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Talk:Józef Abelewicz

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Abelewicz or Abelevičius?

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This article was stable describing him as Polish under a Polish name for many ears. Recent expantion is welcome, but name/nationality changes are controversial and should be discussed first. For now, the move should be reverted per WP:RMUM and I've edited the article to be more neutral (restore previous name, use both Polish and Lithuanian categories and adjectives, ex. "associated with Lithuania and Poland"). Note that Polish Biographical Dictionary calls him by his Polish name (the entry I think is reproduced here and does not make any claims about him being Polish or Lithuanian). Not that it is surprising, I expect most Polish soruces do so, and most Lithuanian sources use his Lithuanian one. I'll note that I tried a BEFORE and I failed to find any sources about him outside what we have, although Lithuanian sources Lietuvos TSR bibliografija and Literatūra ir kalba might be of use if anyone can access them. He does not seem to be discussed in any English works I can see. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 03:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The initial stub article was very poorly sourced and I do not consider the contents of a stub article that only mentioned a dictionary without the page, author, etc., in any way binding. Even if the article remained in such a bad state for as many as 14 years.
In fact, there is not a single RS that calls the person a "Polish Catholic priest" - only the Polish Wikipedia (which does not provide a source for calling him Polish) and low-quality rip-offs from Wikipedia, e.g. this coffee website, DBpedia, wiki.edu.vn, etc, call this person a Pole.
I adjusted some things in this article based on any sources available, including the Polish one that you gave. Judging from his biography, the person might have never even set foot in Poland, but was entirely restricted to the former Grand Duchy of Lithuania and Saint Petersburg.
It is also unfortunate as you have noted that no English-language sources even mention him. Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:14, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Note that I am not endorsing calling him a "Polish Catholic priest". I preesume you can quote one or more reliable Lithuanian sources which call him Lithuanian? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:43, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Abelẽvičius Jonas Juozapas *1821 03 17 Anykščiai †1882 07 15 Vilnius, Lietuvos katalikų kunigas, teologas. - Lithuanian Catholic priest, theologian. Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia - https://www.vle.lt/straipsnis/jonas-juozapas-abelevicius/. Cukrakalnis (talk) 13:19, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
PS. Is this a RS? Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:46, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The website is administrated by this person [1] - Tautvydas Kontrimavičius [lt], who is notable enough to have a lt.wiki page about him. According to LRT, he's the curator of the Vienuolis-Žukauskas Memorial Museum [lt] [2] (as of 2020). I would say that he is sufficiently reliable, especially considering how niche and little information we have for this topic. Kontrimavičius is active in looking at local history and has written for the Vilnius University [3], so I'd say that he's ok to use as a source. Cukrakalnis (talk) 13:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I wonder what sources Polish Wikipedia IP author used when writing their entry which stresses Polishness of the subject. Sadly, they did not say... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 13:45, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Cukrakalnis I see you removed from the lead that he was "associted with Lithuania and Poland", changing it to just "Lithuanian". Since we have a source for Lithuanian, I am not questioning that wording but I think restoring "associated with Poland" is supported by the very fact his biography is included in the Polish Biographical Dictionary. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 01:06, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The source quoted didn't say that he was connected to Poland, but now that you say that his mere inclusion in that source means he is connected to Poland, it makes more sense why you wrote that. Instead of re-adding that, I have added something more specific, which is the following: He was praised by the Polish priest Czesław Falkowski [pl] for his exemplary knowledge of the Polish language and for his stance against Russification. in this edit [4]. Cukrakalnis (talk) 10:04, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, I missed that detail (about his exemplary Polish...). Interesting phrase which actually might suggest that Polish was not his native language, if we read between the lines? But that's speculation... Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:55, 5 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 October 2023

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. I have found no consensus to move this page. Best, (closed by non-admin page mover) Reading Beans (talk) 18:12, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]


Józef AbelewiczJonas Juozapas Abelevičius – The person was a Lithuanian, born in Lithuania, who clearly had a good knowledge of the Lithuanian language because he was a proofreader for Lithuanian-language publications. There is not a single reliable source calling the person Polish (although pl.wiki calls him a Polish priest, it provides no source for it). In contrast, the reliable Universal Lithuanian Encyclopedia calls the priest Lithuanian [5]. Ergo, the priest should be called by his Lithuanian name instead of the Polish one. Cukrakalnis (talk) 12:26, 3 October 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. – robertsky (talk) 17:04, 10 October 2023 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 15:53, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

FYI: Obituary of Józef Abelewicz, "Słowo" 8 July 1882 (no. 150). Marcelus (talk) 21:34, 3 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good to add to EL I guess - thank you. It says "Father Józef Abelewicz, canon of the Vilnius cathedral and rector of the dietary seminary, died in Vilnius. He lived for 61 years and was a priest for 36 years." (original in Polish: "Ksiądz Józef Abelewicz, kanonikm katedy wileńskiej i rektor seminarium dieciezialnego, zmarł w Wilnie. Żył lat 61, w kapłaństwie 36.") Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 00:44, 4 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It may be noted that on 12 December 2009, two days after the creation of his article, the entry for "Józef Abelewicz, Polish theologian" was appended to the article delineating his birthplace, Anykščiai. That entry remained unchanged for nearly 14 years, until 30 September 2023, when it was revised to "Jonas Juozapas Abelevičius, Lithuanian priest". —Roman Spinner (talkcontribs) 09:03, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Darwinek whose 2009 edit you mentioned. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:20, 27 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.