Talk:John Philip Sousa/Archive 1

Archive 1

Dead media links

It looks like the media links went dead. Anyone know what happened? Were they always dead? Mirror Vax 22:02, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Specifically, I'm referring to these:

Mirror Vax 00:09, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Answering my own question: they were erroneously deleted in a mass purge of suspected copyrighted files. Mirror Vax 02:31, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

King Cotton 1895

The date has been "corrected" to 1892. This needs vetting. --Wetman 08:27, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

born 5th or 6th?

more often his birthday is given as 6th of November... (like Adolphe Sax ;-) Can anyone clear this up? Y23 (talk) 11:52, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Why John Philip Sousa?

Was he called "John Philip" by his friends and family, or just "John"? When he met someone, did he say "Hi, I'm John Philip Sousa", or just "Hi, I'm John Sousa"? Was there any other composer named John Sousa from whom it is necessary to distinguish? -- JackofOz (talk) 01:29, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

As the last name "Sousa" and other variants was a common name, it was traditional to include the middle name along with the first, even amongst family and friends. Yes, Sousa did in fact address himself as "John Philip Sousa", as heard in original radio broadcasts. SousaFan88 (talk) 02:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:09, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Great Job

Looks like this article's been cleaned up and expanded. And that part about him running away to join the circus is gone. Kudos to all the contributors --76.86.234.41 (talk) 09:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

But he did try to run away and join the circus... SousaFan88 (talk) 02:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

This article...

...reads like it was lifted from someplace. The tone of it is more like a review than an encyclopedia entry. There were a number of changes made on July 8, 2006, or so, that are like that. I'm tempted to scrap it and start over. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Much of the stuff that was flagged for citations today was posted on May 15, 2004, by a user who is still in the system as recently as this month. Maybe someone could ask him about that. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:21, 17 January 2008 (UTC) he was very fat —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.57.3 (talk) 12:46, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

let's not be silly

I am continually amazed at the attributions to Freemasons. Yes, John Philip Sousa was a Freemason, but it had nothing to do with copper, as the reference implies. Gee, everyone, just how silly can we be! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.69.137.10 (talk) 21:56, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

"Being Independently Wealthy"

Where does this come from? His grandparents were refugees. There's no mention of any family wealth from his parents or his wife, but there is one mention of him "being independently wealthy" with no mention of HOW he became independently wealthy. Was it just from his marches?

There's a huge gap between his grandparents being refugees and Sousa being independently wealthy that is never explained.--Elmyr (talk) 03:29, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it was primarily from his marches. Sousa sold his first marches for only $35 a piece. After Sousa hired David Blakley as his business manager, Blakely arranged a change of publishers. His next few marches made him rich. More info here. -- Dlovrien (talk) 20:20, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

If this is true and referencable, why isn't it in the article that he had a manager who was responsible for his financial success? (See my review for more comments in this vein.) Magic♪piano 20:07, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. This article is B-class, but I find the biographic and musicological treatment to be somewhat superficial. My detailed review is on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 20:07, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this. Upgrading this article would be a great project for a music grad student! Dlovrien (talk) 19:30, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Especially if s/he has regular access to the right kinds of musicological resources... Magic♪piano 23:06, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Copyright status of Sousa's compositions

Does the "life of the composer plus 75 years" rule mean that all of Sousa's compositions are now in the public domain in the US? Or, more broadly: are there any copyright restrictions on his compositions anywhere in the world now? If it were all public domain, it would be nice to mention that. Musanim (talk) 20:31, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

As I understand it, in the United States of America, compositions and arrangements of them published prior to 1923 are now in the public domain. Those published after 1922 are not. This was a key issue for me when I began creating MIDI sequences of Sousa compositions for my website. It is for me a moral issue as well as a legal one, for if I owned a company that still owned copyright on Sousa compositions and arrangements, I would not want someone making public MIDI sequences of them without my permission.

The pre-1923 rule must still be valid, because the Library of Congress presentations of free online sheet music of Sousa compositions and arrangements, the chief source for my MIDI sequences, are all dated before 1923.

Prismsplay (talk) 12:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

El Capitan

Poster from the original run

If you'd rather, I've just done a restoration of a poster from the original run, that could replace the sheet music (if desired). Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 19:29, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Transit Of Venus March

The article referenced as the source for the story about this march being lost for a hundred years seems like a very poorly researched piece - I personally have at least two recordings of the march both made in the 1970's including one by the US Marine Band. Including the comment above about Freemasonry, I humbly suggest the removal of this particular paragraph. Mhf1953 (talk) 22:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I would support removing nearly all of the Freemason section - it is trivial to an article of this scope. A single sentence mentioning that he was a Freemason would be sufficient. Dlovrien (talk) 19:19, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Refugees

It is mentioned several times in the article that his parents were refugees, yet the provided source does not mention so even once. any reason for this, or just an assumption? Galf (talk) 15:05, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It is only mentioned once (not several times), but you are correct that the source does not corroborate the statement. I have never read any mention of the immigration status of his paternal grandparents. I support removing the claim. Dlovrien (talk) 15:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

I didn't check the history to see if the edit was made, but I'll remove it now. It was clearly not in the source, and his grandparents weren't even mentioned. Ufwuct (talk) 20:03, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Copyright date of "El Capitan" march

El Capitan is the title of both an operetta and a march by Sousa. For the operetta, putting a date on it is troublesome. Who knows the sequence of dates of composition, copyright, first performance, and publication? I have seen dates of 1895 and 1896 for the operetta, with a first performance date in 1897. For the march, I have seen dates of 1894, 1895, and 1896. The 1894 date could be a typo. In its Sousa Album for the Pianoforte, Theodore Presser Co. showed a copyright date of "MDCCCXCIV" [1894]. Should this have been "MDCCCXCVI" [1896]? If the 1894 date is correct, then the march was copyrighted prior to the composition of the operetta.

Prismsplay (talk) 13:26, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

It is entirely possible that the march was composed (and copyrighted) before the rest of the operetta; I have not done any research into this matter, nor do I plan to do so. — Robert Greer (talk) 13:32, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Sousa's religion

I was asked which religion Sousa was, and had trouble finding that fact online, so I thought I'd add the information here after I located it in a book. It seemed most related to the existing section on his involvement with Freemasonry, especially since I thought Freemasons were much more religious than Sousa seemed to be. I added it as the lead paragraph in that section only because that's how it seemed to fit best with the existing text. (Herzogbr (talk) 02:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC))

how old —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.179.202.59 (talk) 01:26, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Urban Legend

I deleted the line that JPS added the "usa" to his surname as a patriotic act because it is false. JPS's father's surname "de Sousa" is a very common and very old Portuguese surname. Nothing was added to it and was not originally just "So". Portuguese surname prepositions like "de" and "da" (literally, of and from) was dropped by many Portuguese-Americans. --Miguellabrego 21:12, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Deleted again. C'mon, folks! this kind of bubblehead fluff doesn't credit Wikipedia. --Wetman 09:06, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe the PhilipsoUSA "bubblehead fluff" can be put in this article since it is an actual urban legend about Sousa. As long as it specifically states the urban legend is false, it's fine. (anon. post from User:SousaFan88)

Even fluff needs a source, saying where this urban legend is noted. Unsourced fluff could be added interminably. I won't revert this again, but I'll notify SousaFan88 that it does require a source. --Wetman 19:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Here's the only place I could find it. http://www.dws.org/sousa/content/blogcategory/7/26/ It should be noted that the site itself doesn't have a source about the myth.

You know, I've heard this for decades. Whenever anyone tells the story they say something like, "You know, this probably isn't true but..." I first heard the USA thing in the 70s from Lenny Bernstein but I've heard it from a lot of others. Really, almost anytime someone's conducting a Sousa march they'll pop off with the story. I should point out that there are many things in the ancient profession of music that one hears but never sees written down. Many things! Gingermint (talk) 03:15, 23 October 2010 (UTC)

Paul Johnson, shockingly, states this as a fact in his superb book A History of the American People. Aviad2001 (talk) 20:47, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

looking for help getting a sound recorded

Would like to get a Midi (or have someone play on piano manually and record) the composition Myrrha Gavotte (piano arrangement). Sheet music available on the web and song is public domain. Does NOT need to be a perfect recording. Just want something (for a different article on Myrrha herself, not Sousa). Help? TCO (talk) 03:07, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Sousa's opinion of National Emblem

I removed a paragraph talking about Sousa's opinion of the National Emblem march because it didn't seem appropriate to me to include in this article. It would be perfectly legitimate in Bagley's article or the one on the march itself, but I really don't think it goes here. I was reverted by the editor who originally added the text, though, so I'm bringing it here for further discussion. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:37, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

List of marches

Before the extending list of red-linked marches gets out of hand, can we get a reference to an on-line complete list of Sousa marches, and then list here just those famous enough to have individual articles? A weighted list is useful; an incomplete list of "Sousa marches that come to mind" doesn't aid the reader. --Wetman 19:43, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The most renowned online site about Sousa today is the Dallas Wind Symphonys sub-page http://www.dws.org/sousa/index.php I was actually losing faith in the site until they just recently updated it. Here you will find an adapted list of Sousa works from "John Philip Sousa, An American Phenomenon". I will add it to the article. (anon.)

An anonymous contributor has added a redlinked ""Processional (Wedding March)". Is this an alternative title? At any rate, with a link to a complete list, shouldn't all marches that don't have their own articles be deleted from this partial list? --Wetman 05:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Just a question: What would such a deletion of article-less compositions accomplish? I would dare to hope that WP would be at least one of several places at which one could find reference to material everybody else ignored by reason of lack of popularity. I could be wrong, in which case feel free to disabuse me of my silly thought. NorthCoastReader (talk) 02:26, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I once saw a piece of piano sheet music titles something like "American wedding march: dedicated to the brides of America" by Sousa. I don't have a copy, but I recall it was from around WWI and might reflect the anti-German feelings of the era, in that it would replace works by Mendelssohn and Wagner.Saxophobia 18:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

The official link to my list of Sousa compositions is http://www.dws.org/sousa/works.htm - the listing is an authorized reproduction of the Appendix to "John Philip Sousa - American Phenomenon" (Paul Bierley, ISBN 0757906125) with edits due to new information over the past 10 years. Dlovrien 18:37, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

In accordance with the opinions above, I removed most of the unlinked marches and "and notable" to the intro. This list should only contain those marches recorded and performed most often and possibly those with special historical significance (eg., The Gladiator, his first commercial success). Some of these are still debatable. Dlovrien (talk) 22:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to pile on here, noting the remarkable inconsistency of the coverage of the man's work. A considerable expanse of space is devoted to the Transit of Venus march (how many of us have ever heard it, other than on the Web?), while The Stars and Stripes Forever (which most eight-year-olds can recognize) seems like an afterthought.--Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 15:43, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

The Minnesota March is also one of Sousa's well known works

Minnesota March By John Philip Sousa, Arranged by Frank Bencriscutto, Words by Michael Jalma

Listen to Minnesota March: [MP3 1,490K]

RAH! RAH! SKI-U-MAH! RAH! RAH! RAH!

March on, march on to victory! Loyal sons of the varsity. Fight on, fight on for Minnesota For the glory of the old maroon and gold.

March on, march on to win the game, DOWN THE FIELD, fighting every play. We're with you, team, fighting team, Hear our song, we cheer along To help you win a victory!

Sdbarker (talk) 18:33, 27 November 2013 (UTC)sdbarker

I'm a Gophers fan too, but what's your point about improving this page? Ckruschke (talk) 19:34, 27 November 2013 (UTC)Ckruschke

References

Sousa's Bands

How are Sousa's bands characterized? Did he use trumpets or cornets? Were his bands more in the style of British military bands or were they symphonic in nature? Virgil H. Soule (talk) 11:50, 2 April 2014 (UTC)