Talk:Ireland/Archive 15

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Category:Former disputed islands

I added the above Cat and User:Dmcq reverted this. His reason per edit summary was "not what is meant by the category". There was a territorial dispute concerning part of the island of Ireland as recently as 1999. Why, then, does it not fall neatly into this category? Frenchmalawi (talk) 22:15, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Clearly it's for small islands and islets - down to "submerged reefs." Rockall, if and when that disupute is ever settled, would qualify. Ireland doesn't. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:25, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

why is it "clear" it's for "small islands and islets"? The category is former disputed "islands". The island of Ireland is an island. Frenchmalawi (talk) 12:27, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

This is actually a very difficult category, practically every single piece of land in the world has been disputed and fought over at some point but we can't just add every island in the world to this category. Canterbury Tail talk 13:11, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

If you have to apply 'logic' to try and show something then it isn't for Wikipedia, or at the very least don't start up discussions arguing for your latest idea you got over breakfast. It wastes little bits of peoples' lives. Find a citation saying Ireland was a disputed island. Dmcq (talk) 13:25, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

User talk:Canterbury Tail: Agree with what you say about every piece of land having been disputed. However, Ireland is an island and it was the subject of an active sovereignty dispute that was only resolved in 1999 under an international agreement. I'm not making up any of this. There are tonnes of sources out there User:Dmcq e.g. [1] which talks about the sovereignty dispute and talks of an "island-wide national right of self determination"; the "entire island". It refers to Ireland's constitution "claiming sovereignty over the entire island". This was the first source I came to. There are many, many others. I suspect the facts concerning the former sovereignty dispute on the island are pretty well known to those here on this discussion page. Why listing Ireland as a former disputed island is controversial, I don't know. The facts are so well known. The citations are plentiful. Frenchmalawi (talk) 00:30, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The citation does not say Ireland is a disputed island or that it ever has been. The UK does not say it has rights to the whole island and there never was a time it disputed control of the whole island with another government unless you're going to consider everyone who stands up saying they are starting a revolution as being a bona fide government. As I said before find a citation that specifically supports what you say. Less is more - all the words you write trying to make out that something is saying something else is simply evidence that it does not say it. If you find yourself writing a long justification just try also considering that you might be wrong. Dmcq (talk) 10:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Misattribution of Uragh stone circle

Your picture of Uragh stone circle early in the Ireland article states incorrectly that it is in Gleninchaquin Park. It is not and this may be verified via the gleninchaquin.com website. This stresses the information that the stone circle is not in the park. The Uragh stone circle is in.....Uragh!

Denis Healy — Preceding unsigned comment added by Denis Healy (talk • contribs) 14:28, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

The image

It needs to be replaced by a newer, HD one. This is 2017, everyone! 80.246.133.209 (talk) 06:09, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Exactly which image are you talking about? ww2censor (talk) 12:10, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Would apply to any that are low-resolution. Several of them are iffy (Dalriada, hanging, Carson signing, etc.). Several more are only medium-resolution but probably good enough (Newgrange, pasture, etc.).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  15:35, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Do you mean as it appears in the article or the original image in Commons? If the latter then that is a Wikipedia problem in how it displays images as thumbnails. It would be possible to have the image resolution depend on the display device but I don't suppose the Wikipedia software suports it yet. Dmcq (talk) 18:43, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

I mean that the underlying image's maximum resolution is poor, which translates to sub-optimal image quality even when inlined in the article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  21:33, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure that statement is actually true unless an file is displayed on screen at a resolution higher than the original file's resolution. ww2censor (talk) 23:07, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Do you mean that a problem is perceived by a reader in the images in the article rather than the original images? Dmcq (talk) 23:11, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

In some cases yes – several of them are grainy or blurry. But the distinction's not very relevant; we expect the images to be good quality at full size. The images as they appear in the article are just thumbnails, and we expect people to click on them.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  15:13, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Grainy and blurry? I wonder what your default image size is set to in your preference as that could account for poor display on your monitor. Some of the black and white images could indeed be better but that's all we have and unless you can find a better source, I think we are stuck with them as they been there for several years, most since the GA in 2010. You may be correct that some readers will click through but images are in an article to supplement the prose and provide a greater reader understanding of the topic, so the quality of the uploaded image is essentially unimportant in and of itself despite our best efforts to find higher resolution images. I've already found a few, somewhat higher resolution images and uploaded them but if you are so concerned about the actual file size perhaps you can find higher quality replacements which I can't. BTW, several years ago all geograph images were low resolution so they don't exist at a higher resolution. However, now geograph provides the ability to upload higher quality images there. It's just a thought, maybe contacting the original photographers might elicit some better versions or asking a local wikipedian to rephotograph locations would be a possibility but I would not hold my breath on that as I have waited over a year for a copyright change response on Flickr. ww2censor (talk) 15:56, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

Having a big argument about this is pointless and time-wasting. It's normal, everyday practice to replace low-end images with better ones over time as we find them. The anon didn't identify a specific one as particularly objectionable, so let's just move on.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  17:36, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

There is no argument. I'm just pointing out some of the issues that arise from the comments but I absolutely agree that finding better quality images is desirable all around. ww2censor (talk) 17:52, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

FYI: I've uploaded a good high quality version of File:Sackville Street (Dublin) after the 1916 Easter Rising.JPG discovered at archive.org. ww2censor (talk) 16:39, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2017

Change "domesticated animals such cattle and sheep" to "domesticated animals such as cattle and sheep" 128.189.135.3 (talk) 23:08, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:16, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2017

Change "435 0BC" to "4350 BC" 128.189.135.3 (talk) 23:10, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 23:17, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 29 November 2017

Extended content

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. The result of the move request was: Discussion relating to the naming of Ireland articles must occur at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration by order of the Arbitration Committee. ~~~~ – Ireland can be confusing between the island and the country. For this reason, I recommend renaming the article on the island of Ireland to Ireland (island), keeping the current title for the country of Ireland or renaming it to Ireland (country), and the title Ireland for the disambiguation page. 2601:183:101:58D0:C896:13E0:F1BD:A98B (talk) 11:12, 29 November 2017 (UTC) Oppose - as per the dozen of these conversations over the last 12 years. Ireland the island is overwhelmingly the primary subject without any dispute. Ireland the state is secondary and any further disambiguation a very distant third. Additionally read the notes at the top of this page as to where to have this conversation, there is a large box that details how a page move conversation is to be conducted and where (not here). Canterbury Tail talk 12:24, 29 November 2017 (UTC) Oppose Canterbury Tail Sums my opinion up perfectly. Wikimucker (talk) 14:31, 29 November 2017 (UTC) Oppose As above. Hohenloh + 15:37, 29 November 2017 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. I have to say it is refreshing to see a different proposal that isn't about moving the state to Ireland. Having said that I also oppose it. It is not the islands fault that in English it is known as Ireland and that a state adopted its name. Mabuska (talk) 17:59, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

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Should Lisburn not be listed among the 10 most populous areas?

The official population of Lisburn is 71,000 according to it's own wiki page with link to city council pdf. Although this falls within the Belfast metro area, it is not part of the Belfast urban area statistic. Captainbeecher (talk) 10:00, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

IPA pronunciation

The pronunciation /ˈaɪərlənd/ is, what Americans say. The majority of people say including the Irish say /ˈaɪrlənd/.

Semi-protected edit request on 22 November 2017

Change "Ireland is the second-largest island of the British Isles, the third-largest in Europe, and the twentieth-largest on Earth" to "Ireland is the third-largest island in Europe, and the twentieth-largest on Earth" Cgr2000ie (talk) 20:58, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

 Not done Consensus needed for changes of this nature. Discuss, get consensus, and request again. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:03, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

"British Isles" RfC

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Should the current text "Ireland is the second-largest island of the British Isles, the third-largest in Europe, and the twentieth-largest on Earth" be trimmed to "Ireland is the third-largest island in Europe, and the twentieth-largest on Earth"? 22:17, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support, since the additional stat is superfluous, and tends to offend the average Irish person. Ireland isn't generally judged specifically in comparison to the UK as part of something. While that set of islands has the unfortunate name "British Isles" in most sources, it's not particularly meaningful. By way of comparison, the article on Portugal doesn't say it's the second-largest country in Iberia, and there's not even a socio-political reason not to; it's just trivia.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  07:19, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
• Support - unnecessary, per SMcCandlish. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:34, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Comparing to Iberia is inherently wrong. The term is widely used when refering to the group of islands and has been so for centuries and has no bearing on geopolitical entities or whoever rules them. Ireland is the second largest island in the British Isles, fact, and that term originates from the ancient world. Clearly politically motivated request. Mabuska ^(talk) 09:41, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. Comparison to the island of Britain is common and has been for a long time. And contrary to the frequently quoted claim, we Irish do not get upset by the term ‘British Isles’. It’s the correct geographical name.--Dmol (talk) 21:38, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
• Support per SMcCandlish. Ceoil (talk) 21:40, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

  Comment, is it not against Wikipedia policy or guidelines simply stating per someone else rather than providing your own arguments? Pretty sure it is enshrined or mentioned somewhere, and even if that is not the case it would be nice to have actual arguments given for the sake of consensus building etc. As it is this is simply a straw poll that shows no consensus or efforts to build one. Mabuska ^(talk) 22:27, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

  Nonsense, it is common practice and there is no requirement to repeat or create something new if it has already been said. It is slightly intimidatory to make such a comment as well so you might like to strike it (and this response if you do) ----Snowded ^TALK 07:14, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

  Actually I won't strike it as I have seen it stated though for the life of me I can't find where it was at. If it can be found and it turns out to simply be an essay and not policy then aye I'd strike it but not until then. Mabuska ^(talk) 12:21, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

  Oh very well if your going to be so tiresome. There are different relativities or contexts that can be mentioned; the British Isles or the continent, as SMcCandlish argued, and seems to have been lost here. Ceoil (talk) 01:21, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

  You can't find it because it never existed and you shouldn't make claims for policy if you can't back them up ----Snowded ^TALK 07:53, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

  Comment I believe it used to be part of the Not Vote or AfD guidance pages as advice regarding if you don't have anything new to add to the conversation then you don't need to post as the outcome isn't a vote. However it was never a policy, just a suggestion adn an attempt at not clogging up AfDs and similar with pointless noise. Canterbury Tail talk 20:46, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

• Support Even without the British Isles, the statement is true. The present statement is overly long. The Banner talk 22:59, 23 November 2017 (UTC)
  • It would be sufficient to shorten it to "Ireland is the third-largest island in Europe". The Banner talk 14:06, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
• Oppose - the rfc did not show all the wiki links there, which is the value of showing each relationship. The UK relationship being the most immediate and prominent, would be improper to not lead with. I could see putting the whole line lower in the article as geography/relationship judged secondary, but would not cut out any of the wiki links. Markbassett (talk) 06:20, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

  The article is about the island, not about political units such as the UK. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:13, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

  Ghmyrtle - on the contrary, the article is significantly UK or British: Northern Ireland is UK, with additional article content about the period of Union, links to British Energy and economic ties, Royal Charter of the major cities, the primary and one of the official languages being English, shared cultural history and even the origins of Guiness. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:19, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose The article is a geographical one and BI is one of the most common terms. ----Snowded ^TALK 06:41, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Even if the sentence were too long, which it is not, this could be remedied simply by rearranging the punctuation. Other than catering for those with political motives, there is no reason for removing the term 'British Isles'. If the sentence does need shortening, there is probably less merit in keeping term 'third-largest in Europe'. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:50, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose It is factual and not overly long. Why would you remove a perfectly salient fact. Lets keep the politics in a box, out of the way. It has been part of the British Isles, relatively speaking, since time began. It is a geo article after all. scope_creep (talk) 11:12, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Seems to be a political motive behind the proposal. Nothing wrong with status quo. Mooretwin (talk) 11:18, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose I think it gives good context for readers rather than having Ireland floating somewhere in the middle of nowhere around Europe. Dmcq (talk) 11:41, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
• Comment Actually, i think that the first two factoids are unnecessary, but if any one were to be removed for reasons of clarity or brevity, rather than political or personal distaste motives, probably the European one should go, leaving the more relevant ("British Isles") and more complete ("on Earth") comparisons. I am not formally opposing, however, as i am primarily of British descent, and don't wish my (potential, not actual, i believe) political POV to influence the discussion. Happy days, Lindsay^Hello 12:03, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
• Comment if anything is stating 20th largest in the world less important than 3rd largest in Europe? Mabuska ^(talk) 12:24, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

  Agree, who cares whether it is the tenth, twentieth or the fiftieth smallest? I'm not even sure what is counted as an island in world terms. Dmcq (talk) 12:57, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

  I agree wholeheartedly with this. Ceoil (talk) 10:07, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose as Ireland is the second largest island in the British Isles. GoodDay (talk) 13:51, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per Snowded and others. These are geographical articles, using geographical terms. People have a right to be offended; they don't have a right to not be offended. And I find it curious that the call for an RfC is made by someone's first ever edit? Clearly originating from a politically-motivated sock. Now - what nationalist socks have recently been blocked... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:36, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

  It was an IP making a semi-protected edit request. SMcCandlish changed it to a RFC. Ceoil (talk) 03:01, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

  Ah, ok. Bit of an over-reaction to an IP's request, though, IMO. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 08:52, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

  Huh what? It was a rather polite suggestion made on the talk page, then people started voting. Ceoil (talk) 10:00, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

  But then again, this is all rather a trivial, and I don't really care either way. Ceoil (talk) 10:44, 25 November 2017 (UTC)

  What I meant was I think it's an over-reaction to open a full RfC based off an edit-request that's apparently someone's first ever edit. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:54, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

  I had no idea how many edits had been made by the requester. I just noticed that the edit request was denied for lack of discussion, so I opened said discussion as a procedural matter. I recalled something like this having been raised before, and people being sore about it periodically, so it seemed worth re-assessing what the consensus actually might be and whether it's a strong one, which appears to be the case.  :-)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ<  17:15, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

• Support Ireland is not West Britain.Etruscanman114 (talk) 17:03, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

  Nowhere does it mention West Britain. ww2censor (talk) 17:46, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

  Striking !vote of blocked sock. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:59, 26 November 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose the current prose seems to strike a reasonable balance. ww2censor (talk) 17:46, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose current description shows a reasonable balance between various points of view. Brough87 (talk) 00:33, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose Common usage does place Ireland in the context of the British Isles. Additionally, in reality it is the second largest of these islands. Please keep this information in the current statement.Horst59 (talk) 19:17, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose The British Isles is the most significant grouping here - as it is a significant part of the archipelago. If at all we should strike Europe (and to a lesser degree the world) - Ireland's ranking as 3rd in Europe (and not 2nd) is due to Iceland whose inclusion in Europe, while customary (but not universal), is not a clear-cut thing - geologically it is not part of the continent.Icewhiz (talk) 07:36, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

  Are you sure? Considering it straddles the European and Northern Amercian plates says that it is part in Europe geologicially. Mabuska ^(talk) 09:50, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

  You are refuting yourself in saying that "it straddles the European and Northern Amercian plates" - it is part of both. For cultural reasons, as well as distance from the main landmass (but not however from Greenland which generally seen as part of NA) - it is generally considered part of Europe - but this isn't a "100% thing".Icewhiz (talk) 10:57, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

  Maybe my style of English is different from yours but when we say straddle over here it generally means both so I'm not refuting myself. You are considering you said it was not part of the continent but now you are saying part of it is. Regardless it is highly off-topic. Indeed the RfC should be closed seeing their is clearly no consensus for change. Mabuska ^(talk) 10:41, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

  I will show due respect and abjectly bow down to those who can trace their lineage way before the the Fir Bolg to when the Highland Boundary Fault formed. ;-) Dmcq (talk) 12:42, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

  Indeed - can we get a snow close? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:25, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. It's common, and helpful to readers to mention this type of information in articles about islands in island chains. ---- Patar knight - ^chat/_{contributions} 05:41, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support I agree that it's long and care should be taken regarding placing Ireland within the British Isles, as its geographically accurate, but could present POV problems given the history between nations on the two islands. South Nashua (talk) 16:09, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - The length is somewhat long but we shouldn't remove factually correct content - I don't really see a valid reason to remove. –Davey2010^Talk 19:10, 13 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - (Summoned by bot) A logical factual progression: country, continent, world. Not strictly a policy basis for my !vote, but I also suspect a political motive in the elision. DonFB (talk) 04:48, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

• Comment part of "British Isles", is not the most easily understood or clearest description of where Ireland is. Would not a clearer description be 'located to the west of mainland GB'. To describe it simply as the Xth largest European island seems too vague. The use of an unqualified "British Isles" to include Ireland is now somewhat anachronistic even in GB. We should be using the most universally, and easily, understood description, and - even though the article is about the island, rather than the country - it is needlessly confusing to imply that it is "British". Pincrete (talk) 16:03, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
• Support Having foolisly not looked at the article before leaving my comment, I see that the article already describes Ireland's position relative to EngScWales. Because of the ambiguous nature of "British Isles" as a geographic and political term, the inclusion is unnec and would be likely to be confusing to the level of reader needing this basic info as to where/what Ireland is. Pincrete (talk) 16:19, 17 December 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose The information seems informative and useful. Darkfrog24 (talk) 01:48, 20 December 2017 (UTC)
• Comparison for context Canadians are not Americans but nobody would argue that Canada is a part of the geographical land mass known as North America. It in itself was America long before the United States adopted American as it denonym. Likewise the Irish are not British but Ireland is a part of the geographical land mass known as the British Isles. Again the term British predates the United Kingdom adopting British as it's denonym. Great Britain is not so called because the British think they are fantastic. It's so called because it is the largest of the British isles. Those who are offended by this should direct their ire at the Greeks and Romans as they named the islands long before the concept long before the United Kingdom existed. Captainbeecher (talk) 10:19, 7 February 2018 (UTC)
• SMcCandlish, time to close this RfC? ;-) Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 14:35, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

  Or it can just archive naturally; it's clearly a WP:SNOWBALL, so no formal closure is needed.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  17:56, 8 February 2018 (UTC)

• invalid Comparison . You cannot compare an archipelago located in the continent of Europe to a Continent of the americas theres really no comparison in anyway at all, landmass is described by most definitions as a continent or other large body of land not broken up by ocean or sea ,so the Irish and british isles cannot be a landmass , just because a term predates something doesnt mean the term is the same as it was originally used if that was the case we should call the irish Scots and ireland Scotland or scotia terms change often in a few generations can mean something completely different let alone millennias ,who decides Ireland is part of the british isles shouldnt the inhabitants get a say in what terms are used for their island to suggest otherwise is Orwellian. The vast majority of the population find the term offensive despite what the oppose commenter said .To suggest that forginers get to decide what ireland is called over the local population is down right ridiculous btw especially when the term is clearly rooted in British imperialism and is offensive .the term British isles only dates back to the 15th century it was created by british writers as political propaganda upon the discovery of old greek and roman documents in which both these islands were called the pretanic isles ,however later the islands were called Ériu for Ireland, and "Albion" for present-day Great Britain these native names were probably the actual names for Ireland and Britain with the former being generic names by the greeks who didnt have any meaningful contact with the inhabitants yet, the term used by the greeks was never in common usage it only existed in their writings and was out of use for over a thousand years and never used by the irish , not a single document from the medieval period uses the term , no im afraid the term british isles was created by british imperialistic writers for political purposes and survives today partly as a revanchist term not simply a geographical one, regardless of its debatable supposed historical origins.most of the opposed sides comments are utterly ridiculous ,stuff about Guinness?. l haven't bothered to waded through them ,but the point is having the term British isles on the page is offensive clutters the page up from more important specifics and doesn't add anything of worth . so its clear that it shouldn't be added back. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.107.8.114 (talk) 01:50, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Despite your late alteration of your text, the vast majority just does not care about it. With the exception of staunch Republicans, I have never met anybody who was offended by the term. The Banner talk 07:00, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
• SMcCandlish the snow isn't melting! :P Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 07:37, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

  Yeah, I have no idea why this has not been closed yet. The consensus is clear.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:19, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

  Closure requested at WP:AN. The Banner talk 15:26, 7 June 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Despite the consensus not to remove British Isles, an editor went ahead and did so here: [2]. Could this edit please be reverted, otherwise the above discussion serves no point. Thanks. 86.133.134.23 (talk) 17:42, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, I had forgotten to revert that. Thanks for the warning. The Banner talk 17:53, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Great. Thanks for that. I notice there's also some 'era inconsistency' as you might call it. Not sure if it was the same editor who replaced BC with BCE, even though the rest of the article uses BC/AD. Maybe not a big issue, but for consistency, could this be changed back to BC (in the header)?. Thanks again. 86.133.134.23 (talk) 18:02, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

Why do you not register an account? Much easier and in fact more anonymous than an IP... The Banner talk 18:37, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2018

Some of the historical visitors and early visitors were Phoenicians and Spaniards. https://archive.org/stream/rervmanglicarvms00will#page/n351/mode/2up William, of Malmesbury; Henry, of Huntingdon; Roger, of Hoveden; Ethelwerd, d 998?; Ingulf, 1030?-1109; Savile, Henry; Bishop, George; Newbery, Ralph; Barker, Robert (1596). Rervm anglicarvm scriptores post Bedam praecipvi. Harold B. Lee Library. Londoni : excudebant G. Bishop, R. Nyberie, & R. Barker. p. 172.

an there are my other authors like stabo etc... saying pretty much William malmesbury (talk) 18:56, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: edit requests must include complete and specific descriptions of the request, that is, specify a verbatim copy of the text that should be placed in the article. Please change X is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form Please change X to Y Spintendo      20:21, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

It already talks about people coming from Iberia. There is no evidence of any Phoenecian influence in DNA or culture. The Phoenecians seem to have confined themselves to the Mediterranean and not gone out into the Atlantic. They didn't even seem to go to the north of the Mediterranean much. Dmcq (talk) 10:52, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

That last is dubious; they may well have reached as far as Scandinavia, based on some linguistic evidence. But it has no effect on this discussion, because there's no evidence of any Phoenician influence on Irish DNA or culture, as you say.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:32, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 July 2018

Original text says: During the last glacial period, and up until about 10,000 BC, most of Ireland was periodically covered in ice. Sea levels were lower and Ireland, like Great Britain, formed part of continental Europe. By 16,000 BC

Correction: "10,000 BC" should be changed since it should be before 16,000 BC. Earevalop (talk) 11:10, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

They're unrelated statements. Ireland and GB separated around 16,000 BCE. Ireland remained icy until around 10,000 BCE.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:03, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

Church of England anachronism?

This sentence needs either clarification or correction: "A version of the Magna Carta (the Great Charter of Ireland), substituting Dublin for London and Irish Church for Church of England, was published in 1216 and the Parliament of Ireland was founded in 1297."

In common parlance, the term "Church of England" refers to the church that broke off from the Roman Catholic church under Henry VIII who did not exist in 1216, making it impossible that the Church of England existed in 1216. Please clarify the meaning of the phrase "Church of England" with relation to the Magna Carta or eliminate this claim.

Current text: A version of the Magna Carta (the Great Charter of Ireland), substituting Dublin for London and Irish Church for Church of England, was published in 1216 and the Parliament of Ireland was founded in 1297.

Proposed text: A version of the Magna Carta (the Great Charter of Ireland), substituting Dublin for London and Irish Church for English Church, was published in 1216 and the Parliament of Ireland was founded in 1297.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.247.254.125 (talk)

 Done Corrected Church of England for Catholic Church as at the time (1216) the C of E had not separated from Cath Church until 1534 Waddie96 (talk) 08:34, 13 August 2018 (UTC)

Proper name of the country

In the second paragraph the text reads, "Politically, Ireland is divided between the Republic of Ireland (officially named Ireland)". If the country is officially named Ireland why is it called "the Republic of Ireland"? If the writer wishes to designate the republican status of the country then he should write, Politically, Ireland is divided between Ireland (a republic), etc. It is an insult to Irish people to have their country referred to as the republic of Ireland just as an article on France would be improper to refer to France as the Republic of France or the United States of America as the Republic of the United States of America.OrodesIII (talk) 02:37, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

 Not done I'm ignoring the complaints about the title of the Republic of Ireland article, the OP has found the WP:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration page to discuss them. Regarding the specific sentence: the English reads much better to not state that "Ireland is divided between Ireland". power~enwiki (π, ν) 03:15, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

By the way it is the French Republic not France. ;-) Dmcq (talk) 09:16, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 September 2018

VascoDev (talk) 16:03, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

Just over 4.8 million live in the Republic of Ireland and just over 1.8 million live in Northern Ireland.

I think this is a request to change just under 4.8 to just over 4.8. We'd need a good source. Dmcq (talk) 16:25, 6 September 2018 (UTC)

British Isles

The topic as to whether Ireland is part of the British Isles is controversial, as referenced in the page https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute. Referring to Ireland as the second largest of the British Isles stems from a colonial view of the area and is not supported by the majority of the inhabitants of the island. The sentence should just read "Ireland is the the third-largest island in Europe, and the twentieth-largest on Earth — Preceding unsigned comment added by D8player (talk • contribs) 12:13, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

There was a discussion about this less than a year ago at Talk:Ireland/Archive_15#"British_Isles"_RfC and the decision then was it was fine. Have you got new information or a good reason why the decision might change now? Dmcq (talk) 12:45, 7 September 2018 (UTC)

Hi Dmcq, thanks for drawing attention to the discussion, I had not seen it before. I indeed do not have any new information other than a dissenting opinion. The main points raised by the opposers of the change was that the term "British Isles" is well recognised and hence accepted. The point I would raise is that it is not a term that is in any significant way accepted by the majority of the population of the island, nor indeed by the government of the south.

Responding to questions from TheJournal.ie, the Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) stated that the two islands are commonly called “Britain and Ireland”. In the same article, the then Irish Minister for Foreign Affairs was quoted as saying "The British Isles is not an officially recognised term in any legal or inter-governmental sense. It is without any official status. The Government, including the Department of Foreign Affairs, does not use this term." http://www.thejournal.ie/is-ireland-british-isles-northern-ireland-europe-islands-1140112-Oct2013/.

In addition, I would argue that adding that it is the second largest of the British Isles is both unnecessary and inaccurate, as the island of Ireland is not British. — Preceding unsigned comment added by D8player (talk • contribs) 12:32, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

For an unrecognised term, they sure use it often enough search on main site. And this used to be higher, there are lots of links in the archives of Irish government use that have unfortunately been redacted and altered over time. Canterbury Tail talk 13:33, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

I think you are mixing geography with politics, bit like the Irish Sea is not all Irish. MilborneOne (talk) 12:44, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

It's a geographic term not some political term. Before the Good Friday Agreement the Irish government was trying to deny any UK involvement in Ireland and the UK was refusing to acknowledge the name of the state and the government statement is just left over action from all that. Wikipedia is based on world figures but if you can provide some reliable source showing some decent proportion in Ireland actually care about this I'm sure it could be changed. (Though the government phrase 'These islands' might not be the most appropriate substitution!) But just your statement is not enough evidence. Dmcq (talk) 13:07, 8 September 2018 (UTC)

Image caption

ImprovedWikiImprovment insists on changing the caption on the infobox image form "Satellite image of Ireland, October 2010" to "The island in October 2010" (here and here). This is presumably because he thinks that calling Ireland "Ireland" is wrong, though his pretext is that "people know it’s a satielite [sic] image of Ireland". The changed caption is ludicrous, (a) because it makes it sound like a little offshore island and (b) because it suggests that it changes from year to year. The earlier caption was fine and was stable for over four years. Disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point is against policy. Scolaire (talk) 14:28, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

@Scolaire:You presumed wrong; obviously the island is called Ireland. The point is that people know that the lead image of the article “Ireland” is going to be a picture of Ireland. My point per WP:CAP is that the information I removed is obvious. IWI (chat) 14:33, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

I’m not sure how you get that idea. How does it make it seem little? Subjective opinion<Policy. Take a quick read of this essay. IWI (chat) 14:39, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Actually, four years was a gross undertatement. Some variation of "image of Ireland" has been in the caption since 16 January 2005. I think consensus trumps one person's subjective interpretation of WP:CAP. Scolaire (talk) 15:27, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

So you’re saying that it isn’t obvious that the lead image would be a picture of Ireland and not some other island?? It’s not subjective; “clearly identifies the subject of the picture, without detailing the obvious“ - WP:CAP IWI (chat) 15:47, 26 October 2018 (UTC) Why do we need a date at all as (as you said) the island doesn’t change. This is why no image is needed at all (like Great Britain). IWI (chat) 15:53, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

• Oops “caption” not image. IWI (chat) 15:56, 26 October 2018 (UTC)″

The “it’s been like that for years” argument is not valid; vandalism can stand for years if unnoticed. IWI (chat) 16:03, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Not on an article like this one, with 1,315 watchers. Scolaire (talk) 16:13, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

And anyway, how can you be sure that all readers would recognise the picture as a satellite photograph? It could be an artist's rendition of a map. And how is "the island" more informative than "Ireland"? Scolaire (talk) 16:31, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

That’d be one hell of a rendition. Neither is more informative than the other it’s just one states obvious information. EEng explains it in WP:ASTONISHME. IWI (chat) 16:47, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

So a caption saying "the island" under a picture of an island is not stating the obvious? EEng's edit was reasonable. Yours was not. Hopefully the matter is now closed. Scolaire (talk) 17:11, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

Good. WP:CAP does not mean that all redundant words have to be eliminated as in the "Fresh fish sold here today" joke. Dmcq (talk) 17:33, 26 October 2018 (UTC)

• Lucky I looked on the talk page before replacing the satellite image. I can't find the old talk....and I mean old 2005 or so....but I remember it was about how the image should show the political divide..... this is to match the text in the lead. Does anyone else think the map should representative of the text right beside ? it's a bit odd to have a statement then have to search the article to figure out what the Divide is. Satellite image is nice but this isn't a geography of ....article.--Moxy (talk) 15:55, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

It's pretty clear to me. The first paragraph tells you it's an island and the satellite image shows you that. The article is about the island and not about the politics, so that information is not the primary essence of the article. Do we really have to show a political division image in the WP:LEDE? I don't think so. ww2censor (talk) 20:46, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Change BC to BCE

Some of the date references use "BC" and some use "BCE". I suggest changing all of the "BC" to "BCE". Edsall57 (talk) 21:29, 6 November 2018 (UTC) edsall57

I have the single occurrence of BCE changed in BC. The Banner talk 21:40, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Agree BC and AD is the standard obviously used in this article. Dmcq (talk) 10:32, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

British Isles again

Putting the independent nation of Ireland under dominion of Britain in name is a political act. Usage as a geographical term is incorrect, just because something is commonly done does not make it right (consider widespread use of the word irregardless). Your main evidence listed above refers to an article with an editing history of people interested in the British Isles, who are a distinct category from people interested in Ireland. The incorrect usage of British Isles is so popular because of the colonial legacy that England′s brutal and violent history as well as the small ratio of people who care about the correct usage of the word compared the vast majority of people who do not care. Why is it incorrect? Well, Great Britain refers to England, Scotland, and Wales (*SPECIAL NOTE* Great Britain does not even include Northern Ireland). British means of Britain and referring to an island as British is simply incorrect. Furthermore, insisting to call Ireland a British Isle is identity erasure and obviously NOT NEUTRAL. Given the mission of Wikipedia to spread knowledge and not misinformation, it is a moral imperative to make this page factual. The very repetition of the argument is evidence towards its innaccuracy. Lucyimhom (talk) 04:21, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

You confuse the political status with the geographical term. This article is about a geographical island in its geographical context. The Banner talk 10:05, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

An acceptable compromise would be removing it from the initial paragraph and adding a section about British Isles, explaining the controversy. Some analogies to further illustrate my point: Korea and Japan are located in physical proximity. Similarly, Japan had used violence to control the people and land of Korea. If Japan and the rest of the world began to refer to Japan and Korea together as the Japanese Imperial Isles and published widely used maps, that would not make it correct or accurate. Another, more tenuous connection but obviously related if you are familiar with the Pyramid of Hate: the US constitution once listed slaves as 3/5ths of a person. This was a highly regarded, widely used document denoting a fact about the legal (not political) designation of slaves.Lucyimhom (talk) 04:42, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

You confuse the political status with the geographical term. This article is about a geographical island in its geographical context. The Banner talk 10:05, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Here is an article from the Irish Post. In this article both an Irish newspaper and Cambridge Professor acknowledge that many Irish disagree with the term. While the paper seems to acknowledge term it worth noting, that the paper′s source is a representative of the British Mapping Agency, further underscoring my claims that calling Ireland a British Isle is a form of neocolonialism. Additionally, the first and last paragraph of the article point out the controversy of using the term; while the newspaper is attempting to be unbiased, it shows that the Irish press is dedicated to presenting counterpoints to their explanation of the word. Another Irish Times article (widely read newspaper in Ireland) discussing how an Irish atlas company began removing the word from its publications in 2006 after complaints to the Ministry of Education. A 2017 web article about outraged caused by a different article by the non-Irish author calling Ireland a British Isle. In this article he asks, ẅhat should the collection of islands be called?

In order to keep the incorrect information, I would like someone to find Irish based evidence that the term is a respected geographic term, as claimed above. Lucyimhom (talk) 05:13, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Not sure it works like that here you have to make your case and then gain consensus to change it other editors dont need to support the status quo which already has consensus. MilborneOne (talk) 09:27, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

@Lucyimhom: Wikipedia has an article on the British Isles naming dispute. It wouldn't be appropriate to rehash it in the Ireland article. The sentence in the lead was the subject of this quite lengthy discussion a year ago. The participants were all well aware of the arguments. As you can see from the close (the box in the top right-hand corner), there was a consensus not to change that sentence. It was discussed again only two months ago, and no new consensus emerged then. While there is no harm in you raising the question again, in the absence of any sudden rise in support for change, there would be little point in pushing it. Scolaire (talk) 16:51, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Interesting that the only publication from Ireland went and quoted Wikipedia for anything about there being a problem in Ireland! It seems people outside Ireland go on about that or the Famine a lot more. But they do make a point, Wikipedia should reflect views from around the world not just in Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 20:41, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Climate

The table of record high and low temperatures is pathetically laughable. How do records give anyone a good idea of the month by month expected temperature? They don't. I can only conclude that most likely their presence is intended to mislead. If you're going to have a table of monthly temperatures, you should (obviously) have average lows & highs and preferably average temperatures.72.16.99.93 (talk) 13:24, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 December 2018

As an Irish Native am offended that it says Ireland is part of the British Isle, this is a colonial view, its political and it should be changed... its not a British isle but simple an Irish Isle. Ailín MacAmhalaí (talk) 19:52, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

This was discussed extensively in this discussion earlier this year. The consensus would need to change (likely with another such well-publicized, extensive discussion) in order to reach a consensus to make a change. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 20:17, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

British Isles (plural) is the commonly used term for these piles of rocks off the coast of Europe. Not likely to change any time soon.Charles (talk) 22:08, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

To the snowflake's point: If it can be shown that a significant fraction of the population of Ireland prefer another geographical name, then shouldn't it (at least) be mentioned? (His/her post indicates s/he apparently believes Ireland is a single island, which casts doubt on the value of any claim made.)72.16.99.93 (talk) 13:38, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

It's all discussed in the British Isles article, it's not relevant to this article and best dealt with elsewhere. Canterbury Tail talk 14:27, 18 December 2018 (UTC)

Add country code "IE" to info box

In the info box the country code of Ireland is not given. Ireland has the ISO 3166 country code "IE" (see https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/List_of_ISO_3166_country_codes). Please add the country code "IE" to the info box. NaitSirch (talk) 12:21, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

1) Wikipedia cannot be used as a source and 2) .ie is the code for Ireland the country (i.e. Republic of Ireland, not Ireland the island. This article is about the island which encompasses more than just the Republic of Ireland. Codes are for countries not landmasses, i.e. North America, Great Britain, South East Asia etc don't have codes. Canterbury Tail talk 18:27, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Agree, this article is about the island not the state. There was a little fuzziness but nowadays it is classified as a country code and should just be associated with the Irish state even though people in Northern Ireland can use it. Dmcq (talk) 21:54, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: per above comments. NiciVampireHeart 09:44, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Oh dear, both of you are totally right. I came across this site from a link in Single Euro Payments Area thinking that this was the site for the state. Sorry for the noise. If it's desired I'll delete my request. NaitSirch (talk) 21:18, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

No problem. Something good came of it. Thanks for fixing the link in the other article. Scolaire (talk) 09:50, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

MfD nomination of Portal:Ireland

Portal:Ireland, a page whose scope is the same as this article, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; you may participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Ireland and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Portal:Ireland during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 19:52, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Island vs state

When people speak of "Ireland" in their daily conversations, aren't they often referring to the Republic of Ireland? Is there a specific reason that this article is for the island? --Matt Smith (talk) 08:26, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes people often mean the Republic of Ireland. They also often mean the island. There are two considerations that mean the decision was made the way it was. Firstly the reference to the island seems to be more common. Secondly there is an officially approved description of the state which is fine for disambiguation purposes on Wikipedia, and it is for instance pretty much standard in everyday life to use it in contexts where Northern Ireland might also be referred to. Dmcq (talk) 10:26, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

In articles where the state is being referred to and it isn't likely to cause confusion the standard on Wikipedia is to use [[Republic of Ireland|Ireland]] in the first reference to Ireland so its official name is shown but it redirects to the Republic of Ireland article. This is described more fully in WP:IMOS#Use of Ireland and Republic of Ireland. Dmcq (talk) 10:49, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for explaining. --Matt Smith (talk) 13:21, 8 May 2019 (UTC)

Ireland - Scotia - Hibernia

This page is historically incorrect. The name (Ireland) did not exist pre 4th century, nor did the term (Irish).

When discussing a nation at a specific time, you must apply the names and terms correctly. Ireland was first known as Scotia, this is the first historically and officially recorded name for the isle, also Hibernia. When talking about Irish history, you must apply to correct names that applied at the time.

For example, when historians talk about ancient England, they use the name (Britannia) along with others and England. The Irish people did not exist during roman times, Ireland did not exist during roman times.

Scotia and Hibernia should be added to the list of names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:C7F:C49:1800:A0CD:A47A:5873:17A2 (talk) 20:05, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

This article is about the island called Ireland. It is not about a nation. There are separate articles about Scotia and Hibernia. The name Hibernia is mentioned here as a Roman name for Ireland an its derivation given. Dmcq (talk) 22:29, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 August 2019

Please make it clearer Ireland is no longer in the UK in the section about the british isles as it makes it seem it is part of the UK Daniel McCashin (talk) 16:12, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Please read the introduction, part of Ireland (the island) is in the United Kingdom. MilborneOne (talk) 16:47, 1 August 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 September 2019

IRELAND is not part of the BRITISH Isles,or ever was, referring to any part of Ireland as British is offensive to the Gaelic people and their ancient culture. 2001:BB6:1379:7B58:A160:FB37:4185:E94B (talk) 17:25, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Sorry declined, you need to read the large number of talk page discussions on the matter. MilborneOne (talk) 17:29, 23 September 2019 (UTC)

Highest Point

Carrauntoohil is actually 1038.6m like it says on its wiki page not 1041m. Should be rounded to 1039m for the Ireland page but it needs to be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ColdDawn (talk • contribs) 09:58, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Good article criteria

This article is in better shape than Scotland when it was delisted earlier this year, but there are significant problems with the GA criteria. The biggest issue is verifiability: just look at the cleanup tags on the article, unsourced statements, etc. Lesser concerns are that the lede does not meet MOS:LEDE, and the overreliance on official sources for things like the economy may be an issue with neutrality. I am willing to work on improving the article, but it's a monumental task and without a lot of work this article would fail at GA reassessment. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 19:13, 25 October 2019 (UTC)

Ireland

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: Delist Consensus here to delist, with verifiability being a major issue AIRcorn (talk) 08:40, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

This article was promoted in 2010 and has not been reviewed since. It is in better shape than Scotland when it was delisted earlier this year, but there are significant problems with the GA criteria. The biggest issue is verifiability: just look at the cleanup tags on the article and unsourced statements. Lesser concerns are that the lede does not meet MOS:LEDE, and the overreliance on official sources for things like the economy may be an issue with neutrality. I am willing to work on improving the article, but it's a monumental task and without a lot of work this article will not meet the GA criteria. Fiamh ^{(talk, contribs)} 08:17, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

 Comment:: I would have thought if the nominator showed some actual willingness to improve the article they would have done more than just one small citation fix, instead of doing what seems like drive-by tagging with a load of citation missing tags. It might have been a courtesy to discuss this with some of the most prolific editors before starting this request. Right now I have too many other things going on to devote time to this. ww2censor (talk) 11:14, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Ww2censor, if the article does not meet GA criteria it will have to be delisted. It does not matter who has edited it. GA reassessment can be done by non-involved editors. buidhe 00:15, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

• Definitely delist in this condition. It's a long way from meeting criteria 2 for Wikipedia:Verifiability. The whole section on politics is almost entirely uncited! There are also major sourcing lapses under history and culture, and the economic history section has been tagged for a while.Homemade Pencils (talk) 00:41, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

Edit not conforming to year notation policy

Could someone reverse this out-of-policy edit [3], described by the editor as a "typo". 5.81.164.76 (talk) 21:26, 29 October 2019 (UTC)

Done, per MOS:ERA (which says in a nutshell, don't change the era notation used unless there is a very convincing reason and with consensus). --Red King (talk) 11:56, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Many thanks. 5.81.164.76 (talk) 12:00, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Science section is missing some key Irish philosophers and scientists

Off the top of my head, Patrick d'Arcy, who made substantial contributions to dynamics, George Berkeley and John Toland is another. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.242.31 (talk) 17:34, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

Ireland is an Irish Isle

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

This is a discussion from April 2019. I hereby declare it closed

---

Please remove the reference to British Isles

Ireland is NOT a British Isle

Only British and West British people use this term

Irish people do not (unless they are West British)

Britain occupied Ireland for centuries and still does. As part of this, the education system was developed to introduce as much britishness as possible, eliminate Gaelic Ireland and kill the language. This policy has been successful in many ways but not totally. As Winston Churchill said "The problem with the Irish is they refuse to be British"

Part of this policy is the political term "British Isles" and the disingenuous attempt to claim it is a geographical term and millions of schoolchildren have been "educated" that Ireland is a British Isles, but "sure its only a geographical term". In an atlas you have a Political Map and a Geographical/Natural Map. British Isles appears on political Maps, not the other ones

So, if you are Irish and editor of a page about Ireland please change this mistake

If you are not Irish I suggest you pass ownership of the page to someone who is

Thank You — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:7C46:8258:70FA:B9FC:A95C:7617 (talk) 10:11, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

British Isles is a long standing geographical term it doesnt imply ownership any more than the Irish Sea does. MilborneOne (talk) 16:02, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

Though I did notice the Celtic Sea expanding a bit in British news when they thought there might be some oil beneath it. ;) Agre it is a reasonable and well used geographic term. Dmcq (talk) 16:38, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

I acknowledge that it's a controversial subject, and though I (Irish, for what it matters) personally prefer the term 'British Isles' over, say, the suggested 'North Atlantic Archipelago', it's a subject of much debate. However, my real issue here is your use of the term 'West British'. That is, for any uninformed editors, popular derogatory Irish slang for an Irish person considered to be 'too British', often used in a context analogous to 'Tan-bashing' (talking negatively about Brits themselves). To make such sweeping statements, that any Irish person who uses that term is actually more British is not only churlish and rude, but shockingly small-minded. You're gatekeeping Irishness, by saying only people who agree with me are actually Irish. The term British Isles is not recognized by the Irish government, and they make no alternatice suggestion, merely referring to 'these islands'. However, in everyday parlance in Ireland, British Isles is used commonly and generally without provoking argument. Check out the entry on 'British Isles' and you'll see that it's clear that not all Irish people reject the term. Xx78900 (talk) 08:21, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

While I understand the thought behind this suggestion, the term "British Isles" encompasses Isle of Man, Jersey, Guernsey, and the Scilly Isles, and is so common a term that I believe it should remain.NobelSavage (talk) 14:09, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

I disagree, the term is clearly marinated in political biases, The poster is correct that the term entered usage and the English language as a political propaganda tool, if you go back in the records before the 17th century there is no mention of the term anywhere, and Ireland was considered a alien none British land. The term is not accepted by the Irish and never has thus not legitimate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.242.31 (talk) 17:40, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

British Isles was a term for the islands originating over 2000 years ago in Ancient Greece when the inhabitants of both islands spoke mainly Celtic languages. This is long before the Romans, and later invaders from continental Europe conquered and colonised Great Britain. In contrast, the term "England" was not used until the 9th Century AD and is named after one of the conquering tribes. England is derived from "land of the Angles". The Angles came from the Anglia peninsula in the present-day German state of Schleswig–Holstein. The “United Kingdom” was only formed in 1801 when the kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland became one kingdom. DunmoreTom (talk) 19:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Addition of a map showing Ireland and Northern Ireland

It seems like a glaring omission to me to not show somewhere on the page (preferably close to the top) a map with the border on it? Any reason one hasn't been added? Xx78900 (talk) 08:28, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

The article is about the island and not about the political division of the island. Besides which it is quite clearly stated in prose, twice so I see no justifiable reason to include such a map. ww2censor (talk) 10:42, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree. The Politics section has a large image at the top showing the four provinces, giving the misleading impression that that is how Ireland is politically divided. The four provinces themselves aren't mentioned until the Divisions and settlements section, much further down. Not only is this image not used here, where it is clearly relevant, but it's not used on the Republic of Ireland or Northern Ireland article either. A reader that wants to see visually how the island is divided politically has to go to Partition of Ireland or United Ireland. That's just mad. Scolaire (talk) 13:20, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

In that case why not put a political map in the politics section and move the provinces map to the Divisions and settlements section, though there are currently two maps there that are bumping into that section: the 2002 population density and the religious distribution maps. Three maps in the same area of the article seems rather map heavy. Perhaps changing the map size down to "upright=1" could allow them all to fit close to their respective prose which is really where they belong and also copyedit the caption of the religions map to reduce the text. Then the provinces map might fit in. ww2censor (talk) 13:35, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

That sounds doable. Scolaire (talk) 15:26, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Scolaire, Xx78900: so I've done what I suggested above. I had to make a smaller version of the provinces map because it is actually a fixed size template and I think the smaller size I made fits the amount of prose in the section better than a bigger one. Even at that size it is quite readable. Made the other two maps a bit smaller and added the requested political divisions map where the provinces map was. Tweak or revert if you are not happy. ww2censor (talk) 17:58, 18 December 2019 (UTC)~

I think this is a fantastic addition to the article, thank you Ww2censor.Xx78900 (talk) 00:28, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I think we should have a map showing NI and RoI. Most geographical articles on areas that cover multiple polities have them, such as Europe, North America, Arabia, etc. Canterbury Tail talk 18:03, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Canterbury Tail: that is the map I added with this edit. ww2censor (talk) 22:46, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Yup. There was an edit conflict with our two edits above. All is good. Canterbury Tail talk 12:24, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

If we could give barnstars on talk pages, I would give one for this change. Not only because of the political map but also because the layout looks a lot nicer. --Red King (talk) 13:39, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment Red King, I'm not really so vain that I would refuse a personal barnstar for this work. What we really need now is to avoid demotion from "good article" in the reassessment. Who can help with that? ww2censor (talk) 15:19, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Update with Brexit

I feel as if it is important to note (either under geography or in the general section) that Ireland is now a border entry point into the EU from Northern Ireland. Thehumancoughingcatmeme (talk) 21:30, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Economy and GDP per capita

The GDP per capita of Ireland is extraordinarily high. In List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita it ranks at #4, #4 and #7, depending on which source is taken. But whichever, it is still extraordinarily high. Yet there is no indication at all of either what the Irish economy is all about or of what it is that is making the country so wealthy in the Economy section. Boscaswell talk 06:42, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

The inclusion of "British Isles" in this document is improper and should be removed.

The term British Isles is not recognised by the Irish Government and is a British ideology which is mostly considered offensive in Ireland. It does not belong in an article about Ireland. This point is already document on the British Isles page at

"The term "British Isles" is controversial in Ireland,[8][16] where there are nationalist objections to its usage.[17] The Government of Ireland does not officially recognise the term,[18] and its embassy in London discourages its use.[19] Britain and Ireland is used as an alternative description,[17][20][21] and Atlantic Archipelago has also seen limited use in academia.[22][23][24][25]"

If the current admin is not trying to be antagonistic, then it would be factually honest and respectful to remove it.

TenLeftFingers (talk) 15:04, 2 February 2020 (UTC)TenLeftFingers

1. This is an article about an island, not about a country
2. As a neutral article, you should bear in mind that the term is also used outside the United Kingdom as a geographical term.
3. This is not a political forum. We follow the sources.

The Banner talk 15:48, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

It should also be pointed out that the Irish government does in fact use the term. There are plenty of examples in the talk page archives. Canterbury Tail talk 17:15, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

The term is still controversial, disputed and well documented even on Wikipedia. Alternative, inclusive terminology is already provided by Wikipedia itself so if you wanted more references, here you go: TenLeftFingers (talk) 21:39, 2 February 2020 (UTC)TenLeftFingers

The term is disputed so it should be mentioned that's disputed or removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick Mcdermott25 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

"If the current admin is not trying to be antagonistic, then it would be factually honest and respectful to remove it.", says you, TenLeftFingers. I agree: the term stays. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 21:58, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

References

Try Republic of Ireland? Red King (talk) 08:07, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Wrong section, Red King? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:18, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Contributions of SoSaysPatrickMolloy

I have removed the Scots-Irish parts of the artcle, if anyone has a problem with that please reply to me before reverting back. Here is my justification for doing so.

There seems to be a odd revisionist propaganda idea spreading on Wikipedia mostly concocted by scots-Irish enthusiastics, based on the idea that Protestantism always equals scots-irish, the sources provided such as MP Carroll don't claim or even suggest that the majority of Irish-Americans are descended from the scots-Irish because they're protestant, this is silly based on surnames alone, that the notion all protestants equal scots-Irish like the section asserted. There are numerous explanations as to why the majority of Irish-Americans are protestant, they don't involve making baseless claims on flimsy evidence. The source provided Irish central is not a legitimate source and so was removed. Until a reasonable well thought out academic evaluation can be reach it's best to just leave it as is.

<expletive deleted> m.wikipedia version! Yes, it was a reply to the GDP question. --Red King (talk) 10:14, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

Removal of the Ulster-Scots as a language of Ireland

I don't want to ruffle some feathers here, but ulster-scots is not a language, it's a dialect of English nor is it recognized as a language officially. When I go to the Scotland or even England section I don't see cornish or scots listed as a language on those pages at the top, it's just English and Scots gahlig, even though the former Cornish absolutely should be. Also this page is missing large gaps in Irish history and key information on the political climate in Ireland currently.

Please sign you entry and if not registered then register. I have some sympathy with your reasoning about what is a language and what is a dialect, but I am not sure your have taken other factors into account that make the distinction less than obvious. Incidentally, why should Cornish absolutely be mentioned as a language? Roger 8 Roger (talk) 08:00, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Because Cornish is a language, Ulster-Scots is akin to a dialect of English like a accent as well you know, furthermore no government the uk or the republic of Ireland recognizes ulster scots as a official language like Irish is in the republic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.189.143 (talk) 21:14, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

WP:NOTFORUM. To the anon poster, you may be looking for Republic of Ireland, Northern Ireland and the History of Ireland series of articles. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:19, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

So by your logic Polish should be considered a language of Ireland. Give me one good reason why Ulster scots should be listed on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.5.64 (talk) 07:47, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

SosaysPatrickMolloy edits, December 2019

SosaysPatrickMolloy, can I ask what it is you're doing here and what your intentions are? The Ireland article is currently rated as a "good article" on WP's quality scale and is currently undergoing reassessment. "GA" status is not easy to achieve. Your recent numerous contributions over the last couple of days are... problematic. Few edit summaries, inclusion of random facts and opinions, with undue weight and usually unsourced, deletion of existing material, and frankly poor grammar... well, they're not helping. Can you please review Wikipedia's "5 Principles", especially WP:RS and WP:NPOV policies, and take some more care with your edits. Please also include edit summaries. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:24, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I was simply adding more information as I felt the article was a little bare, there was nothing random about my contributions they firmly fit into the categories. If you look at the talk section you will see I gave a heads up before I edited anything, I explained my reason for the removal of a certain section, or are you talking about something else? in that case what? Please cite a single none sourced statement? If you read my other posts you will see that I explicitly say the source given is not a legitimate source nor do the sources support the conclusion made in the article. Or are you referring to another source? Anyway, Why have you deleted so many of my sections.. particularly the music section. As for my grammar fair enough I was planning on going back and cleaning it up, my computer is acting up or something. Days? The original contributions I added read like this.

Extended content

Music Music has been in Ireland since prehistoric times. Although in the early Middle Ages the church was "quite unlike its counterpart in continental Europe", there was considerable interchange between monastic settlements in Ireland and the rest of Europe that contributed to what is known as Gregorian chant. Outside religious establishments, musical genres in early Gaelic Ireland are referred to as a triad of weeping music (goltraige), laughing music (geantraige) and sleeping music (suantraige). Vocal and instrumental music (e.g. for the harp, pipes, and various string instruments) was transmitted orally, but the Irish harp, in particular, was of such significance that it became Ireland's national symbol. Ireland has numerous Harper's, one such is Turlough O'Carolan is often considered Ireland's national composerIn his life time he created at least 214 pieces of music, Classical music following European models first developed in urban areas, in establishments of Anglo-Irish rule such as Dublin Castle, St Patrick's Cathedral and Christ Church as well as the country houses of the Anglo-Irish ascendancy, with the first performance of Handel's Messiah (1742) being among the highlights of the baroque era. In the 19th century, public concerts provided access to classical music to all classes of society. Yet, for political and financial reasons Ireland has been too small to provide a living to many musicians, so the names of the better-known Irish composers of this time belong to emigrants.For example Irish composer John Field invented the "Nocturne" which had a huge influence on Chopin The Irish fiddle is a important part of Irish music, it's played in widely different regional styles. The fiddle has old roots in Ireland being played as far back as the 8th century The fiddle is also mentioned in the book of leinster in (ca. 1160). The modern violin was ubiquitous in Ireland by the early 1700s. The first likely reference to Great Irish warpipes is from 1484 The first clear reference to the Irish bagpipes is during Henry VIII's siege of Boulogne. A muster roll of the "Kerne to be transported into Englaunde to serve the kinge" contains entries of various pipers attached to these forces, such as "The Baron of Delvene’s Kerne: Brene McGuntyre pyper sean nos dancing is a style of Irish step dance. It greatly influenced American dance style known as flat footing or buck dancing Irish Set dance includes,The Mullagh Half Set, Connemara Reel Set, the South Galway Reel Set and the Claddagh Set. Riverdance is by far the most world renowned form of Irish dance due to a surge in popularity in the 1990's. Irish traditional music and dance has seen a surge in popularity and global coverage since the 1960s. In the middle years of the 20th century, as Irish society was modernising, traditional music had fallen out of favour, especially in urban areas. However during the 1960s, there was a revival of interest in Irish traditional music led by groups such as The Dubliners, The Chieftains, The Wolfe Tones, the Clancy Brothers, Sweeney's Men and individuals like Paul Brady, Andy irvine Seán Ó Riada and Christy Moore. Groups and musicians including Horslips, Van Morrison and Thin Lizzy incorporated elements of Irish traditional music into contemporary rock music and, during the 1970s and 1980s, the distinction between traditional and rock musicians became blurred, with many individuals regularly crossing over between these styles of playing. This trend can be seen more recently in the work of artists like Enya, The Saw Doctors, The Corrs, Sinéad O'Connor, Clannad, The Cranberries and The Pogues among others. References

Again what is random about my contributions here? What I added fits more accurately the musical culture of Ireland, then what was previously there. I asked in the section if I could add Patrick Darcy and George barkley, I got no objections so I added it. I added little snippets here and there because I thought it helped the reader understand more about the country. What's wrong with that? Iv'e seen articles that go way off track on here, mine was far from that. I think you're more concerned about approval than accuracy or good well informed information.

Alot of what I added was perfectly in the realms of applicability, in fact I was going to add further sections as there are huge missing gaps on this page and barely any info on the current historical events, my biggest problem is the lack of pictures also, who is wolfetone? he doesn't even have a picture on this page, the founder of Irish republicanism, imagine that. James connolly? no picture either. Instead it's just a picture of a united Irishman getting hung, is that more appropriate? I've see pages with lengthy explanations and pictures. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SosaysPatrickMolloy (talk • contribs) 14:42, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Did you seriously just paste 5k of article text in here to prove a point?!

• You have removed sourced material.
• You have not "given a heads up" before editing anything, apart from the two talk-page sections above, on Ulster-Scots. Doing so would be good, and would likely generate feedback.
• See this edit for an example of unreferenced additions.
• Two other editors, Red King and Buidhe, also removed your edits. For reasons why, see edit summaries. (Please use edit summaries. For some reason, you don't).
• I deleted sections because your edits aren't improvements. Some of them are ungrammatical, unreferenced, make no sense, are undue, or are a combination of some of the above.
  • E.g., why single out the peregrine falcon as a possible national bird - number 2 in a list of 10?
  • E.g., the edit here where you tell us some Cromwellian-period authors wrote about re-introducing extinct birds around the year 2000.
• We all make typos, myself very much included, but you shouldn't expect to be able to leave them in place until we can come back later or someone else cleans them up for you. There is a 'Show preview' button.
• I do not know who George Barkley or James Colony are but apparently we don't have articles on them anyway.
• You do know, btw, that this is the article about the island, and we have separate articles about the state and Northern Ireland, and the History of Ireland?

You received a welcome message shortly after your first edit. Can I suggest reading through some of those linked articles. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 15:28, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

• You seem to be fairly confused and shouldn't be allowed to moderate this page as you know nothing about Ireland.
• What sourced material did I remove?
• I was just giving a example it would hardly be resemble to include all examples.
• You can't be serious they're referenced by the link on the other Wikipedia pages, which they're linked to.
• What do you mean by make no sense? define what you mean by improvements?
• What are you on about? You don't know who George Berkeley or James Connolly is despite them being referenced in this article? James Colony is the founder of the current Irish republic his death triggered the whole war of independence, this section is about history and culture of Ireland, Northern Ireland and the republic, that's what countries and lands are, a collection of historical events. My edits where not extensive and just briefly mentioned the cultural aspects of the island and a few historical reasons as to why Ireland is currently the way it is. This is perfectly inline with other articles on other countries and places. George Barkley was a Irish philosopher you included other Irish philosophers so why not Barkley, he's of considerable note worthiness.
• where you tell us some Cromwellian-period authors wrote about re-introducing extinct birds around the year 2000. What are you on about? good lord that's not what I said is English your second language or something?
• This is what I said which you linked me just now Due to British colonialism starting with John Perrot, the Lord Deputy of Ireland the wolf was on the verge of extinction, the last wolf is said to have been killed in County Carlow near Mount Leinster for killing a sheep in 1786 I have no idea where you just got that from...

Mentioning why a certain animal in Ireland is extinct is perfectly within line with other articles iv'e seen, how is that not a contribution. This page is poorly categorized for starters and would confuse most readers who are looking to understand what Ireland is. You have mushed centuries of history and culture into one long paragraph, and excluding large sections prevalent on this isle in regards to the cultural aspect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SosaysPatrickMolloy (talk • contribs) 08:08, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

• The sheer fact that you talk about Bastun moderating this page proves that you do not really understand that this is a community project. It is a collaborating between editors, with as a foundation the independent, reliable sources. And the addition must be relevant (not something like this or this). The Banner talk 10:46, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Can you please sign your posts, using frour tildes?

• "What sourced material did I remove?"

This edit removed several sources and sourced material, including academic and journal references, not just the Irish Central reference. (I am not aware that Irish Central has been declared to be an unreliable source, either).

• "I was just giving a example it would hardly be resemble to include all examples."

I think you're talking about the "national bird" insertion here? So you arbitrarily picked one bird, out of a list of 10, in a newspaper article about a national bird that Ireland (the island, not the state!) doesn't have? Have you read WP:UNDUE? (If Ireland (the state) does ever introduce a national bird, it should absolutely be referenced. In the article on the state. After the fact.

• "You can't be serious they're referenced by the link on the other Wikipedia pages, which they're linked to."

Are you saying that the references for your additions are other Wikipedia articles?! Please read WP:CIRCULAR.

• "What are you on about? You don't know who George Berkeley or James Connolly is despite them being referenced in this article?"

I know who very well who James Connolly is and am aware of George Berkeley. No idea who James Colony is. Or George Barkley. Again, everyone makes typos, but seriously, to this extent? Use the 'Show preview' button! Immediately after getting the names correct above, you again start talking about 'Colony' and 'Barkley'!

• "where you tell us some Cromwellian-period authors wrote about re-introducing extinct birds around the year 2000. What are you on about? good lord that's not what I said is English your second language or something?"

Dude. English is my first language, thanks for asking. I'm Irish, born and bred. I linked to your edit above. Click on this sentence, underlined in blue, to see it again. Read what you wrote. I'll even quote it for you: "The bulk of anti-wolf legislation occurred during the decade following the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland. A number of writers from this time period suggest that as a result of ongoing military campaigns in Ireland, particularly Some previously extinct birds, such as the golden eagle, been reintroduced in about the year 2000 after decades of extirpation."

The mangled sentences you introduced are in the paragraph after you mention Perrot, but it was your edit that introduced this. Mentioning the wolf going extinct, and when, and why, would certainly be a useful addition. But.

I don't expect an apology, but I do expect a certain level of competence. I've politely suggested you read the tutorials you were linked when you joined; maybe do that. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:59, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

If this is supposedly a collaboration between editors then why are you deleting my well sourced and pertinent edits? I didn't remove anything besides the propaganda of the migration page which I gave you advanced heads up on, I find it weird that it's even included on this page. The sources removed where not legitimate sources, Irish central is not a legitimate source it in fact is responsible for spreading the Irish slave myth. please re-read my other post. none of the sources elude or say what was said in the article, and thus there was no reason to keep them. Yes which are sourced, of course I can go back and ad the sources. That was a old edit I fixed the sentence to make it more clear what I said, and I didn't say what you said above that where you tell us some Cromwellian-period authors wrote about re-introducing extinct birds around the year 2000 no where did I say that and that literally makes no sense. Why was my additions to the music section removed? I will be re-adding them with any sources you feel were not adequate, good? okay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by SosaysPatrickMolloy (talk • contribs) 18:20, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

• The reasons for the deletions have been explained by me, above, and in the edit summaries of the other editors who reverted you.
• You don't arbitrarily get to decide what is and isn't a reliable source. If, however, you are claiming Irish Central has been deemed to not be one, you will be able to point to the community consensus listing it as an unreliable source. Please do so.
• I have linked twice already to the very edit you made that introduced the Cromwellian bird nonsense. I'll accept it might have been accidental and you might not have actually written the words that appeared, due to some copy/paste f-up or something, but the diff is clear - it was your edit that did it. The fact you're still denying this points to WP:COMPETENCE issues. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 13:27, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

• Although I don't agree with the rest of Molloy's edits, they are correct on one point—the WP:BURDEN for retaining or adding disputed material rests on those who favor said inclusion. In order to keep Irish Central as a source, we would need consensus that it's reliable. Said consensus doesn't really exist (it's barely been discussed on RSN). buidhe 20:24, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

WP:BURDEN states "The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution." (My emphasis added). The irishcentral.com reference supports the text that SosaysPatrickMolloy removed. The question, then, is only whether or not irishcentral.com is or is not a reliable source. It currently appears to be used as a reference over 33,000 times on WP. My understanding of the Reliable Sources Noticeboard is that for general news sites, not having user-generated content, there's a presumption of "innocent until proven guilty" until a RfC/discussion has taken place and consensus has been agreed. Note that although SosaysPatrick's edit summary did state in part "Irish central is not a legitimate source and so I removed it", that same edit also removed references from two books, Colonial America: A History, 1565–1776 and American Colonies. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:33, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

Unless a source is explicitly listed as unreliable (for example wp:Daily Mail), then it is acceptable unless contradicted by a number of high reliability sources. But this discussion is a red herring in any case, because the Irish Central citation was one of a number supporting a long diversion into the religious makeup of the Irish Diaspora in the US, all of which I deleted as wp:UNDUE and a threat to continued GA status. Of even more risk to that status are SSPM's incoherent, illiterate, uninformed and unsourced ramblings. --Red King (talk) 17:42, 27 December 2019 (UTC)

The reasons above are not adequate for the removal of several additions i made, and the sources I removed are not legitimate and even if they were they don't conclude on a collective biases the conclusion on this page, they are not supporting work, no where does Carroll's work state A premise that was added to this page. Put plainly so you can understand, the conclusion made on this page isn't supported by the sources, why do you have such a hard time grasping this? If I'm wrong please point me to where it says in the sources added that the majority of protestant Irish American's are of scots Irish ancestry, it's a form of theory creating, which is not what wikipedia is about, it's not about users creating theories on pages and spreading them to other pages. So again what was your reasoning for removing my well sourced edits? I didn't introduce any Cromwellian bird nonsense, my original edit https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Ireland&type=revision&diff=932078312&oldid=932059910 if you click it you will see what I wrote, which reads Due to British colonialism starting with John Perrot, the Lord Deputy of Ireland the wolf was on the verge of extinction, the last wolf is said to have been killed in County Carlow near Mount Leinster for killing a sheep in 1786 That was not even my final edit as he tried to pass it off as; your buddy got confused and thought I was talking about Cromwellian birds? which is very odd, you're now trying to back him up. Continue on with your derogatory snobbish ramblings at me; disguised as superficial professionalism. I want adequate reason for the removal of my edits, particularity the music edits, which I have yet to get. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.189.143 (talk) 20:52, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

References

Ireland is an Irish Isle: continued discussion.

British Isles was a term for the islands originating over 2000 years ago in Ancient Greece when the inhabitants of both islands spoke mainly Celtic languages. This is long before the Romans, and later invaders from continental Europe conquered and colonised Great Britain. In contrast, the term "England" was not used until the 9th Century AD and is named after one of the conquering tribes. England is derived from "land of the Angles". The Angles came from the Anglia peninsula in the present-day German state of Schleswig–Holstein. The “United Kingdom” was only formed in 1801 when the kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland became one kingdom. DunmoreTom (talk) 19:56, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

No, It should be noted that the term British isles is to be considered a form of Irredentism, a way of saying Greater political Britannia, while the term was used in classical times, several Greco-Roman documents, it was never used by everyday people and was out of use for several centuries. From the 5th to 11th centuries, no collective terminology existed for the Island of Ireland and Britain and its surrounding isles, the term "Scotia" was used for Ireland. The Orkney Islands ("Orcades") and the Isle of Man were typically also included in descriptions of the islands. Ireland was conquered and colonized by Britain in the Tudor period, Tudor conquest of Ireland, and the term "British Isles" came to be used in Europe with the rediscovery of Ptolemy's Geographica in the 14th Century. By the middle of the 16th Century the term appears on maps made by British geographers including George Lily also Sebastien Munster The term British isles entered the English language in the 16th century a way to lay claim to perceived lost former territory in the midst of time or that should belong to Great Britain by god giving right, common themes in British writing at the time Because of these questionable documents enforced by British geographer's and writers propaganda, the term became increasingly more popular when the idea of Britishness was created in 1707 with the act of union The term British isles is mainly enforced and used by certain people especially (Ulster unionists and British nationalists) within the UK as a way to retain some political or cultural claim over Ireland. It should therefore be noted the term is disputed, it's not purely a geographical term, regardless of its questionable origins or what something did or didn't mean thousands of years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick Mcdermott25 (talk • contribs) 19:28, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

It is unclear what changes you want made to the article. I don't understand what point you're trying to say above and Wikipedia is Not a Forum. We don't get to decide this, reliable sources and what is in use gets to decide this. Anyway it sounds like this is something for the British Isles article which covers all of this. Canterbury Tail talk 19:34, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

This is merely a continued discussion for now on the debate on whether Ireland should be classified under the term British isles or at least it should be noted the term is disputed, the other posts on here are advocating for the removal of the term British isles or mentioned that's disputed. If you scroll up. The discussion was locked and so I was replying to the last user with my rebuttal. Who are you to decide what sources are legitimate? why are the sources I used not legitimate? The term is disputed I think it should be mentioned in the Ireland article that it's disputed and then link it to the naming dispute article. Do you have any objections to this and if so why?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick Mcdermott25 (talk • contribs) 21:05, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

There is no need to start POV-pushing. And please read WP:RS. The Banner talk 22:05, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

It seems here that it's not so much the reliability of the sources that you cite but your misuse of them. See WP:SYNTH. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:25, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

And I don't believe the article on Ireland is the place to discuss whether the term British Isles is accurate or not, we have the British Isles and British Isles naming dispute articles for that. Discussions on controversy of terms etc should take place on the articles about that term, not an article that merely mentions it. Otherwise every single article that mentions a disputed or controversial term would find themselves discussing it instead of just in a single central place. Canterbury Tail talk 01:20, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

References

How can I misuse sources? that seems like a attempt to me at speech suppression and waving away sources or trying to delegitimize the editor, it's basically hand waving. The problem here is that the British isles naming dispute is not on this page, it's accessibility is not front and center here. It should be added to the page in Ireland its self as the term is mentioned. It's otherwise totally dishonest to not do that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.135.73 (talk) 00:36, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Mutt Lunker (talk) 00:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

On a Wikipedia article yes I agree, but this is the talk page I was simply rebutting the claim made by another user, I'm asking you why on this page it's not mentioned that the term is disputed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.5.64 (talk) 07:49, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

Bid to add clarification to the etymology section

This is merely a minor edit in my opinion, but I consider it important for clarification. The current section reads like this The names Ireland and Éire derive from Old Irish Ériu, a goddess in Irish mythology first recorded in the ninth century. The etymology of Ériu is disputed but may derive from the Proto-Indo-European root *h2uer, referring to flowing water

I have a number of problems with this on a few grounds, first it doesn't explain or clarify what the other etymology is suppose to be, what is the other etymology that's disputed? 2. The actual source states Various etymologies have been offered, the most recent one purposes the meaning as place on, at, by, near the water, stream, based on the proto-indo-European h2uer (flowing water) If this is true which I doubt, the actual meaning of Eire may mean something like edge-water-ocean or by the stream, possibly relating to Ireland at the edge of the known world. Some editor on here didn't like me adding that for whatever reason, which he didn't give any explanation why and started a editing war with me even after I fixed grammatical errors. I also added why the grey wolf in Ireland went extinct which is due to British colonialism and I gave the date as to when this happened fully sourced. These are all legitimate contributions to this article and kept being reverted. There's such a thing as to little information.

This is what I will be adding to the etymology section and the fauna section.

The names Ireland and Éire derive from Old Irish Ériu, a goddess in Irish mythology first recorded in the ninth century. The etymology of Ériu is thought to mean Abundant land or prosperous land derived from a Proto-Indo-European word meaning fat, this etymology is disputed. Various etymologies have been offered, the most recent one purposes the meaning as *by the stream, or edgewater based on the proto-indo-European h2uer(flowing water)

If you can come up with a better interpretation as to what it means I would like to hear it.

The grey wolf went extinct in Ireland as recently as 1786 primarily due to British colonialism

If there's no objection to this I will be adding it in a few days. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patrick Mcdermott25 (talk • contribs) 20:58, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Nope. No need to start POV-pushing without proper sources. The Banner talk 22:03, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh, hello, SosaysPatrickMolloy! New surname/account? You're welcome to contribute, once your additions follow our policies, including WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV, wP:N, WP:NOR, etc. Have a read of the new user guides. Use edit summaries, don't take a reversion as a personal attack, and if something appears contentious, consider getting consensus prior to making the edit. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:27, 31 March 2020 (UTC) (Also, please don't put references on the talk page - it's unnecessary and annoying! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:29, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Good advice, please heed it, though it is fine to cite references on talk pages. And add WP:SOCK to the list of your required reading. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:47, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Do I need permission from the elitism club to add legitimate sources now? that would make this a popularity contest rather than a article about facts about Ireland. What do you consider proper sources? who are you to decide? I don't know who SosaysPatrickMolloy is all I did was see his comments. The sources I added are legitimate. Saying I am POV pushing when the sources legitimately say what I said is not POV pushing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 51.37.135.73 (talk) 00:40, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Familiarise yourself with Wikipedia:Identifying and using independent sources and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. ww2censor (talk) 09:49, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

It literally says in the sources used what I want to add, one of which is already in use. POV pushing is happening but not by me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.76.5.64 (talk) 07:51, 6 April 2020 (UTC)

References

Ireland separated from Great Britain?

The current version contains what seems to be a non-sequiteur: "By 16,000 BC, rising sea levels caused by ice melting caused Ireland to become separated from Great Britain[14]. Later, around 6000 BC, Great Britain became separated from continental Europe."

If Great Britain had yet not separated from continental Europe, then surely Ireland separated from continental Europe and not Great Britain, which would not exist as an island for another 10,000 years. The cited source shows land bridges between Ireland and what is now Scotland disappearing as sea levels rose. It seems like a clearer way to put it would be: "By 16,000 BC, rising sea levels caused by ice melting caused Ireland to become separated from the European mainland, at what is now Scotland." However, my edit to that effect was reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lfp (talk • contribs) 14:38, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Your edit to that effect was removed because the source contradicts your claim. The source clearly states it separated from Britain. If you can find a better reliable source to support the new wording then that's fine, but your edits are not supported by the source currently supporting that section. Canterbury Tail talk 14:45, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Your edit would assume that readers understood that Great Britain was still attached to the European mainland at that time. Many would not know that. So, it's clearer to readers to say that Ireland separated from GB, and then - later - Britain separated from Europe. To put it another way, the land that is now known as GB was the area from which Ireland separated, and the fact that GB was not itself an island at that point is not really relevant. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:23, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2020

Ireland is not one of the British Isles. 78.17.152.18 (talk) 00:17, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: No request. See British Isles naming dispute; and surely some consensus decision somewhere earlier on this talk page or it's archives. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:29, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Languages

The actual name of the English dialect spoken in Ireland is, Hiberno-English, not simply English. Shelta should be added as it is an official language according to the government. It has the same status as Hiberno-English, Irish, and Ulster Scots. Also Shelta is considered a secret language by its speakers, so I wasn't able to find a name translation for the island of Ireland, but if someone is able to find it, I recommend adding it. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 19:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

References please and also sign your comments -----Snowded ^TALK 04:21, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

The Constitution:

ARTICLE 8

1 The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2 The English language is recognised as a second official language. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 05:53, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

That's for one government. Remember this article is about a landmass, not a state. There are two governments on the island. So talk about languages being government protected must be handled with transparency here as it is currently worded as if the government of the RoI is the government of the landmass, which it obviously isn't. I'd worry about using terms such as according to the government etc, and actually stay away from government declarations. Fine to use things like census figures from both and tally them I'd guess to get the top languages, but we can't put a language on the landmass and say it's because a government says so. Canterbury Tail talk 12:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

"The actual name of the English dialect spoken in Ireland" is not what the infobox is meant to display. English is the language spoken in Ireland, just as English (not American English) is the language spoken in the United States. I'm reverting that addition. Scolaire (talk) 12:00, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

That is a good point, I support leaving it, however when hovering over it, or clicking on it, it should be directed to Hiberno-English possibly? Hiberno-English is the dialect spoken in Northern Ireland as well I am almost positive, it is more than English with an Irish accent, the difference is in pronunciation of words, and differing vocabulary. Thanks for leaving Shelta however as it is a constitutionally protected language on the island, one of four. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 19:18, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

If you read the Hiberno-English article, it describes Hiberno-English as "the set of English dialects natively written and spoken within the island of Ireland". So should the field be expanded to Ulster English, South-West Irish English, Dublin English, New Dublin English, Ulster Irish, Connacht Irish, Munster Irish, Ulster Scots and Shelta? How would hovering work there? Scolaire (talk) 19:49, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Hiberno-English (or as some still call it, "Irish English") is not a dialect, it is "the ways English is spoken in Ireland" - and that "ways" is deliberate, as there is not some homogenous form. Except that many, notably in Northern Ireland, but some elsewhere too, might see themselves as speaking some "more standard" English. And that is exactly the problem - this is a slightly vague concept, with added words and minor grammar tweaks in different parts of the island of Ireland - see the list of varietals given by Scolaire above. And then some of this is not academically solid either - I think you'd have quite an argument as to whether "New Dublin English" exists at all). For the purposes of the infobox, neither direct linking, nor a hover, to Hiberno-English seems appropriate, no more than this is done for other polities (we don't talk at the article headline level of Canadian English, Singlish, Indian English, SA English, Barbadian English, etc., though each has distinct characteristics and dozens to thousands of specific words.)

Shelta, or cant as some used to call it, as spoken by 6,000-8,000 as far as I recall (under 2% of the population), is *not* constitutionally protected - the languages with constitutional status exist only in one jurisdiction, and are two (see quote above). However, it does have a distinct identity, history and speaking population, and as a native language, should be recorded, yes. Note that there are probably more speakers of some "guest" languages, but infoboxes are not meant to list every language with a moderate percentage of speakers. SeoR (talk) 21:42, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Re. Shelta, I've double-checked, including under the multiple other names (Gammon, Pavee, etc.), and the statement "has the same status as Hiberno-English, Irish, and Ulster Scots" is simply not supported. The UK has no official language, but English is often required for certain purposes, and for Northern Ireland, some specific provisions apply to Irish, and to Ulster Scots (but even then, authorities disagree on whether to classify it as a language or a dialect), and the Republic of Ireland has very clear first status for Irish, second for English, and limited provisions for Ulster Scots - and very little provision indeed about Shelta, not least because it is a secret language (and so, to answer a question above, there is no common awareness of a word for "Ireland" as the publicly-shared vocabulary is tiny). With increased recognition for the status of Irish Travellers, things may change, but this would also be a matter for the UK, including especially Northern Ireland and Wales - it is worth remembering that UK speakers of Shelta vastly outnumber those from the Republic of Ireland (by a factor of 10+). SeoR (talk) 21:59, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

You've left out Irish Sign Language (50,000 speakers, including 5,000 Deaf, in RoI, where it has some legal status, and 1,500+ in NI), more than Ulster Scots (16,000 fluent, 30-35,000 able and maybe 90-100,000 with some ability) or Shelta, British Sign Language (3,500 speakers in NI, and a further number with the hybrid NI Sign Language, neither of which has much formal recognition). Not to mention the hundreds of thousands whose home language, or joint home language is not English (or for small numbers outside the Gaeltacht) Irish, with over 130,000 Polish speakers, 50,000 French, 30-35,000 each for Romanian, Lithuanian and Spanish, 28,000 German speakers, 21,000 each of Russian and Portuguese (split between Lusitanian and Brazilian), and 15-20,000 each with Chinese, Arabic or Italian.83.220.236.109 (talk) 23:46, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

In Shelta, Ireland is Rilantus, England Palantus, Wales Mukya, while in Cant (not, please note folks, exactly the same language) America is Grut Munkree. Connaught is Mwikamo, Ulster Lutra Munkree, Munster Swurta Munkree and Dublin Avari Tom. I hope that helps.83.220.236.109 (talk) 23:51, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for allowing Shelta to remain, as there are four protected languages on the island as a whole. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 20:24, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Any evidence they're protected in Northern Ireland as well as RoI? You keep talking as if Ireland (island) is a single whole, not 100% sure you're aware of this. Canterbury Tail talk 20:30, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Shelta has very limited status in the Republic of Ireland, and as far as I could discover the other day, no protection or status at all in Northern Ireland (it has maybe 6-8k speakers in RoI, reputedly just a few hundred in NI). And the positions of English and Irish are very different, and in turn those of Irish and Ulster Scots are not identical either. For the purposes of the infobox, the correct order would be based on usage, and English is overwhelmingly the main language of the island, the Gaeltachts sadly having shrunk to small areas, and even then lost some continuity of usage. But an editor above has raised a good point about sign languages, and I must look at some other infoboxes to understand if they are typically shown there. On the numbers it seems that ISL, at least, has material usage. SeoR (talk) 08:52, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Hiberno-English, by the way, is not the "official name of Irish English" or any such thing. There is no such official concept in either jurisdiction. It is an umbrella linguistic term for some ways of speaking, and additional vocabulary in different areas. I suspect that practically no one anywhere on the island would spontaneously describe themselves as speaking it, though many would have heard the term, and would appreciate the idea. SeoR (talk) 08:52, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

On a specific proposal above, to include the Shelta name for Ireland (and as an aside, are there names for RoI and NI?), first, is Rilantus verifiable and current (as many of the limited Shelta word collections are from 80-140 years ago), and second, is it appropriate, based on numbers, status, Shelta / Gammon / Cant cryptolect situation (they are meant as community secret tools), etc.? SeoR (talk) 09:02, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia but here you're missing a basic point. Is Shelta actually a full language, through which life can be fully lived? Because accounts I've read suggest that it is a limited set of words used in conversation meant to be secret. A sub-set of a language. Because it is alien to both English and Irish, while taking from both, it is not comparable to Ulster Scots, which segues into Scots and even English. Neother Traveller ethnicity nor Shelta have much protection even in Ireland. There was a big fuss about a statement by Enda Kenny in the Dail but it was not followed up with much enforceable. 37.190.57.239 (talk) 13:24, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

On the question about "language completeness," I don't know. What I have done is to dig around, but there really are few sources, the most comprehensive being something from 1937. I see Rilantus / Relantus for Ireland there, and aside from things mentioned above, Grasano for Scotland and/or England, but after >80 years, cannot assess their validity. I found mention of a modern dictionary, with words split by current-usage, usage about 50 years ago, and usage before that, but it does not seem to have an e-book form. I looked at the Languages of Ireland article too, and the sign languages are there. SeoR (talk) 13:39, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Looking at Languages of Ireland is not comparing like with like. I checked France, Germany, Italy, Iran, Japan and Nigeria (chosen randomly), and none of those had sign language in the infobox, in the Language section or anywhere else in the article. Each of those countries does have one or more sign languages. It is obviously the convention on Wikipedia that "languages" refers to spoken languages. Scolaire (talk) 12:17, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

And to forestall the argument that Ireland isn't a single state, European Union doesn't have sign languages either. Scolaire (talk) 12:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

That sounds sufficient to rest the ISL / BSL point for now - I see the same across multiple articles, and I think that the point made by [83.220.236.109] would need to be explored in an RFC if it is to be considered further. There is probably a valid underlying issue. As for Shelta, I conclude after further digging that it has only vague recognition, not a true legal standing, and a small speaking population, but as this is a distinct native group, its presence remains valid. The last IP-raised point re its completeness as a language would require expert input. And then scanning multiple countries makes clear that foreign languages, even with significant populations using them as primary "at home" tongues, generally do not appear. No absolutes, especially on numbers - it's all relative (look at the modest populations of a few countries with multiple official languages) - but for the sake of simplicity, four in the Ireland (and RoI, at least) infoboxes more than suffices. SeoR (talk) 14:56, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I think the "valid underlying issue" may well merely be that so few of us are conversant in sign language. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:49, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Okay so it seems there's some edit warring starting on which language to put first. Since we're talking a landmass here, which has no government to make any kind of landmass wide dictates etc, I think we should just list the languages in order of number of speakers Why would you list a language that is spoken a lot less for a landmass over another which is spoken by the majority of the landmass's population. Remember we're not talking about a country here with legal languages. So that would be English first, Irish second etc. This is how the article has been ever since languages were added to the infobox. Per WP:BRD, it was boldly changed, it was reverted, now it should be discussed. Canterbury Tail talk 01:31, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Agreed. For the island, by usage: English, Irish, Ulster Scots, Shelta. Sign language to be debated further if people express interest. SeoR (talk) 10:43, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Also agreed. Really, could we stop the "officially", and "constitutionally" arguments, please, B. M. L. Peters? As pointed out on multiple occasions, we're talking about an island, a geographical landmass, not one or both of the two jurisdictions on the island. I really thought we'd left this sort of argument behind about ten years ago. Would also support including Irish Sign Language, btw. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 19:46, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Sure, I apologize, yes when talking about the island collectively, English is spoken most, so therefore it should go first. ISL is a language spoken on the island, whether it be sign or spoken, however I don't believe it is constitutionally protected, or spoken often at all, I support the general consensus related to that. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 19:55, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 January 2021

Please remove the term "British Isles" from this article. It is a highly disputed term, and very offensive to Irish people as Ireland is not British 2A01:B340:80:2835:C094:BF63:9F46:2779 (talk) 16:47, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

 Not done. To quote user RandomCanadian above, "See British Isles naming dispute; and surely some consensus decision somewhere earlier on this talk page or it's archives." Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:30, 23 January 2021 (UTC)

Irish homeland (Semi-protected edit request on 24 January 2021)

(Idk how to request an edit sorry)

It should be clear in the beginning that the whole island is the homeland of the Irish people, regardless of politics. Just like "Basque Country" or "Kurdistan" clearly shows that it's that nation homeland. Can someone edit it for me? 93.15.241.95 (talk) 10:22, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2021

Hi! Im a person from the harvard institution. I study the poeople in Ireland, could you please give me permission to edit this page??? BTW, do you sell brownies? Asking for a friend. 178.22.207.149 (talk) 10:34, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EN-Jungwon 11:53, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Removal of the British Isles tag

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Per longstanding convention, and as explained in the header of Talk:British Isles, "The term British Isles is a contentious issue. In order to better facilitate discussion of this issue, without swamping other matters, there is a specific talk page for matters relating to the name of this article. Your cooperation with keeping name-related matters on that page would be appreciated by other editors. Also, please remember that article talk pages are provided only to facilitate improvements to the article. Editors uncertain about the use of talk pages should read WP:TALK and WP:NOT#FORUM. Inflammatory messages, personal attacks, and debate and discussion not specifically targetted to specific ways of improving the article may be removed and, in extreme cases, warnings issued to the editor who inserted them." Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:12, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

---

I, with all due respect, ask that the tag British Isles be taken down. This may have been factually accurate many years ago, but we have moved a long way since then. Northern Ireland can be recognized as a member of the British Isles but not the republic. Our predeccesors not fight so hard for so many years to still be thrown in with the British. Please remove it as it is offensive. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.126.149.174 (talk • contribs) 11:09, 17 April 2020

Unfortunately the term British Isles is a geographical term, not a political one, and you can't just remove countries from geographical terms that are in us. Even in use by the Ireland government (plenty of examples available in British Isles talk pages.) Additionally your request doesn't make sense to say that Northern Ireland can appear as a member of the British Isles (you are not a member of the British Isles, it's not an organization) but the rest of the land it's geologically attached to cannot. Anyway this is an article about the entire island of Ireland, which is indeed part of the descriptive term British Isles, and this has nothing to do with governments. Canterbury Tail talk 11:52, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

It is very easy to hide behind geography but the fact is, it could be removed and renamed with one of its many alternatives, but it isn't and as such the refusal to omit it from my perspective isn't being done because of any neutral geographical point of view but rather a political one. The fact is you don't want to remove it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.126.149.174 (talk • contribs) 12:08, 17 April 2020 (UTC (UTC)

We don't remove it because it's commonly used in many reliable references, both political and non-political, and no alternative has ever been proposed that anyone consistently and reliably uses. The name does not imply any ownership or control, see also Sea of Japan, South China Sea, Irish Sea, English Channel and many other similar cases. Canterbury Tail talk 12:32, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Request denied, as this article is supposed to be neutral and not politically biased. Come back when an alternative name is mainstream in reliable sources. The Banner talk 12:22, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ireland is a geographic article about the island not a political one about the state. British Isles is the commonly used term for the geographic group of islands of which Ireland is one. There is no political context to this inclusion. ww2censor (talk) 13:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

I understand your thought's I really do, I am Irish diaspora so I have empathy for your argument, but like it was stated, it is a geographical term, not a political one, same way the sea between Britain and Ireland is called the Irish sea, to the discontent of some people from the Island of Great Britain. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 21:38, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid you are incorrect that the geographic term is somehow neutral, devoid of a political dimension and not subject to active dispute, ww2censor. Because of British Isles naming dispute, the term is not used in any official capacity in the republic including on maps, in schoolbooks or on any material produced by Ordnance Survey Ireland. While User:Canterbury Tail is correct that there is no commonly agreed alternative term, it's certainly not accurate to describe it as politically neutral. While I sympathise with the lack of a generally accepted neutral alternative, I struggle to see how starting an article, about my island, by describing it using a term that a majority of people on this island find offensive is NPOV. Cros13 (talk) 01:18, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

When will British people get that the term 'British Isles' is DEEPLY offensive to Irish people and is a term rooted in British colonialism and attempts to project and impose their nationality on Irish people. Any time an Irish person points this out on Wikipedia they are hounded by British editors. 'British Isles' is neither geographically or politically appropriate. Ireland is an island, Britain is an Island, Ireland is a state, the UK is a state. If one thing should be 'cancelled' this year it is this phrase. Also, given the history between the two countries, you would imagine that British people would be aware of this, but no, they just 'explain to us' on here why they can name our island British. — Preceding unsigned comment added by A PhD in History (talk • contribs) 20:11, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Do you have written sources for that claim? The Banner talk 20:23, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Your claim is a load of rubbish. The term is not “DEEPLY” offensive to Irish people. I lived in Ireland for 30 years, and only recall one person who didn’t like it. Do you want to rename the Irish Sea as some stray British person may not like that. British Isles is the commonly used term and has been for a long time.--Dmol (talk) 20:42, 8 October 2020 (UTC)

Clear editor bias, it is not an internationally accepted term in any legal or inter-governmental sense. Clearly stated by the minister of foreign affairs in 2005 in Ireland. Respect other countries identity and stop trying to force your own narrow view. Stop the bias. Áos si na Éirenn (talk) 14:39, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for admitting your own bias. That makes the discussion a lot easier. The Banner talk 15:46, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Additionally for a term the Irish government apparently doesn’t like, they sure do use it an awful lot. Plenty of reports, releases and other Irish government documentation that uses it. One statement by one official in just one branch of a many branched government, does not an overall government policy make. Canterbury Tail talk 16:10, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

The use of British Isles to refer to countries and states that are not British is offensive to those countries and states. Can we please move to the more appropriate Atlantic Archipelago if a geographic name is required. Alternatively there is no need to have or use a name for both Islands. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Reillyse (talk • contribs) 10:32, 25 April 2021

Do you have evidence that the term is taken as offensive by Irish people? Preferably with reliable, independent sources? And do you have evidence that "Atlantic Archipelago" is a widely used name? Preferably with reliable, independent sources? The Banner talk 09:11, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Sure, here is a link the controversy on a site called wikipedia https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/British_Isles_naming_dispute, plenty of references there.Reillyse (talk) 20:54, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Nope, that is not an acceptable source for your claims. The Banner talk 22:38, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Ow, and in the 15 years that I live in the West of Ireland, I have never met someone who was offended by the term. Nor cared about it. The Banner talk 22:43, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

Ok. A couple of things. One, if you think Wikipedia is not a good source for this conversation, and the sources on that page about this topic are not acceptable, I don't know what sources are. They are totally acceptable. Secondly perhaps you have not met anyone in the West of Ireland in 15 years. Do you have any sources to back up your claims? It's totally laughable that you would go to a pub in Clare (The Banner I get it) and nobody would object to you referring to Ireland as part of the "British Isles". Lastly in the 40 years I've lived on the Island of Ireland, note thats 25 years longer than you :) I haven't met anybody who would refer to the Island of Ireland as part of the "British Isles" it's just not a term people use in this part of the world. It's a relic of a colonial mindset that we rejected over a 100 years ago, and to see it still used on this website is ridiculous. Nobody in Ireland uses that term. Show me that that term is in use by a person from Eire to refer to Ireland. Reillyse (talk) 06:57, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

There's a massive difference between people not using a term in day to day conversation and people objecting to it and finding it offensive. Do not conflate the two things, there is not a causal connection to each other. Canterbury Tail talk 11:26, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

There's also the fact that this is a global encyclopedia, and the evidence is that the term BI is used globally, irrespective of how it is used or not used in Ireland. Ghmyrtle (talk) 11:47, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Yup. However the fact it is used in Ireland, and used officially by the government, is just icing really. However at the end of the day it's all about reliable sources not person experiences or a quick survey down the pub (remember those?) Canterbury Tail talk 11:59, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm from Ireland and always use the term British Isles. And I don't think I've ever used the term Eire because no-one else does. But this is degenerating in to a pissing contest to see who's live there the longest. That's not how this works. You have not shown how the majority, (or even a significant number) of people in Ireland find it offensive as you claim.--Dmol (talk) 07:37, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

As an Irish person, I've no objection to the term "British Isles", "Irish Sea", or, for that matter, "Iberian peninsula" or "Indian sub-continent". They're geographical terms, not political. Thousands of other Irish people, including the state, and the Dáil and Seanad also use the term. So you don't appear to have an argument. Do note, however, that "Eire" is an Irish-language word that means "burden". I find it offensive when people use it in English to refer to the name of my country. Could you stop using that term, please, Reillyse? Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 11:03, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure where to start here. All of the references you are quoting actually prove my point, which is strange. E.g. in one of the articles you linked, it mentions the controversy and includes a quote “Whenever someone refers to all those islands off the coast of Europe as the British Isles,” he told TheJournal.ie, “they are engaged in some unconscious anglo-centrism.” The quote from the Seanad is from 1928! And actually is a verbatim quote of a British Admiralty's report on sailing directions, they are quoting it. So I don't want to get stuck responding to nonsense. We are talking about removing the reference to the British Isles from the Ireland page because it is offensive to a large amount of Irish people. What evidence would convince y'all ? Every time we bring up anything to prove the point it is rejected. How many people need to be offended by the name for it to be not used any more? Just because it was used in the past does not make it appropriate now. Do you still call Zimbabwe Rhodesia ? What labels do you use to refer to African Americans? Sometimes names are used and people realize that those names are inappropriate.Reillyse (talk) 00:59, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Right, so, we're clearly into WP:IDONTHEARTHAT territory at this stage. Yes, some people are offended by the term "British Isles". Nobody disputes that. They, and you, have the right to be offended. "All of the references you are quoting actually prove my point..." Actually, no, they don't, they prove the opposite! Assuming you're referring to the search results I posted immediately above (they're not references), you have selectively picked out a few instances of objections, while ignoring the vast majority of results, that just use the term, because it is a commonly used term. In Ireland. You're bringing no new arguments or facts to the table, just opinion or downright fallacious points we've all heard time and again. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:03, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Actually lots of people are disputing whether or not "British Isles" is offensive. I'm glad you have conceded it is, we are making progress on agreeing a resolution here. Reillyse (talk) 22:26, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

This dispute is hashing over the same arguments that have been repeated before. It comes down to this - reliable sources. Reillyse and others with similar opinions are simply not acknowledging Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia that is based on what a (preponderance) of reliable sources state (no matter the offence caused. Wikipedia is not censored WP:CENSORED). They have failed to provide those sources and instead rely on the personal opinion 'I'm offended by this' but stated as 'everyone is offended by this' without providing evidence of widespread offence. The 'offence' opinion is spurious anyway because it relies on personal or popular opinion rather than reasoned argument (although I realise feelings run high on this subject and should be acknowledged). I don't mind what the British Isles islands are called but at the moment the preponderance of reliable sources (including sources from Irish publications and organisations as Bastun has linked to) states that the archipelago is called the 'British Isles'. So I oppose removing or changing this in the lede. The only additional information in the lede might be a footnote next to the term which states the controversy and links to the controversay article. Robynthehode (talk) 09:32, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

You ask for "reliable sources" but then you say they don't matter anyway. What actually matters? The "sources" that Bastun has linked to are not sources. They are just references to the "British Isles" from websites that are hosted on the Irish Government domain. Most of them are referencing British sources, there is nothing definitive about it. E.g. here is a link [4] to similar "sources" that show that the N word is appropriate for British people, Bastun's argument could be used to say the N word is appropriate for Wikipedia, when it clearly is not, it's just a word that has been used in the past and is no longer appropriate similarly to "British Isles". So, to my point. What evidence is required ? References from the Irish Government saying the name is not appropriate for the collection of Islands? Evidence its use has been avoided by organizations in the state? Again I have no problem recognizing that in the past it was a historical term, but it's not appropriate for current usage, and it hasn't been for the better part of a century.Reillyse (talk) 22:27, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

@Reillyse: If your 'you' applies to my comments then I don't know how you have interpreted my comments that I think reliable sources don't matter as I specifically state that they do. As the dispute is about using the term 'British Isles' the use of that term by official government sites (and elsewhere) does count as a evidence that there isn't a consistent non-use of the term by Irish people and organisations and the sites are sources for this use. The controversy article has lots of other sources stating that 'British Isles' is the predominant term and I'm sure there's other links to sources in discussions on talk pages. There is no denial that there is a controversy and that has been agreed by other editors and the fact that Wikipedia has a specific article about the controversy. Acknowledging there is a controversy is, however, very different from agreeing (or not) with a specific consensus that has been reached after lots of debate among editors. Thanks for the link re the N-word but Wikipedia is not censored (did you read the link I posted?) and there is a specific Wikipedia article Nigger which details the controversy and current use of that term. Your comparison between the use of the N-word and 'British Isles' is fallacious however because 'British Isles' is not seen by both the vast majority of people and by reliable sources that critique the use of the term to be comparable. Provide sources which see the term 'British Isles' in the same light as the N-word is seen as a racial slur and your argument might have more traction. If you want to see what reliable sources are check WP:RS. Certainly 'I and everyone I know (and the rest of the island's population) is offended by this term' is not evidence suitable for Wikipedia (because it is not verifiable - one of the criteria for a source being reliable). I understand you don't like the term but unless you build a consensus to change its use in Wikipedia following Wikipedia protocols you won't get far. I have suggested a semi compromise of a footnote but you have ignored that (other editors may, of course, disagree with me on this). You might also like to read WP:RGW. Robynthehode (talk) 23:08, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

Again, misstating and/or deliberately misinterpreting what others have said, and making up your own facts (e.g., "Most of them are referencing British sources") will not persuade anyone, and you're still very much in a WP:IDONTHEARTHAT mindset. Go to the British Isles article talk page. Read the archives. Do the same on the terminology dispute article. Then, if you must, and if you can, make a new argument. But continually saying "Get rid of this term that I find offensive and that I'm asserting a majority of Irish people find offensive, despite no proof whatsoever" is pointless and a waste of everyone's time. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:01, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

can people ban the discussion about "british isles"?

I've looked at the discussion and there's so much of this stupid discussion that already has a clear consensus 93.15.241.95 (talk) 10:29, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't think we should outright ban such discussions. Ultimately consensus can change. If someone brings some new argument that we collectively haven't heard before then it deserves to be heard. However recycling with no changes isn't helpful. Canterbury Tail talk 12:22, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Can we reprimand those making baseless accusations of bias against editors here at least? I’m also sick of their “colourful” language whenever they lodge a complaint. Nationalist furore is annoying as fuck. 2A00:23C4:3E08:4000:A822:5D3B:7A4B:4451 (talk) 01:13, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Where is GDP?

In template, nothing about GDP and GDP (PPP), can I add? Dinesh (talk) 07:06, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Soccer

The main text properly calls soccer by the name used by the vast majority in Ireland but it’s wrong in the summary / introduction. No one in the Republic, and not so many in the North, calls it “association football.” Seriously... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.220.239.196 (talk) 15:32, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Population Rank is wrong

Ireland is not number 19, but number 122.

https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependencies_by_population

It is only 19 in rank of Islands — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.225.54.242 (talk) 21:09, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Indeed you are correct but if you click on the blue linked text "Population rank" to the left of the text "19th" it brings you to List of islands by population, where it is, surprise, surprise, 19th. ww2censor (talk) 22:05, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Earliest Human History

The section "Prehistoric Ireland" says Until recently, the earliest evidence of human presence in Ireland was dated at 12,500 years ago, demonstrated by a butchered bear bone found in a cave in County Clare.[17] Since 2021, the earliest evidence of human presence in Ireland is dated to 33,000 years ago.[18]" but then "Emergence of Celtic Ireland" says "The National Museum of Ireland have on display two 300,000 - 400,000 year-old stone tools which were found in Ireland, one on Inishmore island, Co Galway and the other at Mell Co Louth, just 9 km from Newgrange.[37]"

This is a difference of 270,000 years or more - how can both be true? Prymal (talk) 22:18, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Both are island or coastal. Is it possible that there is question as to whether the stone tools were products of human habitation of Ireland, as opposed to washed up from elsewhere? --OuroborosCobra (talk) 22:24, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

The NMI claim fails verification, though - it's just a link to the landing page on the NMI website, for their collections. Poking around the website, we're told the find in Mell was likely brought to Ireland on an ice-sheet; and further, it's dated to only "before 70,000 years ago", not 300,000-400,000 years ago. I'll remove the latter sentence. Good catch! Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:11, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

And in deleting that, I noted the photograph in that section, which apparently was taken in the NMI and shows the captions under a flint axe and "flake" (I'd call it a chunk myself!) that make the 300,000 - 400,000 year-old claim. Curious and curiouser... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 12:19, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2021

The term ‘British Isles’ is consider offensive to Irish Nationalists and it is unnecessary in the context used. Please remove the sentences it appears in as the do not contribute in any meaning way to the topic. 212.129.82.247 (talk) 09:16, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done - Please see multiple previous discussions - no new arguments have been put forward. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:20, 5 July 2021 (UTC)

Removal of GDP table

I've removed the following GDP table from the article:

Area	Population	Country	City	2012 GDP €	GDP per person €	2014 GDP €	GDP per person €
Dublin Region	1,350,000	ROI	Dublin	€72.4 bn	€57,200	€87.238 bn	€68,208
South-West Region	670,000	ROI	Cork	€32.3 bn	€48,500	€33.745 bn	€50,544
Greater Belfast	720,000	NI	Belfast	€20.9 bn	€33,550	€22.153 bn	€34,850
West Region	454,000	ROI	Galway	€13.8 bn	€31,500	€13.37 bn	€29,881
Mid-West Region	383,000	ROI	Limerick	€11.4 bn	€30,300	€12.116 bn	€31,792
South-East Region	510,000	ROI	Waterford	€12.8 bn	€25,600	€14.044 bn	€28,094
Mid-East Region	558,000	ROI	Bray	€13.3 bn	€24,700	€16.024 bn	€30,033
Border Region	519,000	ROI	Drogheda	€10.7 bn	€21,100	€10.452 bn	€20,205
East of Northern Ireland	430,000	NI	Ballymena	€9.5 bn	€20,300	€10.793 bn	€24,100
Midlands Region	290,000	ROI	Athlone	€5.7 bn	€20,100	€6.172 bn	€21,753
West and South of Northern Ireland	400,000	NI	Newry	€8.4 bn	€19,300	€5.849 bn	€20,100
North of Northern Ireland	280,000	NI	Derry	€5.5 bn	€18,400	€9.283 bn	€22,000
Total	6.6 m			€216.7 bn		€241 bn

It clearly has a lot of moving parts and there isn't enough activity on this article / interest in this topic to keep it regularly updated (last change was in 2014). Not only are the GDP figures wildly outdated (2012), but the regions they correspond to have also changed and will likely do so again on a semi-regular basis (think 2018, Mid-East, Border, Mid-West, South-East all changed boundaries).

I also feel the smaller table that was above it (which I updated recently) more or less illustrates the info, but is a much less onerous task to keep up to date.

--Jacobfrid (talk) 08:11, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Do I notice the grand total of zero (0) sources? The Banner talk 08:55, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

It had a eurostat ref that is saved on Wayback Machine (see below), but I personally haven't been able to view it.

--Jacobfrid (talk) 09:07, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

"session invalid". But before this table is restored in anyway (preferably updated) it should be properly sourced. The Banner talk 09:21, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 7 July 2021

The title of the article should be "Ireland (Island)" so as not to be confused with the article for Ireland the country. Cashew.wheel (talk) 08:43, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done See the prominent notice at the top of the page. Not up for discussion here. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 09:22, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 September 2021

The population for Dublin is incorrect, it stands at 1,173,179. Jack0182 (talk) 15:56, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

. Jack0182 (talk) 15:57, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:04, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2021

Stated to be the 12th most populous country. Ireland is the 12th most populous island, and the 122nd most populous country. 184.98.34.16 (talk) 00:31, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. I'm not seeing where our article says 12th most populous. The infobox gives its population ranking as 19th, and this links to List of islands by population. Cannolis (talk) 02:12, 26 September 2021 (UTC)

Population figures are outdated and should be changed.

The population of the Republic of Ireland is over 5 million as of 2021 not 4.8 million in 2016. I think it's time for an update. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.43.184.169 (talk • contribs) 20:12, 2 September 2021

The 2016 figures are the actual official census statistics while the 5+ million figure is just a current estimate. 21:09, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

The 'Cities and towns by populations' table is both outdated, and wrong by any recent date.

For example, the population of Bangor (Down) population places it in the top 10 on the island (61,011 in the 2011 census - https://www.ninis2.nisra.gov.uk/public/AreaProfileReportViewer.aspx?FromAPAddressMulipleRecords=Bangor@Exact%20match%20of%20location%20name:%20@Exact%20Match%20Of%20Location%20Name:%20%20Bangor@23? ) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.79.129.86 (talk) 04:51, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 August 2021

British ISLEs is not recognised in Ireland and the terminology should be changed 89.19.67.60 (talk) 23:23, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 23:36, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

I would suggest "The Celtic Isles", as each island, and each of the countries, are of Celtic origin, whether that be Brythonic, Gaelic, etc.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. The Banner talk 17:17, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 December 2021

Please remove the insulting words British' Isles" from anything that includes Ireland. 81.202.120.2 (talk) 17:52, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. —Sirdog (talk) 18:27, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree that the use of 'British Isles' is inappropriate due to the fact that 50% of the governments that have jurisdiction in the area do not recognise the term. The government that doesn't recognise the term 'British Isles' also makes up roughly 66% of the island of Ireland, the island in question here. Proof of which can be seen here: http://www.oireachtas-debates.gov.ie/D/0606/D.0606.200509280360.html HaussmannHouse (talk) 11:15, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

This has been discussed extensively at the talk page of British Isles and the controversy has its own article British Isles naming dispute. Go there if you want to reach a new consensus but having the same discussion at a third talk page is not appropriate for clarity and ease of editors wanting to contribute to a discussion. Robynthehode (talk) 16:28, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I only want to discuss its relativity to this page though. It's not recognised in Ireland therefore shouldn't apply to the Irish page. I don't think it should be changed anywhere else because it is a recognised term in Britain. So I'm not sure how helpful it would be to move this conversation elsewhere? If its necessary however I will of course. Thanks. HaussmannHouse (talk) 01:03, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

But it is not a point for this page. We follow the world, not lead the way. Please convince the British Government and the international geographic community that the name must be changed. When the population agrees and the name is changing in everyday use, then we will follow.The Banner talk 01:11, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Well actually this is the point of this talk page, to suggest and discuss improvements. Please do not attempt to start an argument this can be talked about without resorting to to sarcasm such as suggesting I should convince the British government to change the name. Anyways no convincing is needed, the Irish government already doesn't recognise the name, as such I believe the Wikipedia page for Ireland should be changed accordingly. HaussmannHouse (talk) 01:25, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

No, you are wrong. Your discussion belongs to British Isles naming dispute, as stated before. The Banner talk 11:45, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Why would I bring up an issue that is to do with this article on a different article's talk page? HaussmannHouse (talk) 19:48, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Because you do not want to listen to honest advice? The Banner talk 22:23, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

Economy section - lack of industry coverage

There is an odd imbalance in this section, with one of Ireland's actual major industries covered, plus a supply aspect - energy. But where are the sections on Food and Agriculture, Pharmaceuticals, IT (software, chips, services), and so on...? SeoR (talk) 12:47, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 January 2022

In the Energy section, please change "the island operates for some time" to "the island has operated for some time". Grammatical correction. 2001:BB6:4713:4858:8CC3:610A:520E:EB0B (talk) 11:20, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

 Done Thanks! hemantha (brief) 11:36, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Shannon Estuary

Is there a reason why the Shannon Estuary is shown in some maps and not others? M.Bitton (talk) 15:44, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

• I can see two maps (but correct me if there are more). They were both created by @SkateTier: who is now aware of this question. Bazza (talk) 16:31, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

  Sadly, it looks like they left the project years ago. M.Bitton (talk) 19:51, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 February 2022

212.129.75.116 (talk) 10:23, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Ireland is NOT part of the British Isles, it is an independent Country!

 Not done: This article is about the island. The British Isles also refers to the geographic islands Cannolis (talk) 10:37, 27 February 2022 (UTC)

Where is it

Ireland 97.119.185.70 (talk) 00:48, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

In Ireland. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 02:51, 6 March 2022 (UTC)

Why is this article under UK geography articles?

I'm just genuinely asking why? We're not part of the UK. blueskies (talk) 19:34, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

@Aleeza2018: Who is "we"? Read the first sentence of the article and you'll discover that it's about the island of Ireland, not Ireland. Read the second paragraph and you'll discover that 1/6 the island is in the United Kingdom. Bazza (talk) 20:04, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Because this is about the island of Ireland, not the country of Ireland. Part of the island of Ireland, namely Northern Ireland, is part of the United Kingdom. Canterbury Tail talk 20:05, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

thx blueskies (talk) 20:10, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

Brewing in the Bronze Age.

I’m new to commenting off wiki pages so apologies if I am missing anything commonly understood, however the page indicates that the Bronze Age brought with it many technologies including brewing. Brewing has been traced back to Sumerian cultures as far back as 10,000 BC. Dfeerst (talk) 02:58, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

That is quite possible. But the bronze age started not everywhere at the same time. So the introduction of brewing in Ireland could have happened in the Bronze Age in Ireland, several hundred years after brewing was invented by the Sumerians. It does not state that it was invented by the inhabitants of Ireland, just introduced. The Banner talk 08:50, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

Name: Country vs. Island

In the naming rules, it states that a common name should be used for the article title. I propose that this article be changed to "Ireland" and have the article about the island as a whole "Ireland (island)" More often than not, when people say "Ireland", they are most likely referring to the independent nation in the European Union. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zhyena28 (talk • contribs) 13:08, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Per ArbCom and the note at the top of the page, this discussion must take place at [[5]], where there is a current active discussion. Canterbury Tail talk 13:11, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The country of Ireland is not United Kingdom, as posted in the article.

The country of Ireland is not United Kingdom, as posted in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chamychester (talk • contribs) 10:12, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Chamychester: This article is about the island of Ireland, not about the independent Irish state and is totally accurate. So, on the island there are 6 counties that are currently part of the United Kingdom. After reading this article please read Republic of Ireland where you will see the statement that it shares its only land border with Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom. ww2censor (talk) 10:34, 20 April 2022 (UTC)

Remove the prefix "Republic of"

Remove the prefix "Republic Of" from the name of Ireland under the Administration section of the infobox. The name of the country is Ireland as per the Irish constitution. https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/cons/en/html#part2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cashew.wheel (talk • contribs) 15:01, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Not done per WP:IMOS. Where Northern Ireland is also being discussed use Republic of Ireland to avoid confusion with the island of Ireland. Additionally per the Republic of Ireland Act 1948, the term Republic of Ireland is an accepted, and official, description of the state. Canterbury Tail talk 15:06, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

The ROI Act definition of the description does not supercede the name defined in the constitution. Thank you for your reference of WP:IMOS, there is an exception where the state forms a major component of the topic, in this case within the context of the infobox. Additionally as a link "the name of the state should be pipelinked as [ [ Republic of Ireland|Ireland ] ]". Cashew.wheel (talk) 19:20, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Well Wikipedia isn't bound by the Irish constitution, and even the Irish government uses Republic of Ireland as a natural disambiguator at times. Heck it's been shown to bizarrely use Southern Ireland occasionally for some really odd reason I can't fathom. Additionally there are very few countries in the world that exist on Wikipedia at, or are referenced as, the name of their country, Ireland isn't in any way unique or even uncommon. Canterbury Tail talk 20:48, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the time and effort you put in to replying and editing. It would be good to keep the discussion open a bit longer in case there are others opinions. Cashew.wheel (talk) 22:11, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Continuation

Why has "Republic of" not been removed from the Administration of section. It is offensive. The only justification in the discussion is that Wikipedia is not bound by the Irish constitution. Seriously? Fix it. Get the name of my country correct. Disambiguate in a way that is not offensive to an entire nation. 84.203.116.209 (talk) 12:47, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Serious question, how can it be offensive if it is the official description of the country enshrined in law, used by the government and is the name of the national football team? Canterbury Tail talk 12:52, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@Canterbury Tail Use of "Republic Of Ireland", in place of the actual name of the country, has historically been in the context of attempts to de-legitimize and undermine the sovereign decisions of the state by anti-Irish elements. Hence Wikipedia perpetuating the fallacy is offensive.

Just because the official description is "Sparkling Soft Drink with Vegetable Extracts", that's no justification to not call Coca-Cola by it's real name when disambiguating it from other colas.

Also to clarify the name of the Irish national association football team, it was FIFA that imposed the name "Republic Of Ireland" on the team in 1953. Cashew.wheel (talk) 20:18, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

This topic is under active discussion at WP:IECOLL where all constructive input is welcome. Cashew.wheel (talk) 19:41, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

The hyperbole - it hurts! 🤣🤣 Seriously, rein it in. And don't presume to speak for an entire nation! 🤨🙄 Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:03, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Second paragraph

Should

Geopolitically, Ireland is divided between the Republic of Ireland (officially named Ireland), which covers five-sixths of the island, and Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom. In 2011, the population of the entire island was about 6.6 million, ranking it the second-most populous island in Europe after Great Britain. As of 2016, 4.8 million lived in the Republic of Ireland, and 1.8 million in Northern Ireland.[5]

become

Geopolitically, Ireland is divided between the Republic of Ireland (officially named Ireland), which covers five-sixths of the island, and Northern Ireland, which is part of the United Kingdom. The population of the entire island is just over 7 million, with 5.1 million living in the Republic of Ireland and 1.9 million in Northern Ireland, ranking it the second-most populous island in Europe after Great Britain.[5] 78.16.170.152 (talk) 15:34, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Good suggestion, the most recent census data has been released so the paragraph should be updated. Cashew.wheel (talk) 09:23, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 July 2022

Remove Africans from the demographics section--because the only "significant influences on Irish culture" they have added is more crime and chaos. Thanks. 47.23.177.234 (talk) 19:48, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: for obvious reasons. Princess Persnickety (talk) 20:37, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Perhaps a warning to the IP not to make such remarks? --Tærkast (Discuss) 21:30, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Since it's an IP I suspect the time has passed, and they likely wouldn't have seen it anyway. However if I see this again I'm blocking instantly. A clear case of "tell us you're a racist without saying you're a racist". Canterbury Tail talk 00:13, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Guy's scared of an r-word lmao 47.23.177.234 (talk) 19:40, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Glad to see this racist attitude is quickly rebutted. Another example of why only Registered Users should be allowed to Edit!Bibby (talk) 22:43, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Not so fast man, remember IP editors are human too. FishandChipper 🐟🍟 16:50, 23 August 2022 (UTC)