Delhi Sultanate is not the editors' area of expertise). For example, Salma Ahmed Siddiqui states in very next sentence: "The older nobility of the Delhi Sultanate did not recognize the Turkish origin of the Khiljis. Considering them to be low born Afghans...". utcursch | talk 15:24, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

My change I want is "Khiljis were turkish origin and ethnic Afghans" or "Khiljis were Turko Afghans origin"

Your reading the sources that disputes these scholars, Salma Ahmed Siddiqui Pg 67, A comprehensive History of Medieval India "The origin of the Khiljis lacks clarity, with some historians believing that they belonged to Turkish stock while others attribute their origin to the Afghans. The older nobility did not recognize the Turkish origin of the Khiljis. Considering them to be low born Afghan, they even desisted from helping to them come to power. " This contradicts both your sources, she hasn't given an origin to the khiljis, your sources call them ethnic Turkish, and, she didn't use word wrongly considered Afghans.

Wiki is disregarding these sources and  calling them only ethnic Turkish and wrongly considered Afghans. 

On page 68, Salma Ahmed Siddiqui " By the end of his rule Jalaluddin had sowed the seeds for two major changes that mitigated the harsher aspects of Balban's rule. The first being the Afghan descent of the Khiljis, which was used to harness the support of the Afghan nobles; and the second was giving higher offices to Indian Muslims who had so far been ignored by Balban because of his belief that right to govern was vested with Turks alone."

The change "Khiljis are Turko Afghan in origin", is also acceptable by me.

The Khilji Dynasty

- Padma Mohan Kumar, freelance writer email: padma413@gmail.com

The Khiljis were the second dynasty to rule over Delhi. The fall of the Slave dynasty, which was the first ruling line of kings, was followed by the accession of Jalal ud din Firuz Khilji, the founder of the Khilji dynasty, to the throne of Delhi in 1290. Historical scholars describe this change as the Khilji revolution because it marked the end of Turkish domination. The Khiljis were Turko-Afghan in origin and the family owed its name ‘Khilji’ to an Afghan village or town known as ‘Qalat-e-Khilji’ or Fort of Khilji. They had originally settled in Afghanistan but later on they had made Delhi their home. Her sources: A Comprehensive History of India: Comprehensive history of medieval India By B.N. Puri, M.N. Das BN Puri and M.N. Das, — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 (talk • contribs) 16:01, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

You're repeating the same point again and again: the article already states that they were of Turkic origin, and from Afghanistan -- saying that they were "Turko-Afghan" is just repetition, without specifying what exactly the term means. I'll reply if you come up with something actually disputes the sources cited in the article. utcursch | talk 16:12, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

No the article says they are ethnic Turks, not Turkic origin, the article never says from Afghanistan, and no I am not repeating, your not able to answer why you've said they are wrongly considered Afghans, You also need to dispute the primary sources I have quoted and BN Puri and Salma Ahmad, Turko Afghan means they are from Afghanistan, considered Afghan not ethnic Turkish only turkic origin. You havn't replied why your sources are correct and these are wrong. Wikipedia should have said they are Turkic origin, and distinct from the turks, and were from Afghanistan, (not wrongly considered Afghan), the above sources should suffice this talk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 (talk • contribs) 20:07, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Sure, we can change it to Turkic origin, if that helps. But here's a direct quote from the Abraham Eraly reference cited in the article: "Khaljis were actually ethnic Turks" (i.e. Turkic peoples). That they were wrongly considered Afghans is not my assertion -- it is supported by two references in the article.

Please find a source for your claim that "Turko Afghan means they are from Afghanistan, considered Afghan not ethnic Turkish only turkic origin". B. N. Puri and Salma Ahmed Farooqui do not explicitly support that claim. utcursch | talk 20:36, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

"Afghan Despotism in India" by Iqtidar Husain Siddiqui The Preface says he is Head of History Department, Aligarh Muslim University, Aligarh, August 4, 1969. Pg v "The statement of the contemporary writers indicates that it included the Turks, Ghorids, Khurasanis, Khaljis, and the Indians" In footnote Fakhr Muddabir p33, Pg vi Introduction, "The strenghth of the Khaljis whom the Turks considered inferior to them, had considerably increased. The non turks nobles also aligned with them against the Turks who wanted to oust them from the nobility and monopolise key posts and territories. As a result the Turkish rule was overthrown and throne passed on to Khiljis." Salma Ahmed Siddiqui Pg 67, A comprehensive History of Medieval India "The origin of the Khiljis lacks clarity, with some historians believing that they belonged to Turkish stock while others attribute their origin to the Afghans. The older nobility did not recognize the Turkish origin of the Khiljis. Considering them to be low born Afghan, they even desisted from helping to them come to power. " On page 68, Salma Ahmed Siddiqui " By the end of his rule Jalaluddin had sowed the seeds for two major changes that mitigated the harsher aspects of Balban's rule. The first being the Afghan descent of the Khiljis, which was used to harness the support of the Afghan nobles; and the second was giving higher offices to Indian Muslims who had so far been ignored by Balban because of his belief that right to govern was vested with Turks alone." she refers "afghan descent" of the khiljis in above paragraph, You've already made changes to this article I just saw. abraham early is right to say had intermarried with local afghans, but term "wrongly" considered Afghans still there.

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by FawadAliKhan11 (talk • contribs) 09:36, 25 March 2018 (UTC) 

The sources that you mentioned above B.N. puri and Salama Ahmed Farooqi explicitly mentions that they were/considered Afghan. And both are very reliable sources as their main work is on medieval india "delhi sultanate" B.N.puri https://books.google.no/books?id=Y7fUHMEDAyEC&pg=PA35&lpg=PA35&dq=B.+N.+Puri+khilji%27&source=bl&ots=xsioDN67S3&sig=HdBfCBTnt9mExqwdx7ps1tWyC94&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyxIyTiLjaAhXEkSwKHaM3CyMQ6AEIOzAD#v=onepage&q=B.%20N.%20Puri%20khilji'&f=false

and Salma farooqi.https://books.google.no/books?id=sxhAtCflwOMC&pg=PA65&hl=no&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

".Here is another two very important and nuetral sources. In al- hind it clearly mentions that khalaj were distint from turks and later "before dynesty" emerged as ghilzai afghans.https://books.google.no/books?id=uQ7k2vQlYxEC&pg=PA116&dq=ghaznavid+afghans+khalaj&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBlqu6irjaAhXGKywKHeMuDCAQ6AEIJzAA#v=onepage&q=ghaznavid%20afghans%20khalaj&f=false And here another main source which is explicitly focused "again" on delhi sultanate. (The Delhi Sultanate: A Political and Military History), clearly mentions that khiljis assimilated to neighbering afghans while still confined in suleiman mountains. https://books.google.no/books?id=lt2tqOpVRKgC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=ghurid+afghans&source=bl&ots=O4hR2nTKs0&sig=jGAD28j0iq3G83FVTELZwep_gbM&hl=no&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjPt9L5wKvaAhXHO5oKHZGmDWwQ6AEIWjAL#v=onepage&q=ghurid%20afghans&f=false. To the editers- I think the main problem is the tone of the article (not of specific author). For ex- the term 'wrongly" even contradict the article itslef, which clearly mentions that they were considered afghans. And also emphasizing on how one particuler auther is wrong while tones of other reliable sources are at hand. Hope constructive changes are made so we can all agree on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.90.199.161 (talk) 20:57, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Khilji people

I have removed the generic section on Khilji people, as it was offtopic, unrelated and undue to Khilji dynasty. It was tagged quite a while ago. The section may better belong in Turkestan or Ghilji or a new article. Beren Dersi (talk) 22:57, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Beren Dersi

I did not understand what is the main name of this ethnicity. Which ones Ghilji, Ghilzai , Ghalzai, Gharzai, Khaljī , Khiljī. --Shxahxh (talk) 14:14, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Afghan origin

Khaljis "POV and fringe". First of, please explain what this actually means. I only added one line from a book and quoted it and yet is somehow counts as expressing my point of view.The book clearly states: "At the same time Jalaludin, who was Ariz-i-Mamalik , had gone to Baharpur , attended by a body of his relations and friends. Here he held a muster and inspection of the forces. He came of a race different from that of the Turks ; so he had no confidence in them , nor would the Turks own him as belonging to the member of his friends" Mr.Elliott's History of India (Vol.III page 34)" Hayras123 (talk) 00:54, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

@Hayras123: Ignoring the fact that Elliott's History of India is an obsolete source (see WP:HISTRS), the book includes translations of various chronicles. The "a race different from that of the Turks" bit is from the Tughluq-era Delhi chronicler Barani, who is not a reliable source. As several modern historians have explained (see Jalaluddin Firuz Khalji#Early life), the Khaljis were of Turkic origin, and their ancestors had lived in present-day Afghanistan for quite some time, because of which they were wrongly regarded as non-Turkic when they came to Delhi. utcursch | talk 15:02, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

@Utcursch:

Unless restricted by another policy, primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation"

Ignoring the fact that the Ghilzai tribe of Afghans are descendants of Khaljis, there are many other reputable, non-biased sources that clearly state that Khaljis were not of Turk origin. In fact, it is clearly stated that they are of Afghan origin Hayras123 (talk) 22:11, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

References

Barani is not one of those sources that are acceptable as primary sources: plenty of modern historians have shown him to be unreliable. As already mentioned, Ghulam Sarwar Khan Niazi is a Pashtun, and so is Abdul Hai Habibi. Independent historians who do not have a conflict of interest on the topic disagree with them. utcursch | talk 23:58, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

So just because Niazi and Habibi are Pashtuns, disqualifies them for giving their assertion on the topic? That's not very noble of you but shows you are biased. For your information Habibi was a historian himself and much of his work is deemed reliable in the western world. Also, the sources from Minhaj and Nasiri deny that they had any Turkic roots and so do most of the sources in the article. You're basically POV pushing. Akmal94 (talk) 20:42, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

Khalaj

Please do not make Khalaj or Khalaji (Ghalzai) They were Turkic not Ghalzai
لطفا قبیلهٔ غَلزایی را خَلَج و یا خَلَجی نسازید --Shxahxh (talk) 16:03, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

I undid your removal of the alternate spelling "Khilji" -- it is used in several sources. That said, the article does have a bit of POV-pushing regarding the dynasty's ethnicity because of some recent edits -- I'll try to fix these when I have some time. utcursch | talk 02:08, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

To Utcursch. You said no description of origins in opening. It should be only in origin section, so remove the khalaj people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:D5B8:F201:6FDA:73B9 (talk) 17:29, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed. Shxahxh's edits are ethnic POV-pushing. utcursch | talk 17:46, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

utcursch

But (Khalaji) should not be deleted. Brother --Shxahxh (talk) 12:47, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

FawadAliKhan11, your edits are POV-pushing in the other direction. Please do not pass off contested opinion as facts -- the discussion of the dynasty's ethnicity should be limited to the Origin section. Also, your duplication of content is unexplained. utcursch | talk 13:20, 12 June 2018 (UTC)

To Utcursch. As you stated about sources, here is i think "The most important source" we simply cannot look over it. It is #Tarikh Yamini" which is written way before khalji dynesty. In that khiljis are (EXPLICITLY) considered Afghan. Now i dont request taking of tarko afghan to afghan. All i am saying is the article needs to be a little less biased, like deleting (wrongly) etc. Thank you. https://archive.org/details/kitabiyaminihis00reyngoog — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:E411:A483:8D3E:92F6 (talk) 18:21, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

See WP:HISTRS and WP:RS to see what kind of sources are acceptable as citations. A primary source like Tarikh Yamini is not an acceptable source. However, its analysis by a modern historian can be an acceptable source.

Please provide the page number of the linked book where the "khiljis are (EXPLICITLY) considered Afghan" -- maybe we can find a scholarly work that analyzes this evidence. utcursch | talk 18:38, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Here in page number 336 the author completely differentiates between khiljis and turks.

https://archive.org/details/kitabiyaminihis00reyngoog/page/n375 and in the following page (467) he mentions the same geography of khiljis but call them afghan. https://archive.org/details/kitabiyaminihis00reyngoog/page/n505

And here i have got an important scholarly source which is in persian (iran).

http://setarehi.blogfa.com/post/9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:20:CE72:B25C:1CD2 (talk) 18:38, 6 October 2018 (UTC)

All the sources point out to one evidence, which is they were considered Afghan during dynesty period. Here is another scholarly source with the same outcome. https://8am.af/x8am/1396/12/02/afghan-word-and-reflection-on-afghan-identity-events-part-i/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:5D6C:63C8:FCBD:8BAB (talk) 22:08, 18 April 2019 (UTC)

Turkic and Afghan

@User:W28394 Clearly nearly all the sources mention them as Turks who had migrated to Afghanistan and adopted some customs of Local Pashtuns. This is for some users who want to make them Pashtun when they are Turkic. Pashtunization involves change of Language but there is no such evidence of Pashto Speaking Khalaj. They Spoke Persian and Khalaj Turkic language.

Statements from the references used within the article:

• His ancestors, after having migrated from Turkistan, had lived for over 200 years in the Helmand valley and Lamghan, parts of Afghanistan called Garmasir or the hot region, and had adopted Afghan manners and customs. They were, therefore, wrongly looked upon as Afghans by the Turkish nobles in India as they had intermarried with local Afghans and adopted their customs and manners. They were looked down as non Turks by Turks
• The prejudice of Turks was however misplaced in this case, for Khaljis were actually ethnic Turks. But they had settled in Afghanistan long before the Turkish rule was established there, and had over the centuries adopted Afghan customs and practices, intermarried with the local people, and were therefore looked down on as non-Turks by pure-bred Turks.
• The Khaljis were a Turkish tribe but having been long domiciled in Afghanistan, had adopted some Afghan habits and customs. They were treated as Afghans in Delhi Court. They were regarded as barbarians.
• This dynasty, like the previous Slave dynasty, was of Turkish origin, though the Khaljī tribe had long been settled in Afghanistan. Its three kings were noted for their faithlessness, their ferocity, and their penetration to the South of India

Kami2018 (talk) 05:40, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

That is why they are called TURK O AFGHAN. So why it is changed to only turkic in the opening? As mentioned before and every body agrees they might be a turkic tribe that totally adopted afghan culture and transformed in to pashtun ghilzai tribe. Infact i have (last year) wrote the source from a book dating back to ghaznavid times where they are mentioned. It is in talk section. So change it to turko afghan.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:D4E4:84A0:2250:C80C (talk) 09:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC) 

Hi, i am still waiting for changes and your answer (others are also welcome to join in). It is over 3 years that i am involved in this article , so yes i have done my home work (full research). I think we should all agree again to restore the article to its previous version (which you have also edited) but with some minor changes. Agree?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4643:C8EC:0:9803:93DA:7688:1C45 (talk) 21:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC) 

Kami2018 It is clearly you who is POV pushing and forcing a Turkic origin on this empire when other historians and writers (Minhaj, Habib, Habibi, Barani etc) have all favoured an Afghan origin. You're also ignoring how other Turks opposed the rise of Alauddin Khiji on the Delhi throne because he was not Turkic. And there is no such thing as "Pashtunizaiton" the Pashtuns are a tribal people and don't assimilate non-Pashtuns into their community. We have Uzbeks, Tajiks and other non-Afghans living in Pashtun areas yet are not Pashtunized yet somehow you think the Khiljis were. Akmal94 (talk) 09:08, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

HI AGAIN!

You are still not writing it to its original version. After all researched and said that is the ONLY way. If not than me and others have to turn to other contributors. Hope you will take notice this time and do the right (moral) thing. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A01:799:5E0:6000:E166:1231:E0BD:2CBC (talk) 10:10, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

@User:Kami2018

There is no doubt about the origin of the Khaljis as a Turkic group. However, this article is about the Khalji DYNASTY of DELHI SULTANATE and NOT Khaljis as a whole. So lets get that clear first. Secondly, there is also NO DOUBT that Khaljis over centuries became Pashtunized and today, they are known purely as Pashtuns.

Having established two undisputed facts, lets move on to the dispute at hand. The question here is, were the Khaljis Pashtunized enough by the time Jalaluddin Khalji took the throne? Or were the Khaljis of Delhi Sultanate purely Turkic, like you imply, when they took the throne? The simple answer is NO. There is no doubt over the lineage of proper turkic dynasties like the Mamluks who were the rulers of the Delhi Sultante prior to the Khaljis. The Mamluk turks the Khaljis served and ruled later on also did not consider them turks. Why? Because they were Pashtunized by the time and were more Pashtun than their ancestors, who were more Turkic. The historians you quote rightly mention the Khaljis being of Turkic stock. However, they are also referring to the ANCESTORS of the Khaljis of Delhi. Not Khaljis themselves. They very clearly mention the Khaljis having been Pashtunized to a great extent due to which they were not looked upon as Turkic by Turk proper. Therefore, calling the Khalhi Dynasty pure turk instead of Turkic-Pashtun is historically ignorant. Even Lodi Dynasty and Hotaki Dynasty was ruled by Khalji Pashtuns and are rightly called Afghan/Pashtun Dynasties because they had entirely Pashtunized by then. Would you change their history because their ancestors were Turkic?

Also, I do not know if you are genuinely ignorant about Khalji/Ghilji/Ghilzai Pashtuns being the largest Pashtun confederacy today or whether you chose to ignore that fact? The ancestors of Khalji/Ghilji/Ghilzai Pashtuns were of Turkic stock 1200 to a 1000 years ago but were Pashtunized and are entirely Pashtun today, not turkic. The same goes for Lodis and Hotaki dynasties (both called Afghan/Pashtun dynasties) and to a great extent, to the Khalji dynasty (who were Pashtunized enough to be rejected as Turks by the Turkic nobility). This is a non issue now. I will be keeping an eye on this article and all your edits will be reverted to the historically more accurate version.

W28394 (talk) 16:26, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Clearly all the sources mention them as Turkic settled in afghanistan. I have reported your edit to the admin and i think you should read the references and then perform constructive edits. Once again: Statements from the references used within the article:

• His ancestors, after having migrated from Turkistan, had lived for over 200 years in the Helmand valley and Lamghan, parts of Afghanistan called Garmasir or the hot region, and had adopted Afghan manners and customs. They were, therefore, wrongly looked upon as Afghans by the Turkish nobles in India as they had intermarried with local Afghans and adopted their customs and manners. They were looked down as non Turks by Turks
• The prejudice of Turks was however misplaced in this case, for Khaljis were actually ethnic Turks. But they had settled in Afghanistan long before the Turkish rule was established there, and had over the centuries adopted Afghan customs and practices, intermarried with the local people, and were therefore looked down on as non-Turks by pure-bred Turks.
• The Khaljis were a Turkish tribe but having been long domiciled in Afghanistan, had adopted some Afghan habits and customs. They were treated as Afghans in Delhi Court. They were regarded as barbarians.
• This dynasty, like the previous Slave dynasty, was of Turkish origin, though the Khaljī tribe had long been settled in Afghanistan. Its three kings were noted for their faithlessness, their ferocity, and their penetration to the South of India

Thankyou Kami2018 (talk) 02:13, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

@User:Kami2018 Once again, you are very arrogantly wrong.

1) You are confusing ethnicity with genetics/ancestry when ethnicity is much more than that. An ethnicity is the state of belonging to a social group that has a common national or cultural tradition. It is not limited to genetics or ancestry.

2) This article is about the Khalji dynasty of Delhi. NOT the Khalaj people who were the ancestors of the Khalji Dynasty.

3) Like I said in my explanation earlier, Khaljis without a doubt descended from a Turkic tribe BUT were adopted into the Pashtun/Afghan ethnicity about a thousand years ago. BEFORE the Khalji Dynasty took the throne in Delhi. You ASSUME that due to Khaljis being descendants of the Khalaj people, they remained Turkic forever. Which is extremely ignorant given the fact that;

4) Pashtuns are NOT a homologous group of people. Pashtuns have historically descended from different groups of people. From the hephthalites to the khaljis. Today, the Khaljis/Ghilzais are the largest tribal confederacy among the Pashtun ethnicity and are nowhere to be found among the Turkic people. Some popular Khaljis today are/were Ashraf Ghani (President of Afghanitsan) and Mullah Omar (Ex Taliban Chief), they are referred to as Pashtuns, not Turks.

5) The main question here is whether the Khaljis of the DELHI SULTANATE were Pashtunized by the time they ascended the throne and the obvious answer is YES.

6) Like the sources state, "They were looked upon as Afghans by the Turkish nobles in India as they had intermarried with local Afghans and adopted their customs and manners". 'Wrongly' does not matter in this context as we have already established the above points about the identity of the Khalaj people, who were the ancestors of the Khalji Dynasty, and the identity of the Khalji Dynasty itself.

7) Other sources reestablish the FACT that the Khalji Dynasty of Delhi were more Afghan/Pashtun than their ancestors, the Khalaj, and that they had adopted the Afghan/Pashtun ethnicity. "The Khaljis had over the centuries adopted Afghan customs and practices, intermarried with the local people, and were therefore looked down on as non-Turks by pure-bred Turks" and "The Khaljis were a Turkic tribe but having been long domiciled in Afghanistan, had adopted some Afghan habits and customs. They were treated as Afghans in Delhi Court. They were regarded as barbarians"

8) Going by all the above statements, you will have to completely lack comprehension skills to NOT see that the Khalji Dynasty was NOT a Turkic dynasty but a Pashtun/Afghan dynasty of Turkic descent. If you have any doubt, refer to point 1 again. Thanks.

Also, going by your talk-page, you are involved in various instances of vandalism and enforcing your opinion on other articles as well for which you have been warned numerous times. So kindly spare me the "warning".

W28394 (talk) 10:51, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

You should change Pashtun to Afghan (ethnonym) or Afghan as that’s the historic name for Pashtuns and what every source is referring to when talking about a connection towards Pashtuns , they use the word Afghan not Pashtun Xerxes931 (talk) 14:32, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

about my edits

Kansas Bear Firstly khalaj people still live in Iran and they speak turkic so they are not "initially" turkic. Secondly someone has vandalized the origin part, for example I don't see any source saying anything like that: "They were already treated entirely as Afghans by the Turkic nobles of the Delhi Sultanate during the reign of the Khalji Sultanate." The source says They were "wrongly" looked upon as Afghans by the Turkish nobles in India as they had intermarried with local Afghans and adopted their customs and manners. I wrote that part back with more accurate sentences, according to the sources.

Might I suggest creating an account and not editing as an IP? Also, signing your posts is also quite helpful.

Actually the sentence is;

• "The Khalaj were from the very beginning going through a process of assimilation into the Pashtun tribal system, during their reign in India they were already treated entirely as Afghans by the Turkic nobles of the Delhi Sultanate."

Which is supported by Eraly source which states, "The prejudice of Turks was however misplaced in this case, for Khaljis were actually ethnic Turks. But they had settled in Afghanistan long before the Turkish rule was established there, and had over the centuries adopted Afghan customs and practices, intermarried with the local people, and were therefore looked down on as non-Turks by pure-bred Turks.";AND, Chaurasia;"The Khaljis were a Turkish tribe but having been long domiciled in Afghanistan, had adopted some Afghan habits and customs. They were treated as Afghans in Delhi Court. They were regarded as barbarians. The Turkish nobles had opposed the ascent of Jalal-ud-din to the throne of Delhi."

• "I don't see any source saying anything like that: "They were already treated entirely as Afghans by the Turkic nobles of the Delhi Sultanate during the reign of the Khalji Sultanate.""

The Chaurasia source states that Turkic nobles had opposed the ascent of Jalal-ud-din Khalji, which is poorly worded as "They were already treated entirely as Afghans".

That being said, I have read your revision;

• "the Turkish nobles wrongly looked upon them as Afghan.."

and on the conditions that you 1)change the word "Turkish" to "Turkic", 2)you register under a named account, and 3)get the consent from @HistoryofIran:(since they reverted you on 30 August), I will agree to your version. --Kansas Bear (talk) 21:03, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Ngl, I don't even know what the original and correct revision is anymore. This article has been a theater of edit warring (mainly by IPs) regarding that topic so much that I just gave up. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:06, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Social stadiues

Main points about khilji dynesty — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.107.141.245 (talk) 11:33, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Editors reverting my edits

I see that in the original section they point to Alauddin Khalji sister being married to Indian. And one of the sources claim they were Indian I have noticed that this page has turned to a propaganda site. As well as when I provide facts with accurate citations which are all from Oxford, Cambridge University and Unesco it gets reverted for no reason. Afghan.Records (talk) 21:49, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

"Indianized"

While the sources do seem to point toward such, there are numerous other sources that point to them being of just Turco-Afghan origin. Which is why I am fine with you putting the "Indianized" mention in its origins, where other sources point to them being "Indianized". It would not be appropriate to mention it in the lead (ie where it says they are turco-afghan), but rather in its origins section as another view upon it. @Mydust

You could also try to reach consensus with some of the past editors of the page on whether you believe it should be included it in the lead.

For that matter, if there is a section for the Delhi Sultanate page itself for it, you can also add it there, but rather not in the lead unless a consensus is established as was done before. Noorullah (talk) 02:44, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I too disagree with using "Indianized" in the lead, because it seems to give precedence (and undue weight) to cultural influences, and the exchange of cultural traits with time, over the fundamental defining characteristics, ethnical and cultural, of the subject of the article. Otherwise, we could very well use the lead to present India as a "Turkified" country or "Mongolified" country, the Visigoths as a "Romanified" people, Japan as a "Westernized Asian" country, the USA as an "Anglified" nation, and Germany as an Americanized European country. "Indianized" also sounds like denialism and an attempt at cultural reappropriation, as if India was really the conqueror here, which is was not, even though the invader adopted cultural traits of the invaded country, which is a universal and rather unremarkable and automatical occurrence. We sometimes do use "Indianized" to refer to the states of South-east Asia (such as the Shailendra dynasty), which were indeed based in very large part on Indian cultural influx. Cultural influences, which are always mutiple and both ways, are best discussed in the body of the article, and such sweeping adjectives should only be used to the extent that reliable sources also use them, with the same prominence. पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 06:11, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

I want to point out that Jaswant L Mehta is a not a reliable source, he’s not even a historian. Satish Chandra already gives a lengthy explanation as to why this is wrong, see talk page of “Mongol invasions of India”. I’d say that part of the origins section should be removed. Someguywhosbored (talk) 17:29, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

J.L. Mehta, M.A., Ph.D., Reader in History, Punjab University. J.L. Mehta appears to be a reliable source.--Kansas Bear (talk) 00:40, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

You’re probably 100% correct. It appears that I may have made a mistake while researching this topic. Nonetheless, I’m not sure if I’m comfortable with the way “indo Muslim nobility” is being framed. It appears satash Chandra had already known of this view and wrote a lengthy explanation as to why this is wrong.

“It has been suggested that with the rise of the Khaljis, and the end of Turkish monopoly of high offices, an "integrated Indo-Muslim state" emerged in India, i.e., one in which different sections of the Muslims, including Indian Muslims, were admitted to the nobility, and high offices filled on the basis of efficiency and the pre-dilections of individual rulers, rather than on the basis of their ethnic origins. Sufficient research work has not been done to prove or effectively

disprove the point. We do, however, know that the ruling classes and the rulers in India strongly believed in the principle of superiority of blood so that only those who could establish their links with 'respected' families, whether in the secular or the religious fields, were entitled to high offices in government. The earliest Muslim political thinker in India, Fakr-i-Mudabbir, who wrote during the reign of Iltutmish, says:

"Posts of diwan, shagird and muharrir (revenue posts) should be given only to ahl-i-qalam (the educated sections) and whose ancestors had served rulers and amirs."

Ziauddin Barani who wrote his political tract, Fatawa-i-Jahandari, while in prison during the early years of Firuz Tughlaq, echoes the same views. He says that at the time of creation, some minds were inspired with the art of letters and of writing, others with horsemanship, and yet others in the weaving, stich- craft, carpentry, hair-cutting and tanning. Thus, men should practice only those crafts and professions "for which men have been inspired (and) are practised by them". He goes on to say, "Even if a man of base or low birth is adorned with a hundred merits, he will not be able to organise and administer the country according to expectations, or be worthy of leadership or political trust."

Barani was, apparently, voicing the prejudices of the ruling sections. But these views had a definite bearing on the character of the state. The state remained the exclusive preserve of the so-called "respectable" classes. The only ruler who tried to breach this policy was Muhammad bin Tughlaq who appointed a number of persons, both Hindus and Muslims, from the so-called low classes on the basis of their efficiency. But there was a strong reaction against this from the established ruling classes. Under Firuz Tughlaq, we find no reference to the appointment of such people, either Hindus or Muslims.

Thus, in a highly fragmented society it is hardly possible to speak of an "integrated" Indo-Muslim state. The position of converted India Muslims from the lower classes hardly changed. The rise of a converted Tailang Brahman, Khan-i-Jahan Maqbul, to the position of wazir under Firuz Tughlaq, or of an Ain-ul- Mulk, a Hindustani, who was governor of Awadh under Muhammad Tughlaq and later was Firuz's mushrif-i-mamlik (auditor-general), should not be interpreted to mean that Indian converts from the upper castes had now become a dominant element in the nobility. Muhammad Tughlaq's induction of a large number of foreigners in the nobility, calling them 'aizza' is an index to the continued preference of foreigners over Indians. It was one of these nobles who later set up the Bahmani kingdom in the Deccan, and another in Gujarat.”

pg 268. Here’s the source. https://knowledgevalley2017.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Satish-Chandra.pdf

Judging from all this, what do you think should be done? Someguywhosbored (talk) 01:18, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Indo muslim nobility?

I wanted to discuss this because it seems that the mentions of an “indo muslim” nobility/state still remains in this article, and it’s even in the lead. I personally believe it should be removed but I would also like the opinions of others on this. Satish Chandra had written about this view before where he extensively explains why it’s wrong, I’ll cite the full quote.

“It has been suggested that with the rise of the Khaljis, and the end of Turkish monopoly of high offices, an "integrated Indo-Muslim state" emerged in India, i.e., one in which different sections of the Muslims, including Indian Muslims, were admitted to the nobility, and high offices filled on the basis of efficiency and the pre-dilections of individual rulers, rather than on the basis of their ethnic origins. Sufficient research work has not been done to prove or effectively disprove the point. We do, however, know that the ruling classes and the rulers in India strongly believed in the principle of superiority of blood so that only those who could establish their links with 'respected' families, whether in the secular or the religious fields, were entitled to high offices in government. The earliest Muslim political thinker in India, Fakr-i-Mudabbir, who wrote during the reign of Iltutmish, says: "Posts of diwan, shagird and muharrir (revenue posts) should be given only to ahl-i-qalam (the educated sections) and whose ancestors had served rulers and amirs." Ziauddin Barani who wrote his political tract, Fatawa-i-Jahandari, while in prison during the early years of Firuz Tughlaq, echoes the same views. He says that at the time of creation, some minds were inspired with the art of letters and of writing, others with horsemanship, and yet others in the weaving, stich- craft, carpentry, hair-cutting and tanning. Thus, men should practice only those crafts and professions "for which men have been inspired (and) are practised by them". He goes on to say, "Even if a man of base or low birth is adorned with a hundred merits, he will not be able to organise and administer the country according to expectations, or be worthy of leadership or political trust." Barani was, apparently, voicing the prejudices of the ruling sections. But these views had a definite bearing on the character of the state. The state remained the exclusive preserve of the so-called "respectable" classes. The only ruler who tried to breach this policy was Muhammad bin Tughlaq who appointed a number of persons, both Hindus and Muslims, from the so-called low classes on the basis of their efficiency. But there was a strong reaction against this from the established ruling classes. Under Firuz Tughlaq, we find no reference to the appointment of such people, either Hindus or Muslims. Thus, in a highly fragmented society it is hardly possible to speak of an "integrated" Indo-Muslim state. The position of converted India Muslims from the lower classes hardly changed. The rise of a converted Tailang Brahman, Khan-i-Jahan Maqbul, to the position of wazir under Firuz Tughlaq, or of an Ain-ul- Mulk, a Hindustani, who was governor of Awadh under Muhammad Tughlaq and later was Firuz's mushrif-i-mamlik (auditor-general), should not be interpreted to mean that Indian converts from the upper castes had now become a dominant element in the nobility. Muhammad Tughlaq's induction of a large number of foreigners in the nobility, calling them 'aizza' is an index to the continued preference of foreigners over Indians. It was one of these nobles who later set up the Bahmani kingdom in the Deccan, and another in Gujarat.” pg 268. Here’s the source. https://knowledgevalley2017.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/Satish-Chandra.pdf

he’s a far more authoritative source than any of the other citations listed under “indo muslim nobility”, and he cites primary sources as well. It is for all these reasons, that I decided to remove this part of the article.

@Noorullah21 @पाटलिपुत्र Someguywhosbored (talk) 03:02, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• Someguywhosbored, if you need to make such big changes, and you get reverted, and you post on the talk page, it's probably NOT a good idea to revert even while you are waiting on editors' involvement. See WP:BRD. In addition, I can't follow your argument at all, in part because the huge quote is kind of distracting, and I'm wondering if posting that link isn't a copyright violation (Diannaa?) But even if it were clear to me what you are saying, there's the matter of you removing two sources, including this one, which strikes me as authoritative. Drmies (talk) 15:02, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
  • I understand your concerns so I’ll try to respond as respectfully as possible. I posted on the talk page before I made any changes to the page and before I was reverted. Nonetheless I wanted to address some of the points you mentioned.
    You stated that you couldn’t follow the argument. I understand that it’s a large quote, I wanted to show Satish Chandra’s full detailed opinion on this, but I can narrow down the most important quote of his which proves what I was trying to convey. “Thus, in a highly fragmented society it is hardly possible to speak of an "integrated" Indo-Muslim state” pg 268. The full quote will give you more of the story but it’s clear that Satish Chandra was trying to disprove the notion that there was an integrated indo Muslim state/nobility within the Delhi sultanate after the rise of the khaljis.
    The user who edited in the John S Bowman source greatly misinterpreted/misconstrued what it had written. Here’s a quote of the exact sentence I removed.
    “it came to power through a revolution that marked the transfer of power from the monopoly of Turkic nobles to an Indo-Muslim nobility” Now I’ll cite Bowmans quote.
    “Khalji sultans create an indo islamic state and broaden their power base by including non Turks and Indian Muslims among government officials”.
    Clearly these two quotes don’t mean the same thing. Bowman’s source does not at all imply that the nobility was monopolized by the presence of Indian muslims. He merely mentions that the khaljis broadened their power base by including non Turks and Indian muslims among government officials. Bowman didn’t imply or state that power transferred to an Indian Muslim nobility. And no where does he mention any monopoly of power held by them within the nobility. So again, his source was misconstrued by the user that edited it in.
    Moving on, the reason why I cited satish chandra is because he is far more authoritative than any of the sources listed under “Indo muslim nobility” anyway. His main area of specialization was medieval Indian history, which is precisely the period that the khaljis found themselves in. Bowman has a B.A in English literature, and while he has written on history, he’s not a specialist of this specific period and this specific region. Satish chandra as I mentioned is far more authoritative. Never mind the fact that bowman’s writings don’t at all support the assertion made in the part of the article I deleted. As for copyright issues, If there is a mistake there on my end, anyone can shoot me a heads up and I’ll try to fix it. I hope that answers all your concerns. Someguywhosbored (talk) 17:17, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
    • That's better, thanks. I am not a content expert: I did not revert you because I disagreed with the content. As for the talk page--if you had mentioned that in your edit summary, I likely wouldn't have reverted. I don't mind assessing Bowman vs. Chandra, but really this is a matter (also) for those with experience in this topic area. Drmies (talk) 17:27, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

• If I may suggest a way forward: instead of worrying too much about the a ref-bombed half-a-sentence in the article lede, we'd be better off presenting a summary of the various views in the article body including (for example) K. S. Lal's take that the Khaljis represented "a revolt of the Indian Muslims against the Turkish hegemony", Satish Chandra's skepticism on the point of the integration being meritocratic, Peter Jackson's analysis (Chapter 9) of the emergence of the new nobility, etc. And we can go beyond the topic of integration/non-integration of the nobility by, say, incorporating material from I. H. Siddiqui's recent book on the socio-cultural melding under the Khaljis.

I don't intend to edit the article myself since I haven't read widely enough on the topic but, hopefully, some subject experts will be able to take up on the suggestion. Cheers. Abecedare (talk) 18:41, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

hephthalites Turk?

How come they be of Turkic origin when the origin of Hephthalites is Indo-European and scholars believe they were a tribal confederation of Iranian peoples? Afghan.Records (talk) 23:07, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Because we have reliable secondary sources that state that. Did you not notice? Here is a few samples for your reading enjoyment.

• Fisher, Michael H. (18 October 2018). An Environmental History of India: From Earliest Times to the Twenty-First Century. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-11162-2. "In 1290, the Turk-Afghan Khalji clan ended the first mamluk dynasty and then ruled in Delhi until one of their own Turkish mamluk commanders rebelled and established his own Tugluq dynasty"
• Satish Chandra (2007). History of Medieval India:800-1700. Orient Longman. p. 93. ISBN 978-81-250-3226-7. "The Khalji rebellion was welcomed by the non-Turkish sections in the nobility. The Khaljis who were of a mixed Turkish-Afghan origin, did not exclude the Turks from high offices, but the rise of the Khaljis to power ended the Turkish monopoly of high offices"

Wikipedia is written using reliable sources, not your opinion, or my opinion, or anyone else's opinion. You appear to be heavily wrapped up in the ethnicity of editors and certain dynasties. Perhaps Wikipedia is not a good fit for you. --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:56, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

@Kansas Bear I believe this editor mostly relies on contemporary sources. I've seen people like this often use Telegram and mostly rely on Contemporary sources rather then secondary scholarly opinions. Just a thing to watch out for. Noorullah (talk) 02:32, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Well I can provide a variety of sources both contemporary and and secondary. It's been widely accepted that they were of Indo-European origin by modern scholars. Me using telegram doesn't mean anything nor does it mean I don't have knowledge of the subject. 2601:140:8280:B2B0:1B6A:214E:25F4:EA9F (talk) 16:27, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

I am assuming this is Afghan.Records? Why not log in then?

Also, your addition of Olaf Caroe, the English civil servant and not an historian, is incorrect. Caroe's book was not published by Oxford as added by you, but by Macmillan. Your claim of "wide acceptance" is meaningless, when there is a Cambridge University source stating something else. You appear to be here to right a great wrong, as you see it. --Kansas Bear (talk) 19:10, 23 July 2023 (UTC)