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Requested move 31 July 2021

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus.

This is an unusual case, as noted by Nurg. A simple count of the !votes shows 8 editors supporting the move and 4 opposing (including ShakyIsles as the question of merging is out of scope of this RM). However, Spekkios has expressly made their support conditional on guidelines supporting a move, and 3 other supporting editors have based their support on WP:NZNC, official usage and/or our convention on macron usage. For the reason stated below, these are all based on a misconception and I discount them. Accordingly, there is no consensus.

WP:NZNC says that we follow the New Zealand Gazetteer. This reflects this careful RfC, which has been referred to below as The Great Macron Debate. In essence, the RfC reached a strong consensus that common usage follows the Gazetteer. Based on the comments below, the Gazetteer has no entry specifically for Kapiti Coast, so WP:NZNC simply throws us back on WP:COMMONNAME. The Gazetteer does have an entry for Kapiti Coast District, spelt thus, and that article follows their spelling.

It appears that this is subject to ongoing discussion at the New Zealand Geographic Board (and within the Māori community) and it may be sensible for us to wait on the outcome of that per Schwede66 and Giantflightlessbirds

Thank you to everyone for your thoughtful comments. (non-admin closure) Havelock Jones (talk) 09:11, 22 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]


Kapiti Coast → Kāpiti Coast – The Kāpiti Coast District Council[1] recognize the name of the coast should include a Macron over the "a". This also impacts the pronunciation of the name. While kapiti is also a Te Reo word, Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Maori has advocated for the use of the macron in place names when in keeping with Local Iwi pronunciation, as Kāpiti does. [2]

References

  1. ^ "Home Page". Kāpiti Coast. NZGOVT. Retrieved 31 July 2021.
  2. ^ Te Taura Whiri i te Reo Māori. "Kāpiti the place name and kapiti the word". Scoop. scoop.co.nz. Retrieved 31 July 2021.
Powellelli (talk) 02:06, 31 July 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 23:01, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per WP:NZNC convention on macron usage Turnagra (talk) 09:46, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. This is an unusual case, for several reasons. Firstly, there is no unanimity among Māori about whether it is a long vowel. The Māori word kapiti does not have a long vowel. Some Māori say that the name comes from āpiti, which does have a long vowel, but it does not have a 'k'. There is some suggestion that "ka āpiti" has been contracted to form kāpiti. Secondly, Kāpiti Coast District Council uses the macron, so the case is stronger for adding the macron to the title Kapiti Coast District. Curiously, it has only been requested to add the macron to this article. Perhaps that was an oversight. Thirdly, I wonder whether we even need this article or whether it should be merged into Kapiti Coast District. The scope of this article is vaguely defined: "the Kapiti Coast in common parlance occasionally includes the neighbouring areas south to Plimmerton ... and in the north includes some of the coastal areas of Horowhenua, such as Waikawa Beach and even Hokio Beach". No citation is provided to support this. Fourthly, if this article is kept separate, does Kāpiti Coast District Council's usage apply to this wider area that extends outside Kapiti Coast District to Plimmerton etc? Nurg (talk) 02:39, 5 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. If this article is moved, most of the articles mentioned in Kapiti, like Kapiti Island need to be moved too. Vpab15 (talk) 22:30, 10 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Yes and no. Most of them will be decided independent of this discussion – some could probably be moved now. Kapiti Island would probably need its own discussion. Nurg (talk) 10:15, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we should have the coast and the island spelled differently. It seems unnecessary to have separate discussions. Vpab15 (talk) 14:35, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
There are numerous cases where an official name has a macron and another feature with the same name (unofficial or official) does not – this is a process being resolved, gradually, by the NZGB, and in ther meantime creates inconsistency both in the real world and in Wikipedia. See Mahināpua Creek which flows under the Mahinapua Creek Rail Bridge Historic Reserve (both official names) for example. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 08:01, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject New Zealand has been notified of this discussion. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 23:01, 29 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The NZGB Gazetteer doesn't use the macron. My understanding of the policy is that once, or if, NZBG uses a macron then we should too. Nauseous Man (talk) 01:21, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The Kāpiti Coast isn't a distinct entity on the Gazetteer, in the same way that the Hibiscus Coast also isn't listed. The closest is "Kapiti Coast District" which, as you say, doesn't have a macron - however, the definition states it as "the area administered by Kapiti Coast District Council", who do use a macron on their website for Kāpiti. Turnagra (talk) 06:51, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 04:59, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per nomination. Common usage on many local websites. As @Vpab15: says, several other pages should probably be moved. For example, Kapiti College calls itself "Kāpiti College". Somej (talk) 07:22, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment No NZGB Gazetteer usages of "Kapiti" have a macron, including the relevant official one, the Kapiti Coast District (which was gazetted back in 1989 when nothing took a macron – so this is due to be rexamined, like some other official names). Some names made official more recently include Kapiti Seavalley (2018), Kapiti Marine Reserve (2009), and Kapiti Island Nature Reserve (2009). I understand from a NZGB representative that "Kapiti/Kāpiti" is taking a while to be resolved, as there's disagreement between the Māori Language Commission and local iwi as to the correct spelling (see the Kapiti Island article for a summary of this). I personally would hold off changing until official names with macrons are announced. In the Great Macron Debate, we agreed to go by official names in the NZGB Gazetteer; if there is no official name, then we would go by common usage, but that then begins a much more involved discussion over whether recent news stories, magazines, books, official databases, encyclopedias and other reliable sources currently favour "Kāpiti". Just pointing out that in the real world this is one of the most contentious macron usage examples in New Zealand. —Giantflightlessbirds (talk) 08:01, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per nomination and the Wikipedia convention on macron usage. I think it is good to do this article separately to others similar rather than try to work through conventions and common use arguments for other articles at the same time. Pakoire (talk) 23:24, 30 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - If this is the official name for this subject then this is what the subject's name should be. Even despite common use of omitting macrons, there is cultural significance in keeping the macron, especially given the Māori pronunciation and spelling of the location. Qwertyxp2000 (talk | contribs) 05:05, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
But it is not an official name. It does not have an official name. "Kapiti Coast District" is an official name, but that is a different article. Nurg (talk) 05:35, 1 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Macrons

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The Kapiti Coast is not correctly spelt without the macrons. The anonymous users here that keep removing them may be the ones who are defacing the culture in real life. See: https://www.1news.co.nz/2019/07/18/get-a-life-kapiti-mayor-slams-vandal-who-keeps-removing-macron-from-regions-welcome-sign/ https://i.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/news/109792715/kpitis-welcome-signs-defaced-in-apparent-act-of-defiance-against-mori-language Panamitsu (talk) 10:09, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to point out my comment above of 5 August 2021, and also Kapiti Island#Name and etymology (as Kapiti originated from the name of the island). Nurg (talk) 11:22, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ASPERSIONS. It is entirely unnecessary to suppose that editors here are vandals; let their behaviour here speak for itself. — HTGS (talk) 21:24, 30 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If the name is officially known with a macron by the council, what is there to dispute about it? Panamitsu (talk) 08:46, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
User:Panamitsu a number of reasons, one of them being that they might know that the council uses it (though local government isn't the beacon of tika). I've found it's always best to believe that editors are acting in good faith. Nauseous Man (talk) 09:36, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
User:Panamitsu. The council administers Kapiti Coast District. This is the article about Kapiti Coast, not Kapiti Coast District, which is covered by the Kapiti Coast District article. Nurg (talk) 10:53, 31 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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