Talk:Jack Tramiel

Father's death

The statement "His father died of Typhus in the work camp like many other inmates, although Tramiel believes he was killed by an injection of gasoline." is not clear to this new Wikipedian, no expert on Tramiel or even the Holocaust. Is the reader to understand that "Like many other inmates, his father was reported to have died of Typhus in the work camp; however, Tramiel believes he was killed by an injection of gasoline." or that "Evidence that his father succumbed to the Typhus that killed many inmates in the work camp appears convincing to many scholars but Tramiel disputes this, claiming he was instead murdered by an injection of gasoline." or even "While there can be little doubt that his father actually died of Typhus, as did many other inmates in the work camp, Tramiel's contrary claim of assassination by gasoline injection is one examply of the mythomania for which he is notorious." Perhaps a rephrasing could better hint at some complicated underlying truth, although there may be a larger lurking controversy around which we are tiptoeing with this compromise sentence. In any case, it sure struck me as an odd way of phrasing it. Ph7five 12:44, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

However it winds up being phrased, make sure that it maintains NPOV. Don't confuse healthy neutrality with "compromise" or weasel sentences. -Fadookie ^{Talk | contrib} 10:32, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Anything is better than the way it is currently worded. It says some nonsense about the Nazi's claiming something. I don't think there are any claims made by the NAZI's regarding Tramiel's father.JettaMann 03:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Re "killed by an injection of gasoline." Isn't it more likely that someone said "he was gassed" (i.e., subjected to lethal gas, as the Nazis were known to do that sort of thing) and a bad translation along the way resulted in "he was killed by gasolene"? WHPratt (talk) 16:06, 16 March 2012 (UTC) We should point out to U.K. readers that Americans commonly refer to gasolene as simply "gas." WHPratt (talk) 12:25, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

This source says "Later, Jack learned that the death was directly caused by an injection of gasoline into his father's veins." It gives a source as " 'Everything in History Was Against Them,' Fortune magazine, April 13, 1998". Someone would need to track down the original Fortune article to better understand what the sources were for that article and if there may be translation issues such as "injecting gas into a room" later being told as "injecting gasoline into someone's veins". A google search for '"inject petrol" veins' and '"inject petrol" Holocaust' finds a few pages of interest:

• "One of the experiments was to inject petrol into a persons' blood stream to see their reaction before they died & so that they would burn quicker."^[1]
• "The Austrian medic would inject petrol and an array of different poisons straight into the hearts of his so-called patients to see which killed them fastest."^[2]
• "Whilst at Auschwitz I saw SS male nurses Heine and Stibitz inject petrol into women patients"^[3]
• "Youth dies of infection after UP policemen inject petrol into his genitals" (this is from the year 2013)^[4]

There's more, particularly with '"inject petrol" Holocaust'. I did not look for web pages about gasoline injections. As there is a considerable amount of agenda pushing and resulting confirmation bias with regard to the Holocaust (or denial of) I suspect it would be next to impossible for us to reliably/verifiability determine the the methods used by the Nazis much less the circumstances of Jack Tramiel's father's death. What we can do is to quote what people said. If Jack Tramiel ever stated during an interview that his father was killed via an injection of gasoline then we can quote Jack Tramiel and leave it to WP readers to decide for themselves. --Marc Kupper|talk 22:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Confusing facts around the Atari/Amiga relations

In the section "Atari" the sentences "When Tramiel purchased Atari, Commodore stepped in and bought the Amiga technology outright. The Tramiel-owned Atari decided to create their own 16-bit home computer." are in conflict with the facts that are stated in the article Did Atari attempt to acquire Amiga? —This unsigned comment was added by 147.232.75.61 (talk • contribs) .

This is a little complicated.

Tramiel was having a hard time at Commodore, Irving Gould was trying to take control and force the founder out. Tramiel secretly arranged to buy control of Atari before he was forced out of Commodore. One day he quit, took half the engineering staff with him, and a few days later bought Atari from Warner Bros.

Amiga Corporation was having cash problems, and Atari was looking for technology to expand their line into 16 bit computers. Atari loaned Amiga half a million dollars, betting they wouldn't be able to pay it back in a month, and then Atari could buy them out for a song. That day would come, and Tramiel would offer to buy Amiga, but low balled the offer.

The original offer was a million shares of Amiga for $3 each, but Tramiel low balled them and offered less than a dollar.

Jay Miner (who incidentally also designed computers for Atari) said it was a bad deal, but Amiga needed the money to keep afloat.

Commodore came along at the last minute, offered Amiga a lot more money, which the management accepted. Commodore was convinced to buy Amiga Corp at $4.25 a share, and also gave them a million dollars to pay off Atari.

Tramiel would not be stopped by this setback. Atari would offer a 16 bit computer before the Amiga debuted, but it was not as powerful as the Commodore-Amiga 1000. But it was cheaper to make. 99.240.153.47 (talk) 23:50, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Problem is. none of what you said above ever happened like that. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 00:07, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I recall a story very much like the anonymous post above, so I'm inclined to believe it. Over the years since the Amiga/Atari dealings (c. 1985), I've talked at length with Leonard Tramiel, R.J. Mical, and Nolan Bushnell, who (in 1991)--completing strange reversal of brands--promoted Commodore's Amiga derivative CDTV. - Johnlogic (talk) 21:02, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Ah, but you do not have Mr. Goldberg's impressive additional research (OR for wikipedia purposes, but not for source debunking purposes) that pretty much exposes all that for a sham perpetuated by Mr. Mical. Marty can tell you better than I, but there was no stock offer from Tramiel, just a licensing deal made by Atari in late 1983 to use the Lorraine technology before Tramiel had left Commodore. Also, Tramiel did not secretly arrange to buy control of Atari before he left Commodore, that opportunity only developed after he had left and set up Tramel Technologies. After Commodore offered to invest in Amiga, the company CEO, Dave Morse, lied to Atari and stated the Lorraine chips could not be finished on the timetable specified by the licensing deal and payed them back the initial $500,000 Atari had given them, bringing the matter to a close. Tramiel had nothing to do with any potential Atari-Amiga deals until after Commodore stepped in and he discovered the original Atari deal with Amiga and initiated his lawsuit against them. Indrian (talk) 00:02, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

John, Curt Vendel and I have researched this to death, including full interviews and obtaining all the court documents and testimony. The documents lay out the full terms of the deals and fully contradict the supposed terms laid out above as well as Rj Mical's "stories". RJ wasn't directly involved in the dealings, and as he says "If I have to choose between the truth and telling a good story - I prefer to tell a good story". The deal was for an initial $500,000 to fund development of the chips, another million on the delivery of the three custom Amiga chips in July, $500,000 for each individual chip, 1 million shares of preferred stock at $3 a share, and $2 a set licensing fee on every console manufactured with the chip set. That doesn't even include the money for usage in coin-op. Likewise, the license of the Amiga chip set by Atari Inc. was for usage in a game console (codenamed Mickey and in full development across the Spring and early Summer of '84, which would be allowed to be expanded to a full computer in '85) and in coin. Regarding Leonard, he's an acquaintance of mine as well, and has never ever said anything like the above claim. He still has the canceled check in fact he discovered during the July '84 evaluation period. The dealings with Amiga and the initial payment to Amiga were with Atari Inc. David Morse first approached Atari Inc. in November 1983. They continued with private meetings between Warner and David at the Jan. '84 CES and resulted in an initial signing and payment on March 7th, 1984. In fact here's the check (courtesy of Leonard).

Likewise, Jack left Commodore in January of '84. His purchase of Atari Consumer did not occur until July. So the idea that he "secretly arranged to buy control of Atari before he was forced out of Commodore" is preposterous.

Commodore sued Shiraz and several other engineers for theft of trade secrets and put injunctions on them doing any computer work, immediately after Warner and Jack announced the purchase of Atari Consumer. In late July, Leonard discovered the canceled check, the made inquires to Warner (since the deal was technically their deal and executed by Atari Inc.) about it, arranged to have the contract signed over to him and launched a counter suit against Commodore via Amiga in August of '84. Most of this is well documented in the Wall Street Journal and New York Times of the time as well. Finally, I'm not sure why you're bringing up Nolan. He left Atari Inc. in November/December of '78, and had nothing to do with any of this. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 04:28, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

References needed

The article is lacking in references; though I suspect most are to the website and book listed below. There are quite a few other online sources of info, plus another book written about Tramiel (in circa late 1980's). Also, some of this seems to be written from a "friendly" POV, not a neutral POV - all the controversial aspects seem to be glossed over or ignored. That said, the book referenced looks to be very well done (and I know a lot of the principals mentioned). jesup 22:54, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're refering to with "controversial" points, and I hope you don't mean the missinformation put out by RJ Mical regarding the whole Atari/Amiga fiasco. I took out two of the citation requests, because that info was already covered in the cited "On the Edge Book" by Brian Bagnall (which I contributed to as well). The name issue (Tramel instead of Tramiel) is common knowlege and the spelling is used on all SEC filings, the quote used in reference is from an interview with Leonard Tramiel a number of years ago (a portion of which is published at ClassicGaming.Com). The Japanese comment is also from the same interview, and Jack's desire to compete against the Japanese was also well documented as a driving force during his Commodore days as well going all the way back to Commodore's calculator days (also covered in said book, as well as numerous online Commodore history sites with direct quotes from him such as [5]). So I'm not sure why him being ultra-competitive towards the Japanese is being contested. It was also a view held in public opinion at the time as evidenced by [6]. As for the executives leaving in protest, it is documented here and here (under the blurb "2 MACHINES CHALLENGE I.B.M."). --Marty Goldberg 06:42, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

It sounds like you have references, but they should be in the article, not here on the talk page. He is a somewhat controversial figure in business history, and many histories of the company from different sources mention the controversies surrounding him. While not appropriate for a Wiki page (WP:NOR), I know a quite a few of the people involved, and they give a very different picture than some parts of this page. I've done some quick looking and have found at least a half a dozen additional WP:RS that can be used to improve the article. A good start before I begin editing might be for you to make a pass adding references, which should help avoid mistakes in future editing. An editor coming into this article does not see obvious sourcing. WP:BLP encourages you to have as many references as possible in this sort of case. Thanks! jesup 11:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Hi Randell, I'm certainly aware of how controversial he is regarding business. My main focus in relation to this crossover of subjects has been on TTL and his Atari years (and that's the era where a lot of my aquaintences regarding him are as well, such as Joe Decuir, who was all but erased from Amiga history until I brought to light his involvement. He had to lay low at the time because of having the unique distinction of being employed at both Amiga and Atari Inc. at the time of this changeover). So if you have additional resources previous to that have fun! I'd just caution that while there are a lot of negative stories, not all are accurate or hold water when actually researched, and that remember to ballance it as WP is meant to be neutral. There's an imbalance of negative stories/resources out there, so I always try and ballance the positive and negative with regards to him. As you can see from my contributions listing, I'm not new to WP and am familiar with the references process. However, because I contribute to such a wide ammount of articles and have a busy "real life" schedule, I can't always get to every task that needs to be done when I should. I'll try and add them in later today. By the way, how did you enjoy your time at Amiga? What did you do there? --Marty Goldberg 14:04, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

1988-1994. The "deathbed vigil" party immortalized by Dave Haynie (and Dale Larson) was held at my house, where we burned Mehdi Ali in effigy. It was a blast overall, though with lots of painful moments along the way. The rebuilt Amiga team (almost everyone was let go in circa 1986-1987) was an amazingly strong group, led by people like Jeff Porter, Bryce Nesbitt, Dave Haynie, Andy Finkel, myself and later Mike Sinz. A number of the original Amiga people consulted or worked with us at times (Dale Luck, Bob 'Kodiak' Burns, the guy who replaced RJ on Intuition and more recently was a major person in creating "The Sims", Carl Sassenrath, the guy who designed "Paula". Considering how badly we were outnumbered by people like Microsoft and Apple we did an amazing job. I inherited the role of Head of the OS group after Bryce and later Mike left. jesup 16:08, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Tagged as {{blpdispute}}. --h2g2bob (talk) 18:36, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Major edit

I've seriously trimmed this article. There was a very large amount which was history of various companies which is best described on the company pages, and lacked sources. --h2g2bob (talk) 12:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Corrected a few things that were summarized incorrectly from the trimming. --Marty Goldberg 15:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

real name?

Other sources ("On the Edge", or the German Wikipedia) say Tramiel is born as "Idek Tramielski", not Idek Trzmiel. What was his real name?--194.77.253.245 (talk) 14:09, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I support. I read this source [3] in Polish langage and for me isn't reliable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.158.100 (talk) 14:28, 25 June 2013 (UTC)

Without a birth certificate, this is one of the most difficult aspect of Jack Tramiel's life to confirm. The oldest published document is an ITS tracking paper listing his name as Idek Trzmiel . This name is corroborated with Leonard Tramiel's (his son) photo journal . Idek is likely his nickname, meaning "Little Juda." "Juda" being the Polish name of the Jewish name "Yehuda." Either "Idek" or "Juda" seem correct, but this early document published by the interactive documentary Jack and the Machine names him "Idek." Schmudde (talk) 15:26, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

In original form it's either Trzmiel or Trzmielski. Trzmiel in polish is a type of Bumblebee. Trzmielski is a form that mixes Trzmiel with -ski morphem. -- 83.25.229.136 (talk)

It should be Icek instead of Idek

It should be Icek/Içek which corresponds with Isaac, Issac, Isaak, Izaac, Isak, Izak, Isac, Izac, Izik,...

In ww2 emergency it was often mapped to polish Jacek, which corresponds with english Jack. If someone doesn't know jidisz/polish ortography and heard 'Icek' then it might became 'Idek', but that's just wrong. There is no such name as 'Idek' - it doesn't relate properly to Isaac.

For example when jews were hiding from germans among polish population: mothers cautioned, ‘Remember, you’re not Icek, but Jacek (...)' -> https://culture.pl/en/artist/irena-sendlerowa

Also Izak article notes Itzik, Itzhak forms which are transliterated from cyrillic. Using west slavic phonetics 'tz' corresponds to 'c' or 'cz'/'č'/'ç'.

83.25.229.136 (talk)

References

Minor grammar edit

The phrase "Sam would have a heart attack" should be just "Sam had a heart attack". I am tempted just to make the edit. It is nonsense to put it in the subjunctive-- or if not nonsense, sentimental, and not NPOV.

[[User:SimonTrew|SimonTrew] 2009-Jan-xiv 17.44 GMT

Claims of "ruined lives"

I removed this diff:

Former employees at Atari Corp. have also stated the work environment was very unpleasant and volatile, with some later complaining that their lives and careers had been ruined by Tramiel and his sons.<ref>[http://www.digitpress.com/library/interviews/interview_howard_scott_warshaw.html]</ref><ref>[http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=995]</ref><ref>''On the Edge: The Spectacular Rise and Fall of Commodore'' by Brian Bagnall, Variant Press, ISBN 0973864907</ref>

Nowhere in the two web accessible references does it support the claim - one says "After Jack Tramiel bought Atari, it was not a very attractive place to work" - in the other the claim is made second hand in the comments section - quote "I’m a Commodore fan from way back, and it’s nice to hear an Atari insider’s stories about the Tramiels (the opinions of the Commodore engineers are pretty well documented–I believe one of them, seeing Jack Tramiel years later, told him that he ruined his career, his marriage, and his life).", along with claims that they were stock market manipulators.

Another post (ignored) says "Working with Leonard [Tramiel] and the rest of the team at Atari was truly a memorable experience. Parts of working for the Tramiels were crazy, but I have to say working for Leonard was a great experience. If you worked at Atari, you know that some great people came through those doors over the years. And some pretty good products came out there as well."

The third source is not specific enough - need a page number.

There are some non-trivial unreferenced statements in the article. I think this needs checking probably. I will report to WP:BLPImgaril (talk) 16:06, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

more

Also another part fails verification from the sources

==Controversy== Tramiel is sometimes viewed with disdain for his overall business conduct practices and operations under the Atari brand.<ref>[http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1301&dat=19890320&id=7ZoRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=o-cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4552,10507032 Interview with the Sydney Morning Herald]</ref> For example, Tramiel is claimed to have kept the marketing and game development budget for consoles such as the 7800 at an absolute minimum, and as a result very few games were produced in comparison to the [[Nintendo Entertainment System]], further infuriating Atari gamers.<ref>[http://www.atarimuseum.com/videogames/consoles/7800/7800menu/]</ref>

The newspaper article is undated and unavailable, the second part is not verifyied by the given reference. I am not contesting the statements, they need reliably referencing if true.Imgaril (talk) 16:17, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

This may be the Sydney Morning Herald Article [7] - "Jack Tramiel is well aware of his reputation as aggressive and penny-pinching to the point of meanness. It doesn't worry him." - nowhere does that article verify the claim made.Imgaril (talk) 16:24, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Jack Tramiel passed away?

Can anybody confirm the passing of Jack Tramiel? http://groups.google.com/group/alt.obituaries/browse_thread/thread/d7014da27284af59/a627c644670a206f#a627c644670a206f) [edit] A story from Forbes just appeared online which is similar to the newsgroup post: http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidthier/2012/04/09/computer-legend-and-gaming-pioneer-jack-tramiel-dies-at-age-83/ thanks.

It's been confirmed and a Forbes article posted as reference. After I confirmed it with his son Leonard I contacted a freelancer I know at Forbes about doing an obit. He in turn contacted the family as well and got confirmation, hence the article. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 18:51, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if his legacy will receive as much attention as did Steve Jobs'? I'd argue that Tramiel did more to put computers in the common man's home than anyone. WHPratt (talk) 19:01, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

I can only hope. I know he's doing a followup full sized article as well, but I hope the larger pieces aren't limited to just Forbes. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 19:03, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

cause of death not stated

in my opinion these details are significant, regardless of age. certainly for younger people everyone would demand such cause. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clarksmom (talk • contribs) 05:08, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

• And if and when the cause of death is revealed, it will almost certainly be added. Kinda hard to do that when it has not been announced though. Indrian (talk) 09:52, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

How to say 'Tramiel'

I saw a lot of media surrounding his death and it appears his name is pronounced /trəˈmɛl/ trə-MEL. Anyone know different? --Moogsi (talk) 08:49, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

That's correct. That's the reason why his company after Commodore, Tramel Technology Ltd. was spelt Tramel - so people pronounced his last name properly. --Marty Goldberg (talk) 16:15, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Thanks – added to the article, per request. That people mispronounced him that much means it's probably needed :) --Moogsi (talk) 18:16, 18 November 2012 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Jack Tramiel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120513181613/http://spectrum.ieee.org/ns/pdfs/commodore64_mar1985.pdf to https://spectrum.ieee.org/ns/pdfs/commodore64_mar1985.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 00:33, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Jack Tramiel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20090612061146/http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2007/12/20/a_few_words_with_jack_tramiel_and_the_commodore_64_gang/ to http://blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2007/12/20/a_few_words_with_jack_tramiel_and_the_commodore_64_gang/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:42, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Jack Tramiel. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20160319033900/http://movieprop.com/videogames/atari/people.htm to https://www.movieprop.com/videogames/atari/people.htm

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 18:34, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Reasons for leaving Commodore

I remember reading in a German magazine that Tramiel left Commodore because his attempts to heave his sons into Commodore's management were denied to him by other shareholders. I do not have that magazine at hand right now, but if this is true, then we should handle with caution any account his son(s) give of these matters. They may not be impartial. I am especially alarmed reading in the comments on Youtube that the Wikipedia article short be corrected. We do not know what is correct, and probably never will (like so many things about Tramiel's Commodore: The real origins of the name Commodore, the alleged reasons for choosing the V(I)C-20's name ("Volkscomputer"), etc.). --2003:DE:23C6:6524:2047:C435:1DBF:549B (talk) 15:24, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Name

Why couldn't I find a single source referring to this person as Idek? Polish wikipedia says Jacek and every source I've seen does too. Wiktorpp (talk) 16:25, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

• The name Idek is found on an official document generated by the Allies in post-war Germany. This document is reproduced online at one of the sources for this article. Indrian (talk) 16:47, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Ok. Are there any polish sources? Wiktorpp (talk) 12:03, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

Please clarify

The article atates that he was one of 6 people spotlighted when "the computer" was named Machine of the Year. Which computer is this article referring to? MacaroniPizzaHotDog (talk) 03:34, 1 September 2024 (UTC)